Golf Memberships

First Up

downthemiddle wrote: »

Looking at the figures you are talking about less than 2% of golf clubs offering the type of membership that some people seem to think is threatening the future of Irish golf. Looking at the membership figures in this clubs approximately 2.66 % of golfers registered with the GUI avail of this type of membership. This thread is not based on fact but rather the strong prejudice of a small number of posters.

So it doesn't matter because it is a small (for now) number of clubs and players? At what point would it start to matter? When it hits 5%? 10%? 20%?. When a legit, member funded club folds because its membership offer can't compete with the cheap "open" market facilitated by the clubs abusing their GUI affiliation and getting a free ride by flogging handicaps?
Do let us know when you think fairness and a level playing field should start to kick in.

Nick the slasher Mcgurk

First Up wrote: »

So it doesn't matter because it is a small (for now) number of clubs and players? At what point would it start to matter? When it hits 5%? 10%? 20%?. When a legit, member funded club folds because its membership offer can't compete with the cheap "open" market facilitated by the clubs abusing their GUI affiliation and getting a free ride by flogging handicaps?
Do let us know when you think fairness and a level playing field should start to kick in.

Capitalism does not support an equal playing field . Those who adapt survive longterm.
Unfortunately fairness has absolutely nothing to do with it either, if there is a cheaper alternative available then people will exploit it - its human nature im afraid. Its why pennys sells 100,000 t-shirts every summer and M&S 1000.

It may not suit you or your beliefs but as long as your (or anybodys) club will let a "parasite" distant member play on it during an open comp then the blame for its demise lies solely in the hands of that clubs committee.

You cannot blame somebody and ridicule them simply because you don't like how they legally go about their business . I do believe a distant member of any club is an equal member of the GUI as the captain of any established club in the land.

downthemiddle

First Up wrote: »

So it doesn't matter because it is a small (for now) number of clubs and players? At what point would it start to matter? When it hits 5%? 10%? 20%?. When a legit, member funded club folds because its membership offer can't compete with the cheap "open" market facilitated by the clubs abusing their GUI affiliation and getting a free ride by flogging handicaps?
Do let us know when you think fairness and a level playing field should start to kick in.

Legit clubs have folded in case it has escaped your notice and they will continue to fold if they fail to adapt to the market.

BTW what is your definition of a legit club?

BenEadir

First Up wrote: »

So it doesn't matter because it is a small (for now) number of clubs and players? At what point would it start to matter? When it hits 5%? 10%? 20%?. When a legit, member funded club folds because its membership offer can't compete with the cheap "open" market facilitated by the clubs abusing their GUI affiliation and getting a free ride by flogging handicaps?
Do let us know when you think fairness and a level playing field should start to kick in.

If there is abuse of the rules taking place it is up to the GUI to correct that. As long as clubs are operating within the rules they are not abusing anything. They are adapting to survive.

If distance membership is becoming a real (as opposed to perceived) problem the GUI can alter the rules. After all, 98% of clubs affiliated to the GUI should be able to stamp out the 2% who are causing the problem, if there is a problem.

If expensive clubs in South Dublin (expensive to run and expensive to be a members as a result) feel there is a cohort of people using distance membership as a substitute to play their course via regular open competitions they can alter the number of open competitions available, change open comps to less popular times, make open comps only available to members of a selected list of clubs within X miles of them etc etc.

It shouldn't be difficult to deal with this problem if in fact there is any evidence (real evidence) to support the contention that clubs are actually losing people to distance membership who would otherwise be prepared to be full or 5 day members.

If distance membership is primarily being used by people who either can't afford to be full or 5 day members of their local club or simply don't play enough golf to justify being a full or 5 day member (like my friend) then in economic terms the subs they are paying to the distance membership club and the fees they are paying to enter the odd open are all additional marginal income which would otherwise be lost to the game of golf. there may be the exception who milks/abuses the situation but for every one of them you have someone like my friend who simply paid €200 to a club and didn't hit a single ball

First Up

downthemiddle wrote: »

Legit clubs have folded in case it has escaped your notice and they will continue to fold if they fail to adapt to the market.

BTW what is your definition of a legit club?

A club that takes in members for the purpose of playing golf there.

leonards

First Up wrote: »

A club that takes in members for the purpose of playing golf there.

How many times should they have to play for you to be happy ?

SaveOurLyric

leonards wrote: »

How many times should they have to play for you to be happy ?

80 or 90% of whatever golf they play in a year.
A few opens, holiday golf, or interclub competition golf playing courses other than their home one being the occasional novelty, not the norm.

BenEadir

First Up wrote: »

A club that takes in members for the purpose of playing golf there.

That's like blaming a knife manufacturer because someone who purchases it's product uses it for something it wasn't intended and kills someone. It's not the fault of the clubs offering distance membership that some members use it as a flag of convenience for constantly playing opens in their local club is it? It's the individual abusing the legit distance membership arrangement who you should be focusing your anger on, assuming that is that such people even exist in the kind of numbers that would be required to have an actual commercial impact on the membership of any failing club.

FixdePitchmark

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

80 or 90% of whatever golf they play in a year.
A few opens, holiday golf, or interclub competition golf playing courses other than their home one being the occasional novelty, not the norm.

SOL - are you being sarcastic

Lads - I can go play anywhere I want , when I want.

Are we seriously going down this route.

I don't think someone is a "real" golfer if they are playing 90 % of their golf at their home club, but that is subjective.

First Up

Nick the slasher Mcgurk wrote: »

Capitalism does not support an equal playing field . Those who adapt survive longterm.
Unfortunately fairness has absolutely nothing to do with it either, if there is a cheaper alternative available then people will exploit it - its human nature im afraid. Its why pennys sells 100,000 t-shirts every summer and M&S 1000.

It may not suit you or your beliefs but as long as your (or anybodys) club will let a "parasite" distant member play on it during an open comp then the blame for its demise lies solely in the hands of that clubs committee.

You cannot blame somebody and ridicule them simply because you don't like how they legally go about their business . I do believe a distant member of any club is an equal member of the GUI as the captain of any established club in the land.

A valid analogy would be for M/S to be required to accept a Pennys T shirt in exchange for one of theirs.

Capitalism and the free market, like all effective social and economic activity operate within rules. If those rules are being broken or bent, the system is undermined and if unchecked can collapse. The golden eggs don't lay themselves, so be careful how much you to try to extract from those golden geese.

You are correct that the solution has to be action by the GUI and the legit clubs. Watch this space.

First Up

leonards wrote: »

How many times should they have to play for you to be happy ?

I don't care, but their GUI status and reciprocal rights should reflect it. The 3 cards for a travelling handicap is a start.

Kingswood Rover

First Up wrote: »

Expensive does not necessarily mean exclusive but if the idea that people should pay a fair price for what they get makes you ill, your constitution is in as poor shape as your value system.

My value system is not based around money and my constitution is fine from all the exercise playing golf. Happy new year First up.

FixdePitchmark

First Up wrote: »

A valid analogy would be for M/S to be required to accept a Pennys T shirt in exchange for one of theirs.

Capitalism and the free market, like all effective social and economic activity operate within rules. If those rules are being broken or bent, the system is undermined and if unchecked can collapse. The golden eggs don't lay themselves, so be careful how much you to try to extract from those golden geese.

You are correct that the solution has to be action by the GUI and the legit clubs. Watch this space.

First up - at this stage we can't be watching this space - any hints . Is the plan like this for lads that don't fit ?

SaveOurLyric

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

SOL - are you being sarcastic

Lads - I can go play anywhere I want , when I want.

Are we seriously going down this route.

I don't think someone is a "real" golfer if they are playing 90 % of their golf at their home club, but that is subjective.

No sarcasm at all. (I will excuse you for asking though. I may have used that mode now and again ).

I was answering the question in the context of the structure of paying for golf in Ireland today. The traditional method of your home club sub paying for the bulk of your golf + occasional greenfees or opens on top of that (as a distinctly minority component) worked. And we still today have the bulk of this model striving to keep the clubs we have solvent and playable. The recent oversupply of courses, and easycome-easygo golfers has led to a severe oversupply of courses with desperate measures being employed to stay open. The distance member and opens comps to beat the band available every day of the weak has fractured this model. And is unsustainable on its present course.
An altogether different model may be possible. And may be evolving in front of our eyes. But opens at €15 a pop are not going to keep the courses we know in business for too long.

(Of course you can play where you wish. But there are consequences...).

downthemiddle

First Up wrote: »

You are correct that the solution has to be action by the GUI and the legit clubs. Watch this space.

Surely all clubs affiliated to the GUI are legit clubs.

Kingswood Rover

First Up wrote: »

So it doesn't matter because it is a small (for now) number of clubs and players? At what point would it start to matter? When it hits 5%? 10%? 20%?. When a legit, member funded club folds because its membership offer can't compete with the cheap "open" market facilitated by the clubs abusing their GUI affiliation and getting a free ride by flogging handicaps?
Do let us know when you think fairness and a level playing field should start to kick in.

Legit club, abusing GUI affiliation ah jaysus first up distance memberships are not a threat to golf it is the golf itself stuck in the past and while i am at it this lark of having car parking spaces for Captains, Presidents, Hon Secs is also tripe and should be done away with.

Nick the slasher Mcgurk

First Up wrote: »

A valid analogy would be for M/S to be required to accept a Pennys T shirt in exchange for one of theirs.

Errr ? No , that is called communism . Actually that would explain a lot of your posts if that is your understanding of basic economics .

SaveOurLyric

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

while i am at it this lark of having car parking spaces for Captains, Presidents, Hon Secs is also tripe and should be done away with.

Yeh. Thats what has Irish golf clubs to the sorry state they are in.

FixdePitchmark

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

No sarcasm at all. (I will excuse you for asking though. I may have used that mode now and again ).

I was answering the question in the context of the structure of paying for golf in Ireland today. The traditional method of your home club sub paying for the bulk of your golf + occasional greenfees or opens on top of that (as a distinctly minority component) worked. And we still today have the bulk of this model striving to keep the clubs we have solvent and playable. The recent oversupply of courses, and easycome-easygo golfers has led to a severe oversupply of courses with desperate measures being employed to stay open. The distance member and opens comps to beat the band available every day of the weak has fractured this model. And is unsustainable on its present course.
An altogether different model may be possible. And may be evolving in front of our eyes. But opens at €15 a pop are not going to keep the courses we know in business for too long.

(Of course you can play where you wish. But there are consequences...).

Well it depends ?

And nobody has provided good figures.

Most of these 15 euros are additional golfing expenditure ?
They are guys from so called "legit" clubs. I agree they are very cheap - I've made that point earlier. It does seem particularly unfair if these clubs are not paying back the cost of the club / crazy clubhouses - or are subsidised in some way. More frustrating as other have said , if this club is next door or 7 fields away.

If more and more golfers spend more and more money --- what is the problem.

More potential golfers provide greater opportunity for progression and additional golf spending.

If everyone went down this route (open route) it is another days debate - but you would have to see real figures at this stage of the debate.

Still - participation is key . Golf is just getting into a man eat man, world war 1 like scenario. Golfer v golfer , club v club.

It seems nobody is stepping back and going - where are we going with the sport. Everyone seems too busy to get a good time slot for their own 4 ball they play with, every week on Saturday at 836 hrs.

I'd have more admiration for lads travelling around the country , exploring new clubs, meeting people from different backgrounds, different locations , meeting great people. I've had some of my best days on a course in opens. Yet some of the most unfriendly experiences have been in this much heralded legit club situations.

Sticking to your own 4 ball - the same round - the same course - the same lads - same clubhouse , every week. It is not for everyone , and I've yet to be convinced it is the best thing for the sport.

Yes the debate about how golf is going is very important, but you could fool yourself thinking the "legit" clubs are perfect , I've seen both sides, they are not.

SaveOurLyric

Nick the slasher Mcgurk wrote: »

Errr ? No , that is called communism . Actually that would explain a lot of your posts if that is your understanding of basic economics .

Errr ? No. FirstUps analogy is correct. The cheapo dstance membership is 'traded' to play on a more expensive course. But, the clubs themselves are to blame for allowing this too. I do find it off that they the official clubs/GUI channel only tackled the demand side of this unbalanced market. They did nothing to tackle the point that they are underselling their own open comps. The true price of playing in one should be €40-50 for a nothing special club. But no one wants to break this 'below cost selling' because it is bringing precious cashflow at the moment.
But its like drowing men. Each is trying to save himself by climbing on the man beside him.

SaveOurLyric

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

If more and more golfers spend more and more money --- what is the problem.

This is the too-simplistic way that many clubs are looking at it. Ostensibly it is more money. But overall, and in the longer term it is not. It is enabling people to play golf without paying the true price. So overall (through golfers no longer playing in the opens that used to charge them 25, or forcing those clubs to drop their prices also, or golfer not taking out a membership at all, or a distance one, etc) the income is down. And clubs cannot pay their way. Or are forced to reduce standards (its very easy to cut course expenditure: reduce pesticides, weedkillers, stop sanding programmes, reduce the number of cuts/week, stop thinning the trees and rough, stop hollow coring etc - but a price will be paid in course quality, not immediately (so everything looks OK), but in time).

downthemiddle

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

The true price of playing in one should be €40-50 for a nothing special club.

How did you come up with this figure?
How do you define a nothing special club and for that matter a "special" club?

SaveOurLyric

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Sticking to your own 4 ball - the same round - the same course - the same lads - same clubhouse , every week. It is not for everyone , and I've yet to be convinced it is the best thing for the sport.

It may not be. All people (even when golf in Ireland was a more upper income passtime than today) could afford in the past was to by and large play the same course over an over. But yes, times have changed, and people are more used to, and can afford to drive an hour or two to sample a new course. But the pricing model has not changed if this is indeed the 2015 Golfers demand. And so there is (not through any deviousness on behalf of those doing so) a disconnect between what some are paying for their golf these days, and what they are really taking from the facilities they play. Which makes an already stressed sport of facility over supply, golfers under recessionary pressures, and a significant emmigration of our youth, under even more pressure.


(on the issue of other courses and finding the time to play - surely playing your nearest course over and over makes golf more family/busy-life friendly than driving distances).

FixdePitchmark

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

This is the too-simplistic way that many clubs are looking at it. Ostensibly it is more money. But overall, and in the longer term it is not. It is enabling people to play golf without paying the true price. So overall (through golfers no longer playing in the opens that used to charge them 25, or forcing those clubs to drop their prices also, or golfer not taking out a membership at all, or a distance one, etc) the income is down. And clubs cannot pay their way. Or are forced to reduce standards (its very easy to cut course expenditure: reduce pesticides, weedkillers, stop sanding programmes, reduce the number of cuts/week, stop thinning the trees and rough, stop hollow coring etc - but a price will be paid in course quality, not immediately (so everything looks OK), but in time).

No - I have agreed with that.

The cost seems ridiculously low. And undoubtedly the market has been exposed to below cost selling.

Other clubs exposed to below cost selling are put in danger. The market is not fair. Agree with that.

I think the debate is complex and multifaceted - here has been a bit blinded by one aspect.

It is certainly not an easy one to resolve. So much in the mix.

downthemiddle

Nick the slasher Mcgurk wrote: »

.

Therefore might i suggest that gui member golfers be required to play at least 10 single opens at Other clubs in a calendar year to give everybody a more fair and accurate assessment of handicap?

I think you are on to something there.

SaveOurLyric

downthemiddle wrote: »

How did you come up with this figure?
How do you define a nothing special club and for that matter a "special" club?

Very roughly. When clubs in Ireland were sustainable (6+ years ago). Green fees for the centre 70% percentile (ie disregard the cheapest 15% and dearest 15% of courses in Ireland) of courses were €30-€40 a round. Add in the cost of a competition = roughly the cost of playing a competition on a course where you are not a member. (Note that many clubs have kept their headline greenfee at this level in recent years - deluding themselves that they havent really reduced it. But they have, by increase the number of opens). Opens were traditionally a rarity. In some cases literally only a single 'open week' in a year. Generally most associated with holiday courses in the summer time. But pretty prevalent. Then add in a couple of public holiday opens. A long weekend one. Opens for a members guests. Then the flood gates opened.

Nothing special = those 70%. Special = those whose finances will never struggle due to priviledged geography, membership wealth profile, or course renown attracting visitors from all over the world.

FixdePitchmark

SOL - on the life / golf balance.

I think Dublin is particularly exposed to the travelling golfer phenomena. There 15 - 20 courses within 20 minutes of most.

Also - traditional courses are not as flexible - so a Tuesday - Ladies day, Wednesday a mixed Senior open, Friday a bloody society :eek::D

A major selling point of the travelling golfer - is you can get the comp you want every day.

Said earlier - it is a great product for a certain type of golfer.

We shouldn't get into the handicap thing, but agree , I think many golfers fool themselves with their handicap playing the one course.

Not to mention - it would bore the hell out of me.

To sum up - these so called nomadic golfers , often use opens for reasons not covered here yet. It meets other life needs. Can sometimes be a closer course than their home one.

GreeBo

Slicemeister wrote: »

This'll probably end the way your debates do where you disagree with a poster, so I'll step out before you abuse your mod powers again.

One of us is making points in the debate, the other is throwing their toys out of the pram.
If you can't defend your point that's fine, dont hide that behind some nonsense reply though.


Report a post you have a problem with.

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

Absolutely. I was lucky enough to play a bit of golf on a few courses in Sweden a few years ago, and the number of juniors playing was incredible. All wearing their multi coloured J Lindberg and Peak Performance gear too ! Interestingly enough the boys and girls all played and practiced together and there seemed to be a much more inclusive vibe about the whole thing. I know the GUI do a good job in a lot of areas, but I think they could look also at other unions who have maybe a more "modern" outlook on things.
Golf in Ireland still suffers from stereotyping IMHO, the whole "dinner jacket and tie" thing, and I suspect a lot of parents who don't play golf wouldn't even consider it a sport for their children because of preconceived notions about clubs. With Rory's enthusiasm for kids charities etc, I'm sure he (and Nike) could be persuaded to be part of a campaign to increase the numbers taking up the sport, especially with the Olympics not a million miles away.

I know the gui ran an initiative a few years ago, can't remember the name of it, but the idea was for local juniors to be allowed to join local clubs regardless of whether their father was a member, I'd love to know how successful or not it actually was.

Any club I know has juvenile members who try to move to junior and then to full, its not by any means automatic.
Any weekend my club is full of kids from 5 -15 lining up practicing at the range or dragging caddy cars that are taller than them around the course.
I dont think any of that has anything to do with the GUI.
What could the GUI do, bring everyone who wants to play out to Carton House for a free round?
Golf courses are the ones with the facilities to play golf, hence they are the ones that grow the game.
The GUI plays their part with the elite amateurs and those that make it to the professional ranks, thats the best way for them to promote the game.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Look golf is not going to be like some of the other sports , it just doesn't have that team fun environment required for young kids.
We are not even targeting adults but.

Even look at Triathlon Ireland - a far more expensive sport and the participation by the age profile, golf needs.
Over 7000 likes

Tag Rugby Over 7000 likes
Friends of Dublin hurling 6000 likes
Swim Ireland 3800 likes
Irish Amateur Boxing 6439 Likes
Canoeing Ireland 3378 likes

I know Facebook likes are a rubbish stat - but an interesting little insight to the level of activity that the other sports have generated.

I just think Golf should be miles ahead of some of the sports above - we have the world number 1 from the same Union.

Likes on Facebook to determine an organisations success?
https://www.gui.ie/home/resources/about-us
Thats what the GUI exists for, they are not some advertising agency for golf.
Also, Triathlon Ireland has 6000 members (their latest figures available)
I think the GUI is doing a little better than that. (~25 times better at last count) especially considering the barrier to entry for a triathlon is being able to get your hands on a bicycle for a couple of hours.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

?

Is Irish Golf a bit selfish ?
Once our club and members are doing well that is all that maters.

Are Irish golfers a bit selfish ?
Is this a hangover from the Celtic Tiger. Once my golf is fine , I'm happy.

Who else would you suggest they try to keep happy other than Irish golf clubs and their members?

First Up wrote: »

As I understand it, junior golf in Sweden operates on the basis that a junior membership is easy but it doesn't automatically translate into adult membership. I know a number of clubs here doing the same, with or without GUI involvement.
It is a good way to promote the game at junior level and seems to work in Sweden which also has a high level of family and female golf activity. I suspect the nature of society has something to do with it as well but golf in Sweden ain't cheap and nothing in their model suggests that popularity has anything to do with price.

Exactly, as above plenty of Irish clubs operate in the exact same way.
Sweden has 460 golf courses with 460,000 members.
I picked a random club (Haverdals), greenfee is €50, entrance of €300 and then its €500 a year subs.
Not exactly rock bottom golf imo.

downthemiddle wrote: »

Looking at the clubs named in the thread
Slievenamon
Scarke
Ring of Kerry
Blessington Lakes
Allowing for an equal number of other clubs that may offer similar membership you are looking at a maximum of 8 clubs out of 430 i.e. less than 2%.
There are 150,000 members registered with the GUI in the latest figures I can find. Allowing for 4,000 members in these clubs availing of these deals, a figure which is in all probability an exaggeration, you are looking at 2.66%.
If you consider that there are quite a number of these members who like your friend play little or no golf we are talking about a tiny number of golfers who are "abusing" the system.

OK, so using your own numbers, 8 clubs have 4,000 distance members, so 500 distance members each.
Even if you are way off, lets say its half as many, thats still 250 members in each club. You dont think thats simply selling GUI handicap certs?
One wonders what they will do if all 500 turn up for a game some day...

Nick the slasher Mcgurk wrote: »

I believe the more you play a course the easier it becomes so thus your scoring on that one course gets better and your handicap lowers on the back of playing just the 1 familiar course.

Therefore might i suggest that gui member golfers be required to play at least 10 single opens at Other clubs in a calendar year to give everybody a more fair and accurate assessment of handicap?

If what you say is true then people who play only in their own clubs are at a disadvantage to those who play a mixture of clubs, so whats the problem? Those who play with poor course management are also at a disadvantage, should you also enforce that to make handicaps more accurate?

GreeBo

Nick the slasher Mcgurk wrote: »

If not all sides agree with a debate moderator it usually falls upon said chap or "moderator" to step aside & hand over moderation or "refereeing" if you will to a colleague in order to continue the integrity of such debate.

Im very new to this , does it happen here too ?

Moderators are not here to have their opinions agreed with, they are purely here to moderate based on the forum charter and the sites general rules.

Any poster, moderator or otherwise is free to argue their point/side as long as they remain within the rules mentioned above.

There are also 3 moderators and 4 Category Moderators on this forum.

If you wish to discuss further, please take it to PM.

Kingswood Rover

First Up wrote: »

A club that takes in members for the purpose of playing golf there.

No a legit club is one which is a member of the GUI. We may not be legit in your eyes but hey i have a card that says i am a member of the golfing union of Ireland and their eyes are the ones that count.

GreeBo

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

No a legit club is one which is a member of the GUI. We may not be legit in your eyes but hey i have a card that says i am a member of the golfing union of Ireland and their eyes are the ones that count.

And so long as you play the stipulated number of rounds (currently 3) in your home club everyone else will also deem your card valid.

Kingswood Rover

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

This is the too-simplistic way that many clubs are looking at it. Ostensibly it is more money. But overall, and in the longer term it is not. It is enabling people to play golf without paying the true price. So overall (through golfers no longer playing in the opens that used to charge them 25, or forcing those clubs to drop their prices also, or golfer not taking out a membership at all, or a distance one, etc) the income is down. And clubs cannot pay their way. Or are forced to reduce standards (its very easy to cut course expenditure: reduce pesticides, weedkillers, stop sanding programmes, reduce the number of cuts/week, stop thinning the trees and rough, stop hollow coring etc - but a price will be paid in course quality, not immediately (so everything looks OK), but in time).

The true price is the price for golf is the price you pay for your annual sub, an open comp or a green fee. Not some arbitrary figure that people think it should be.

GreeBo

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

The true price is the price for golf is the price you pay for your annual sub, an open comp or a green fee. Not some arbitrary figure that people think it should be.

How is an open or green fee the true price when both are heavily subsidised by the members of the club you are playing in?

Kingswood Rover

GreeBo wrote: »

And so long as you play the stipulated number of rounds (currently 3) in your home club everyone else will also deem your card valid.

Not on this forum Greebo which is their right i may add.

GreeBo

Nick the slasher Mcgurk wrote: »

You seem to have wildly missed my point here , im not suggesting disadvantages be considered in the allocation of a true measure of a golfers ability in any way - if so id be the first to ask for .1 back after a night on the sauce !

No what i was eluding to was the fact that anybody can get a low handicap by playing the same course over & over again , id be quite miffed if i didnt play off a low single figure after a year or so of playing the same course constantly .

Heres the fault & therefore the problem , to get a true reflection of a golfers playing ability different tests must be presented , playing at least 5-10 different courses annually in handicap ranking opens is a way of gauging the level of a players real ability - ergo their "real" handicap if you will.

Its why every exam has more than one question , every driving test centre more than one test route , sure if we all knew the answers before we start it makes the whole thing pointless.

And likewise, your true ability/ handicap would be exposed if everyone was to play the exact same shot on every hole, after practicing the exact same amount of course.

Your statement that anybody can get low simply by playing the same course for a year shows a basic lack of experience.
each time you play the same course is the same experience I guess?

Every exam has more than one question, just like golf courses have more than one hole, not to mention each hole has more than one answer.
We do know the questions before we start, course map and yardage markers, guides a par and an index. It's not asecret, that's part of the beauty of the game, you know exactly what you need to do before you start.

Kingswood Rover

GreeBo wrote: »

How is an open or green fee the true price when both are heavily subsidised by the members of the club you are playing in?

Because thats the price people are asked to pay, There are not enough people playing golf and leaving to to the clubs themselves without a major co-ordinated promotion push from the union is not working. The market is there to double membership in this country just look at Sweden 400 or so clubs and 400000 members with a much colder winter climate than here. You say that your club is full of kids playing/practicing but how many of them have come from contact with the union rather than the members of your fine establishment. For the game to prosper Clubs need to get juniors that have no connection to the game involved, how this is achieved is another debate but i imagine a tie up with the physical education department of local secondary schools would be a start.

Slicemeister

There is no reason to advertise reported posts.

GreeBo

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

Because thats the price people are asked to pay, There are not enough people playing golf and leaving to to the clubs themselves without a major co-ordinated promotion push from the union is not working. The market is there to double membership in this country just look at Sweden 400 or so clubs and 400000 members with a much colder winter climate than here. You say that your club is full of kids playing/practicing but how many of them have come from contact with the union rather than the members of your fine establishment. For the game to prosper Clubs need to get juniors that have no connection to the game involved, how this is achieved is another debate but i imagine a tie up with the physical education department of local secondary schools would be a start.

Ok, the true cost rather than price.
however price is directly related to cost, despite some refusing to accept that.

Why would the GUI be sending players to play in my club? That's neither their remit not what they exist for.

in any case, few if any private clubs want abunch of kids turning up who have no connection to the club. It's not a field. The gui sponsors pay as you play courses, that's where kids go to pick up golf of they have no connection to a course.

I really don't see the problem with coming to the game through a connection, it's what happens in most sports.

Unless you want your levy massively increased and the purpose of the gui to shift I think you are expecting something unreasonable from them.

cairny

Why have so few clubs have closed? Even excluding the NAMA ones the hit rate has been pretty low as far as I can see, even those clubs with huge capital debts seem to be trundling along somehow.

I haven't really noticed a drop in course standards either ( again excluding Nama).

It does seem unsustainable long term but perhaps we underestimate the resilience of member owned and run clubs and the community spirit that goes with it?

Kingswood Rover

GreeBo wrote: »

Ok, the true cost rather than price.
however price is directly related to cost, despite some refusing to accept that.

Why would the GUI be sending players to play in my club? That's neither their remit not what they exist for.

in any case, few if any private clubs want abunch of kids turning up who have no connection to the club. It's not a field. The gui sponsors pay as you play courses, that's where kids go to pick up golf of they have no connection to a course.

I really don't see the problem with coming to the game through a connection, it's what happens in most sports.

Unless you want your levy massively increased and the purpose of the gui to shift I think you are expecting something unreasonable from them.

The GUI part of the solution "few private clubs want a bunch of kids turning up with no connection to the club, it is not a field" is one of the attitudes that is perpetuating/accelerating the decline in playing numbers that is the root of this distance dilemma. I never said there was a problem coming to a sport through a connection but i coach in schoolboy football and at u 8's starting off most people have no connection with the club when they bring their kids down to start playing. Now i know it is not as simple as that in golf but their needs to be better access to the game for people with no natural connection to it. There are no play as you play courses near a good percentage of the population. As for it being unreasonable for me to expect the body that governs the game to promote the development of it in young people thats the same as me saying it is unreasonable for me to expect the FAI to promote schoolboy football.

Derek Zoolander

Nick the slasher Mcgurk wrote: »

Please explain how you know my "experience" level ?

You honestly believe a chap who plays the same course over and over and over again won't find a way to play that course 15-20 shots better after 30-40 games ?

No a true reflection of a golfers overall ability is without doubt to test him on a different course at least as i said 5-10 times. If you play the same course cobtinually you learn quickly which shots you can get away with etc. thats called coasting .

As well as suggesting the requirement that for a true handicap a gui member play those 5-10 opens at other courses might i also suggest if they dont then their handicap gets ammended to show it was earned playing just the 1 course. Im sure if the "metal strip" mentioned earlier can carry the fact a golfer is a "parasitic distant" member then it could inform that a chap has what i would suggest is an easy handicap.

If this was the case then why are there members who play every week on the same course not all single figure golfers - it's beyond stupid to assume that everyone could play somewhere like the European, portmarnock, the island every week and be a single figure golfer.

But maybe most don't have your grip it and rip it talent....

FixdePitchmark

Greebo.

Have you any ideas how the game should be promoted ?

Who should do this ?

Or - do you think we should stick to the existing model ?

Are you happy the GUI are doing enough for the game ?

On the single course thing - agree totally , that a lad off say 12 - can get to single figures by just playing the one course. I don't think the achievement should be undermined , but there is more to golf than going out and knowing the questions and answers before you start.

In fact , going out thinking you have the answers before you start, is a bad idea in many aspects of life.

SaveOurLyric

Nick the slasher Mcgurk wrote: »

Please explain how you know my "experience" level ?

You honestly believe a chap who plays the same course over and over and over again won't find a way to play that course 15-20 shots better after 30-40 games ?.

Because of statements like the above. You must be fairly new to golf.
No way does experience of repeatedly play a course improve your score by 15-20 shots. utter nonsense.
From CSS score differences between members and visitors there is no more than 2 shots to be gained by long experience of a given course.
You can't have either tried it yourself, nor researched the data.

cairny

Comparing golf to soccer and other sports is probably so difficult as to to be not worth doing I think. The talented minority aside most young people drift away from golf some to come back to it in mid to late 30s.

When you introduce kids to golf at a young age its a very long term investment whereas the other sports will get the most participation before adulthood.

Golfs potential market increase is people retiring from other sports.

In my experience clubs offer very good junior programs, I certainly benefitted from ours and I had no prior connection to the club.

golfwallah

Nick the slasher Mcgurk wrote: »

Please explain how you know my "experience" level ?

You honestly believe a chap who plays the same course over and over and over again won't find a way to play that course 15-20 shots better after 30-40 games ?

No a true reflection of a golfers overall ability is without doubt to test him on a different course at least as i said 5-10 times. If you play the same course cobtinually you learn quickly which shots you can get away with etc. thats called coasting .

As well as suggesting the requirement that for a true handicap a gui member play those 5-10 opens at other courses might i also suggest if they dont then their handicap gets ammended to show it was earned playing just the 1 course. Im sure if the "metal strip" mentioned earlier can carry the fact a golfer is a "parasitic distant" member then it could inform that a chap has what i would suggest is an easy handicap.

It's a fair point that playing your own course is an advantage but I think you are greatly overestimating the effect this would have on handicaps.

Moreover, the GUI alone does not control how the Unified Handicap System (UHS) works. GUI administers the UHS in Ireland on behalf of CONGU (the Council of National Golf Unions Ltd, which is the authorising body for handicapping golfers in Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales).

The whole thing works along democratic lines. AFAIK, the process for change can be initiated by CONGU itself or any of the National Golfing Unions. So you would need to garner support for any proposed change at club level first, then at provincial level in GUI and then on to CONGU. Handicapping system changes seem to come about every 3 years.

So local support first at the start of a tedious process to effect even the slightest change, let alone the kind of momentous change you are talking about. Can't see much prospect for such a proposal in even one golf club right now - but good luck to you, if you want to try.

GreeBo

Nick the slasher Mcgurk wrote: »

Well there is - it informs other debaters on the current issue that a fellow has a grievance with the method and level of moderation. This happens publicly in debates at a frequent level.

Must admit its a rare debate where a "moderator" or "referee" puts forward his own opinion so frequently and seems to takes a certain side. Moderators are supposed to stand equally between both sides or they cannot moderate effectively
In my experience. Still im sure people can make up their own minds !

No, there isn't. It does not add to the conversation and, as ably demonstrated, derails the thread.
The moderators moderate the forum, no one else.

Moderators on boards.ie are free to express their opinions, as posters. Being a moderator does not preclude one from having an opinion or the right to express it freely.

GreeBo the poster puts forward his opinion, if you disagree then argue your point, if you have a problem with a post then report it.

But you, being a re-reg troll already know this.

GreeBo

Nick the slasher Mcgurk wrote: »

I feel you missed my point but do feel now its put to you in plainer terms you will grasp the gist.

hi there, perma banned.
goodbye.

SaveOurLyric

Nick the slasher Mcgurk wrote: »

Not many do i guess but my raw talent shouldnt be the level you measure your own game off i feel . Its "beyond stupid" to presume that all members play those mentioned courses simply to asertain a true level of golf and thus handicap level.


If somebody cannot improve their game whilst playing the same course constantly them i would assume their handicap on a different course would show up to be at least 10 shots worse. You see if a chap plays lets say the island course 40 times and his handicap after those 40 games is 18 then might i suggest that if you brought him to fota , the k club , rosses point or portrush (for example) then you would see that he more than likely shoots way above +18. In fact it would be beyond doubt.

I feel you missed my point but do feel now its put to you in plainer terms you will grasp the gist.

Your assumption about handicaps on a different course is completely wrong. Beyond doubt...?????
Read up on the Congu handicap system before making more silly statements.

FixdePitchmark

Is that a record lads (what 9 posts ? )