what IS a food outlet, really?

thatmeanchick

In ireland is a food outlet that which prepares food or serves it? ie if food is delivered to the retail premises but made offsite, is this ok?

In my hometown in America there was a shop that sold clothing and candles, records, etc but also had a coffee bar. Food wasnt made here but there was seating for 5 or 6 ppl at the counter and coffee was made & served.

In ireland does anyone know if this would count as a retail unit or food unit? I actually saw a few shops like this wandering around today but of course the staff had no clue....

I'm curious if you rent a retail unit and serve coffee there do you need change of use? or is that only needed when heat is used to make food? I was told by one shop's staff today that they were required to get a grease trap cos they had a dishwasher for their coffee cups.

more crap on top of crap rules

delahuntv

So you believe a shop staff member and make up your mind that its "more crap on top of crap rules"

With an attitude like that, you will go nowhere fast.

If you actually bothered to ask the right people without forst having a predetermined attititude / imression, you would actually find the rules are extremely easy to follow and the only real concern is the SAFETY of your customers.

But you think those rules are "crap".

My advice - don't even start looking at it. It won't suit you as the "rules" (known as food safety) have to be obeyed

thatmeanchick

There is no kitchen or food prep involved . I'm not 100% that installing a greasetrap for the coffee cups dishwasher is about food safety as much as it is about red tape.

As for "believing" the shop's staff, he's been there from the start and told me they had to undo work to install the trap... why should I not believe him and why do you seem to think he hasn't a clue about his own place of employment? Kind of a strange thing to make up as he'd gain nothing from it.

I've talked to several shop owners, letting agents, city council, the hse, architects and everything in between so kindly don't tell me to ask "the right people" as I value the opinion of everyone who has had involvement in similar situations...well almost everyone.

Some people give helpful if disagreeing replies without being insulting. You should look into that.

delahuntv

Maybe if you had a different attitude you would have had replies - I'm in the food business. Its easy if you knows the rules and regulations.

But as I said, if you have an attitude to rules that are there for YOUR safety and your customer's safety, is not something you should be getting into.

I'm purely going by your own post.

Victor

Perhaps you are venting? If you want people to help you (especially here), you need to be nice to them.

We don't know the exact rules, because there are different rules for different purposes.

For a shop, you need planning permission from the council's planning department. The city or county development plan will set out what types of premises and what types of shops are generally permitted or may be considered in a specific area. You then need to apply for planning permission. If a shop serves hot and/or ready to eat food, then you need permission to do this. If only a small proportion of the shop is used for this purpose, e.g. a large supermarket where they serve fresh sandwiches, then there may be an exemption - it is down to the materiality of the food use, as opposed to retail use.

Separately, the council's drainage department (now overseen by Irish Water), the council's environmental health department and the HSE have rules about how food is stored, prepared and served. They are likely to take the attitude that if you sell food, even dry cereal, then you are a food outlet.

Part of that is down to whether any material amount of grease can enter the drainage system. In the drainage system, grease tends to solidify and can, over time, block the drain completely. While serving food is a major source of grease, selling food (whether made on- or off-site) can also be a source of grease. This can come from the cleaning of plates, etc., but also from general cleaning of the premises after spillages. Note that coffee often contains milk and cream, both of which contain fat.

So, if there is a rule that you need to fit a grease trap, you have two choices - fit and maintain the grease trap or get the rules changes. Changing the rules may take an extended period of time.

YellowSheep

to delahuntv. ...... Why do you habe to be so negative? It's a forum where people want to get and exchange information.

thatmeanchick

My thoughts exactly, Yellow Sheep - yet I was told to "be nice" to people lol

delahuntv

YellowSheep wrote: »

to delahuntv. ...... Why do you habe to be so negative? It's a forum where people want to get and exchange information.

Not negative - pointing out that if you go into business with a attitude to the rules that pertain to that business, you will fail.

If the OP had not put the line "more crap on top of crap rules" my guess is she would have had a lot more feedback from posters.

I'm in retail 30 years this year and part of my business is in food. The rules are stringent, but very very easily adhered to and they are there to protect both the business owner and the customer.

A person going into any form of business who has an issue with rules and regulations will fail.

Its not negativity - its reality.

percy212

Seriously harsh replies you got there meanchick. Hard to understand. Anyway try to ignore the tone and just take any useful info posted. Best of luck.

thatmeanchick wrote: »

My thoughts exactly, Yellow Sheep - yet I was told to "be nice" to people lol

thatmeanchick

thanks very much, Percy.

Btw delahuntv, you're on my ignore list since yesterday so not sure what your last reply there was but your input isn't really needed after your previous post. Have a good one.

pedroeibar1

thatmeanchick wrote: »

In ireland is a food outlet that which prepares food or serves it? ie if food is delivered to the retail premises but made offsite, is this ok?

In my hometown in America there was a shop that sold clothing and candles, records, etc but also had a coffee bar. Food wasnt made here but there was seating for 5 or 6 ppl at the counter and coffee was made & served.

In ireland does anyone know if this would count as a retail unit or food unit? I actually saw a few shops like this wandering around today but of course the staff had no clue....

I'm curious if you rent a retail unit and serve coffee there do you need change of use? or is that only needed when heat is used to make food? I was told by one shop's staff today that they were required to get a grease trap cos they had a dishwasher for their coffee cups.

more crap on top of crap rules

Quoting what happens in your hometown in America is about as meaningful as quoting the rules on Mars. Expecting legal advise from a coffee server on licensing requirements is up there with the foregoing.

Retail in Ireland has much the same 'umbrella' rules as throughout the US – zoning, planning, permitted use, licenses, etc., it’s just that the names are different (e.g. bye-law = city ordinance and Trader’s licence = Vendor’s license). However, retail rules in Ireland are substantially easier than for e.g. in NY, where currently - unless you are a veteran - you cannot obtain a general vendors’ license. ('cos the Non VA quota is full.:))

If you want to be snide about it I could add that in many sectors it is far easier to transact business across national borders in EU jurisdictions than intra-State in the US. Also, food licencing in the EU is far simpler than dealing with the FDA.
I don’t always agree with DelaV but this time I do.

thatmeanchick

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Quoting what happens in your hometown in America is about as meaningful as quoting the rules on Mars. Expecting legal advise from a coffee server on licensing requirements is up there with the foregoing.

.. I don’t always agree with DelaV but this time I do.

Ermmm, Mars? Really? I'm simply saying how we do it at home - not insinuating it's the same here. Do you usually have this attitude when someone compares their home country to Ireland? Odd.

Also, me asking someone about the same situation for the exact same layout as we have in mind, isn't that crazy. That isn't legal advice, by the way. I have more solicitors up my sleeve than I know what to do with but also wanted to talk to someone INSIDE the situation. By the sounds of it, you couldn't imagine respecting the opinion of a "coffee server" but that doesn't concern me and neither does who you do or don't agree with on this forum. I haven't got the time to argue on the internet. Enjoy.

The Freeman

Seriously harsh thread with negative feedback from posters. No need and not helpful imo.

dbran

Ok.

I dont think that this is going anywhere healthy so I think its time to close this thread. And I dont care who said what to whom so no silly childish PMs to me please on the subject. The first one of which get a weeks ban for wasting my time.

OP- You have your answer. Tomorrow you simply pick up the phone and ring your County council planning department and find out once and for all whether or not you need to install a greese trap etc. Getting into a slanging match with folks on here is not gong to help and is a waste of your time and energy.

Best of luck with it anyway

dbran