We Really Don't Have To Do This Anymore...

DeadHand

Wurly wrote: »

Shouldn't you be angry at the pollution of the planet? Or that some people have billions upon billions yet some people starve? What is being angry at me for the mere notion of suggesting change going to do

You are coming from a place of total benevolence and optimism but yet, but yet...

Can you not see how your twin ambitions are at total conflict with each other? To save human beings from starvation takes increased wealth for everyone which means greater worldwide industrialistion which, by it's nature, means greater pollution of the planet. It's sad but you cannot have both.

Fine, remove (how? violently?) the billionaires. Do you think that will be the end of the elite? No, they will be replaced by new billionaires, new elites in the same way the Zsars were replaced by the chairmen, in the same way the aristocracy was replaced by the Politburo, by the Party.

The way the planet is run now is dysfunctional and unfair but still far better than any alternative ever devised. The fact we are all "here" expressing ideas and opinions freely is testament to that.

Permabear

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One eyed Jack

Wurly wrote: »

No - not a one sided discussion. We can all learn from one another. Nothing is black and white. The people who want change can discuss ideas. Maybe that in itself might encourage debate from the people that don't. Either way, it's the discussion that's important.

Here's the thing mate, I want change for EVERYONE and that includes you and your family. I don't want any of us to have to endure a failing and damaging model that is currently being imposed on us.

I'm open to listening to your ideas, but the problem here is I just can't relate to any of your ideas, they're so far outside my thinking that I just don't care as much about your ideas as you do. That's not a problem I have to resolve. That's a problem you have to resolve. I don't feel that same endurance of a failing and damaged model that you feel, so you're going to have to at some point in the discussion break it down for me and give me something I can relate to and something I will care about, not just something you think I should care about because you're upset by it.

I have no doubt that I have it good. I never said I didn't. But there is a huge wealth divide on this planet, people are starving, the planet is being polluted and entire species are dying out. So just because I have a cosy bed to sleep in every night, doesn't mean I can't care about these issues. Without the planet, none of us really have a home in the first place.

The planets going nowhere, it was there before human beings, it will still be there after human beings. The only thing that will change is undoubtedly the climate and the topography. These changes happen naturally with or without human intervention. So what you really should be focusing your energy on isn't the planet, but the survival and progression of the humanity.

You maintain there is a huge wealth divide on this planet and that people are starving and this seems to cause you distress, yet what have you actually done today to alleviate that distress? Have you approached your neighbours and asked them would they like some assistance with anything, would they like to chat, would they have time to listen to you, or did you stay at home behind your cosy four walls?

You claim that without the planet, we have no home, yet when was the last time you tried to understand what it was actually like to be homeless? When was the last time you brought a homeless person home and offered them a hot meal and a night in your cosy bed?

You don't have to go too far to see them, I'll bet there are at least ten homeless people within a five mile radius of your location as we speak. You talk about the extinction of species in faraway rain forests while there are human beings dying slowly on your doorstep.

There is a wealth divide there, people are starving, dying, and you can actually do something about that as opposed to just complaining about it on social media. What have you done today?

I have a perspective on history. Are you claiming I don't? I'm interested on what you've based that on.

I'm basing it on the fact that you claim we are currently living in devastating times, your empty rhetoric, and your inability to recognise the changes you can make in your own community to help improve the lives of people around you instead of your "bigger picture" guff. You complain about globalisation, yet your own attitude is part of the problem. It enables you to see all the problems, but disables you from realising any solutions. They're staring you in the face every time you look in the mirror - YOU are the solution to your own world view.

Don't do anything for me, don't do anything for anyone else, do it for yourself, and lead by example. The effect of your efforts will have a knock on effect and eventually I'm sure I'll feel the effects of it. That's how you do real-life social networking, not these fantastic social justice warrior ideas you're coming out with on the internet and hoping someone else will pick up the baton. You'll get a couple of likes for your efforts and that'll be about it.

So you're ageist? And you're judgemental. I'm not sure that contributes positively to anything. People are not allowed make mistakes? I know you're better than this!

Being honest with you, it's hard to take someone seriously when they don't take themselves seriously. I was just watching Russell Brand being interviewed on the Johnathan Ross show to promote his new book, and when a middle aged man wearing tight leather trousers comes out with the line "I'm so angry I've got an erection!", that's when I know I have nothing to worry about.

Lindsey Lohan who was being interviewed after him was much more pleasant to listen to, and sure as hell far easier on the eye than the cheesy grinning gobshìte beside her who kept interrupting her in case there might be a chance the attention might be off him for a minute. Lindsey Lohan conducted herself in an exemplary fashion and gave as interesting an interview as she could, despite the efforts of the idiot beside who craves constant attention, adulation and validation, the very same as I said earlier as a petulant child.

He isn't interested in anyone but himself, and you'd be foolish to think he gives a shìt about anyone but himself.

Call Me Jimmy

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Is this sort of thing zero sum or are resources being used more efficiently?

Karl Stein

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Where to start with your terribly reductive neo-liberal propaganda... An honest appraisal of Africa's development would consider how colonialism, corporations and conflicts over its abundance of resources have held it back from where it should have been a long time ago.

How many modern corporations benefited from the wholesale kidnapping, transportation and intergenerational torture of African slaves? Consider the vast wealth that was generated from the slave trade - vast wealth that contributed to propelling the development of western capitalism.

An honest appraisal would consider who in Africa is benefiting from growth, after all we've all learned that the trickle down theory is utter bullshit.

the increase in per capita GDP recorded over the last decade and a half has helped reduce poverty, but only modestly. This implies that the benefits of growth have not been shared equally among the African populace

www.afdb.org

An honest appraisal would also consider the effects of state owned Chinese companies building infrastructure in African countries.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Karl Stein

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Would you like to resist engaging in whataboutery just because you got called out on your reductive propaganda?

Wurly

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'm open to listening to your ideas, but the problem here is I just can't relate to any of your ideas, they're so far outside my thinking that I just don't care as much about your ideas as you do. That's not a problem I have to resolve. That's a problem you have to resolve. I don't feel that same endurance of a failing and damaged model that you feel, so you're going to have to at some point in the discussion break it down for me and give me something I can relate to and something I will care about, not just something you think I should care about because you're upset by it.

Absolutely fair enough point and my apologies for being so vague. What contributes to the vagueness is the fact that I don't have all the answers. It's particularly disconcerting when the tone of this thread has turned so hostile. But I understand that I need to talk more about this failed model in order to help you to understand where i'm coming from.

Okay so I mentioned a number of issues in my OP. Here are just a few things that I would like to see change:

The fact that energy companies that strip the planet get funding from governments but renewable energy companies get zilch.

The level of propaganda and controlled news available to us via the TV and Newspapers/Magazines.

The whole political structure where overpaid politicians do f*ck all but still receive pensions for the rest of their days.

The fact that we have to pay for the gambling debts of bankers.

The fact that there is no food shortage on the planet. There is only over production for the west and a pillaging of natural resources in the developing world.

The fact that a company called Monsanto can exist and dare attempt to patent fruit and vegetables.

The fact that we are blatantly ignoring climate change.

There are so many. Both at a local level and a global level. Have I given you any reason to get emotional yet?

The planets going nowhere, it was there before human beings, it will still be there after human beings. The only thing that will change is undoubtedly the climate and the topography. These changes happen naturally with or without human intervention. So what you really should be focusing your energy on isn't the planet, but the survival and progression of the humanity.

I'm well aware that natural cycles occur. However, we are making an absolute kip of the place. So much so that we have devastated natural habitats of animals and people. That is something WE are doing. That is not natural. The human race exacerbating natural cycles and we are creating more problems that wouldn't be there without our input.

You maintain there is a huge wealth divide on this planet and that people are starving and this seems to cause you distress, yet what have you actually done today to alleviate that distress? Have you approached your neighbours and asked them would they like some assistance with anything, would they like to chat, would they have time to listen to you, or did you stay at home behind your cosy four walls?

I suspect that you have a notion of me formed in your head before I even open my mouth. Furthermore, I don't see why I should have to justify my day to you. I have said since the beginning that I want us united and to stop f*cking pointing fingers and b*tching at each other. No wonder nothing ever gets done.

But for the purposes of answering your question, I did not do much today. However, I am an active member of my community, I am also a volunteer. I buy my fruit and vegetables direct from farmers, I don't buy products owned by large corporations where possible. I boycott companies who infringe on human rights or dodgy dealings of any kind. I would consider myself extremely conscientious about the issues I raise. This does not make me better than anyone else. I am answering a question you've asked me.

You claim that without the planet, we have no home, yet when was the last time you tried to understand what it was actually like to be homeless? When was the last time you brought a homeless person home and offered them a hot meal and a night in your cosy bed?

Again you are all about perceptions. I volunteer regularly with homeless people. I have offered my home many times but the people were uncomfortable staying with a stranger and declined my request. Please don't imply i'm all talk and no action.

You don't have to go too far to see them, I'll bet there are at least ten homeless people within a five mile radius of your location as we speak. You talk about the extinction of species in faraway rain forests while there are human beings dying slowly on your doorstep.

Yes and I buy these people lunch a fair few times a week. I also sit and chat with them. I have made very good 'street' friends a number of times.

There is a wealth divide there, people are starving, dying, and you can actually do something about that as opposed to just complaining about it on social media. What have you done today?

I've given you a snapshot of an average week. So i'll ask you - what have YOU done?

I'm basing it on the fact that you claim we are currently living in devastating times, your empty rhetoric, and your inability to recognise the changes you can make in your own community to help improve the lives of people around you instead of your "bigger picture" guff. You complain about globalisation, yet your own attitude is part of the problem. It enables you to see all the problems, but disables you from realising any solutions. They're staring you in the face every time you look in the mirror - YOU are the solution to your own world view.

I agree i'm the solution. If everyone recognised this, then we'd have many people on this wavelength. This is how global change happens. Which is why i'm wanting this discussion to happen.

Don't do anything for me, don't do anything for anyone else, do it for yourself, and lead by example. The effect of your efforts will have a knock on effect and eventually I'm sure I'll feel the effects of it. That's how you do real-life social networking, not these fantastic social justice warrior ideas you're coming out with on the internet and hoping someone else will pick up the baton. You'll get a couple of likes for your efforts and that'll be about it.

Well i'm trying my best but I need others on board. Change is happening. It's evident. So it's worth talking about at the very least.

Being honest with you, it's hard to take someone seriously when they don't take themselves seriously. I was just watching Russell Brand being interviewed on the Johnathan Ross show to promote his new book, and when a middle aged man wearing tight leather trousers comes out with the line "I'm so angry I've got an erection!", that's when I know I have nothing to worry about.

Lindsey Lohan who was being interviewed after him was much more pleasant to listen to, and sure as hell far easier on the eye than the cheesy grinning gobshìte beside her who kept interrupting her in case there might be a chance the attention might be off him for a minute. Lindsey Lohan conducted herself in an exemplary fashion and gave as interesting an interview as she could, despite the efforts of the idiot beside who craves constant attention, adulation and validation, the very same as I said earlier as a petulant child.

He isn't interested in anyone but himself, and you'd be foolish to think he gives a shìt about anyone but himself.

Why should everything be so f*cking serious all the time? Don't we have enough misery in the world? Have we forgotten that life is supposed to be fun? This doesn't deflect from his very excellent points on what we can do to create change.

Have you actually watched any of his videos? Especially the one that I posted? If you haven't, them i'm not sure how we see eye to eye on the merits of Russell Brand.

KomradeBishop

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Why don't you read Piketty or Stiglitz and come back to the economics forum.

( and don't expect a concencus anywhere).

Condescending stuff like this, just comes across like you're trying to shut-down debate, and berate the OP for trying to create discussion on this issue in the first place.

The Diabolical Monocle

OP ... you can change society all you want ... its life thats fvcked.

And not in a mal-functioning, repairable way, but in its essential nature.

Also as I was reading your opening comment I began thinking of R Brand and then I scroll down and there he is.

I like the guy but imho he's also mis-understood society for life.

Suppose all corruption and inequality ends tomorrow, and instead of corporate sponsored military politics we now use recycled pollution to power our vegan-mobiles to our local compassion centers, it wont make a difference, a mother of three will still die in a vegan-mobile crash, a local compassion center will still go on fire.

I think a lot of people would like to nuke the planet and get it over with sooner rather than later, spare another generation of sentients from this sht storm.

Wurly

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Suppose all corruption and inequality ends tomorrow, and instead of corporate sponsored military politics we now use recycled pollution to power our vegan-mobiles to our local compassion centers, it wont make a difference, a mother of three will still die in a vegan-mobile crash, a local compassion center will still go on fire.

Yes but those are accidents. What the powers that be are doing to us is no accident!

Permabear

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Karl Stein

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Rubbish. Rubbish. Rubbish. Kids in the south of the globe are dying of malnutrition while adults in the north are dying of obesity. The problem is not lack of food.

Hunger is caused by poverty and inequality, not scarcity. For the past two decades, the rate of global food production has increased faster than the rate of global population growth. The world already produces more than 1 ½ times enough food to feed everyone on the planet. That's enough to feed 10 billion people, the population peak we expect by 2050.

huffingtonpost.com/eric-holt-gimenez/world-hunger_b_1463429.html

KomradeBishop

Some solutions to the various problems mention in the OP - all the type of topics that are viewed as extremely controversial, and have an instant backlash (yet usually without posters offering solutions of their own):

Possible solutions to inequality/distribution-of-wealth:
- A Basic Income
- A Living Wage
- A Job Guarantee (can be combined with basic income, for a Job and Income Guarantee)
- A Maximum Wage (can be a multiple of minimum/living wage)

Possible solutions to an unstable banking/monetary system: (first two also solve public deficit/debt problems, but can not be done in EU)
- Monetary Reform (remove banks ability to create money, have central bank introduce new money through government spending instead)
- Merge central bank with government (banks still create money, are directly supervised by government - government spending limited by hitting 2-4% inflation, not by taxes, not by public debt - never need to spend with public debt again)
- Public banking (nationalization of banks - compatible with above)
- Better bank regulation (separate deposit from investment banks, proper loan limits, limits on bank sizes - break up large banks, rigorous/thorough/up-to-date legal definitions of fraud, enforcement of law backed by huge prison sentences and fines so large they can shut-down banks)

Possible solutions to the economic crisis:
- For Europe, Yanis Varoufakis' Modest Proposal
- For individual EU countries, Rob Parenteau's Tax Anticipation Notes
- For countries with their own currency (e.g. US/UK), either Monetary Reform or central-bank merging, as mentioned above - both free up government spending
- Also for countries with their own currency - government spending backed by low-interest debt
- National Debt Relief (this was recently done for third world countries with Jubilee 2000)
- Private Debt Relief
- A Debt Jubilee (need to scroll down a bit - different to Jubilee 2000 - gives every citizen a once-off large sum of money, that must be used to pay down debts first of all - more fair than debt writedowns, for people who did not get into debt)

Possible solutions to climate change: (and this is the 'Big One' - the main long-term issue that needs to be addressed, which is getting worse at the moment)
- A Steady-State Economy, which does not require endless growth.
- Introduce new money to the economy through government instead of through loans/debt, as touched on above (the interest on the debt, makes debt grow endlessly, which is part of why the current economic system requires neverending growth)
- Massive government investment in Research & Development, for technologies that reduce dependence on fossil fuels (private sector will not be properly motivated to do this, until it is already too late)
- Massive government investment, in infrastructural changes that move away from fossil-fuels, and which increase energy efficiency and low-energy/low-pollution services within the economy (like better public transport)

Possible solutions to government capture/corruption:
- Revamped laws more rigorously defining corruption and enforcement of these laws
- Enhanced protection and immunity for whistleblowers throughout government and industry
- Cooling-off period (1-3 years) switching between industry jobs, and government roles involved in same industry
- Cooling-off period between exiting government, and engaging in a job involving lobbying government


These are things that are largely just off the top of my head too. There are craploads of perfectly good/practical ideas for solutions out there, but they are all contested primarily for political reasons.

Most of the effective solutions, have to be undertaken on a large-scale/government level, not at an individual level - the problems are with the large-scale economic/political system, not with individuals, the solutions are within reform of large-scale political/economic systems as well, not with individual people (though of course, individuals have to come together to make that happen).

Permabear

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Iwasfrozen

GM foods are definitely the future, those who say they aren't are reminiscent of luddites.

chrissb8

Celly Smunt wrote: »

Well he wouldn't exactly be the most learned in the field for one.

Well he's a human being for one. He's a very well known public figure representing alot of views people believe in. Surely a normal layman who just wants to know what's going on (marvin gaye knew what was up!) is much more relatable then some guy behind a desk or such. Refreshing to see it. Honestly though I do not like Russel Brand at all but I respect that there are alot of people who believe there is alot wrong with the world.

I think the fact that people exist out there who think people who want the world to change are "away" with the faries as it were. What is wrong with you people? do you not want humankind to be around for thousands of years? a world that's better for your children and generations after?

Please. The next time you're holding a cash note in your hand remind yourself it's only paper that holds nothing but fictional value. Money is a made up thing and it is ruining the world. Humans will never reach their full potential if the main goals in their lives are greedy self absorbed ones. People don't see beyond the next pay check. Imagine if you went into a job where you knew you made a real difference in helping people and maybe even contributing to mankind no matter how small it was. Alot of people already have that but we know for the most of us that's not the case.

The next time you can't finish that last slither of food on your plate remind yourself that there are people dying from a lack of food. Even after that there is religion which is and might not ever be resolved for people to all understand and respect each other.

The main reason there is no movement in my opinion is because it all sounds a bit communist. Anyway the whole reason I wrote this was just to say I have no idea why people think it's weird to idealize a better world. Some of the greatest people (if not the most important people) in history have been those who looked at the world and said I'm not having that, that's wrong and changed it.

People just need to take a step back and look at it logically. You spend your life struggling for something you believe is the be all and end all (money). You sacrifice so much and work so hard just to make the living you want. Then you die. There is something so so wrong with all that. Lifes focus should be to improve what's around you. The mindframe and indeed the "system" is all wrong.

Karl Stein

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Ha-ha . Down the libertarian rabbit hole we go as it gets Curiouser and Curiouser.

MIT recieves over 75% of its funding from government/public money. I know this off the top of my head without having to furiously google for counter-arguments as you've just done.

You wouldn't be extolling the virtues of government driven research facilities would you now Permabear?

jay-me

The problem with this leftist approach is that it is complete and utter idealist horse ****! The only people that want change are the people that are A not happy with the current system or B not embroiled in it enough to lack the time to care. Fear is societies greatest ally in that it entraps people in itself.

One eyed Jack

Wurly wrote: »

Absolutely fair enough point and my apologies for being so vague. What contributes to the vagueness is the fact that I don't have all the answers. It's particularly disconcerting when the tone of this thread has turned so hostile. But I understand that I need to talk more about this failed model in order to help you to understand where i'm coming from.

If you're hoping to change people's attitudes, then you need to be prepared to meet with resistance. You really do need to talk to more people, not just people on the same wavelength as you, because they think like you already. It's the people who don't think like you whose attitudes you're hoping to change will offer you the most resistance, and it's no good saying you don't have all the answers to all the problems you want to discuss, you need to come up with some answers, and then work on gaining support for your ideas. If you don't have answers, then you need to stop inventing problems, or educate yourself to a level where you can come up with some answers. Telling ME to go research solutions to YOUR problems, just isn't going to cut it.

Okay so I mentioned a number of issues in my OP. Here are just a few things that I would like to see change:

The fact that energy companies that strip the planet get funding from governments but renewable energy companies get zilch.

And straight away you go global and beyond my thinking again. I don't know enough about energy companies nor renewable energy to get worked up about this issue.

The level of propaganda and controlled news available to us via the TV and Newspapers/Magazines.

TV, Newspapers, magazines exist to give people what they want. The internet is no different - what you see is controlled by your ISP. You have the choice in what you want to consume, other people have the choice in what they want to consume. Media outlets and online services exist because you are choosing to support them. Boards continues to exist because you support it.

The whole political structure where overpaid politicians do f*ck all but still receive pensions for the rest of their days.

You say they are overpaid, you say they do f*ck all, and why shouldn't they receive pensions for the rest of their days? They have been elected by the people they serve. I have no time for politics personally speaking, so I don't particularly care what politicians get up to. If I did care, I'd have run for election the same way they did.

The fact that we have to pay for the gambling debts of bankers.

I'm not paying for the gambling debts of any bankers? I'd certainly be aware of it if a bank employee had asked me to bankroll their gambling debts, but nobody's come near me.

The fact that there is no food shortage on the planet. There is only over production for the west and a pillaging of natural resources in the developing world.

Again with going global, fwiw though, that's economics for you, I'm not too worried about food shortages and pillaging while I'm still able to feed myself.

The fact that a company called Monsanto can exist and dare attempt to patent fruit and vegetables.

No idea who Monsanto are, but if they can manage to patent fruit and vegetables via the same patent system that Apple have done for years, that doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Kinda reminds me of the whole EU making regulations about bendy bananas a couple of years back. I'm not going to get too bent out of shape about it.

The fact that we are blatantly ignoring climate change.

I'm certainly not ignoring climate change, bought myself a new jacket today because it's gone bloody baltic out there. The weather tomorrow concerns me, the weather in 200 years time? Not so much.

There are so many. Both at a local level and a global level. Have I given you any reason to get emotional yet?

You haven't, but I appreciate that at least you're trying. I'm just not feeling it. Have I given you any reason to re-think your strategy yet?

I'm well aware that natural cycles occur. However, we are making an absolute kip of the place. So much so that we have devastated natural habitats of animals and people. That is something WE are doing. That is not natural. The human race exacerbating natural cycles and we are creating more problems that wouldn't be there without our input.

We all have to live somewhere, and if it comes down to a choice between humanity and animals, well, while it's unlikely we'll ever get to that stage, as much as I love animals, this planet isn't big enough for both of us.

I suspect that you have a notion of me formed in your head before I even open my mouth. Furthermore, I don't see why I should have to justify my day to you. I have said since the beginning that I want us united and to stop f*cking pointing fingers and b*tching at each other. No wonder nothing ever gets done.

Of course I have a notion of you formed in my head before you open your mouth, in just the same way as you have a notion of me formed in your head, and that's going to change for both of us (well I hope it does anyway) as this discussion continues. If you want me to gain a better understanding of you as a person, and you want to gain my support for your ideas, then it helps to justify your day to me so I have a better understanding of where you're coming from and who knows, we may even stop pointing fingers and end up united in order to get things done.

I'm genuinely interested in what you're saying, and I'm not fcuking you about. I just can't relate to your globalisation ideas, my interest is more local and community based.

But for the purposes of answering your question, I did not do much today. However, I am an active member of my community, I am also a volunteer. I buy my fruit and vegetables direct from farmers, I don't buy products owned by large corporations where possible. I boycott companies who infringe on human rights or dodgy dealings of any kind. I would consider myself extremely conscientious about the issues I raise. This does not make me better than anyone else. I am answering a question you've asked me.


Again you are all about perceptions. I volunteer regularly with homeless people. I have offered my home many times but the people were uncomfortable staying with a stranger and declined my request. Please don't imply i'm all talk and no action.


Yes and I buy these people lunch a fair few times a week. I also sit and chat with them. I have made very good 'street' friends a number of times.


I've given you a snapshot of an average week. So i'll ask you - what have YOU done?

Fantastic stuff, now we're getting somewhere. We actually may share more common ground than you realise as I too have worked with various voluntary organisations, community groups and individuals for nearly the last two decades as well as working in the private sector in various IT related roles.

I agree i'm the solution. If everyone recognised this, then we'd have many people on this wavelength. This is how global change happens. Which is why i'm wanting this discussion to happen.

See? We're not so different after all?

Well i'm trying my best but I need others on board. Change is happening. It's evident. So it's worth talking about at the very least.

Well I'm willing to get on board if I can see that it's worth my while getting on board. To be perfectly honest, I'm still on the fence as from where I'm standing, your overarching concern still seems to be globalisation, and I'm just not sure I can get on board with that as it draws the focus away from community and local issues. I agree with you though that discussion is good, discussion is always good.

Why should everything be so f*cking serious all the time? Don't we have enough misery in the world? Have we forgotten that life is supposed to be fun? This doesn't deflect from his very excellent points on what we can do to create change.

We don't have to be serious all the time, but if we want people to take us seriously, then we have to be serious about ourselves. If you want to eradicate misery in the world, then you have to take it seriously and stop your messing, otherwise you'll never get any work done.

You can have play time once we all get play time, you could say we're already distributing the work, and we all get to share equally in the rewards afterwards. Isn't that the outcome we both want? I'm not busting my balls while you're off having fun, that's definitely not gonna fly!

Have you actually watched any of his videos? Especially the one that I posted? If you haven't, them i'm not sure how we see eye to eye on the merits of Russell Brand.

Ok, I did watch the video, and that's 15 minutes that confirmed my suspicions that Russell Brand only cares about Russell Brand -

- Swanky New York hotel

- Comparisons to John Lennon and Yoko Ono

- Waffling on yet again about his spiritual beliefs

- Constant innuendos and references to engaging in homosexual activity with the person he was interviewing

- The person he was interviewing having no academic background in what he was talking about, a college dropout that made some film called 2012 that I've never heard of.


So yeah, while you still maintain that Russell Brand is a suitable figurehead for your new movement, you're on your own as far as I'm concerned.

Jester252

I bet the OP is a first year student university student

RobYourBuilder

Is Russell Brand still telling people that political change will happen if they don't vote?

WILL NEVER LOG OFF

Jester252 wrote: »

I bet the OP is a first year student university student

and if he is?

his ideas have value or not.

hate this "who are you to say so" attitude. it goes against the whole spirit of online debate. i know a lot less than my bf/friends about certain topics, but online i don't have as much reluctance to take a position. because all that matters is how you express an opinion , not others' preconceived ideas about you

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Wurly

Jester252 wrote: »

I bet the OP is a first year student university student

Instead of jumping to conclusions, how about you ask me a question?

I'm a 32 year old business owner actually.

Now, moving on....

Karl Stein

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

'100% correct in many of the problems'. 100% correct in 60% of problems is it? Dear oh dear.

Further empowering government will only lead to even more of the above.

Further empowering human beings to deal with other human beings will only empower human beings who have lots of wealth/power? Please stop embarrassing yourself.

DiegoCosta

Karl Stein wrote: »

'100% correct in many of the problems'. 100% correct in 60% of problems is it? Dear oh dear.



Further empowering human beings to deal with other human beings will only empower human beings who have lots of wealth/power? Please stop embarrassing yourself.

Why do you say "Dear oh dear"?

It is perfectly valid to say someone is 100% correct in many problems.

Ie when you look at the commentary on many of the problems there are no faults.

Cantremember

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMYNfQlf1H8

Do sing along .....all together now...

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Wurly wrote: »

Here's the thing mate, I want change for EVERYONE and that includes you and your family. I don't want any of us to have to endure a failing and damaging model

Here's another thing. I am not your mate! And neither I nor my family want or need any of the changes you advocate. The model, as you call it, may be flawed but all models are.
Lord preserve us if a condescending attitude typifies the way forward for this planet.

Sunnyisland

Wurly wrote: »

Instead of jumping to conclusions, how about you ask me a question?

I'm a 32 year old business owner actually.

Now, moving on....

For a person that wants change and equality you don't seem to tolerant of others who have different opions about you or your OP, not a good start.