We Really Don't Have To Do This Anymore...

One eyed Jack

Anyone up for a spot of hand-waving, Occupy' style?

I'm sorry Wurlzy but your posts have literally become a carbon copy of the habitual protester I met while doing an overnight stint in one of those Occupy tents. I asked him how long had he been doing it - "Ten years"...

Ten fcuking years? At that craic? He was one miserable shìte tbh, and this whole 'simple lifestyle'? It's completely impractical, for numerous reasons, not the least of which being that I dont want to live in a smelly tent surrounded by people eyeballing me suspiciously as if I'm one of 'the elite' just because I was wearing a shirt and tie. I wasn't aware it was a 'dress like you're piss poor' occasion.

It was an eye opener alright, but not in the way you're thinking.

KomradeBishop

Wurly wrote: »

Shouldn't we ask ourselves what we really want in this life? Weren't the best moments of your life when you felt genuine love for something or someone? Imagine if we created a society where that was the premise? The well being of people. So that everyone had enough for a simple but comfortable, happy life.

So if our focus is there, magic can happen. And just because all of these problems have existed for song, doesn't mean we can't solve them. It's only impossible until we do it.

Similar to, but not quite the same, is the concept of a 'leisure economy', where work hours are shortened, thus giving people more free time to live a fulfilling life - and it even helps reduce pollution levels, so is a viable tool for helping tackle climate change as well

All sorts of other policies that can be looked-at/pursued here as well.

Donkey Oaty

On the basis of this thread, I sense the Age of Aquarius is not quite dawning yet.

Wurly

looking_around wrote: »

Flooding is due to building in flood planes etc, areas where we really shouldn't have built. Can't blame the governement for that choice, business men built there, and buyers bought, not caring that it was a flood plane and will flood again.
Building by rivers is rarely a good idea.....

Indeed. I agree with you. However, there has been an increase in erratic weather patterns which contribute to flooding. Some are natural earth cycles. Some are related to our own pollution.

Tbf, we are still better off than we were even 40 years ago. I don't actually know many people afraid. Frustrated. Having to count pennies, possibly losing their houses and moving back in with parents or other familes, living in smaller places and less materialism, yes.......but fear?

All of these things cause people to feel worried. Worry is fearing the worst for the future. So it is actually fear. It's just called something else in this instance.

Yes, I would be apt to agree, what do you want to do? Ban large supermarkets(increasing the price of food and taking away choice.) because people are wasteful? Yes, they're pretty bad, but changes have come about, laws now, compared to 10 years ago.

Encourage people to buy local where possible for foods they can receive here from small business. If we did that first step alone, it could make a huge difference.

Things are changing. Mostly it requires people's views about animals to change. I still know many many people who see animals more as an object than a living thing. People aren't going to change overnight, and you can't make people emphatic. I'm hopeful that with younger generations and slow change in tolerance to harm. This will and is changing

I really hope you're right on this one. Sincerely.

You post the lamb kebabs I forgot in the back of the car to africa......
I'll also scrape my left over dinner into a box and post that out, while I'm at it. I'm sure they'll appreciate that......................Whether we waste food or not, does not affect the starving. Unless we consciously use OUR money that we spent and wasted on food for them. Here's an idea, lets take away choice, and set up food allowances per person, for the entire world. Might be a healthier populace and certainly less waste...but freedom?

Yes our waste does affect the problem. We are creating more of a supply due to our excessive consumption and wasteful attitude towards food.

It doesn't really work like that. conspiracy theory much? What?, it's only a nanny state if it's legislation against what you want? Is it not a nanny state to have all the above you want controlled? Why should the governement have to do anything? We're a free people, no one stopping anyone setting a group and a renting a community hall/room and starting up.

Tjis is exactly what I want people to start thinking about. Changing things at a local level first in each of our communities, without the need for governments.

If people want it, they can do it.

My sentiments exactly.

Everyone should be entitle to home help, a medical examination to see that you truly need it. Not all elderly do, and many young people do need it. It should medical exam AND means tested, so everyone should pay a little, be it a fiver or a fifty euro, means test it. Why should anyone get it free. There are many pensioners out there with bloody good pensions.

You have exposed beautifully another problem with the current system. Inequality in the health care system. So how about a nominal fee for all instead of free for some and huge bills for others?

Do you actually KNOW anyone who suffers with a mental illness(it's not just depression please don't only think depression is worth awareness.).

My father, at one point in his life was diagnosed with 23 different mental disorders. The effects of which, I witnessed on a daily basis for 23 years of my life.

I previously suffered from clinical depression.

I have plenty more examples but I trust the above two suffice.

I suffer from depression. I am receiving care from the local "outpatient unit". I see counsellors weekly, I have access to psychiatric nurses if needed..and more.. there is an art group every 2 weeks, and a "social" group every 2 weeks, this is more than there's ever been.
The government IS doing something, they have increased the number of counsellors, there are more nurses than ever who are trained in CBT therapy. They also offer(was started 3 years ago here.) DBT therapy. It is improving, you can't negate the improvements because it was once bad, it's not going to improve overnight.

I am absolutely thrilled that you are receiving the care you need. When I was depressed, I found the system to be appalling. So it's wonderful to know that people nowadays are getting cared for so well. I truly wish you the best for your recovery.

I also know of some horrific cases on a personal level where people did not receive the care they needed, no matter what the protest. So how come your needs are looked after but my friends needs weren't. Everyone should have the same experience you've had.

They haven't cut the mental health budget, despite all the other cuts with the recession, mental health was not hit. Well done, I say!

Agreed. However many other worthy causes received a hammering.

Meh, every country does this to some extent or other.

Does that make it okay?

So many comments about Irish Water, is this a water meter thread in disguise?

No but i'm referring to it occasionally because it is an emotive subject at the moment. And therefore a good example.

I'm not afraid, my depression is for personal reasons, and I'm apathetic to the government, because to be honest, they aren't doing too bad, sure some things I'd like to change, but that's how it is

Why does it have to be 'how it is'?

I'm not starving, I have a roof, I have heat, and medical treatment. It's not so bad. Please don't speak for me

I didn't speak for you. I said IF you want change. That implies a choice on your part.

.lol, intelligence is not equal, I'm sorry, but people are not born the same in appearance, why act like brains are?

Brains are different. People are different. There are many facets of intelligence. Unfortunately our society is fixated on academic intelligence. Emotional intelligence is just as important. There are many ways to be intelligent.

Probably, but is your change the "right" change? ~sees everyone dressed in super colourful clothing, high off their heads~

My change proposes that everyone has the same rights and makes decisions based on the collective good of all, not just some.

Permabear

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Wurly

Permabear wrote: »

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Thanks for that link Permabear.

I think it is a very interesting concept. I like it because everyone is classed as equals and each person has a say.

Obviously everything would have to be decided via general consensus. But the problem now is that a lot of the issues I have highlighted have been done without our consent. And that is what I think needs to change.

Are you opposed to the occupy moment? And if so, could I ask why?

ressem

Sorry Wurly, the reason is...
hard problems are hard. Bundle them together and they become insolvable.
Each one has to be broken down, analyzed for how we think it works and checked for correctness, and solutions gradually grown till we find ones that work.

Can I suggest that we're looking for viable inspiration in each area?
And the reason we're so disappointed in politicians is that they promise this (e.g. New Era) but get dissuaded at the first hurdle.

What might be useful for a community + academia to do would be to take these theoretical projects, analyze the bejaysus out of it for flaws and to make the component parts easier to understand, try to run it on a small scale so politicians aren't so scared of it's failure.

Otherwise there is no-one but the corporations offering possibilities.

Corporations hoarding billions. They put that money in the Bahamas banks. They expect the banks to provide a return on deposits.
To whom and where are the Bahamas banks lending the money?

Energy? We're not sure yet what will work. Solar power was marketed far and wide, subsidised for roof installs, but it seems to be more resource hungry than other forms of energy generation.
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/531841/why-solar-is-much-more-costly-than-wind-or-hydro/

Food production / distribution / local market distortions.
Does providing cheap external food into a country where the majority of work is agricultural cause poverty and disruption?
The free marketers suggest that you need to give the locals the inspiration and backing to create services that people within and outside their country will trade for.
Those african / indian spammers and callers would carry out less criminal work if the company owner could see a demand for it.

Locally in Ireland, we've hundreds of square kilometers of land growing furze bushes, thousands of people idle, and the ECB trying to push money to 'the right projects' but no inspiration to create a viable plan for a crop or use for it.
Even if a 2,000 km^2 wind farm was placed here there should still be a use for the land beneath.

Flooding, in many cases we allowed infrastructure built by the british to clog up through neglect as our community didn't assign it importance worth paying for. A microcosm of the larger problems your describe.
If we knew the possible risk and price in advance we might be able to propose it as something that we'd be willing to pay towards.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Wurly wrote: »

makes decisions based on the collective good of all, not just some.

You see, that is what most governments have honestly tried to do but there is the rub. Collective good of all is impossible. Someone must gain and someone must lose or somebody somewhere won't be happy with the decision. The notion is pie in the sky. I'm sorry for sounding negative but having lived over 70 years, having been born into a family who had practically nothing and now living a comfortable life with all my needs and more, and having heard all your points raise themselves every 20 years or so while successive parties gave their ideas a lash I know you will never achieve good for all. The majority certainly, but not all. All in all I consider it a more equal and rich society today than n most of my lifetime.

Wurly

Jaelyn Tangy Newsstand wrote: »

You see, that is what most governments have honestly tried to do but there is the rub. Collective good of all is impossible. Someone must gain and someone must lose or somebody somewhere won't be happy with the decision. The notion is pie in the sky. I'm sorry for sounding negative but having lived over 70 years, having been born into a family who had practically nothing and now living a comfortable life with all my needs and more, and having heard all your points raise themselves every 20 years or so while successive parties gave their ideas a lash I know you will never achieve good for all. The majority certainly, but not all. All in all I consider it a more equal and rich society today than n most of my lifetime.

Yes but some people are having massive gains while others are having massive losses. All the while, the planet gets dessimated. So this is not a sustainable model we have here and it looks like change is inevitable for our survival.

looking_around

Wurly wrote: »

Indeed. I agree with you. However, there has been an increase in erratic weather patterns which contribute to flooding. Some are natural earth cycles. Some are related to our own pollution.

There's a bit of debate on that, many scientists believe it's just natural cycle, the earth has gone through dramatic weather changes long before humans.

All of these things cause people to feel worried. Worry is fearing the worst for the future. So it is actually fear. It's just called something else in this instance.

Yes, it;s called worry, use worry. And people aren't really that worried for their well being, just about not having everything as they are used to having it.

Encourage people to buy local where possible for foods they can receive here from small business. If we did that first step alone, it could make a huge difference.

Costs more, other than being out of pocket for the same produce, what do WE gain? local business flourish and maybe employ a couple of other people, while we're still less off?

Yes our waste does affect the problem. We are creating more of a supply due to our excessive consumption and wasteful attitude towards food.

Can't punish people for that, they have the money, they are entile to use their money as they choose to. What we buy isn't taking it from others. People starving would still be starving, just less would be grown and supplied.

You have exposed beautifully another problem with the current system. Inequality in the health care system. So how about a nominal fee for all instead of free for some and huge bills for others?

Why should someone who can't afford it pay the same as someone who can afford it? Why shouldn't people pay depending on their earnings. And I mean depending on net, with mortgage/necessities etc being calculated in and people and gradual increase rather than a cut off point.

My father, at one point in his life was diagnosed with 23 different mental disorders. The effects of which, I witnessed on a daily basis for 23 years of my life.

The changes have come about in the last 5 years. They are making changes that was point. What more do you want them to do? the can't change overnight. And there's no way anyone has "23 mental illness". you might want to check the records on that.

I previously suffered from clinical depression.

So? your point?
I am currently experience the public mental healthcare, my mother suffers from borderline personality disorder, and is also recieving help. Check the thread "lets all laugh at depression" and see just how many people have positive comments about the current mental health facilities. They have come a long way.

I have plenty more examples but I trust the above two suffice.

You just labled who had what, there's no examples or experiences out of, they show nothing at all.

I am absolutely thrilled that you are receiving the care you need. When I was depressed, I found the system to be appalling. So it's wonderful to know that people nowadays are getting cared for so well. I truly wish you the best for your recovery.

I repeat, my point is that it's IMPROVING, and can't change overnight.
When did they seek help, and did they take advantage of psychiatric nurses while on waiting lists? Many are told it'll be a 6 month waiting list, but you have a psychiatric nurse you can see weekly(and even daily in some cases.) and they do not. Not much the country can do in that case.

Agreed. However many other worthy causes received a hammering.

Such as? your idea of worthy cause, may not be mine.

Does that make it okay?

They can only do what they can do, they only have so much money, it doesn't grow on trees.

Why does it have to be 'how it is'?

because, it works.

I didn't speak for you. I said IF you want change. That implies a choice on your part.

multiple times you used the terms "us" "we" "you" , don't.

Brains are different. People are different. There are many facets of intelligence. Unfortunately our society is fixated on academic intelligence. Emotional intelligence is just as important. There are many ways to be intelligent.

So not all intelligence is equal, thanks for confirming my point.

My change proposes that everyone has the same rights and makes decisions based on the collective good of all, not just some.

That's what happens, by majority vote.

Sometimes the collective good, isn't best for some, you're asking people not to be selfish, it's a trait in the majority of people, even unintentionally.

Permabear

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renegademaster

Permabear wrote: »

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not one person in the galway occupy had an iphone, or a macbook, i can guarantee you that, pity you didn't come in and give a hand instead of takign such an ignorant view to excuse yourself of any obligation to try bring about some change like everything was rosey in the system

Wurly

renegademaster wrote: »

not one person in the galway occupy had an iphone, or a macbook, i can guarantee you that, pity you didn't come in and give a hand instead of takign such an ignorant view to excuse yourself of any obligation to try bring about some change like everything was rosey in the system

+1 I was involved with Galway occupy and also the one on Dame Street. I didn't see what Permabear saw either.

Permabear

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renegademaster

Permabear wrote: »

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and your point is?

Permabear

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Wurly

There are a few people on computers in that photo. A few people talking. A few people doing other things. Different people doing various things.

Do we know what they were working on? Research? Campaigns? Raising awareness? We can't say they weren't.

And they had stoves. So? The whole point was to 'occupy'. I mean, they need to eat....

What way do you think they should have protested instead? And if you don't agree to a person protesting in this movement, what should they have done instead to make their voices heard?

renegademaster

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

so you decided to keep your valuable experience to yourself and 3 years on you still don't see that you could have helped the few inexperienced here to maybe make a difference, instead you whinge on about iphones and macbooks

Permabear

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renegademaster

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

they were focusing on the banking frauds and a few other select subjects

Wurly

looking_around wrote: »

There's a bit of debate on that, many scientists believe it's just natural cycle, the earth has gone through dramatic weather changes long before humans.

So that gives us carte blanche to pollute the earth as we are doing?

Yes, it;s called worry, use worry. And people aren't really that worried for their well being, just about not having everything as they are used to having it.

Most people i know feel stifled in some way. That is their well-being. When people feel empowered, they want to give back. And everyone is happy. Worry is a facet of fear. It's like saying a slice of apple pie didn't come from the apple pie itself.

Costs more, other than being out of pocket for the same produce, what do WE gain? local business flourish and maybe employ a couple of other people, while we're still less off? Can't punish people for that, they have the money, they are entile to use their money as they choose to.

It's not about controlling people. it's educating them on the ethical and environmental implications of their purchases. A lot of people don't know about what companies like Coca Cola, Nestle, Pfizer and McDonalds do. They should research that and see if they still feel comfortable contributing to it.

What we buy isn't taking it from others. People starving would still be starving, just less would be grown and supplied.

No, that's not actually true. Do you have any idea how much we consume as a nation? it's colossal. And we produce a colossal amount of waste. Do you know where your food comes from? Where it is grown? How the workers were treated? Was the farmland stolen? What pesticides are you ingesting along with other potential poisons? Shouldn't you know these things?

Why should someone who can't afford it pay the same as someone who can afford it? Why shouldn't people pay depending on their earnings. And I mean depending on net, with mortgage/necessities etc being calculated in and people and gradual increase rather than a cut off point. The changes have come about in the last 5 years. They are making changes that was point. What more do you want them to do? the can't change overnight.

The change model that I want to see means an end to such a divide of wealth. There wouldn't be an instance of people not being able to afford it. I said 'nominal' fee as well.

And there's no way anyone has "23 mental illness". you might want to check the records on that.

In an effort to sidestep your increasing hostility towards me when you said "Do you actually KNOW of anyone with a mental illness", I decided to share a personal experience of mine. Looks like I shouldn't have bothered. Now you are picking holes in a legitimate personal experience of mine? How condescending, rude and offensive.

So? your point?
I am currently experience the public mental healthcare, my mother suffers from borderline personality disorder, and is also recieving help. Check the thread "lets all laugh at depression" and see just how many people have positive comments about the current mental health facilities. They have come a long way. You just labled who had what, there's no examples or experiences out of, they show nothing at all. I repeat, my point is that it's IMPROVING, and can't change overnight.
When did they seek help, and did they take advantage of psychiatric nurses while on waiting lists? Many are told it'll be a 6 month waiting list, but you have a psychiatric nurse you can see weekly(and even daily in some cases.) and they do not. Not much the country can do in that case. Such as? your idea of worthy cause, may not be mine. They can only do what they can do, they only have so much money, it doesn't grow on trees. because, it works.

Again I mentioned I too had suffered from depression as you had implied that I had no prior experience of mental illness. In fact, it was a mere effort on my behalf to create some rapport with you so as to dampen the hostility. I won't bother next time.

multiple times you used the terms "us" "we" "you"

Meaning humans. Humans have the right to choose for themselves. I never said they didn't.

So not all intelligence is equal, thanks for confirming my point.

Em, no. That's not what I said. I said there are many ways to be intelligent. I said society was fixated on one type of intelligence, whereas in reality there are many more than one. All forms of intelligence are useful and are of equal merit to humanity.

That's what happens, by majority vote.

Exactly. Except we don't have a majority vote. The government make decisions whether we reject them or not.

Sometimes the collective good, isn't best for some, you're asking people not to be selfish, it's a trait in the majority of people, even unintentionally.

We are all selfish. You are right. But we are being selfish at the expense of ourselves, our planet and other people. That selfishness should not ever be passed off as okay in my opinion!

looking_around

Wurly wrote: »

So that gives us carte blanche to pollute the earth as we are doing?

What are you doing to balance your polution? you're on baords, using electricity, is your internet provider balancing against pollution?

Most people i know feel stifled in some way. That is their well-being. When people feel empowered, they want to give back. And everyone is happy. Worry is a facet of fear. It's like saying a slice of apple pie didn't come from the apple pie itself.

I don't know this people, but ok.

It's not about controlling people. it's educating them on the ethical and environmental implications of their purchases. A lot of people don't know about what companies like Coca Cola, Nestle, Pfizer and McDonalds do. They should research that and see if they still feel comfortable contributing to it.

More people know than you give credit for, they choose not to care. People know all about battery hens, and still buy the cheapest of cheap eggs or chicken. Because that;s waht they want, cheap. Increasing their knowledge won't change the majority still just want what's cheaper.

No, that's not actually true. Do you have any idea how much we consume as a nation? it's colossal. And we produce a colossal amount of waste. Do you know where your food comes from? Where it is grown? How the workers were treated? Was the farmland stolen? What pesticides are you ingesting along with other potential poisons? Shouldn't you know these things?

I'm not too fussed to be totally honest. I can't afford to be fussy.

In an effort to sidestep your increasing hostility towards me when you said "Do you actually KNOW of anyone with a mental illness", I decided to share a personal experience of mine. Looks like I shouldn't have bothered. Now you are picking holes in a legitimate personal experience of mine? How condescending, rude and offensive.

Ok that explains you mentioning it. Your origional post comes across as if you didn't know. And you didn't know about current mental health improvements.

Meaning humans. Humans have the right to choose for themselves. I never said they didn't.

You want to control people wasting, that's controlling their choices.....

Em, no. That's not what I said. All forms of intelligence are useful and are of equal merit to humanity.

Actually what you said is we all have "equal intelligence". What should've been said, is all types of intelligence are equal.

We are all selfish. You are right. But we are being selfish at the expense of ourselves, our planet and other people. That selfishness should not ever be passed off as okay in my opinion!

It is what it is, the way the world functions will change dramatically, that change won't come from chatting on boards.

I'm not totally happy with life as it is. Ireland can't force other countries to cop on, and it's actually not one of the worst offenders.

diomed

We Really Don't Have To Do This Anymore...

........ Multiquote

Merrion

On Russell Brand: He is not the Messiah - he's a very naughty boy!

One eyed Jack

Merrion wrote: »

On Russell Brand: He is not the Messiah - he's a very naughty boy!

Ah but all this 'world inequality' and 'planetary devastation' is all a bit of a laugh really, with Russell and his 'expert in nothing' friend aping John Lennon and Yoko Ono by getting all 'gayness' in a bed in a plush New York hotel!

Nobody took it seriously then, and you can be sure as hell nobody is going to take it seriously now.

bb12

http://www.thrivemovement.com/followthemoneypyramid

this is the real structure of the world and how it is run...the rest of us are fools if we think we can make any real change.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

the evasion_kid

bb12 wrote: »

http://www.thrivemovement.com/followthemoneypyramid

this is the real structure of the world and how it is run...the rest of us are fools if we think we can make any real change.

http://www.retronaut.com/2012/03/the-pyramid-of-capitalism-1911/

ressem

Wurly wrote: »

So that gives us carte blanche to pollute the earth as we are doing?

It's not about controlling people. it's educating them on the ethical and environmental implications of their purchases. A lot of people don't know about what companies like Coca Cola, Nestle, Pfizer and McDonalds do. They should research that and see if they still feel comfortable contributing to it.

Do you know where your food comes from? Where it is grown? How the workers were treated? Was the farmland stolen? What pesticides are you ingesting along with other potential poisons? Shouldn't you know these things?

The change model that I want to see means an end to such a divide of wealth. There wouldn't be an instance of people not being able to afford it. I said 'nominal' fee as well.

Meaning humans. Humans have the right to choose for themselves. I never said they didn't.

Exactly. Except we don't have a majority vote. The government make decisions whether we reject them or not.

We are all selfish. You are right. But we are being selfish at the expense of ourselves, our planet and other people. That selfishness should not ever be passed off as okay in my opinion!

Expecting people to research everything from scratch is unreasonable; production supply chains are huge things. We have to create chains of trust that others are responsible with their share of the process.

It should be made more simple for people to trace the steps of the production procedure and get an honest and accurate report though.
And this is becoming closer to reality.
---

People should not blindly sign up to a manifesto to reduce their impact on the world.

Reducing the human populations impact on the world's ecosystem and resources has proposed solutions, some implemented. Going from

War / reduction of populations through denial of essentials.
1 child policies.
Banning non-essential carbon consuming transport.
Large scale geo-engineering
Growing GM crops in the desert / using saline water.
Using insects for protein, instead of large herbivores. (risking new disease transfers)
Pushing people into cities for efficiency and reducing people's footprint.
Nuclear power (France, India's thorium reactor projects, the ITER fusion proto-prototype).
No cosmetics / work saving cleaning chemicals.
Restricted antibiotics.

A government or organization that tried to get the majority of Irish people to sign up to any of these would be rejected.

The purpose of a government is to improve the livelihood of it's citizens; and over the last 40 years the Irish governments / public service have, despite including big mistakes.

Many of the systems that we have are due to a buildup of decisions that seemed sensible at the time.

e.g. even though it would be more environmentally stable to feed old food waste to pigs / poultry, instead they are fed crops as it makes it cheaper to certify the animals as disease free.

Iwasfrozen

bb12 wrote: »

http://www.thrivemovement.com/followthemoneypyramid

this is the real structure of the world and how it is run...the rest of us are fools if we think we can make any real change.

Come on you don't really believe that do you?

fr336

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

And again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WvAkhW-XNI

Valmont

Wurly, the only way you could know for certain that people are being selfish 'at the expense of themselves' would be if you were omnipotent. This is one of the cardinal mistakes made by those who favour an all powerful state structure: that they and their ideological brethren know best what other people need and want. It is an arrogant, baseless, irrational, and ultimately dangerous position to hold. Political dissenters in the Soviet Union didn't know what was best for themselves either, so the Soviet psychiatrists locked them in up in mental hospitals to cure them of their harmful opinions. This also ties in nicely with the point somebody made earlier about 'changing the people' - something Pol Pot sought to do but realised you probably just need to kill most of them and get to their children instead. Our current political system has failed us, no doubt about that - but that does not mean the only solution is to have some benevolent strong-man (sorry, benevolent consensus-builders) of the people take ultimate control.

KomradeBishop

This thread started off as an attempt to discuss the various problems mentioned in the OP, and to try and discuss solutions to them - I don't think anyone outside of Libertarians, want to debate the merits of selfishness, even when it leads to societally-self-harming behaviour, like perpetuating climate-change.

People seem to be taking issue with the OP (and are getting very hostile - accusing the OP of narcissism and such, and getting increasingly condescending), simply because she seems to subscribe to a different ethical framework, which is not compatible with putting selfishness at the center of ethics.

There's nothing narcissistic or dismissive, in assuming (as the basis of this whole debate) that people hold ethical views compatible with her own - it's the basis of this debate, that posters assume the problems the OP describes, are bad things - otherwise no debate can be had as people will just argue over the fundamentals/ethics (which seems to be what is happening).

The hypocrisy there is staggering as well - people who put self-interest at the center of ethics, accusing someone else of narcissism...


I don't think anyone here cares to try and win over people, who subscribe to an ethical framework based on self-interest - they are a tiny minority, and agreeing-to-disagree (because the two ethical frameworks are totally incompatible, making debate almost impossible) is the only way to stop that tanking the thread.
I also don't think anyone who subscribes to that ethical framework, are going to win anyone over into that framework - trying to turn this thread into that, also prevents discussing the topic the OP is trying to discuss.

It would be nice to actually see a discussion of the problems the OP describes, and solutions to those problems - not attacks on people, for holding mutually incompatible ethical/moral frameworks.

sheesh

bb12 wrote: »

http://www.thrivemovement.com/followthemoneypyramid

this is the real structure of the world and how it is run...the rest of us are fools if we think we can make any real change.

Why does it look like a paranoid conspiracy site?

why would the fact that David Icke is involved might be an indicator

alias no.9

Wurly wrote: »

Yes but let's not blame each other. We are all legitimately doing the best we can with the information that we've got. Now that new information is emerging, we can make different choices.

Let's not blame each other, because it must be someone else's fault! All revolution has ever done is replace one set of elite with another. The current system for all of its faults does allow anybody run for office.

Also, taking this macro view of the world you seem to want us all to take, you are part of the pampered privileged elite.

Wurly

KomradeBishop wrote: »

This thread started off as an attempt to discuss the various problems mentioned in the OP, and to try and discuss solutions to them - I don't think anyone outside of Libertarians, want to debate the merits of selfishness, even when it leads to societally-self-harming behaviour, like perpetuating climate-change.

People seem to be taking issue with the OP (and are getting very hostile - accusing the OP of narcissism and such, and getting increasingly condescending), simply because she seems to subscribe to a different ethical framework, which is not compatible with putting selfishness at the center of ethics.

There's nothing narcissistic or dismissive, in assuming (as the basis of this whole debate) that people hold ethical views compatible with her own - it's the basis of this debate, that posters assume the problems the OP describes, are bad things - otherwise no debate can be had as people will just argue over the fundamentals/ethics (which seems to be what is happening).

The hypocrisy there is staggering as well - people who put self-interest at the center of ethics, accusing someone else of narcissism...


I don't think anyone here cares to try and win over people, who subscribe to an ethical framework based on self-interest - they are a tiny minority, and agreeing-to-disagree (because the two ethical frameworks are totally incompatible, making debate almost impossible) is the only way to stop that tanking the thread.
I also don't think anyone who subscribes to that ethical framework, are going to win anyone over into that framework - trying to turn this thread into that, also prevents discussing the topic the OP is trying to discuss.

It would be nice to actually see a discussion of the problems the OP describes, and solutions to those problems - not attacks on people, for holding mutually incompatible ethical/moral frameworks.

Yeah, you know what? I'm over it.

Thanks to everyone for the PM's. I appreciate your time, your suggestions and support.

To be honest, this has been a huge wake up call for me. I thought everyone wanted to save the planet. I thought everyone was sick of governments taking the p1ss. How wrong I was. It seems the mere notion of questioning it causes people to go on a witch hunt.

I don't get it. I don't get the hostility, the ignorance and the incessant need to just fight about nothing to make yourselves look intelligent. You are already intelligent. You don't have to be rude to make your point.

Anyways, no matter what I say, someone nit picks at it. So i'm outta here. I feel like I can't have a proper conversation with most here without it turning nasty. No doubt this post will be picked apart as well. It's just so boring and nonsensical to me.

So, thanks for your contributions everyone. I will continue to be conscientious as much as possible in my own life.

renegademaster

Wurly wrote: »

Yeah, you know what? I'm over it.

Thanks to everyone for the PM's. I appreciate your time, your suggestions and support.

To be honest, this has been a huge wake up call for me. I thought everyone wanted to save the planet. I thought everyone was sick of governments taking the p1ss. How wrong I was. It seems the mere notion of questioning it causes people to go on a witch hunt.

I don't get it. I don't get the hostility, the ignorance and the incessant need to just fight about nothing to make yourselves look intelligent. You are already intelligent. You don't have to be rude to make your point.

Anyways, no matter what I say, someone nit picks at it. So i'm outta here. I feel like I can't have a proper conversation with most here without it turning nasty. No doubt this post will be picked apart as well. It's just so boring and nonsensical to me.

So, thanks for your contributions everyone. I will continue to be conscientious as much as possible in my own life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMUiwTubYu0

The world is like a ride in an amusement park, and when you choose to go on it you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. The ride goes up and down, around and around, it has thrills and chills, and it's very brightly colored, and it's very loud, and it's fun for a while. Many people have been on the ride a long time, and they begin to wonder, "Hey, is this real, or is this just a ride?" And other people have remembered, and they come back to us and say, "Hey, don't worry; don't be afraid, ever, because this is just a ride." And we … kill those people. "Shut him up! I've got a lot invested in this ride, shut him up! Look at my furrows of worry, look at my big bank account, and my family. This has to be real." It's just a ride. But we always kill the good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok … But it doesn't matter, because it's just a ride. And we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings of money. Just a simple choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.

Davarus Walrus

renegademaster wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMUiwTubYu0

Using Bill Hicks videos as an alternative to actually making a point really negates any argument you have. He was a fat man smoking cigarettes and shouting loudly.

renegademaster

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

Using Bill Hicks videos as an alternative to actually making a point really negates any argument you have. He was a fat man smoking cigarettes and shouting loudly.

i wasn't arguing :pac:

Wompa1

Wurly wrote: »

Yeah, you know what? I'm over it.

Thanks to everyone for the PM's. I appreciate your time, your suggestions and support.

To be honest, this has been a huge wake up call for me. I thought everyone wanted to save the planet. I thought everyone was sick of governments taking the p1ss. How wrong I was. It seems the mere notion of questioning it causes people to go on a witch hunt.

I don't get it. I don't get the hostility, the ignorance and the incessant need to just fight about nothing to make yourselves look intelligent. You are already intelligent. You don't have to be rude to make your point.

Anyways, no matter what I say, someone nit picks at it. So i'm outta here. I feel like I can't have a proper conversation with most here without it turning nasty. No doubt this post will be picked apart as well. It's just so boring and nonsensical to me.

So, thanks for your contributions everyone. I will continue to be conscientious as much as possible in my own life.

Will you increase my dole or decrease it?

Valmont

Wurly wrote: »

Anyways, no matter what I say, someone nit picks at it. So i'm outta here.

If you don't like people 'nitpicking' on a discussion forum then maybe twitter would be more up your alley?

Wurly

Wurly wrote: »

No doubt this post will be picked apart as well.

Valmont wrote: »

If you don't like people 'nitpicking' on a discussion forum then maybe twitter would be more up your alley?

I rest my case.

Jester252

Wurly wrote: »

Yeah, you know what? I'm over it.

Thanks to everyone for the PM's. I appreciate your time, your suggestions and support.

To be honest, this has been a huge wake up call for me. I thought everyone wanted to save the planet. I thought everyone was sick of governments taking the p1ss. How wrong I was. It seems the mere notion of questioning it causes people to go on a witch hunt.

I don't get it. I don't get the hostility, the ignorance and the incessant need to just fight about nothing to make yourselves look intelligent. You are already intelligent. You don't have to be rude to make your point.

Anyways, no matter what I say, someone nit picks at it. So i'm outta here. I feel like I can't have a proper conversation with most here without it turning nasty. No doubt this post will be picked apart as well. It's just so boring and nonsensical to me.

So, thanks for your contributions everyone. I will continue to be conscientious as much as possible in my own life.

So your have given up because not everyone wanted to follow your ideal sociality of hypocrisy.

I am pie

The ignorant arrogance of Brand is breathtaking. I suggest he comes to South America and explains to brazilian and colombian coffee producers, argentine soy producer, uruguayan beef producers that they can no longer create crops for export and have to sell everything locally. Once they agree, find themselves and million of their dependent workers in abject poverty and without any adequate government structures in place to help them beyond his woolly spritualism I imagine they will all be queuing up to buy into his blythe statements about spiritual enlightment.

All African exporters will be delighted to know they aren't to have any income from export and China will delighted to know that they are to return to a subsistence based lifestyle of poverty and hardship.

Notable that is not practical for this privileged new age merchant of vague spiritualism to reliniquish his own personal fortune until such times as the world has agreed with him about the need to return to barter and subsistence farming.

I am only surprised he hasn't taken one step further and insisted that we do away with division of labour and return to the days before farming and settled communities.

His claim to have seen the light for the world because he managed to overcome his own personal addictions reveals a messiah complex of breathtaking scale.

An entertaining comedian, a horrible political philosopher.

Wurly

Jester252 wrote: »

So your have given up because not everyone wanted to follow your ideal sociality of hypocrisy.

No i'm just sick of people just interested in arguing. I am only interested in change.

Now i'm not going to stay involved in something where people are only interested in arguing and not contributing. So i'm going to leave it there.

You can think what you like as far as i'm concerned. That's entirely your prerogative.

This just doesn't feel like a constructive environment to have this discussion anymore so i'm taking myself away from it, as is my prerogative.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Wurly wrote: »

I rest my case.

But that has been the problem since the OP. There was no case. Just feigned interest in a discussion followed by dismissal of anything not to your liking. A hodgepodge of issues thrown out there with no joined up thinking in the questioning. Any divergence from a "revolutionary" stance was met with a condescending comment that you wanted to change things for our good - even if we don't want it changed - because we don't seem to understand how wrong our view of life is.

Perhaps a single issue discussion might have been more productive. But then again that wouldn't really suit After Hours.
Case rested and the jury is hung. I declare a mistrial.

I am pie

OP: - I am interested in change, but not opinions or discussion.

Democracy evidently not your cup of tea.

Wurly

Jaelyn Tangy Newsstand wrote: »

But that has been the problem since the OP. There was no case. Just feigned interest in a discussion followed by dismissal of anything not to your liking. A hodgepodge of issues throw out there with no joined up thinking in the questioning. Any divergence from a "revolutionary" stance was met with a condescending comment that you wanted to change things for our good - even if we don't want it changed - because we don't seem to understand how wrong our view of life is.

Perhaps a single issue discussion might have been more productive. But then again that wouldn't really suit After Hours.
Case rested and the jury is hung. I declare a mistrial.

Well i'm sorry, if we don't have a planet to live on, then we're all f*cked!!

The fact that the planet is in real trouble is a fact - whether you want to look at climate change or just pollution in general. That's why I said I wanted change for everyone. Because everyone lives on the planet.

I asked for ideas to work on that non-disputable fact. Instead, every single point I made was ripped apart. I'm not p!ssing on anyone's beliefs. But to the most argumentative on this thread, I have not seen one idea brought forward to stop the destruction of our planet.

I said from the very beginning that I Don't Have All The Answers!!!!!!! I was asking for a brainstorm of sorts. Not trying to make myself out to be anything but looking for solutions.

So, instead, people decided to fight with me. One person even questioned the validity of my father's illness. Am I expected to stay around for that crap? What the f*ck is that gonna solve? This is not the reason I started the thread - for lots of petty arguing. But it's pretty clear that that's the way it's headed. So i'm done.

My point was that the people controlling us are making bad decisions and shouldn't we do something? Who actually agrees with a lot of the things happening as listed in my OP?

So yes, lots of small issues that come under the umbrella of one big issue - the people making our decisions!!!!!

But whatever. I'm wasting my time even explaining myself at this stage.

looking_around

Wurly wrote: »

Well i'm sorry, if we don't have a planet to live on, then we're all f*cked!!

The fact that the planet is in real trouble is a fact - whether you want to look at climate change or just pollution in general. That's why I said I wanted change for everyone. Because everyone lives on the planet.

I asked for ideas to work on that non-disputable fact. Instead, every single point I made was ripped apart. I'm not p!ssing on anyone's beliefs. But to the most argumentative on this thread, I have not seen one idea brought forward to stop the destruction of our planet. Instead, people decided to fight with me. What the f*ck is that gonna solve? This is not the reason I started the thread. But it's pretty clear that that's the way it's headed. So i'm done.

My point was that the people controlling us are making bad decisions and shouldn't we do something? Who actually agrees a lot of the things happening in my OP?

So yes, lots of small issues that come under the umbrella of one big issue - the people making our decisions!!!!!

But whatever. I'm wasting my time even explaining myself at this stage.

Not a regular of after hours, I see.

If you can't hold on to your points, or explain them, they weren't strong points in the first place.

Also,..you come to after hours to push for "change". I asked before, what are YOU doing for the planet?

Wurly

looking_around wrote: »

Not a regular of after hours, I see.

If you can't hold on to your points, or explain them, they weren't strong points in the first place.

Also,..you come to after hours to push for "change". I asked before, what are YOU doing for the planet?

I've answered your question already. Please don't make out like I haven't.

Again - just trying to cause arguments than contributing with ideas of your own.

Anyways, this is well and truly my last post on this thread. So, best of luck.