Fear aggressive dog

sparxx89

Hi guys,

Just wondering if anyone had any experience with this issue. I have a 2 year old female springer spaniel (neutered). We got her at 13 weeks, a little later than normal. I don't think she was properly socialised as a young puppy.

She's EXTREMELY nervous of people. At the start she would cowar behind me if someone approached, then she progressed to growling and finally lunging. This behaviour is mainly when someone comes into the house. She also has separation anxiety.

She has absolutely no problem with other dogs, just people. She goes to "day care" twice a week and gets on fine with the dogs and trainers there. When we're out for a walk, if she's off the lead and someone approaches, she just runs in the opposite direction or back to me which is fine. She used to lunge at people on the lead if they got too close but we've managed to tame that now and she's fine, she'll walk past them.
She'll do anything at all I ask her to from waiting for food, treats, getting down off furniture, sitting, staying, tricks, and has excellent recall. Anything until the doorbell rings!

We've been working with a behaviourist who is excellent and I've seen improvement in a lot of things that needed working on.The visitors coming to the house is still a huge problem. We're trying to crate train her which is working well until the door bell goes. She had a really bad accident last week, my dad, without thinking put her behind a glass door while a maintenance guy was in the garden, she saw him, lunged at the glass, it smashed and she needed stitches. Thankfully she wasn't too injured but it really shows what a state she can get into.

I told the behaviourist about the accident and she's coming back this week for a follow up. She mentioned that my dog may need some anti anxiety drugs to aid with training.- has anyone ever used these? (Not sure which kind or anything) we have tried all other remedies and gadgets with little or no effect.

When we collected her from the vet I spoke to him about it and asked about anti anxiety medication- he just dismissed it and said that if she was his, he'd probably put her to sleep. This was really disheartening to hear from a vet.

Any help or advice on anti- anxiety medication or anything that I've mentioned above would be greatly appreciated. Sorry for the novel of a post, but I just wanted to get in as much info as possible.

Thanks

Whispered

Firstly, did your behaviourist ask for a vet check on her? Full blood works etc?

Don't loose heart. You sound like you're doing really well

DBB

It's great to hear that you've made progress and are getting help. Sometimes, if a dog's fear is so intense that it's blocking learning altogether, anti-anxiety meds need to be drafted in.
However, it is absolutely down to your vet which meds to choose, because all of them involve careful consideration of effect, and particularly side-effects, the latter so important because most psychoactive drugs can have a disinhibitory affect on aggressive behaviour, albeit temporary. This of course presents potential safety issues until the drugs kick in. You also need to be aware that most psychoactive drugs take a number of weeks to start working, which can be quite demoralising for an unsuspecting owner.
And this is where you're going to run into problems with your vet, with that attitude he has. So, for me, the first step I would take would be to change vets. When you're using psychoactive drugs, you must, must, must have a vet who's totally on board, who really understands those effects and side-effects, and who would be prepared to work with your behaviourist to discuss the pros and cons of each.
Another possible option, and not wanting to step on your behaviourist's toes, is to try one of the new-ish nutraceutical products which are available off-prescription. There is some evidence to suggest that products like Zylkene, and Harmonease (hard to get outside the US, I think), and products containing L-tryptophan, are just about as effective as some of the pharmaceuticals at reducing anxiety and fear. They don't tend to have the side-effects either.
Were it my dog, I would try one of these first, before making the ultimate leap of going down the medication route. Again, you need to chat with your vet and behaviourist about taking this step, just so everyone is kept in the loop.
But after all the work you've put in, and all the progress you've made, you seem to have the bulk of the problem well managed. And so on this alone, one thing I would not procrastinate on is your vet! Find a new one!

sparxx89

DBB wrote: »

It's great to hear that you've made progress and are getting help. Sometimes, if a dog's fear is so intense that it's blocking learning altogether, anti-anxiety meds need to be drafted in.
However, it is absolutely down to your vet which meds to choose, because all of them involve careful consideration of effect, and particularly side-effects, the latter so important because most psychoactive drugs can have a disinhibitory affect on aggressive behaviour, albeit temporary. This of course presents potential safety issues until the drugs kick in. You also need to be aware that most psychoactive drugs take a number of weeks to start working, which can be quite demoralising for an unsuspecting owner.
And this is where you're going to run into problems with your vet, with that attitude he has. So, for me, the first step I would take would be to change vets. When you're using psychoactive drugs, you must, must, must have a vet who's totally on board, who really understands those effects and side-effects, and who would be prepared to work with your behaviourist to discuss the pros and cons of each.
Another possible option, and not wanting to step on your behaviourist's toes, is to try one of the new-ish nutraceutical products which are available off-prescription. There is some evidence to suggest that products like Zylkene, and Harmonease (hard to get outside the US, I think), and products containing L-tryptophan, are just about as effective as some of the pharmaceuticals at reducing anxiety and fear. They don't tend to have the side-effects either.
Were it my dog, I would try one of these first, before making the ultimate leap of going down the medication route. Again, you need to chat with your vet and behaviourist about taking this step, just so everyone is kept in the loop.
But after all the work you've put in, and all the progress you've made, you seem to have the bulk of the problem well managed. And so on this alone, one thing I would not procrastinate on is your vet! Find a new one!

Thanks a lot. I really appreciate the reassurance too as I don't want to give up on her as she's fantastic with everyone she's comfortable with and so affectionate.

I appreciate your advice on the alternate route. I have been looking into L-tryptophan and it sounds like a good idea. Especially because she is very trainable so it might do the trick. I'll mention this to the behaviourist this week.

The vet in question is a vet in the surgery she goes to but actually doesn't treat her, he just happened to be there when I collected her after her stitches. I just felt stupid for even asking him, he said he had a really hyper lab once who was too boisterous around his kids so he just put him down, it really alarmed me that a vet could do that! Anyway The vet who normally does look after her would probably be more open minded as she recommended the behaviourist to me and is very sensitive towards my dogs anxiety. The behaviourist is going to get in touch with the vet before coming back to the house. If the natural route doesn't work and it's a last resort & the vet isn't on board I'll absolutely change vet.

As for blood work, I'll also discuss this. One of the suggestions from the behaviourist was that she was spayed at the wrong time. She may have just been about to go into heat and then we got her neutered, therefore "freezing" her hormone levels- this would make sense however she has always been a nervous dog.

Thanks so much for the replies, the reassurance really means a lot as I've been worried sick about it since talking with the vet.

DBB

Good to hear that you've a more reliable regular vet... The other fella sounds too quick to pull the trigger
Just on the neutering thing, that operation can't "freeze" the hormones that are present, because by its very nature the source of female hormones is removed when the ovaries are removed.
However, fearful bitches who have used aggression to stave off problems are more likely to get worse after spaying, especially if spayed young, perhaps due to the naturally-produced low levels of testosterone produced by the adrenal cortex even in females, having a chance to express itself in the absence of the female hormones.
But if she's always been nervous, spaying her was not the cause of her aggression... It might be a contributor for the above reason, but not a cause. Nervous, fearful pups tend to get more aggressive as they leave puppyhood and reach young adulthood anyway, simply as a function of experience and learning.

sparxx89

DBB wrote: »

Good to hear that you've a more reliable regular vet... The other fella sounds too quick to pull the trigger
Just on the neutering thing, that operation can't "freeze" the hormones that are present, because by its very nature the source of female hormones is removed when the ovaries are removed.
However, fearful bitches who have used aggression to stave off problems are more likely to get worse after spaying, especially if spayed young, perhaps due to the naturally-produced low levels of testosterone produced by the adrenal cortex even in females, having a chance to express itself in the absence of the female hormones.
But if she's always been nervous, spaying her was not the cause of her aggression... It might be a contributor for the above reason, but not a cause. Nervous, fearful pups tend to get more aggressive as they leave puppyhood and reach young adulthood anyway, simply as a function of experience and learning.

Yeah that makes sense. I think what she meant was her hormone levels weren't right at the time of spaying. She didn't show any signs of aggression before the operation, just fear. I suppose I could spend forever thinking about what caused it, or could accept that she's just very nervous by nature. Either way I'm determined to help the problem. I know she'll never be the type of dog that bounds towards a stranger for a tummy rub, but if she could maybe just be calmer while visitors are in the house, that would be fine!!

Thanks again, appreciate your insight and advice- will definitely be taken on board.

boomerang

You needn't ever give up on her OP. My girl was just like yours and we had eleven beautiful years together before cancer took her. It took a lot of careful management to keep her safe but she was my best friend and there will never be another dog that I will love so deeply.

That vet is just shocking!

sparxx89

boomerang wrote: »

You needn't ever give up on her OP. My girl was just like yours and we had eleven beautiful years together before cancer took her. It took a lot of careful management to keep her safe but she was my best friend and there will never be another dog that I will love so deeply.

That vet is just shocking!

Boomerang, you've made my day. That's so reassuring to hear because sometimes I think I've done something wrong in the training. It's good to know I'm not the only dog owner having to work this hard!..
So sorry that you lost her but I'm sure you gave her a wonderful life.

aonb

This might sound trivial, but it definately helped us in a similarish situation - we disconnected our doorbell and put up a little sign to just knock! Our dog used to go demented when he heard that doorbell, making anything we tried to do once that blasted chime sounded totally futile. At least when he heard someone knocking at the door - once the bell didnt ring and was going bonkers - we could do a bit of sit/stay/treat as we went down the hall to answer the door.

Sometimes you can find solutions around your dogs issues which help the human by taking the pressure off - wish you the very best of luck with your dog - sounds like you are making progress which is great - for both of you

sparxx89

aonb wrote: »

This might sound trivial, but it definately helped us in a similarish situation - we disconnected our doorbell and put up a little sign to just knock! Our dog used to go demented when he heard that doorbell, making anything we tried to do once that blasted chime sounded totally futile. At least when he heard someone knocking at the door - once the bell didnt ring and was going bonkers - we could do a bit of sit/stay/treat as we went down the hall to answer the door.

Sometimes you can find solutions around your dogs issues which help the human by taking the pressure off - wish you the very best of luck with your dog - sounds like you are making progress which is great - for both of you

That's actually a fantastic idea. Not trivial at all- it makes perfect sense. She associates the doorbell with a bad experience so by taking that away, it takes away the pre cursor for "something bad is going to happen". Thanks!

ShaShaBear

Aonb just got there before I did, was also about to say... have you thought about losing the doorbell
Hopefully it works!

aonb

anyone got any experience or information or comments on homeopathetic/herbal remedies for dogs issues? Specifically I refer to this:

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/natural-herbal-help-for-fearful-dogs/?inf_contact_key=361055cc7cc84e75abe7f4db7f34016f149285b8982feb3a00e17d12db53c571

Rigsby

sparxx89 wrote: »

It's good to know I'm not the only dog owner having to work this hard!..

Another dog owner here with a similar problem. My wife and I got a two year old male (neutered) Shih Tzu last year. He had not been socialised as a puppy. At first, we had similar problems to yourself. While out walking on the lead he would lunge at passers by, joggers, cyclists, cars etc. Also, he does not get along with other dogs.

We too, sought the help of a behaviourist. In a nutshell, what we were told to do was to reward good behavior. When we were approaching another person I would take out a treat and try to divert his attention. If he did not lunge he got the reward. He has now come to associate a passer by with something good. He was badly under weight when rescued so food is his number one priority. This has been great with regards his training. He is fine now with people, but unfortunately still wont let another dog come close to him. However, he is not as anxious as he used to be when meeting his own kind. He just prefers them to keep their distance.

Having said the above, he is a great pet and we love him to bits.


The point of my post....you are not alone.

sparxx89

Thanks Rigby. I'm going to buy a bumbag (fashion statement or what! ) and keep treats in it and take it out when visitors arrive, so hopefully that will change the association with something positive in the same way as you did. Thanks for your reply!

We had a breakthrough on Monday night, visitors arrived (shock horror!) to my amazement, she wasn't phased by the men, only one lady I asked my friend to sit down and not make eye contact with the dog, I then put my cardigan over the guests lap. I brought the dog in on the lead, she gave a few warning barks, kept her distance. Throughout the night, she went over to the cardigan and sniffed around, she did it a few times and I left a trail of treats on the ground leading to my friend. Any time my friend made eye contact, she barked a little. We left more treats and then I got my friend to hold some chicken in her hand under the table and not look at the dog, and she took it from her and licked her hand for ages. As long as eye contact wasn't made she was totally calm.

In saying all this, she is on sedatives for her injury as mentioned in my first post, but I have only been giving her a third of the dosage the vet recommended as she was totally floored with the full dose. Still though, if she learned visitors weren't a threat while being calm, it could aid with the training. We have a follow up with the behaviourist tomorrow evening, I will let you know how it goes

Whispered

It sounds like she did really well. And well done to you too! Just be careful using food to lure a fearful dog to a person, sometimes what happens is the dog is tempted by the food, distracted from the thing it fears, gets to the thing (or in this case person), eats the food and suddenly is no longer distracted and is overcome by fear. You're definately heading in the right direction though - well done!

Just on another note - and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most behaviorists need a vet check (incl. bloods) before doing any behaviour work? Be careful that you're using someone with relevant qualifications and training.

chrysagon

I had the same problem to a degree, when i got my pup, snapped and growled at visitors, howling and barking in utility room at night etc, but i used the tap on the nose/treat approach that a friend who was into training dogs for shows as well as security dogs, and it took a bit of time and patience, twelve years later shes still great,never had a problem the last decade, altho shes now liable to leave a visitor covered in dog saliva, thru excitment and play, but wouldnt change a thing, a great friend who just loves a cuddle, the more i see off people, the more i appreciate my dog!

DBB

OP, I'm pretty sure you'll take the advice above to tap the dog on the nose as the unfounded, potentially damaging, outdated information that it is... I get the impression that your behaviourist is giving you appropriate advice that does not involve any physically punitive methods by you. As you'll know, your dog is fearful of strangers. Tapping her on the nose when they arrive is very likely to worsen the situation.

@Whispered, re getting veterinary check up prior to behaviour work, in an ideal world, all dogs with behavioural problems would be fully vet-checked prior to behavioural intervention, but realistically, many owners are really put off going through with spending hundreds on vet checks, followed by more money on the behaviourist, and there's a risk they'll do neither.
Now, you do get to know the cases where there is a very possible medical contributor or cause, and these are easier to convince the owner to get the dog vet-checked first. But there are also many cases where you know it's really unlikely to be medical... The history fits with it being entirely behavioural, and most owners know this too. Asking *some* of these owners to get health checks done before any attempts at behaviour modification are done can be counter-productive and can make the owner kinda doubt you!
In OP's case, the dog has always been scared, my guess is that it's a combination of genetics (I'll bet mam or dad were nervy dogs), and/or lack of early exposure to strangers (prior to12 weeks of age). There's also probably other things contributing to the problem. But yes, there is also a question mark over whether there could be an underlying health problem going on... A thyroid problem for example. It's not a huge question mark for me, given the much greater likelihood it's the other two factors, and given that behavioural modification is helping, but if she were my dog at this point I'd be thinking of getting blood tests done.
So yes, ideal world vs real world... I suppose experience along with qualifications helps behaviourists tread that line reasonably well!

sparxx89

Whispered wrote: »

It sounds like she did really well. And well done to you too! Just be careful using food to lure a fearful dog to a person, sometimes what happens is the dog is tempted by the food, distracted from the thing it fears, gets to the thing (or in this case person), eats the food and suddenly is no longer distracted and is overcome by fear. You're definately heading in the right direction though - well done!

Just on another note - and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most behaviorists need a vet check (incl. bloods) before doing any behaviour work? Be careful that you're using someone with relevant qualifications and training.

Well I was sitting right beside the guest and I told her to just ignore her if she came close, maybe she was coming towards me though. The behaviourist advised not to get the guests to give her treats, but she was actually sort of begging as we were eating at the time. I also kept a very close eye on my dogs body language which she displays a lot of before lunging or barking etc while she was approaching the guest. She didn't stiffen up, tail was out, and no "whale eye" so I thought it would be safe.

My dog had just been to the vet before we got the behaviourist to the house as it's one of her requirements, that the dog has a checkup. No blood work was carried out as far as I know. I had requested in the past that they carried out some but they didn't feel it was necessary. This is the second behaviourist so I checked up on her credentials (Dog training Diploma, Post Grad Companion Animal Behaviour Counselling and is a member of a number of organisations) she was also recommended by the vet. I'm happy with her plan so far, and she seemed to have a very good understanding of just how nervous my dog was when she came to the house.

sparxx89

So the behaviourist came last night and said she noticed a great difference. Before she couldn't make eye contact with my dog or make hand movements and this time the dog sat beside her, and gave her chicken from her hand and let her pet her. The only time my dog barked was when the lady stood up and walked, but she was fine with hand movements and her voice and eye contact this time. Little by little I guess . She also got in touch with my vet to discuss natural anti anxiety drugs as well as prescription ones. The vet (not the same one that wanted to put my dog down!) was very open and said she would be happy to work with me and the behaviourist. I have to say, I'm really delighted with everything- I'm feeling hopeful and it's great to see the training is working. Thanks again for all your replies and advice!

DBB

Brilliant op!
Your behaviourist came across in your posts as good and competent, it just goes to show how important it is to get someone who's qualified and knowledgeable
Well done, lots of work done (and more to come!)

Whispered

Yey! Brilliant. It must be a great relief.

DBB wrote: »

Your behaviourist came across in your posts as good and competent, it just goes to show how important it is to get someone who's qualified and knowledgeable

Absolutely! I mentioned it because there is a man who was trading as a behaviourist in my area. Loads of people used him and the local vet recommends him. long story short, he is not a behaviorist and his actions directly lead to the death of a beautiful young fearful dog, when I told him how shocked I was, having met the dog, that he recommended PTS he told me it was the third that year :mad:. So glad you did your research and got someone who can help.