Eircom to roll out 1Gb/s FTTH to 66 towns

ED E

swoofer wrote: »

out of interest, i know the access point for eircom cabling is along the back of a line of houses ie there is a small access point in each garden. The copper cable runs to the NTU on an outside wall , the box is neatly fitted into wall so that the existing cable comes down the cavity into box!! I have cable running up one cavity from a room used as an office, into and across attic and into cavity to NTU. Does this mean the fibre will be spliced at NTU and I will need to run it across attic??

The box outside is the ETU. They'll run it to there, drill a hole and terminate on the inside of the same wall. Thats where the ONT goes, after that its your deal.

Nickindublin wrote: »

It seems that Eircom have enabled E Fibre in the cabinet beside us. When i enter the numbers on the Eircom site for business's beside us and across the road they say it has been enabled But when i put in our number it says its not been enabled. Would that have anything to do with us having our business landline with Three? The business right beside us is an Eircom customer and they are fibre enabled.

Wrong thread bud. eFibre is FTTC, this is for FTTH.

Three DSL is eircom though, so your line may bypass the cab.

Praetorian

ED E wrote: »

They need to run it up into manholes outside premises first, then feed up to the houses from there. Id say they'll do areas or estates in one go, then come back to the appointments as a separate works order.

Grand, the Eircom manhole is at the bottom of my driveway

swoofer

Thanks for reply.

@ed e does that mean the customer runs the new fibre cable internally? Or will it be the old copper cable for the last few feet? I cant see eircom going into lofts etc

In my case if they drill a hole like you say it will be in a garage!! And router location elsewhere!! ie a long way away

I'd buy my own bit of fibre but may have to save up!

Nollog

swoofer wrote: »

Thanks for reply.

@ed e does that mean the customer runs the new fibre cable internally? Or will it be the old copper cable for the last few feet? I cant see eircom going into lofts etc

In my case if they drill a hole like you say it will be in a garage!! And router location elsewhere!! ie a long way away

I'd buy my own bit of fibre but may have to save up!

It'll be just a new wire coming into your house, and into a shiny new Huawei ONT, otherwise, it'll be a big Huawei ONT outside your house, mounted on a wall, with a wire likely coming into your house into a shiny Huawei router.

Depends how they go about it and if the pictures I found on google for Huawei's ONT's are really that small.

mass_debater

swoofer wrote: »

I'd buy my own bit of fibre but may have to save up!

Fibre is cheap, much cheaper than copper. Attaching it to poles and pushing it through ducts is the expensive bit

Its Only Ray Parlour

mass_debater wrote: »

Fibre is cheap, much cheaper than copper. Attaching it to poles and pushing it through ducts is the expensive bit

Digging up roads and footpaths is the expensive bit.

ED E

swoofer wrote: »

Thanks for reply.

@ed e does that mean the customer runs the new fibre cable internally? Or will it be the old copper cable for the last few feet? I cant see eircom going into lofts etc

In my case if they drill a hole like you say it will be in a garage!! And router location elsewhere!! ie a long way away

I'd buy my own bit of fibre but may have to save up!

The same fibre runs from splitter (at cab or manhole) all the way into the interior wall behind your ETU, wherever that happens to be. They drill a hole and shove in 3-4ft of fibre and fit that into an internal optical faceplate. The ONT is mounted beside this. They fit it there, it stays there. After that they don't care. You ISP gives you a modem and an ethernet cable to link to the ONT, if you want your network gear in the attic, run ethernet from the ONT to the attic, stick a router and switch there, done.

Important bit is dont go messing with the optical side of the setup, run your own CAT5e/6 from the demarcation point onwards.

murphaph

Its Only Ray Parlour wrote: »

Digging up roads and footpaths is the expensive bit.

They're both expensive. Depending on the condition of the pole infrastructure, the overhead variant may be more expensive as the poles may not be suitable without resetting them all.

Ducts under footpaths may already be present (in pretty much all the celtic tiger estates there will be ample ductwork present and even in many older states this will be the case).

Pushing fibre through existing ducts will be the cheapest option if available. It also means the fibre is well protected from the elements and unlikely to need any maintenance. Fibre strung along overhead wire will be subject to the same storms that knock out existing overhead networks from time to time, so from a long term prospective, underground will be cheaper if it's an option. Fibre is an ideal candidate for underground installation as it is not going to be affected by damp/water ingress as copper can be.

SpaceTime

Actually, the vast majority of eircom's network is underground (much more so than the ESB's).

In most cases where you see poles, they're just legacy infrastructure that is only used for the last drop i.e. the wires come up the side of the pole (from an underground duct) and run from there to the houses overhead. This was done to avoid digging roads but, the network is pretty much entirely underground.

There's relatively little use of pole-to-pole stuff anymore. It's been progressively removed since the 1970s.

So in a lot of cases, it might just be a question of running the fibre up a pole and across a single drop overhead to a house. Other than that it would be underground and they've vaults (manholes) almost everywhere for putting splitters / aggregation gear and other equipment out of harm's way.

From what I know of the FTTC rollout, they ran 24 fibres (of which only 4 are used for FTTC) and there are 20 spare fibres, each of which would provide 32 homes with 1Gbit/s GPON service.

So they've actually got a huge lead over ESB if they want to get rolling.

They actually already have the necessary fibre rolled out to something like 4000+ locations where e-fibre cabinets are in place for FTTC.

All I know is the next few years could see Ireland's broadband being totally transformed as ESB, Eircom and UPC go head-to-head.

notahappycamper

ED E wrote: »

The same fibre runs from splitter (at cab or manhole) all the way into the interior wall behind your ETU, wherever that happens to be. They drill a hole and shove in 3-4ft of fibre and fit that into an internal optical faceplate. The ONT is mounted beside this. They fit it there, it stays there. After that they don't care. You ISP gives you a modem and an ethernet cable to link to the ONT, if you want your network gear in the attic, run ethernet from the ONT to the attic, stick a router and switch there, done.

Important bit is dont go messing with the optical side of the setup, run your own CAT5e/6 from the demarcation point onwards.

What happens the phone line once the FTTH is installed or will it use the fibre and become VOIP i.e. how would you make calls on the land line?

ED E

notahappycamper wrote: »

What happens the phone line once the FTTH is installed or will it use the fibre and become VOIP i.e. how would you make calls on the land line?

The pricing includes options for both. They have to offer a POTS line (USO, expect this will be relaxed), but I assume most operators will start using VOIP (vodafone already do a lot of VOIP for business, eircom used to sell it residentially) and pass the savings on to the consumer (somewhat).

Nollog

notahappycamper wrote: »

What happens the phone line once the FTTH is installed or will it use the fibre and become VOIP i.e. how would you make calls on the land line?

Fibre is completely separate from the phone line, if you use your home phone then it'll stay the same as long as you keep paying for it.

The Cush

ED E wrote: »

The same fibre runs from splitter (at cab or manhole) all the way into the interior wall behind your ETU, wherever that happens to be. They drill a hole and shove in 3-4ft of fibre and fit that into an internal optical faceplate. The ONT is mounted beside this. They fit it there, it stays there. After that they don't care. You ISP gives you a modem and an ethernet cable to link to the ONT, if you want your network gear in the attic, run ethernet from the ONT to the attic, stick a router and switch there, done.

Pics from the Belcarra pilot videos

Alun

ED E wrote: »

The same fibre runs from splitter (at cab or manhole) all the way into the interior wall behind your ETU, wherever that happens to be. They drill a hole and shove in 3-4ft of fibre and fit that into an internal optical faceplate. The ONT is mounted beside this. They fit it there, it stays there.

That's interesting. If they were to drill a hole through the back of the ETU in my house (a bungalow) they'd end up inside a built-in wardrobe with no power available:) Not very useful.

Do they have any other methods available to them, such as running the fibre outside in ducting for a short distance and enter at a more convenient place?

irishgeo

anywhere to register your interest for the eircom FTTH?

jca

irishgeo wrote: »

anywhere to register your interest for the eircom FTTH?

http://fibrerollout.ie/ In the very top right corner click on the "keep me in the loop" link, that will allow you to register.

PeadarB

jca wrote: »

http://fibrerollout.ie/ In the very top right corner click on the "keep me in the loop" link, that will allow you to register.

This relates to FTTC only, i.e. the current e-fibre rollout The only info given re FTTH on the current wholesale rollout map is to indicate whether or not a particular location is included in the FTTH plans.
I tried it and I've already got efibre, but I see the buggers still didn't re-profile me back to 100/20.

"Dear Peter
Thank you for visiting our fibrerollout site.

You requested an update on Letterkenny, specifically 074-91*****.

This number is served by a cabinet which has already been fibre enabled and qualifies for high speed broadband with speeds up to 90Mb/s.

For further information on price plans etc, you will need to contact your preferred retail provider.

Kind Regards"


So much for info re FTTH!!!

red bellied

ED E wrote: »

They need to run it up into manholes outside premises first, then feed up to the houses from there. Id say they'll do areas or estates in one go, then come back to the appointments as a separate works order.

They were doing this for the past hour outside my house this morning, packed up and gone already.

swoofer

you could say location, ie roughly, the town, to give us an idea

red bellied

Sligo town, Caltragh area, they feed the fibre into a manhole beside the cabinet and it was then linked up to another two in the estate, a small cul de sac with 16 houses.

PeadarB

MCS/KN Networks working at my cabinet today (LKY1_005) in Letterkenny. They are currently clearing ducts and pushing fibre up the Long Lane, and into Errigal Road which is only across the road from me. Still no sign of how they plan to service the houses in my estate though.

SpaceTime

PeadarB wrote: »

MCS/KN Networks working at my cabinet today (LKY1_005) in Letterkenny. They are currently clearing ducts and pushing fibre up the Long Lane, and into Errigal Road which is only across the road from me. Still no sign of how they plan to service the houses in my estate though.

The whole thing's done in vaults and pushed through underground. There won't need to be any more cabinets if it's anything like similar installations I've seen in France.

They'll install an ODF (Optical Distribution Frame) at the local exchange and all the fibre ends up back there. Each fibre line back to the exchange carries fibre carries 32 FTTH customers AFAIK.

Effectively what you'll have is a small splitter / aggregation node sitting in a vault (manhole). These aren't 'active electronics', they're passive optical splitters, so they're far less complicated to install and maintain than the current Efibre cabinets which contain full DSLAMs and routers and stuff. They require power, cooling, battery back up etc etc. They're basically a cabinetised mini exchange.

The final drop to your house might go in via a duct if one exists, or could come up the side of a pole and overhead just like current older phone line installations. The majority of eircom's network is actually underground. The bits you see overhead are typically just a short drop from the pole to a house because there was no duct installed years ago. The wires actually run down the sides of the poles in a metal tube and into a vault and off to the nearest cabinet / exchange.

The rollout of this stuff could, in theory anyway, be very rapid.

ED E

SpaceTime wrote: »

The whole thing's done in vaults and pushed through underground. There won't need to be any more cabinets if it's anything like similar installations I've seen in France.

They'll install an ODF (Optical Distribution Frame) at the local exchange and all the fibre ends up back there. Each fibre line back to the exchange carries fibre carries 32 FTTH customers AFAIK.

Effectively what you'll have is a small splitter / aggregation node sitting in a vault. These aren't 'active electronics', they're passive optical splitters, so they're far less complicated to install and maintain than the current Efibre cabinets which contain full DSLAMs and routers and stuff. They're basically a cabinetised mini exchange.

The OLTs are are already in place to feed the NGA nodes, they'll just need to plug in a few extra GPON line cards.

SpaceTime

ED E wrote: »

The OLTs are are already in place to feed the NGA nodes, they'll just need to plug in a few extra GPON line cards.

Depends how they do it and what space they have.

Normally they'll avoid running multiple fibres from the same place if the end points aren't all equidistant from it. You'd just end up running a lot more fibres than you actually need.

You can for example run a long fibre from the cabinet to serve a cluster of houses .. There's no particular reason why everything needs to radiate from a single cabinet as the gear's much smaller and easier to deal with than VDSL.

In the French setup, you typically have a node sitting underground some where near 32 homes and they just plug in there. They haven't actually run a fibre from the cabinet to every house, yet they're still all at least 1Gbit/s capable.

In theory, this stuff should be able to get FTTH out to a lot more homes than could get FTTC... Could be quite interesting.

PeadarB

SpaceTime wrote: »

The whole thing's done in vaults and pushed through underground. There won't need to be any more cabinets if it's anything like similar installations I've seen in France.

They'll install an ODF (Optical Distribution Frame) at the local exchange and all the fibre ends up back there. Each fibre line back to the exchange carries fibre carries 32 FTTH customers AFAIK.

My concern is that in the older estates, which are serviced via drops from a central pole (to 10 or 12 houses) will be missed owing to the fact that we are not served by underground ducting. They seem to have brought a lot of contractors in from the North to do the work. There is a marked increase in KNN activity up our way over the past week or so. Looking good for some for a September 1st kick off all the same.

SpaceTime

PeadarB wrote: »

My concern is that in the older estates, which are serviced via drops from a central pole (to 10 or 12 houses) will be missed owing to the fact that we are not served by underground ducting. They seem to have brought a lot of contractors in from the North to do the work. There is a marked increase in KNN activity up our way over the past week or so. Looking good for some for a September 1st kick off all the same.

Shouldn't necessarily make much difference if they're using overhead drops of fibre from that pole.

In France it's even clipped along the front of buildings strung between houses much like UPC do things here.

Aerial fibre isn't all that unusual these days and if it's only being done for individual end users, it's not a big deal. You obviously want to avoid having major trunks running overhead as you'd take out a whole town if someone crashes into a pole or a very particularly heavy group of seagulls sit on it

lucernarian

SpaceTime wrote: »

Depends how they do it and what space they have.

Normally they'll avoid running multiple fibres from the same place if the end points aren't all equidistant from it. You'd just end up running a lot more fibres than you actually need.

You can for example run a long fibre from the cabinet to serve a cluster of houses .. There's no particular reason why everything needs to radiate from a single cabinet as the gear's much smaller and easier to deal with than VDSL.

In the French setup, you typically have a node sitting underground some where near 32 homes and they just plug in there. They haven't actually run a fibre from the cabinet to every house, yet they're still all at least 1Gbit/s capable.

It might be easier to match infrastructural records with existing cable records if they follow the same setup from cabinets to different distribution points. Eircom seem to be exactly planning to run long (not that long in the targeted urban areas) fibres to specific distribution points near each other, like a 30-pair cable would do currently.

SpaceTime

lucernarian wrote: »

It might be easier to match infrastructural records with existing cable records if they follow the same setup from cabinets to different distribution points. Eircom seem to be exactly planning to run long (not that long in the targeted urban areas) fibres to specific distribution points near each other, like a 30-pair cable would do currently.

That's pretty much what l'Orange (France Télécom) have been doing. There's actually tons and tons of information available on their rollout as they've been quite open about what they're doing, much like eircom have been with FTTC.

It basically follows the old copper plan most of the time with the local exchange buildings and those giant green cabinet things they housed some of them in proving to be extremely reusable as mini-data centres / ODF nodes.

ED E

Long term it'd make sense for them to move away from aerial spans, the chance of damage, environmental or incidental, is just way higher. They wont sell the product though if garden trenching is required. House mounted DPs the way UPC run are nice, but permission is a big issue, our road was delayed by 2yrs for DOCSIS capable cable due to a fussy neighbour.

SpaceTime

ED E wrote: »

Long term it'd make sense for them to move away from aerial spans, the chance of damage, environmental or incidental, is just way higher. They wont sell the product though if garden trenching is required. House mounted DPs the way UPC run are nice, but permission is a big issue, our road was delayed by 2yrs for DOCSIS capable cable due to a fussy neighbour.

They have been moving away from them for decades now. Their specs for all new builds are underground and even where a person orders a new phone line, they're supposed to provide a duct to the nearest pole.

Same with ESB for power. You won't see any overhead lines in new build and that's going back quite a long time at this stage.

Eircom don't actually have very much in the way of overhead spans anymore in most areas. It's literally only last drops. The multicore stuff is all underground where possible. There are some rural areas that probably still have long overhead multicore runs, but to a degree that's unavoidable as the costs of undergrounding all of it would put the line rental fees through the roof.

In low density population areas like Ireland, you have to strike a cost:benefit balance on these things. Undergrounding all of the phone or power network would be totally uneconomic.

Laying ducts into all new road builds / major resurfacing projects would be quite sensible though and I think to a degree that has happened.

In a lot of cases though, it's not really possible as resurfacing might only be a surface dressing, digging holes and trenches for ducts isn't cheap.

In a lot of cases you're talking about network rollout that was done quick and dirty in the 30s/40s/50s/60s too. Same all over the world, they needed to get lines (power or phone) into pre-existing buildings. Physically digging up roads in those days was hugely labour intensive - no JCBs, no mini diggers, no automatic road surfacing machines... It was all done by hand... You're talking a bunch of lads with pick axes, shovels and maybe if they were lucky a pneumatic drill or two.

Lots of legacy in these networks that people forget about and we also tend to forget just how much construction technologies and materials have changed over that period too. You can even 'mole' ducts in now without even disrupting anything that was way beyond the kind of tech available to people in the not so distant past.

Also don't forget that P&T was a Government department, so the ducts were dug by civil servants ... (not even semi-state employees). So you can imagine how that went Sir Humphrey isn't fond of breaking a sweat!

The biggest issue that may come up is broken / blocked ducts where they've collapsed or been infiltrated by roots of trees. Although from what I gather, during the FTTC rollout the ducts were shown to be in surprisingly good shape compared to a lot of other countries, so fingers crossed!

bk

lucernarian wrote: »

It might be easier to match infrastructural records with existing cable records if they follow the same setup from cabinets to different distribution points. Eircom seem to be exactly planning to run long (not that long in the targeted urban areas) fibres to specific distribution points near each other, like a 30-pair cable would do currently.

From the video on Eircom wholesales site, it seems that 24 fiber pairs pass under each FTTC cab. 4 of these fibres terminate at the cab for VDSL. The other 20 seem to pass by the cab and head in various directions towards streets and hosting estates. A passive optical splitter then splits each fibre to 32 fibres to feed the nearby homes. The point being these optical splitters seem to be near the 32 actual premises, rather then at the actual cab.

This makes sense as it means Eircom can radially supply homes up to kilometres away from the cab in all directions.

lucernarian

When you say eircom don't have overground spans in most areas, the same could be said of Telecom Éireann in 1999. Nowhere I have passed regularly in the last 15 years of my life has had any overhead plant put into undeground, for any stretch longer than 50 metres. And the R162 from Shercock towards Cootehill in Co. Cavan still has the same 4 30-pair cables strung up between more closely-spaced poles. https://goo.gl/maps/0xeZ2 There's 5 30-pair cables for some of it. At least some of the poles have been replaced since the time Eircom was taken over by Babcock and Brown.

Telecom Éireann had been moving away from overhead cabling but with eircom, I bet there's actually slightly more roadside poles in use now than ten years ago because of overhead fibre runs between exchanges here and there. I've seen new poles carrying just fibre, at the exchange boundary, along some part of the old N8 in Tipperary for example.

bk

SpaceTime wrote: »

The biggest issue that may come up is broken / blocked ducts where they've collapsed or been infiltrated by roots of trees. Although from what I gather, during the FTTC rollout the ducts were shown to be in surprisingly good shape compared to a lot of other countries, so fingers crossed!

In the cases of blocked/collapsed ducts, I expect Eircom will consider using G.Fast/FTTDp from the closest pole/duct chamber to service those premises.

Also I expect they will use G.Fast within apartment buildings.

lucernarian

SpaceTime wrote: »

Normally they'll avoid running multiple fibres from the same place if the end points aren't all equidistant from it. You'd just end up running a lot more fibres than you actually need.

You can for example run a long fibre from the cabinet to serve a cluster of houses .. There's no particular reason why everything needs to radiate from a single cabinet as the gear's much smaller and easier to deal with than VDSL.

I'm kinda missing the point behind this, was anyone ever proposing that they run individual fibres from houses to cabinets? That would defeat the whole point of GPON. With 20 spare fibres at any given cabinet, I'd be surprised if they supplied any customer with limited links.

Does anybody think eircom would try and connect as many people as possible (i.e. approaching 32 premises) per fibre, and if the cabinet served 120 premises then they would only use e.g 4 or 5 fibres out of 20, or will they just keep a couple of fibres spare and use say 16 fibres, with each fibre being split at just 1:8? It wasn't easy to tell but China Telecom seem to do that in some parts, with individual fibre runs supplying only one optical splitter at 1:8 or 1:16, rather than the CATV model of regular taps as houses are passed.

bk

lucernarian wrote: »

I'm kinda missing the point behind this, was anyone ever proposing that they run individual fibres from houses to cabinets? That would defeat the whole point of GPON. With 20 spare fibres at any given cabinet, I'd be surprised if they supplied any customer with limited links.

Does anybody think eircom would try and connect as many people as possible (i.e. approaching 32 premises) per fibre, and if the cabinet served 120 premises then they would only use e.g 4 or 5 fibres out of 20, or will they just keep a couple of fibres spare and use say 16 fibres, with each fibre being split at just 1:8? It wasn't easy to tell but China Telecom seem to do that in some parts, with individual fibre runs supplying only one optical splitter at 1:8 or 1:16, rather than the CATV model of regular taps as houses are passed.

I expect that the optical splitters will be placed at streets or estates where there are rose felt 32 homes. Of course that doesn't mean all 32 homes sign up to FTTH. Some might stick with ADSL/VDSL, SIRO FTTH or UPC. Also I'm sure there will be cases where an optical splitter will be placed where there are less then 32 premises. I'd imagine an optical splitter being placed in the middle of an 8 premises clusters.

Optical splitters are relatively cheap and simple devices. So they will be used in such a way as to reduce the length of fibre cable run.

The bigger issue might be a street where you have 35 premises, what happens to the last 3 premises if all 32 other houses already sign up to FTTH?

Will Eircom run a second fibre and splitter?

If they do, will they leave 3 on one fibre and 32 on the first or will they try and balance it out across the 2 fibres?

Or will they just use the one fibre for all 35. After all GPON also supports 64 and 128 way splits, obviously with less guaranteed speed.

The reality is we just don't know yet.

ED E

I think you can break out multiple times from the same core with gpon, as in split off 1/3 spectrum at one point and the rest at another, doesn't have to divide into 32 at once.

bk

ED E wrote: »

I think you can break out multiple times from the same core with gpon, as in split off 1/3 spectrum at one point and the rest at another, doesn't have to divide into 32 at once.

Ah, yes, I forgot about that, it makes it a very flexible solution.

SpaceTime

bk wrote: »

In the cases of blocked/collapsed ducts, I expect Eircom will consider using G.Fast/FTTDp from the closest pole/duct chamber to service those premises.

Also I expect they will use G.Fast within apartment buildings.

What kind of real world speeds is g.fast capable of?

With ductless apartment buildings they could easily do what UPC and Sky Television do with coax - retrofit it by clipping it to the external walls and enter through balconies and window ledges.

Just put a splitter on the roof or in the basement and feed from there.

bk

SpaceTime wrote: »

What kind of real world speeds is g.fast capable of?

500Mb/s to 1Gb/s I expect closer to 1Gb/s for most people given the relatively short distance of drops and relatively good quality of copper used.

With ductless apartment buildings they could easily do what UPC and Sky Television do with coax - retrofit it by clipping it to the external walls and enter through balconies and window ledges.

Just put a splitter on the roof or in the basement and feed from there.

It is far from that easy. I fought for 6 years to get UPC into my building. First upc won't run cables externally on apartment buildings and often the management companies and/or residents won't allow it.

Upc kept coming too my building over a few years but each time the quotes they got from the contractors were too high to make it economic to do. In fairness to them they kept trying and eventually they were able to get it in under budget, by running the cable up from the basements through the risers and into each apartment.

It worked in the end, but the point is it was far from simple. It cost them a lot of money to do and took nearly 6 years!

I can't see Eircom doing this for every apartment building in Ireland when they have a cheap drop in solution available to them.

Though in my buildings case, there is a cat5e cable going from the basement "telecoms room" to each apartment. I wonder in such cases will they skip the G.Fast and just use gigabit Ethernet up to each apartment instead?

lucernarian

ED E wrote: »

I think you can break out multiple times from the same core with gpon, as in split off 1/3 spectrum at one point and the rest at another, doesn't have to divide into 32 at once.

It definitely can, a la cable TV taps but with some limits depending on the exact kit use. Verizon FiOS certainly use multiple optical splitters per core in their rollouts.

A simplified example: For an "isolated" cluster of 8 houses. Say, some cul de sac with 1960s bungalows on it in a town which has since grown out and has housing estates scattered around. Are eircom more likely to run one of the 20 cores straight from the cabinet to that laneway's DP and use a 1:8 or 1:16 splitter, or will they also split that core on its way to the laneway and use it for another 8-16 houses somewhere else?

bk wrote:

If they do, will they leave 3 on one fibre and 32 on the first or will they try and balance it out across the 2 fibres?

Or will they just use the one fibre for all 35. After all GPON also supports 64 and 128 way splits, obviously with less guaranteed speed.

The reality is we just don't know yet.

This thread is exactly what all this speculation is about, surely? Maybe someone in the know or with experience of the Belcarra trial or the Wexford FTTH rollout might have a good idea.

My feeling is that they will use unsplit cores to supply an existing DP that might handle ten pairs and put a 1:16 tap beside them, like what I've seen in Asia. And deploy optical splitters for locations like semi-d housing estates where the ducting in the estate mightn't allow for a star topology like overhead drops would do.

Edit:

bk wrote:

I can't see Eircom doing this for every apartment building in Ireland when they have a cheap drop in solution available to them.

Though in my buildings case, there is a cat5e cable going from the basement "telecoms room" to each apartment. I wonder in such cases will they skip the G.Fast and just use gigabit Ethernet up to each apartment instead?

I'd agree. With that cat 5e cable, do you think all the lengths are less than 90 odd metres and unbroken/unkinked etc? I imagine the apartment blocks in question aren't that big! Also, is it possible that for customers who want it, eircom will be allowed to replace copper drop cables with single mode fibre? They could use the existing ducts and cables to pull wires through, probably quite easily! I wonder if it's easy to do this while leaving the phone cable in situ also...

bk

lucernarian wrote: »

I'd agree. With that cat 5e cable, do you think all the lengths are less than 90 odd metres and unbroken/unkinked etc? I imagine the apartment blocks in question aren't that big! Also, is it possible that for customers who want it, eircom will be allowed to replace copper drop cables with single mode fibre? They could use the existing ducts and cables to pull wires through, probably quite easily! I wonder if it's easy to do this while leaving the phone cable in situ also...

Oh there are definitely apartments way more then 90 meters from the telecoms room, a couple hundred meters wouldn't surprise me at all.

There is actually two buildings in the complex, kind of like a T shape with a road separating the upper section from the long length wise section. The comms room is in the upper - section of the T, while the majority of the apartments are in the I section, the apartments at the opposite end of the | are easily more then 100 meters from the comms room.

Having said that there are three patch panels in rooms in the basement along the second building, so here Eircom could relatively easily bypass the comms room and put an optical splitter at each patch panel to reduce the distance, though it would the require more gear and less centralisation.

I'm not sure how easy it would be to pull out the cat5e and replace it with fiber. It would certainly be possible to send the fiber up the risers like UPC did, but then it comes out in the kitchen rather then the study and is a bit messy and awkward. It was costly and time consuming for upc to do.

Which is why I think Eircom wouldn't bother with all that trouble and would instead just stick G.Fast on it or Ethernet.

Btw in my apartment we don't actually have Eircom service! Only stupid Digiweb/Smart Telecom phone and ADSL2+ over those cat5e cables!!! (That is until UPC blessedly arrived). I'm not sure if Digiweb/smart own the cat5e cables or the management company. It would be monumentally stupid if the management company didn't own them. But it also wouldn't surprise me one bit!

lucernarian

bk wrote: »

Oh there are definitely apartments way more then 90 meters from the telecoms room, a couple hundred meters wouldn't surprise me at all.

There is actually two buildings in the complex, kind of like a T shape with a road separating the upper section from the long length wise section. The comms room is in the upper - section of the T, while the majority of the apartments are in the I section, the apartments at the opposite end of the | are easily more then 100 meters from the comms room.

Having said that there are three patch panels in rooms in the basement along the second building, so here Eircom could relatively easily bypass the comms room and put an optical splitter at each patch panel to reduce the distance, though it would the require more gear and less centralisation.

I'm not sure how easy it would be to pull out the cat5e and replace it with fiber. It would certainly be possible to send the fiber up the risers like UPC did, but then it comes out in the kitchen rather then the study and is a bit messy and awkward. It was costly and time consuming for upc to do.

Which is why I think Eircom wouldn't bother with all that trouble and would instead just stick G.Fast on it or Ethernet.

Btw in my apartment we don't actually have Eircom service! Only stupid Digiweb/Smart Telecom phone and ADSL2+ over those cat5e cables!!! (That is until UPC blessedly arrived). I'm not sure if Digiweb/smart own the cat5e cables or the management company. It would be monumentally stupid if the management company didn't own them. But it also wouldn't surprise me one bit!

I thought that, owing to the USO, people were entitled to a phone service provided by eircom on the PSTN? That is honestly the first time I've heard of an apartment complex where eircom aren't in place (and it's not also eircom's fault)

bk

lucernarian wrote: »

I thought that, owing to the USO, people were entitled to a phone service provided by eircom on the PSTN? That is honestly the first time I've heard of an apartment complex where eircom aren't in place (and it's not also eircom's fault)

Yes I've wondered about that too, that is also my assumption.

Or is it a case that if you can get phone service off another company then Eircom didn't have to supply service? I'd love to hear from anyone who might know for certain?

I think it might have been a case that they got away with it as no one challenged them on it. Until recently it didn't matter as Smarts service was as good as Eircom (ADSL2+) and much better value for money. Only with the rollout of VDSL has things changed. But we got UPC in about a year ago, so now that is much better.

I wonder if I challenged the management company on the grounds of the USO would it force them to get Eircom in. However to be honest, UPC is offering such a good service I'm not too bothered to fight again with the management company (it took years to force them to get upc in!)

I think ill just wait until Eircom starts to rollout FTTH in my area before perhaps going down that road.

ED E

Ive wondered this too. Often where coax is in place there's also POTS as previously there was no DOCSIS, but modern apartment blocks can be magnet exclusive. If tenant x says he wants eircom, management company say no new cable runs, then eircom could claim the landowner themselves are rejecting the USO offer. Or the legal costs would be greater than 7k which is the reasonable effort threshold.

Wouldn't be surprised if its never been challenged.

PeadarB

The KNN/MCS lads are flat out in Letterkenny now. Initial core fibre runs to droppoints well underway. I got a quick look at the workplan for my area before he folded it over. Saturation seems to be the order of the day. 8:1 connections, with "redundancy" from DP's both in the existing underground ducting and via the existing aerial drops. I'll need to gen up on my knowledge of all this FTTH crack.

Manc Red

PeadarB wrote: »

The KNN/MCS lads are flat out in Letterkenny now. Initial core fibre runs to droppoints well underway. I got a quick look at the workplan for my area before he folded it over. Saturation seems to be the order of the day. 8:1 connections, with "redundancy" from DP's both in the existing underground ducting and via the existing aerial drops. I'll need to gen up on my knowledge of all this FTTH crack.

Where have you seen them? What areas?

PeadarB

Manc Red wrote: »

Where have you seen them? What areas?

Up as far as the Killyclug/Killylastin Junction. Up the Long Lane. Wolf Tone and Convent Road, Errigal and Sliabh Sneacht Roads. All the housing estates from Binnion Avenue up as far as Upper Ashbrook. They were sussing out the cab feeding Beechwood Road and Avenue, and the back end of upper Ashbrook.

I'd love to have the cheek to ask them to see the work plans but the glance I got of the Ashbrook/Errigal Road/Sliabh Sneacht area shows they are absolutely dotted with drop points.

lucernarian

How does the rollout compare to the urban area of Letterkenny? Does it serve DPs that are connected to rural cabinets? LKY 007 would be a good example. It's out past the golf course on the Ramelton road. Even if it's rural, there's probably a few nearby distribution points to the cabinet, with its 20 fibre cores waiting to be used.

KOR101

Rating Action: Moody's changes outlook on eircom's B3 ratings to positive
Global Credit Research - 29 May 2015
Assigns B3 rating to new tranche of bank facility

Madrid, May 29, 2015 -- Moody's Investors Service has today affirmed the B3 corporate family rating (CFR) of eircom Holdings (Ireland) Limited (eircom), its B3-PD probability of default rating (PDR), the B3 rating on the EUR2.0 billion senior secured credit facility raised by eircom Finco S.à.r.l. and the B3 rating on the EUR350 million senior secured notes due 2020 issued by eircom Finance Limited. The rating outlook for eircom and its rated subsidiaries has been changed to positive from stable. Concurrently, Moody's has also assigned a B3 rating to Term Loan B3 borrowed by eircom Finco S.à.r.l., a new tranche of the existing term loan facility.

"Our decision to change the outlook on eircom's B3 ratings to positive primarily reflects our view that the company's operating performance will improve over the next 12-18 months, mainly driven by price increases, while it will start generating positive free cash flows that will allow it to slowly reduce debt," says Iván Palacios, a Moody's Vice President -- Senior Credit Officer and lead analyst for eircom. "As a result, eircom's metrics are reaching levels that could soon support upward pressure on the rating."

RATINGS RATIONALE

Today's outlook change reflects Moody's expectations that eircom's operating performance is nearing an inflection point, helped by management's solid execution of the business plan, an improving economy and a more rational competitive environment. The trend towards revenue stabilisation was visible in March 2015, when eircom achieved year-on-year revenue growth for the first time in the last six years.

A stronger operating performance will be further supported by price increases implemented in April 2015, which will allow the company to stabilise revenues and improve EBITDA and cash flow generation. Moody's expects that eircom will start generating positive free cash flows over the next 12 months on the back of improved top line and EBITDA trends, the lack of any further significant voluntary leaver costs, and somewhat lower capex going forward.

As a result of this improved performance, eircom's credit ratios are reaching levels that could support upward pressure on the rating over the next 12 to 18 months, such as adjusted debt/EBITDA trending towards 5.5x. While adjusted leverage remains high -- partly owing to the unfavourable evolution of the pension deficit -- the company's deleveraging trajectory is on the right path.

The change in outlook also reflects the benefits for eircom of the recent amend and extend process, such as the extension of its debt maturity profile by almost three years and the increased operational flexibility (more headroom under covenants, lower administrative burden) at no incremental financial cost.

Finally, the change in outlook also reflects eircom's increasing enterprise value, consistent with rising valuations in the European telecom sector. In fact, the company has recently rejected a takeover offer for EUR3.2-EUR3.3 billion that would imply a significant enterprise value in relation to eircom's still high levels of debt.

WHAT COULD CHANGE THE RATING UP/DOWN

Upward pressure on the rating would be supported by continued positive pricing environment, which translates into growth in revenues and EBITDA such that adjusted debt/EBITDA trends towards 5.5x on a sustained basis and allows the company to generate positive free cash flows. Upward rating pressure would also require the group to maintain a sound liquidity profile, with comfortable headroom under financial covenants.

Downward pressure on the rating could materialise if the group fails to execute its business plan or if pricing dynamics deteriorate, leading to weaker-than-expected credit metrics, including adjusted debt/EBITDA trending sustainably above 6.5x, and persistently negative free cash flow generation. Given the size and volatility of eircom's pension deficit, the B3 rating with a positive outlook incorporates the potential for moderate deviations from these ranges on a temporary basis.

Moody's would also be concerned if eircom's liquidity came under stress as a result of a weaker-than-expected operating performance or larger cash outflows for capex in the absence of alternative external sources, such as a revolving credit facility or vendor financing.

https://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys-changes-outlook-on-eircoms-B3-ratings-to-positive--PR_326461?WT.mc_id=AM~RmluYW56ZW4ubmV0X1JTQl9SYXRpbmdzX05ld3NfTm9fVHJhbnNsYXRpb25z~20150529_PR_326461

But, bond yields only down to 7.1%, from 7.34% in December. So, still very much on the edge.

http://www.boerse-frankfurt.de/en/bonds/eircom+fin+13+20+regs+XS0927671080

PeadarB

lucernarian wrote: »

How does the rollout compare to the urban area of Letterkenny? Does it serve DPs that are connected to rural cabinets? LKY 007 would be a good example. It's out past the golf course on the Ramelton road. Even if it's rural, there's probably a few nearby distribution points to the cabinet, with its 20 fibre cores waiting to be used.

Lucernian I have no doubt that LKY1_007, which appears to be the furthest from the exchange at 4.7km as the crow flies, will be done. It should have the core fibre in place already, as suggested by yourself. LKY1_038 at Killyclug is 3km from the exchange as the crow flies. LKY1_027, just over from it is already serving the surrounding housing estates with duct fed FTTH already in place, as reported on their video.
The housing density at Roughpark and Ballymaleel should lent itself quite well for FTTH, in my opinion. A quick check of existing eircom manholes and pole drops, if any, should indicate civils already in situ that will be utilised for FTTH. The FTTH runs around me in Ballyboe/Glencar all seem to originate at the respective cabs, though I stand to be corrected on this. One of the MCS lads said that each DP will serve no more than 8 premises where feasible.
Bearing in mind that the initial FTTC rollout took no more than 12 -15 months throughout Letterkenny exchange area, from inception, I have no doubt that the FTTH rollout will be both extensive and rapid but initally demand led. MCS, a Northern company, with some KNN input are doing the core fibre runs through existing ducts. At the pace they are going up our way, it wont take too long to cover the whole exchange area. The final "blowing" to premises will be a different story I suspect, but given the experience of the staff involved it will be no problem for eircom.