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Puppy spay dilemma
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He was never a social butterfly or very playful with other dogs, but he would manoeuvre around other dogs he met without us noticing any discomfort. He'd just ignore them and keep doing his own thing, which was usually casing the area with his nose to find more and more spots to wee on.
(He's always been VERY driven to cock his leg and kick up the grass.) I had no problem turning him out into the agility ring at Alison's for example, when we were on a break from classes.
Since neutering, when he sees/meets a new dog he is barky and his body language is a bit fearful. It definitely seems to tie in with castration because my brother picked up on it in the weeks after the op.0 -
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I have a very fearful male dog who isn't neutered. I'm unsure about getting him done because he is so fearful already.. but then I also wonder might it take the "edge" off him in those situations and he might get a bit calmer? I don't know... I'm torn.
I don't think being spayed made any difference to my female whatsoever but she was 2+ by then. I think she has calmed a bit over time but that's just age.
Spyaing shouldn't make much of a difference to the vast majority of females, it's only those who had a bit of an inkling of the unwanted behaviour prior to spaying that there's a potential problem with
As for your male, it is a tough call. Whilst neutering a nervy, shy male can deprive him of confidence-boosting testosterone, the last thing you want to do with a nervy, shy dog is give them any opportunity to breed, as fearfulness is the most genetically heritable behavioural trait (I'm not for a second suggesting that you'd let your dog breed Tea Tree, this is just a general observation!)
With your male, what you *could* do is try chemical castration first, just to see what happens, although it is possible that whilst dogs can improve when chemically castrated, the same effect isn't as dramatic when the dog is properly castrated... go figure!
Whilst castration *shouldn't* hugely improve the edgy part of his behaviour, you just never know. Some people find that their dogs become very chilled towards things that castration should have no effect on!0 -
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My vets are keen to do a full spay any time soon since my dog is 6 months old. I'm wondering about finding a vet who will just remove her uterus (partial spay). Have any of you requested this for your dog or explored the pros and cons of such a scenario?
Why? I'm not getting on your case, just interested!
The cons of spaying a bitch are considerably less than the pros, particularly if you let her mature physically (although waiting and allowing her to have heats has its own risks too.. you can't win, can you?!)
If you leave the ovaries in, obviously you'll still get her coming into heat, bleeding, unwanted male attention, potential mating, and potential false pregnancies. No actual pregnancy obviously, but for me at least, leaving the ovaries in negates a huge amount of the positives of spaying!0 -
Why? I'm not getting on your case, just interested!
The cons of spaying a bitch are considerably less than the pros, particularly if you let her mature physically (although waiting and allowing her to have heats has its own risks too.. you can't win, can you?!)
If you leave the ovaries in, obviously you'll still get her coming into heat, bleeding, unwanted male attention, potential mating, and potential false pregnancies. No actual pregnancy obviously, but for me at least, leaving the ovaries in negates a huge amount of the positives of spaying!
If they remove the uterus (& I think they usually take the cervix too), there's minimal discharge in season from what I can find out. Pyometra and other uterine problems wouldn't be an issue and nor would pregnancy. False pregnancy - would that be possible if her uterus was gone? The only issue might be general 'heat' lovieness and attraction to males.
The whole shebang approach seems somewhat old-fashioned and has been entirely discontinued in some countries. Some vets advocate removal of only the ovaries, others removal of only the uterus and other again removal of uterus, cervix, horns of the uterus (fallopian tubes?) and the left ovary. I suppose it's like having too long a menu; too much choice leads to debate and confusion at the veterinarians as well as too many procedures to teach in vet college.
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If they remove the uterus (& I think they usually take the cervix too), there's minimal discharge in season from what I can find out. Pyometra and other uterine problems wouldn't be an issue and nor would pregnancy. False pregnancy - would that be possible if her uterus was gone? The only issue might be general 'heat' lovieness and attraction to males.
The whole shebang approach seems somewhat old-fashioned and has been entirely discontinued in some countries. Some vets advocate removal of only the ovaries, others removal of only the uterus and other again removal of uterus, cervix, horns of the uterus (fallopian tubes?) and the left ovary. I suppose it's like having too long a menu; too much choice leads to debate and confusion at the veterinarians as well as too many procedures to teach in vet college.
I asked my vet about this recently and he said that in general some vets find it hard to get right down to the cervis to remove the uterus, sometime they leave behind a bit which with the ovaries still intact can cause stump pyometra. And that mammary gland tumors are still a big issue when leaving behind the ovaries too.
It's a tough one decided what is best alright!!0 -
fiounnalbe wrote: »I asked my vet about this recently and he said that in general some vets find it hard to get right down to the cervis to remove the uterus, sometime they leave behind a bit which with the ovaries still intact can cause stump pyometra. And that mammary gland tumors are still a big issue when leaving behind the ovaries too.
It's a tough one decided what is best alright!!
Yes, stump pyometra is quite a risk alright, and I have heard of quite a few spayed bitches who still show all the signs of heat, bloody discharge and all, the suspicion being that a bit of ovary was left behind.
@ Dubl07, I'm afraid as long as there are ovaries, there's a risk of phantom pregnancy
But yeah, hard to know what the right thing to do is, pros and cons on all sides! Either way, I think it's hard to argue with an informed and responsible decision that doesn't go out of its way to have serious implications for the dog's health 0 -
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Hmmm...
I wonder if it'd help to try the range of anxiety-reducing products?
Would he allow you to put a body wrap on him?
And would you think about trying on of the non-prescription nutraceutical products, like Zylkene or Calmex? Both products contain proteins that are known to reduce anxiety levels, and I think well worth trying with a dog like yours who is soscared. Poor lad.
And of course, there's Adaptil too, as a collar, spray or diffuser.
Maybe you've tried these already? But if not, I'd certainly be trying them before going for castration 0 -
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But then do spay, there is no advantage in having puppies that you need to re home, even if you get a few bob, because you don't know the kind of person they will go to. And don't underestimate how quickly and opportunistically the act of procreation can happen in dogs.
Lordy Murray007, I think you're preaching to the converted here!0 -
Hmmm...
I wonder if it'd help to try the range of anxiety-reducing products?
Would he allow you to put a body wrap on him?
And would you think about trying on of the non-prescription nutraceutical products, like Zylkene or Calmex? Both products contain proteins that are known to reduce anxiety levels, and I think well worth trying with a dog like yours who is soscared. Poor lad.
And of course, there's Adaptil too, as a collar, spray or diffuser.
Maybe you've tried these already? But if not, I'd certainly be trying them before going for castration
poor lad indeed
he's such a lovely sweet little mouse too:o He's also a wonderful sight to behold running free in the woods when there are no scary people around. This is the dog I've written about before who also fly bites and paw licks. Have only tried Kalm Aid but am open to anything that might help him. Finances are an issue just now but should improve in the new year so a lot ofstuff is being put on hold but since I do have to take him to the vet anyway I'll ask about zylkene etc.
And so sorry OP for the thread hijack 0 -
Kalm Aid is herbal, whereas Zylkene and Calmex are protein-based... There's stronge evidence that the proteins can be almost as effective at reducing anxiety as anti-anxiety drugs are, but without the side effects! Whilst herbal stuff might help a bit, it hasn't anywhere near the potential punch as the proteins.
If I were going for one over the other, as in Zylkene vs Calmex, I think I'd opt for the latter, as there's more evidence in support of it 0 -
Lordy Murray007, I think you're preaching to the converted here!
It is easy to put these things on the long finger, I am doing it myself at the moment with a rescue cat we discovered half dead in forestry near us. I loath to put her though the op just as she has started to look really healthy and has started to trust people.
I am sorry you feel it's preaching!0 -
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It is easy to put these things on the long finger, I am doing it myself at the moment with a rescue cat we discovered half dead in forestry near us. I loath to put her though the op just as she has started to look really healthy and has started to trust people.
I am sorry you feel it's preaching!
No no, I'm not saying you're preaching
Sorry for the confusion!
Preaching to the converted is just an expression I used to gently let you know that ferretone is also a very experienced rescuer and fosterer, and knows the score 100% with what happens when you don't spay your dog/cat/ferret and let them have free access to boys 0 -
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If they remove the uterus (& I think they usually take the cervix too), there's minimal discharge in season from what I can find out. Pyometra and other uterine problems wouldn't be an issue and nor would pregnancy. False pregnancy - would that be possible if her uterus was gone? The only issue might be general 'heat' lovieness and attraction to males.
The whole shebang approach seems somewhat old-fashioned and has been entirely discontinued in some countries. Some vets advocate removal of only the ovaries, others removal of only the uterus and other again removal of uterus, cervix, horns of the uterus (fallopian tubes?) and the left ovary. I suppose it's like having too long a menu; too much choice leads to debate and confusion at the veterinarians as well as too many procedures to teach in vet college.
German vets seem to be keen on only removing the ovaries, I remember one explaining that it's less traumatic and despite leaving the uterus in, there is no risk of pyometra because your removing the hormones driving it. I'v never actually heard of removing only the uterus as your describing, that's not to say it doesn't exist just the traditional all-out or ovaries-out are what I'v come across and I'v noticed an irish/german vet divide.0 -
German vets seem to be keen on only removing the ovaries, I remember one explaining that it's less traumatic and despite leaving the uterus in, there is no risk of pyometra because your removing the hormones driving it. I'v never actually heard of removing only the uterus as your describing, that's not to say it doesn't exist just the traditional all-out or ovaries-out are what I'v come across and I'v noticed an irish/german vet divide.
That's very interesting. My mother-in-law (also German) had a German vet for years, who did not believe in surgery for sterilisation of bitches at all, and who had her using the jab on several successive bitches. On the last one it was for over 10 years, and this bitch ended up having to have a very drastic mastectomy, as cancer had invaded all of the mammaries, save the very top 2
Edited to add: this was a German vet who was working here in Ireland.0 -
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Woohoo! Twelve days now before the deadline given me by the rescue to spay Nyssa, her (neutered) male pals have recently been showing a suddenly increased interest in smelling her behind, and as of today I can see her vulva is definitely beginning to swell! Looks like she is giving us legitimately, what I was fearing we would have to have by stretching the truth.
So relieved to see this. Now we can wait a couple of months, and not have to do it before first heat, as it appears to be now upon us. Needless to say, she is constantly supervised (that was the case anyway), and her off-lead runs stop, effective immediately.
Is it weird for someone who never wants to breed to be so happy to see their bitch come in heat? Call me weird so, but this is a great outcome for us 0 -
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