Small behavioural concern with the Pupster

ShaShaBear

So, for the most part, Opie is a splendid pup - great with other dogs, very playful, extremely intelligent and the nipping and jumping has lessened considerably.
We have one tipped ear now, and the other slowly following (so cute, seriously).

But, he's been showing signs of defensive aggression (that's the only way I can think of putting it) when anyone touches his collar (without holding a lead) or if you are pointing one finger at him. Just to clarify, both of these were discovered by accident and the finger thing I can avoid, but the collar is something I want to get him out of!
I used to be able to get Shadow to move in any direction simply by hooking my finger under his collar and gently tugging in that direction (we're talking like barely enough force to lift the collar from his neck here). Opie got on the bed and in a moment of forgetfulness, I said "Down, Shadow" and went to hook my finger. I got a growl and a very fast snap for my efforts. The other, totally harmless on my part as well, is that I wanted to teach Opie hand signals like I did Shadow. He would stay just by holding your index finger up (in the shh position but not at my face). Opie seems to consider this a threat and snaps whenever I do it!

I'm more worried than anything as he didn't wear a collar until he went to his foster home (before this home) and I'm wondering what she was doing on him!

Any ideas how to stop it, or why he might do it?

DBB

You've probably nailed it when you said that Opie views the finger point as a threat... It is not unheard of for a wagging finger to become a predictor of shouting, rough handling etc... It's what many humans do when they get mad with a dog. I'm not quick to blame ill-treatment for various behaviours, but what Opie's doing was certainly not licked off the street.
Similarly for the collar, I'll bet you a lot of money that he's been scruffed, dragged around or otherwise punished by someone grabbing his scruff.
How to fix it? Fooooood!
Start off by vaguely pointing a finger at him for a tiny moment, or by touching his collar for a moment. The second you do, give him really warm praise and a really delicious piece of food... Really delicious, something he'd never usually get.
Do this a lot, throughout the day.
You'll know when you can up the ante a bit (wave the finger a little longer, put some pressure on the collar) when Opie strts to have a demonstrably positive attitude to waving fingers and fingers rooting at his collar.
You want him to expect a little party every time he gets it right, and this will take gentle repetitions to achieve, but progress usually happens quite quickly with these cases and his youth is on your side.
When he's clearly more comfortable about fingers and collar grabs, start getting other people to do these things with him, BUT, get them to start back at the beginning.... They will be able to progress more quickly as Opie will already have come to know the score.
I'd be aiming to be able to point at him, wave my finger around, and raise my voice to him, in exchange for the treat. Ditto with colar grab, you want to be able to lead him around with finger under collar.
You just might want to make sure there's no neck pain there next time he's with the vet... This may have stemmed from or been exacerbated by his first vaccination or microchip? If these have been done? Vet grabs skin and pup feels pain.
On that note, start gently grabbing Opie's skin and ears and tail in exchange for treats and praise. Gradually grab a little more forcefully. That's what toddlers do! No harm if he's very used to it.

ShaShaBear

He's fine with ear tugging and pressure on his paws, and I can feel him all over and he's pretty happy (but might start play nipping after a while). I'll get a packet of roast chicken in the shopping tomorrow and start doing that right away! I'd hate for him to snap at someone for something as simple as checking ID on his collar

He's had his vax (he had one go, and then another a month later) but he's not got his microchip (booked for next week). The vet that did it could actually well be one of those kinds, he's a large animal vet firstly (I hate dealing with them for pet dogs) so he'll be going to my MIL's vet in Cavan instead (the same one that helped us let Shadow pass on ).

Hopefully he learns quickly, I hate to see it and think someone was rough - he's still only teeny!

ferretone

ShaShaBear wrote: »

So, for the most part, Opie is a splendid pup - great with other dogs, very playful, extremely intelligent and the nipping and jumping has lessened considerably.
We have one tipped ear now, and the other slowly following (so cute, seriously).

Ha! So it sounds as though my 0 cents could well be safe :pac:

The very best of luck with the finger tipping and collar holding issues. You have got the very best of advice on those already. One of the early things that was covered in my class was taking hold of the collar before treating, when teaching preliminary recall, so I'd say that is a very important thing, right enough! But I'm sure you will get that sorted perfectly well, with patient application of DBB's suggestions. They always do work, don't they, as long as we apply them properly

All the best with that, and do try not to die looking at your tipped-eared puppy

ShaShaBear

The problem is Ferretone that they are both tipping, but still all floppy. So when I throw his ball and he is coming running back, his ears flop all over the place and I die from the cuteness
I'm just avoiding the finger pointing and telling everyone to do the same (it seems a common thing to do funny enough) and I'll use a palm signal for stay instead
When I touch his collar and treat, I assume it is only if I get a positive/no response? And would I be right in saying that I should treat straight away rather than wait for him to get uncomfortable?

Also, what are people's views on clicker training?
I've been watching vids on Youtube of The Zak George? He seems pretty good, very positive, doesn't like negative training methods, and has three gorgeous collies :pac:

sillysmiles

ShaShaBear wrote: »

I'm just avoiding the finger pointing and telling everyone to do the same (it seems a common thing to do funny enough) and I'll use a palm signal for stay instead

While it's all well and good for you to use the palm signal instead, it may be a bit unrealistic to expect everyone to remember not to point at him, and he is so young it would be great for him to get over what ever negative association he has with the pointing.

tk123

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Also, what are people's views on clicker training?
I've been watching vids on Youtube of The Zak George? He seems pretty good, very positive, doesn't like negative training methods, and has three gorgeous collies :pac:

I've trained LOADS of stuff with clicker training or even just marking the behaviour with yes/good does the trick. I actually have a clicker training certification... I went to do the next level up and couldn't make head or tail of the requirements so didn't bother lol!

DBB

Clicker training rocks SSB! I think once owners get to grips with it, the possibilities can be almost limitless with it

sillysmiles wrote: »

While it's all well and good for you to use the palm signal instead, it may be a bit unrealistic to expect everyone to remember not to point at him, and he is so young it would be great for him to get over what ever negative association he has with the pointing.

I couldn't agree more with this concern, it was the first thing that struck me when I read that you were going to use a different hand signal... that's not dealing with the issue, it's avoiding it, and you risk an incident in the future if you don't grab this problem by the horns right now, and deal with it.
People point at dogs. People wag their fingers at dogs. I do it all the time with my own dogs in complete jest with them (they get the joke ) Dogs have got to be proofed against our odd ways!