Sexy street harassment

Piliger

Chunners wrote: »

I'd consider the girl who put her hands down your pants sexual harassment wheelchair or not and I'd consider it assault if in the process she scrawled your genitals. Ass pinches in the gym from colleagues are sexual harassment, as is your bosses wife hitting on you. The girl in the club that sounds like assault. Did you ever do anything about all this?

Are you joking ? Really ? Try taking action against a woman in a club who grabs your crotch and you'll find out just how far you'll get.
In my night clubbing days I had my crotch grabbed dozens of times and sometimes pushed the women away. The abuse from people was appalling. I advised my son not to accept this kind of thing. But three years ago it happened to him in town and when he complained to the door people he was thrown out and banned. Now he says to me he just twists their arm and pushes them off.

It's all a one way street. Women decide when they are 'offended' and get away with murder.

ash23

Piliger wrote: »

What utter nonsense, and I don't find any of your experiences of any merit whatsoever. It's about dealing with life and interacting with people. What kind of a world view have you created in your mind where someone who buys you a drink is causing you so much grief ? where someone who sits down at your table 'uninvited' causes you so much offence and problems ?

I suggest it is you who have the problems and not the men who are simply trying to get to meet and talk with you, what may be a slightly clumsy and imperfect way. Your attitude is appalling it seems to me.

"Nobody ever has the right to make someone feel afraid or uncomfortable"
What on earth is that supposed to mean anyway ? Where do we draw the line ? Saying hello in the street to a woman should be criminalised ? shunned ? is harassment ?

What an appalling piece of insanity your vista creates.

So if a guy sits down in a seat beside me and I politely tell him it's my friends seat and he refuses to move. Or if I politely say ,"no thanks" when he offers a drink but he keeps on and on at me? If I tell him I have a boyfriend and I'm just trying to have a chat with the girls and he refuses to go away? If I'm walking to the taxi rank and he follows me even though I've told him I'm fine? If I leave a bar having made it clear I'm not interested and he follows me to another bar? If he follows me every time I go to the toilets? I'm the problem? Really?

Piliger

smurgen wrote: »

so what point are you making so? it's a bit rich when you get these women on a crusade against male advances and up on their high horses and when i myself have been subjected to unwanted female attention,sexual assault in some instances.the difference is we don't make videos with suspect agendas behind them.

You should have a listen to a discussion by a group of young women these days bit¢hing on about about men and you'll regularly hear them complaining that they want a man to pursue them, to make the running. They don't want to have to do it. They don't want to approach a man .. no !

Then a man approaches a woman and boom ! It's harassment because this particular woman is so afraid of her shadow she can't cope with it.

Men cannot win these days. It's hypocrisy dripping from the chandeliers.

smurgen

ash23 wrote: »

So if a guy sits down in a seat beside me and I politely tell him it's my friends seat and he refuses to move. Or if I politely say ,"no thanks" when he offers a drink but he keeps on and on at me? If I tell him I have a boyfriend and I'm just trying to have a chat with the girls and he refuses to go away? If I'm walking to the taxi rank and he follows me even though I've told him I'm fine? If I leave a bar having made it clear I'm not interested and he follows me to another bar? If he follows me every time I go to the toilets? I'm the problem? Really?

You tell him to **** off.if he's still there roar it.that simple really

ash23

And there was silly me teaching my daughter that no means no and that if she says no that should be respected.

Seems it actually turns out that no means "try harder and she'll eventually cave"

What a stunning lesson to teach our young men and women.

the evasion_kid

Piliger wrote: »

You should have a listen to a discussion by a group of young women these days bit¢hing on about about men and you'll regularly hear them complaining that they want a man to pursue them, to make the running. They don't want to have to do it. They don't want to approach a man .. no !

Then a man approaches a woman and boom ! It's harassment because this particular woman is so afraid of her shadow she can't cope with it.

Men cannot win these days. It's hypocrisy dripping from the chandeliers.

^this

And then if he doesn't make his intentions clear...its his fault he's in the friendzone

ash23

smurgen wrote: »

You tell him to **** off.if he's still there roar it.that simple really

Oh I do. Always the polite decline initially then follow it up with a firm no. If he persists he gets a blatant " just F $ CK OFF!!!" which usually results in him calling me names or insulting me. Ho-hum.

One eyed Jack

Piliger wrote: »

You should have a listen to a discussion by a group of young women these days bit¢hing on about about men and you'll regularly hear them complaining that they want a man to pursue them, to make the running. They don't want to have to do it. They don't want to approach a man .. no !

Then a man approaches a woman and boom ! It's harassment because this particular woman is so afraid of her shadow she can't cope with it.

Men cannot win these days. It's hypocrisy dripping from the chandeliers.

What exactly is there to win? People don't like to be harassed, regardless of their gender. There's no hypocrisy there, as people are entitled to like and dislike what they want as individuals, without feeling that they should be accountable to anyone, least of all the person harassing them.

If a person can't tell when their approach would be unwelcome, then the issue is with them, and not with the person who has had to tell them they're not interested.

P. Breathnach

Piliger wrote: »

You should have a listen to a discussion by a group of young women these days bit¢hing on about about men and you'll regularly hear them complaining that they want a man to pursue them, to make the running. They don't want to have to do it. They don't want to approach a man .. no !

Then a man approaches a woman and boom ! It's harassment because this particular woman is so afraid of her shadow she can't cope with it.

Men cannot win these days. It's hypocrisy dripping from the chandeliers.

Women won't approach men; if men approach women they are rebuffed. If that were always the way, no male-female relationships would ever form. I think the facts give the lie to the theory.

smurgen

ash23 wrote: »

And there was silly me teaching my daughter that no means no and that if she says no that should be respected.

Seems it actually turns out that no means "try harder and she'll eventually cave"

What a stunning lesson to teach our young men and women.

It's this melodramatic approach that annoys me.we don't live in a perfect world,grow up!teach pragmatism,not idealism to your kids and they'll know how to protect themselves.

Chunners

smurgen wrote: »

so what point are you making so? it's a bit rich when you get these women on a crusade against male advances and up on their high horses and when i myself have been subjected to unwanted female attention,sexual assault in some instances.the difference is we don't make videos with suspect agendas behind them.

Listen love I don't know if you get it but I have been agreeing with you that what happened to you was hideous, I am not making excuses for anyone because male or female both genders are capable of being assholes but don't forget that the females here aren't the ones who did that to you, it was an isolated incident in that it all revolved around your job at the time so the person you should be angry with is your ex bosses wife not me

Piliger wrote: »

Are you joking ? Really ? Try taking action against a woman in a club who grabs your crotch and you'll find out just how far you'll get.
In my night clubbing days I had my crotch grabbed dozens of times and sometimes pushed the women away. The abuse from people was appalling. I advised my son not to accept this kind of thing. But three years ago it happened to him in town and when he complained to the door people he was thrown out and banned. Now he says to me he just twists their arm and pushes them off.

It's all a one way street. Women decide when they are 'offended' and get away with murder.

I never said it was right or I was joking, I just asked if he did anything about it. It was a query not a suggestion so calm down.

Piliger wrote: »

Then a man approaches a woman and boom ! It's harassment because this particular woman is so afraid of her shadow she can't cope with it.

Men cannot win these days. It's hypocrisy dripping from the chandeliers.

Men can win (as has been proven by the fact that our species has lasted this long), men just need to accept that one group of women you hear talking on a bus do not express the opinion of every woman so when a woman says No or indicates No in her body language it doesn't mean they are a lezzer or frigid it just means she is not interested so they should take that as the hint and leave her the **** alone. She doesn't want you to buy her a drink, she doesn't want you to walk her home and she doesn't want to negotiate the terms of what it will take for you to get her in the sack

ash23

smurgen wrote: »

It's this melodramatic approach that annoys me.we don't live in a perfect world,grow up!teach pragmatism,not idealism to your kids and they'll know how to protect themselves.

Obviously I will teach my child that we don't live in an ideal world and how to keep herself safe from people who aren't respectful of her right to turn them down.
However I will never say that it should be just part and parcel of life and something women should just accept either.
My post was aimed at the response to my list of all the times I'd been harassed. Where I was told I was the problem for not being ok with being molested in my sleep or followed home by a stranger.
No woman should accept that as the way of the world. Nor should any man. We should be striving to teach young men and women how they should act while obviously also teaching them to protect themselves.

Dyr

ash23 wrote: »

So if a guy sits down in a seat beside me and I politely tell him it's my friends seat and he refuses to move. Or if I politely say ,"no thanks" when he offers a drink but he keeps on and on at me? If I tell him I have a boyfriend and I'm just trying to have a chat with the girls and he refuses to go away? If I'm walking to the taxi rank and he follows me even though I've told him I'm fine? If I leave a bar having made it clear I'm not interested and he follows me to another bar? If he follows me every time I go to the toilets? I'm the problem? Really?

Has it ever occurred to you how stupid it is to leave a safe crowded area and walk to a taxi with one of these creeps around?

Chunners

Bambi wrote: »

Has it ever occurred to you how stupid it is to leave a safe crowded area and walk to a taxi with one of these creeps around?

That doesn't answer her questions, that just says "Well it's your own fault for trying to get home to safety" like how ****ing dare she try to get home to her own house when there is a man around who doesn't understand the concept of "No means no" because the dress she is wearing is triggering his primal urges...

ash23

Bambi wrote: »

Has it ever occurred to you how stupid it is to leave a safe crowded area and walk to a taxi with one of these creeps around?

Main street. Pub straight to taxi rank with people milling around outside the two chippers nearby. I'm not stupid thanks.

Better to get myself in a taxi while the street is busy than wait for the person to maybe give up but in the meantime the crowds thin out.

smurgen

Chunners wrote: »

Listen love I don't know if you get it but I have been agreeing with you that what happened to you was hideous, I am not making excuses for anyone because male or female both genders are capable of being assholes but don't forget that the females here aren't the ones who did that to you, it was an isolated incident in that it all revolved around your job at the time so the person you should be angry with is your ex bosses wife not me



I never said it was right or I was joking, I just asked if he did anything about it. It was a query not a suggestion so calm down.

Those were just the things I can remember.there were multiple incidents,not isolated ones.I'm not mad at women at all and that's the point I'm trying to make.the attacks on me were serious enough bit I brushed them off, and wouldn't let it influence my future relationships with women.You have some women in here going ott because some men tried to buy them a drink or sat at the the same table as them.big woop if someone's making you feel uncomfortable then take action.simple as.and don't make all men out to be potential Larry Murphy's because of it.
I'm attacking this video also and I believe it's biased against men.it has an agenda and is purposefully edited to make men in general look opportunistic.

ash23

smurgen wrote: »

you have some women in here going ott because some men tried to buy them a drink of dat at the the same table as them.big woop if someone's making you feel uncomfortable then take action.simple as.and don't make all men out to be potential Larry Murphy's because of it

That is a complete misrepresentation of what I actually posted.

My post was about men who ignore when a woman states she is not interested and proceed to insist on carrying on with what they're doing even if she has been quite clear.
You say to take action. Saying "no thanks" is an action. Saying "that seat is actually taken" or "I'm not interested". That is also the woman taking action and should be more than enough to deter the man from continuing.

Where is the logic that it's not enough to politely decline? What sort of man persists when he's been told no? What sort of man needs to be crudely roared at to get the message? I wouldn't liken a man like that to Larry Murphy but a man like that has serious boundary issues and not much respect for women.

Dyr

Chunners wrote: »

That doesn't answer her questions, that just says "Well it's your own fault for trying to get home to safety" like how ****ing dare she try to get home to her own house when there is a man around who doesn't understand the concept of "No means no" because the dress she is wearing is triggering his primal urges...

No it ****ing does'nt suggest its her own fault, thats a utterly ridiculous conclusion to draw but congrats on the knee jerk off the shelf response.

Jesus wept.

Chunners

smurgen wrote: »

Those were just the things I can remember.there were multiple incidents,not isolated ones.I'm not mad at women at all and that's the point I'm trying to make.the attacks on me were serious enough bit I brushed them off.You have some women in here going ott because some men tried to buy them a drink of dat at the the same table as them.big woop if someone's making you feel uncomfortable then take action.simple as.and don't make all men out to be potential Larry Murphy's because of it.
I'm attacking this video also and I believe it's biased against men.it has an agenda and is purposefully edited to make men in general look opportunistic.

As I said none of my posts were related to the video, actually most of the females who replied with stories of their own were not talking about the video, like me they were replying to the question in the OP "So what's peoples thoughts on this? Have any men or women here ever experienced similar? " as you (unawares to yourself) did too when you shared your story.

As for the video making men look opportunistic there is a grain of truth in that because it is edited a lot so I totally agree but there is also a grain of truth in the fact that it does happen none the less, if it didn't this thread wouldn't be this long with stories from women of when it has happened

Chunners

Bambi wrote: »

No it ****ing does'nt suggest its her own fault, thats a utterly ridiculous conclusion to draw but congrats on the knee jerk off the shelf response.

Jesus wept.

Well actually it does, instead of saying "well you were lucky to get away from the situation" you basically asked "So is there something you think you could have done to avoid that situation?" when the fact is she shouldn't have to avoid the situation in the first place, you put the blame on her. You may as well have just said "well you knew he was a perv so it's your fault for not being more careful not his for following his primal urges" like honestly congratulations on making her feel crap about the fact that she should feel crap about going for a taxi and assuming that she could actually do that simple thing without being followed by a freak

Piliger

smurgen wrote: »

It's this melodramatic approach that annoys me.we don't live in a perfect world,grow up!teach pragmatism,not idealism to your kids and they'll know how to protect themselves.

Exactly. This kind of nonsense where women demand men have all to be nice nice nice or else men are all nasty evil people and we'll post videos and crazy stories about them every day in the media. They refuse to face an imperfect world where some people are rude and some are clumsy - and where some women say they like men to pursue them and some say it's harassment, and some women say they want a man to persist and other say they think that is harassment and some want to be approached and some say that's harassment too, and where some women come home and say how a man whistled at her with immense pride and some claims it's yet another form or harassment !

Funny how it is ALL men's fault ! It's never the woman's responsibly. It's never the women who are told to change ! It's always the men who have to all of the changing.

osarusan

Piliger wrote: »

Funny how it is ALL men's fault ! It's never the woman's responsibly. It's never the women who are told to change ! It's always the men who have to all of the changing.

You poor, poor man.

AndreaCollins

I've lived in new york and trust me, this girl went to the HOOD in new york. I recognise the places being filmed and Dublins equivalent would be Ballymun or Coolock. Did she expect guys to be offering her flowers? These are known as the roughest places in the city. There was no footage of the midtown area which is where a lot of educated people stay and the girls that are around that area are known to be very very attractive. I have seen more attractive girls in that area in 30 minutes than I'd see in Dublin in one day. New York tends to attract those kinds of girls though since a lot of models, actresses and even girls not famous but in search of their dreams go there. Just living in New York is a dream for a lot of them. I can guarantee you that this girl would not even get a second look in this area and in many other areas of New York.

eternal

She is not stunning looking but is pretty. I don't see how she got so much attention tbh. She must have walked endlessly to find anyone at all that would notice her. Men in Ireland don't comment like that at all, but men abroad do. Most of the guys on that were being friendly not harrassing.

eternal

AndreaCollins wrote: »

I've lived in new york and trust me, this girl went to the HOOD in new york. I recognise the places being filmed and Dublins equivalent would be Ballymun or Coolock. Did she expect guys to be offering her flowers? These are known as the roughest places in the city. There was no footage of the midtown area which is where a lot of educated people stay and the girls that are around that area are known to be very very attractive. I have seen more attractive girls in that area in 30 minutes than I'd see in Dublin in one day. New York tends to attract those kinds of girls though since a lot of models, actresses and even girls not famous but in search of their dreams go there. Just living in New York is a dream for a lot of them. I can guarantee you that this girl would not even get a second look in this area and in many other areas of New York.

I agree with this even though I have not been there but I kind of meant that in my post.

eternal

FORCED_lines wrote: »

it is made to look that they were harassing her but its only a act !
the whole thing was planned and not very well !

I don't care really. They should have found someone better looking.

jill_valentine

I've been yelled at out of cars, I've been followed home, I've been told to smile, I've been chased down the street and I've had chaps actually physically pull my headphones off my head "just to say hi". Not the 'hood - George's Street, O'Connell Street, Stoneybatter.

What I took too long to learn is that there is absolutely no way out of these weird little traps without a real threat of something very crappy except "I've got a boyfriend".

tigger123

FORCED_lines wrote: »

but you don't have a boyfriend ! just full of fem piss lol

Such wit and charm!

kjl

It happens to men too, I have come home with a bruised bottom from the amount of women pinching it in a night club. You don't see me complaining.

RDM_83 again

tigger123 wrote: »

Such wit and charm!

Just report it don;t respond, apologies for back seat modding.

Frigga_92

kjl wrote: »

It happens to men too, I have come home with a bruised bottom from the amount of women pinching it in a night club. You don't see me complaining.

It's entirely a matter for yourself what you will and won't put up with.

This isn't a competition between men and women to see who gets harassed the most or the worst. There is nobody keeping score.
Can people not accept that the experiences posted in this thread which made people feel uncomfortable, threatened or intimidated were harassment and are therefore unacceptable ways to interact with them?

RDM_83 again

ash23 wrote: »

...

My post was about men who ignore when a woman states she is not interested and proceed to insist on carrying on with what they're doing even if she has been quite clear.
You say to take action. Saying "no thanks" is an action. Saying "that seat is actually taken" or "I'm not interested". That is also the woman taking action and should be more than enough to deter the man from continuing.

Where is the logic that it's not enough to politely decline? What sort of man persists when he's been told no? What sort of man needs to be crudely roared at to get the message? I wouldn't liken a man like that to Larry Murphy but a man like that has serious boundary issues and not much respect for women.

Wish I could thank this more than once because its actually completely clear whats meant unlike a lot of other posts in the where it comes down to mannerism and obviousness of intent which are completely subjective, which sort of need to be dealt with if your actually serious about improving these things (which I doubt this campaign is anyway)

Approaching a stranger - probably annoying/creepy but not harrasment*

Ignoring request - harrasment

* yelling/cat calling is abuse nobody enjoys it

Princess Peach

eternal wrote: »

She is not stunning looking but is pretty. I don't see how she got so much attention tbh. She must have walked endlessly to find anyone at all that would notice her. Men in Ireland don't comment like that at all, but men abroad do. Most of the guys on that were being friendly not harrassing.

I'm average looking and have gotten this countless times in Ireland.

Earliest I can remember is near the end of primary, or maybe start of secondary school when I started to walk home by myself in the afternoon, passing the largest boys school in my town on the way. It was a rare day if there wasn't some jeer. First time I was physically harassed I was maybe 14 and some guy passing stuck his hand up my skirt and laughed with his friends.

Sadly I did what many on this thread advise and I just learned to deal with it, thought it was normal behaviour in a way! I've gotten worse since school and it often made me uncomfortable and sometimes scared, but didn't ever say or think much on it because I was am used to it.

Only lately seeing these kind of videos and articles, and there are Irish articles on this, that it's started to bother me again. I think we need to get word out that this kind of behaviour isn't acceptable, rather than telling people to learn to deal with it.

Frigga_92

eternal wrote: »

She is not stunning looking but is pretty. I don't see how she got so much attention tbh. She must have walked endlessly to find anyone at all that would notice her. Men in Ireland don't comment like that at all, but men abroad do. Most of the guys on that were being friendly not harrassing.

So you need to be stunning looking to qualify for sexual harassment

Men in Ireland do comment like that, read the thread.

ash23

Piliger wrote: »

Exactly. This kind of nonsense where women demand men have all to be nice nice nice or else men are all nasty evil people and we'll post videos and crazy stories about them every day in the media. They refuse to face an imperfect world where some people are rude and some are clumsy - and where some women say they like men to pursue them and some say it's harassment, and some women say they want a man to persist and other say they think that is harassment and some want to be approached and some say that's harassment too, and where some women come home and say how a man whistled at her with immense pride and some claims it's yet another form or harassment !

Funny how it is ALL men's fault ! It's never the woman's responsibly. It's never the women who are told to change ! It's always the men who have to all of the changing.

Following a woman home after she's told you to leave her alone isn't just rude or clumsy. Completely ignoring her body language and her request to be left alone isn't clumsy.
Can you not fathom how threatening it feels to have someone you know is bigger and stronged than you following you around. To actually feel like you might be in danger?
You're taking the mildest bits of what is posted and defending it.
From my post you told me I have a problem and that what I had experienced was just men being clumsy. Even though I posted about a fairly serious sexual assault I'd experienced. Did you miss that bit or something?
Even aside from that some stranger hanging around outside my work and then telling me to get into his car for a lift home? Not clumsy just fu"king weird and intimidating and scary.
Why the hell should I put up with that because some fools have a misguided notion that when a woman says she's not interested she actually means "try harder".

smurgen

26sdrawkcab wrote: »

So you need to be stunning looking to qualify for sexual harassment

Men in Ireland do comment like that, read the thread.

Men in ireland? This is the **** that irks me. I never shouted at any passer by in my life. Some men in Ireland do.not men in Ireland.

osarusan

Jesus Christ.

What we saw in the video, and the experiences posters (male and female) have shared, should tell us something - this kind of stuff is harassment at worst, sometimes very creepy, and even when relatively harmless it's (with perhaps one exception on this thread) unwanted attention.

If you (laughably claim that you) didn't know it before and that it was just well-meaning comments, well you know now.

Posters trying to turn this into a 'poor men, what are we to do' discussion - what a joke.

jill_valentine

Karl Hanke wrote: »

people have the right to attempt to engage other people in conversation

I don't understand how people can understand what's annoying or intimidating about banks of chuggers and not understand what's wrong with this **** in the street.

Let me tell you a secret - my big giant headphones? Aren't plugged into anything. They're a good luck charm to give me a better shot of getting from A to B without some creep following me around or imposing an argument on me.

I've not experienced harrassment on the scale seen in the video here, but yis are living in a parallel universe if you think it doesn't happen on the main street of Dublin city.

If you wouldn't say it to her when she's walking with a boyfriend, don't fecking say it to her when she's on her own. This is not a mutual "social" experience - she's not getting anything out of it, she doesn't want you to talk to her. If you're a "social" animal, you'd be able to pick up on the incredibly basic cues which give this away.

Frigga_92

eternal wrote: »

She is not stunning looking but is pretty. I don't see how she got so much attention tbh. She must have walked endlessly to find anyone at all that would notice her. Men in Ireland don't comment like that at all, but men abroad do. Most of the guys on that were being friendly not harrassing.

26sdrawkcab wrote: »

So you need to be stunning looking to qualify for sexual harassment

Men in Ireland do comment like that, read the thread.

smurgen wrote: »

Men in ireland? This is the **** that irks me. I never shouted at any passer by in my life. Some men in Ireland do.not men in Ireland.

I was responding to that comment.

eternal

eternal wrote: »

Men in Ireland don't comment like that at all

This thread - including my own first post on this thread - are replete with examples of you simply being entirely wrong here. Perhaps you meant to include some qualifier in your post such as "The majority of" at the start? But without such a qualifier it simply has to be pointed out that you could not be more wrong. There very much is men in Ireland who do this. Irish and foreign nationals both - and some of them can be creepier and more threatening than anything we saw in the video above. Again read my first post for examples of this.

Zulu

There are two clear thing emerging here, and I think some people are guilty of confusing/blending the two which is causing (I believe) the lions share of the debate.

The first one is clear harassment. eg: following someone home or as per the video following them for 5 mins gawping at them.
These are not the actions of a normal, sane person. And as such can not be condoned. I challenge anyone here who thinks this type of behavior is acceptable to put there hands up now. (I suspect there's going to be resounding silence)

The second one is the more debatable harassment. eg: chatting someone up/sitting down beside them (as has been mentioned in thread) or as per the video "good morning beautiful"/"have a nice day".
The problem I have here is that some people are communicating a message that "if it makes me uncomfortable it's not ok". This is the utter illogical rubbish that appears to be manufactured from some sewing circles and simply doesn't hold up to the most basic scrutiny.

For example: if this applies equally to all citizens of a society, lets say:
1.) I'm a big scary rough looking man with tatoos and I sit down beside you. I'm scary. I scare you. So I'm not ok. <fail>
2.) I'm a racist. You're black. You sit down beside me. I feel uncomfortable. So you are not ok. <fail>
3.) I'm a traveler. I sit down beside you. You feel uncomfortable. So I'm not ok. <fail>
4.) I'm looking to pull. I'm ugly and awkward. I try to chat you up. I make you feel uncomfortable. So I'm not ok <pass? really??>

Look, in an ideal world, no one should be made to feel uncomfortable. However in a practical world if my simple existence makes you feel uncomfortable in a dark alley, that's not my fault (I need to walk home too). And the solution isn't to pander to your insecurities by removing me. Sometimes we all need to toughen up a little.

osarusan

Zulu wrote: »

The problem I have here is that some people are communicating a message that "if it makes me uncomfortable it's not ok". This is the utter illogical rubbish that appears to be manufactured from some sewing circles and simply doesn't hold up to the most basic scrutiny.

For example: if this applies equally to all citizens of a society, lets say:
1.) I'm a big scary rough looking man with tatoos and I sit down beside you. I'm scary. I scare you. So I'm not ok. <fail>
2.) I'm a racist. You're black. You sit down beside me. I feel uncomfortable. So you are not ok. <fail>
3.) I'm a traveler. I sit down beside you. You feel uncomfortable. So I'm not ok. <fail>
4.) I'm looking to pull. I'm ugly and awkward. I try to chat you up. I make you feel uncomfortable. So I'm not ok <pass? really??>

Look, in an ideal world, no one should be made to feel uncomfortable. However in a practical world if my simple existence makes you feel uncomfortable in a dark alley, that's not my fault (I need to walk home too). And the solution isn't to pander to your insecurities by removing me. Sometimes we all need to toughen up a little.

This is a masterpiece of a strawman argument.

Nobody has said that it is the simple existence of the people making comments that makes people feel uncomfortable, it is the actions that people choose to take, knowing that in the vast majority of cases, these actions will cause someone to be creeped out or feel uncomfortable.

A big scary looking man can't really change the fact that he's a big scary looking man. A black person can't change the fact that they're black. At traveller, for the most part, can't change the fact that they are a traveller.

But the people making these comments are behaving in this way can, very very easily, change their behaviour with the result that nobody feels creeped out or uncomfortable.

It is ridiculous to try and conflate the two, and just another attempt of the poster trying to skew the discussion towards "oh, us poor men, in trouble just for being men."

ash23

Zulu wrote: »

There are two clear thing emerging here, and I think some people are guilty of confusing/blending the two which is causing (I believe) the lions share of the debate.

The first one is clear harassment. eg: following someone home or as per the video following them for 5 mins gawping at them.
These are not the actions of a normal, sane person. And as such can not be condoned. I challenge anyone here who thinks this type of behavior is acceptable to put there hands up now. (I suspect there's going to be resounding silence)

The second one is the more debatable harassment. eg: chatting someone up/sitting down beside them (as has been mentioned in thread) or as per the video "good morning beautiful"/"have a nice day".
The problem I have here is that some people are communicating a message that "if it makes me uncomfortable it's not ok". This is the utter illogical rubbish that appears to be manufactured from some sewing circles and simply doesn't hold up to the most basic scrutiny.

For example: if this applies equally to all citizens of a society, lets say:
1.) I'm a big scary rough looking man with tatoos and I sit down beside you. I'm scary. I scare you. So I'm not ok. <fail>
2.) I'm a racist. You're black. You sit down beside me. I feel uncomfortable. So you are not ok. <fail>
3.) I'm a traveler. I sit down beside you. You feel uncomfortable. So I'm not ok. <fail>
4.) I'm looking to pull. I'm ugly and awkward. I try to chat you up. I make you feel uncomfortable. So I'm not ok <pass? really??>

Look, in an ideal world, no one should be made to feel uncomfortable. However in a practical world if my simple existence makes you feel uncomfortable in a dark alley, that's not my fault (I need to walk home too). And the solution isn't to pander to your insecurities by removing me. Sometimes we all need to toughen up a little.

There's a massive difference though between approaching someone and asking "can I sit here?" and walking away when they say that the seat is taken and just sitting there without asking and refusing to move when asked.

I've no issue with someone sitting beside me on a bus or train as long as they don't keep bothering me.

Similarly everyone has to get home so I've no problem with you walking down the same laneway as me at night. But I do have a problem if it's late and dark and you start saying things like "hey gorgeous where are you heading? "

A bit of cop on is required. Most women wouldn't have a problem with being approached In a respectful way.Cat calling is not a respectful aapproach.
Similarly most people should be aware that a polite no still means no. It shouldn't have to get to the extreme of having to repeatedly say no and no again.
Approaching anyone late at night in a secluded area should be common sense anyway. Most people will be wary enough at that anyway without making them even more uncomfortable.

No woman here has said men should never approach women. Just that they should avoid cat calling or being ott about the way they do it. And accept the no and walk away.

razorblunt

There's a lot to be said for the calibre of men in that video though, idiots hanging out on sidewalks or street vendors. Not all of it was harrassment but as a man you have to facepalm the likes of those fellas that continually shout her and the less said about the lads following her the better.

You see lads like this every weekend in town, they just can't take the hint.

You'd see this alot in Paris too especially in the train stations, lads cracking onto girls and not taking the hint. Horribly awkward, had to step in once for an American tourist on the way to the airport. Creeps.

minotour

we have responded!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpJYnLrzB8I

Playboy

Dr. Lollington wrote: »

No, I don't think it had anything to with race in Brixton really. The majority of people there are black to be fair but there's a fair clatter of white people there now too.

it's just men hanging around on Brixton hill drinking cans of cheap p*ss. They probably mean no harm and are just bored or they find it funny. It never really bothered me but one time a gang of about four men started walking in front of me and circling me. That was scary and taking it too far.

i think that's what it comes down to. No women is gonna mind a man saying' Hey sexy. have a good day'. You might even be flattered. It's just knowing where to draw the line between the messers and the genuine weirdos who could actually harm you. There's an underlying fear that's been instilled in woman to be on your guard in case you're dragged down a lane-way and raped! Sad but true.

I'm sorry but Brixton is well known for that kind of behaviour. You dont have to be goodlooking to get attention from multiple men in Brixton. Unfortunately it has something to do with certain cultures, a lot of men from afro-carribean descent think its par for the course to approach women on the street, yell something, follow a girl etc. Thats why you have so much of this type of behavior in parts of south and east london. I have had my fair share of run-ins with guys who were getting aggressive and creepy with girl-friends of mine on a night out in Brixton/Clapham.

Ficheall

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Approaching a stranger - probably annoying/creepy

Since we're lauding clarity - can you confirm what you mean here?

gozunda

Back to basics

1. Making unwanted comments calls / following a stranger is downright rude and a stupid thing to do.

2. If your wife / partner / sister / daughter was subjected to similar remarks or behaviour - alone in a city - how would you feel about it? Put yourself in their place.

3. We are not all Neanderthals - you don't have to beat the chest and voice your excitement or otherwise at others.

4. This type of behaviour does appears to be 'accepted' in some cultures more than others. That doesn't make it right or acceptable.

DeadHand

Posters seem quick to dismiss and belittle women's experiences of harassment by men but it's a genuine, common problem I've seen it myself.

Myself, I've never shouted at a woman in the street not out of some noble feminist ideal (modern feminism has evolved from virtuous beginings into a wretched, divisive idealology imo) but because it's simply bad manners.

And look, a lot of whatboutery being deployed on this thread but anyone who has been out in the world a little will tell you that male sexual harrassment and general creepiness toward women and other men is far more prevalent than female sexual harassment and general creepiness toward men and other women. That is not to say that the latter doesn't exist, it does, but it is not a problem that is nearly as pervasive as the former.

I've seen it in action countless times when out with gfs, female friends or even just out. I've seen the reptile machinations of guys who impose themselves on women in a social setting and it makes my skin crawl. Forcing themselves into their company uninvited, refusing to accept their clear disinterest, insisting on interactions (I'll walk you home, I'll get you a drink) when it's so obvious that none is desired.

I had a girlfriend who was an eminently kind and approachable person. Which I loved but I found it also made her attract freaks like a lamp attracts flies. I couldn't handle this well at first but I eventually learned to let her fight her own battles, up to a point. Her having friendly conversations with fellas never bothered me nor did reasonable approaches that ended when she declined them. It was the guys who bugged her that did. In person and through technology. No, I didn't trawl through her phone and facebook, she complained of the constant, unwanted messages aloud. These guys knew she had a boyfriend.

Still, it was a bone of contention between us. A source of tension. She would accuse me of being overprotective. I don't know, maybe I was. In the end, it was one of many factors that ended what was, at times, a beautiful relationship.

Anyway, the point is genuinely creepy guys ruin everything for everyone. Well intentioned single guys (the vast majority) will see their perfectly reasonable advances cut down more rapidly and harshly than is fair by jaded girls weary of the slithering of the creeps. Girls out to enjoy themselves see their time wasted and mood spoiled by these vermin. Boyfriends, relatives and male friends that may happen to be out with their female loved ones are provoked into being more defensive and aggressive than they want to be or is wise.

Everyone's night gets wrecked.

My own experiences of being harassed? I've been touched and groped a few times in pubs/clubs. I thought nothing of it, nor did I enjoy it. It's such a rarity for me I can laugh it off or dismiss it easily. It doesn't make me feel threatened. It didn't make me feel good. I realise that if it happened with greater regularity, I wasn't a naturally stoic person or if I wasn't lucky enough never to have been sexually abused I would not have the capability or inclination to do this. This is why, in an ideal world, no-one touches anyone in a sexual manner uninvited.

Male posters are swinging into this thread to tell horror stories about sexually aggressive female behaviour toward them but, without wishing to dismiss anyone's ordeals, I can't help but feel there is an element of exaggeration for the sake of political pointscoring going on.

From my own experiences, nothing will convince me that the harrassment of women in social settings is not a real, common problem or that female on male harrassment is as prevalent as male on female harassment.

Zulu

osarusan wrote: »

This is a masterpiece of a strawman argument.

Nobody has said that it is the simple existence of the people making comments that makes people feel uncomfortable, it is the actions that people choose to take, knowing that in the vast majority of cases, these actions will cause someone to be creeped out or feel uncomfortable.

Fair play; a masterclass in avoiding/ignoring the salient point by yourself.

The fact that you have missed the first part of my post, and the salient point entirely (probably as it didn't suit your argument) explains why your retort isn't really applicable to my point.