Sexy street harassment

Duck Soup

A few things have confused me as the various strands of opinion have developed on this thread.

Firstly, none of the guys who take the "it's non-sexual/they should toughen up" side of the argument appear to have talked to a woman to find out their views. Why, it's as though they don't want a living, breathing female's perspective. Or they don't know any women.

Conversations I've had with a couple of friends suggest that they know when a random guy starts up a conversation that it's someone hitting on them, no matter how you dress it up. Part of this is informed by the fact that both women are now 40+ and after a certain age the comments disappear like summer morning mist.

Why is it, if the comments are non-sexual in genesis, that no one asks a fifty year old woman to "Smile love, it might never happen." Perhaps as you get older the odds of 'it' happening - whatever 'it' is - increase dramatically. Worse, perhaps it's already happened.

But I come back to it - why aren't older women asked for a smile? Bad teeth?

Tasden

Duck Soup wrote: »

A few things have confused me as the various strands of opinion have developed on this thread.

Firstly, none of the guys who take the "it's non-sexual/they should toughen up" side of the argument appear to have talked to a woman to find out their views. Why, it's as though they don't want a living, breathing female's perspective. Or they don't know any women.

Conversations I've had with a couple of friends suggest that they know when a random guy starts up a conversation that it's someone hitting on them, no matter how you dress it up. Part of this is informed by the fact that both women are now 40+ and after a certain age the comments disappear like summer morning mist.

Why is it, if the comments are non-sexual in genesis, that no one asks a fifty year old woman to "Smile love, it might never happen." Perhaps as you get older the odds of 'it' happening - whatever 'it' is - increase dramatically. Worse, perhaps it's already happened.

But I come back to it - why aren't older women asked for a smile? Bad teeth?

I wouldn't automatically assume comments like that are someone trying to hit on me, sure if that was the case then the 70 year old man that called me beautiful the other day thought he was in with a shot, it is sometimes just a genuine compliment.

That's not to say its appreciated or that it's ok if it is just a compliment/comment but it isn't always a sexual advance.

BeerWolf

Such a set up video - intentionally walking through a GHETTO neighbourhood with mostly nothing but blacks...

P. Breathnach

BeerWolf wrote: »

Such a set up video - intentionally walking through a GHETTO neighbourhood with mostly nothing but blacks...

You should have gone to Specsavers.

smash

I sometimes think Waterford Whispers read AH for inspiration

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2014/10/30/chick-in-that-sexual-harassment-video-isnt-even-that-good-looking-says-guy/

I must admit that if so many people told me to have a good day, I'd be absolutely chuffed.

As someone mentioned - what exactly is donating to this charity going to do? I mean, I sincerely doubt that it will stop anything. If you want to try and put a stop to it, educate people. Teach respect.

Generic Dreadhead

Deleted User wrote: »

I must admit that if so many people told me to have a good day, I'd be absolutely chuffed.

As someone mentioned - what exactly is donating to this charity going to do? I mean, I sincerely doubt that it will stop anything. If you want to try and put a stop to it, educate people. Teach respect.

I'm more inclined to listen to you as you have a Scroobius Pip signature, make of that what you will

Cormac...

Cormac... wrote: »

I'm more inclined to listen to you as you have a Scroobius Pip signature, make of that what you will

Completely forgot I had it, tbh!

smurgen

denhaagenite wrote: »

I am a feminist, as is my husband and most of our friends- this means that we are all in favour of equal rights, treatment, pay etc etc etc for both men and women. This video is not something new but it is appalling. What difference does it make if these are rubbish areas in New York? I don't think they are but that's beside the point. These men are disgusting, aggressive and threatening and it is a problem that needs to be highlighted. Nobody deserves to be abused and objectified like this woman was by simply leaving her home.

Last Friday I was in a busy bar having a drink and a guy walked up behind me and grabbed my breast while passing. He hadn't even seen my face. I didn't feel violated, I just felt angry, extremely angry. I felt like punching him in the face. I started shouting at him which he obviously didn't expect but was delighted with because his plan had worked- he had engaged my attention. He didn't even care what the emotion behind it was, flattery, fear, rage didn't matter to him at all because in his mind, I am not even a person. It was loud, my friends didn't really understand what was happening and thought he had maybe stepped on my foot. They sent him on his way but were shocked at what they thought was an overreaction to an accident. When I clarified the situation afterwards, they were apologetic to me and livid that this had happened, but I must admit that I didn't make too big of an issue out of it at the time in case a fight started.

It's an absolute joke. I should be able to go where I like without be assaulted like this. I should be able to walk the way I want to walk without someone trying to follow me, objectify me, intimidate me, make me feel less than I'm actually worth. I should be able to go out for a drink with my friends without being groped in public. I wouldn't put up with it from my partner, let alone a total stranger who without even seeing me decided that he can put his hands on me without my permission. Ditto for someone screaming "I just saw $1000 go by" at a woman just walking past. What a f**king horrible thing to think, formulate into words and communicate to someone and in fact a street full of people.

That's a disgraceful incident.I don't mind a bit of banter bit incidents like that are clearly over the line.You should report that person to the bar staff at minimum.You could also escalate it and call the guards.

kylith

smurgen wrote: »

That's a disgraceful incident.I don't mind a bit of banter bit incidents like that are clearly over the line.You should report that person to the bar staff at minimum.You could also escalate it and call the guards.

There's a thread over in the Ladies' forum where people have talked of their experiences of reporting such incidents. Basically, it's not worth your while. Bouncers will just shrug their shoulders and tell you that there are too many people in there for them to try find whoever did it.

Cathy.C

Is it just me, or did anyone else get the distinct impression that many of the men knew that this girl was being filmed? Most seem to give her quite quizzical looks as they say what they did. It was if to say 'why is this woman being filmed'. We are also told they walked around for ten hours. Well, if you walk around a small part of New York for ten hours, people will notice you. They will wonder to themselves why is that girl with a determined emotionless expression on her face walking around in circles all day, and always right behind that same guy carrying that odd looking backpack.

Giving all concerned the benefit of the doubt though, this whole thing feels as if it is just being exaggerated to push the usual agenda down people's throats that women are being oppressed 24/7. Whereas, much of the comments were harmless and a million miles away from "harassment". What they should have done was just include the more contemptible comments, as then almost everyone would have been on their side but by including some quite harmless remarks, they have split opinion as a result.

I personally get a few comments from guys but never to the degree that I would feel offended or harassed. I often feel objectified, but to be fair when I'm in the company of girls we often will make comments to men which objectify them, especially if we are drunk and walking from a bar to a club.

denhaagenite wrote: »

Last Friday I was in a busy bar having a drink and a guy walked up behind me and grabbed my breast while passing. He hadn't even seen my face. I didn't feel violated, I just felt angry, extremely angry. I felt like punching him in the face. I started shouting at him which he obviously didn't expect but was delighted with because his plan had worked- he had engaged my attention. He didn't even care what the emotion behind it was, flattery, fear, rage didn't matter to him at all because in his mind, I am not even a person. It was loud, my friends didn't really understand what was happening and thought he had maybe stepped on my foot. They sent him on his way but were shocked at what they thought was an overreaction to an accident. When I clarified the situation afterwards, they were apologetic to me and livid that this had happened, but I must admit that I didn't make too big of an issue out of it at the time in case a fight started.

I'm not sure what this has to do with this discussion though. I've had men get too hands on but that is something much different. Nobody touched the girl in the video and besides, men I'm sure will tell you that they too have to deal with unwanted physical contact in clubs and bars when out at night.

RobYourBuilder

denhaagenite wrote: »

Last Friday I was in a busy bar having a drink and a guy walked up behind me and grabbed my breast while passing. He hadn't even seen my face. I didn't feel violated, I just felt angry, extremely angry. I felt like punching him in the face. I started shouting at him which he obviously didn't expect but was delighted with because his plan had worked- he had engaged my attention. He didn't even care what the emotion behind it was, flattery, fear, rage didn't matter to him at all because in his mind, I am not even a person. It was loud, my friends didn't really understand what was happening and thought he had maybe stepped on my foot. They sent him on his way but were shocked at what they thought was an overreaction to an accident. When I clarified the situation afterwards, they were apologetic to me and livid that this had happened, but I must admit that I didn't make too big of an issue out of it at the time in case a fight started.

Did you report this incident to the cops?

RobYourBuilder

Chunners wrote: »

Any argument you try to make is moot after that line, read the whole thread and then ask the same questions. If you decide you can't be arsed to read it then then we can decide we can't be arsed to answer your questions since you are asking them under a presumption and without the full facts of the thread

No facts in this thread. Just a load of anecdotes. Love your use of the royal we and the American phrase 'e-peen'.

Knock the tumblr on the head for a while. You'll be the better for it.

denhaagenite

smurgen wrote: »

That's a disgraceful incident.I don't mind a bit of banter bit incidents like that are clearly over the line.You should report that person to the bar staff at minimum.You could also escalate it and call the guards.

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Did you report this incident to the cops?

I'm ashamed to say I didn't. The incident was over in seconds, I was there with my husband and two male friends, there was drink taken and as I said, didn't want things to escalate to violence which I suspected it might. I should have said something to the bouncer but it was a bit of a shock and I just wanted to leave. One of my friends had a word with the bouncer the next day. Honestly I'm not sure how seriously they would take it if people involved had been drinking when it was reported.

It's not the first time that something like this has happened either. I was once at a party on holidays where a guy actually put his hand up my skirt.

Cathy.C wrote: »

I'm not sure what this has to do with this discussion though. I've had men get too hands on but that is something much different. Nobody touched the girl in the video and besides, men I'm sure will tell you that they too have to deal with unwanted physical contact in clubs and bars when out at night.

I accept that it's different but there is a spectrum and these words and incidents are just in different places on it. To be honest, I would feel more comfortable being groped when I'm nice and safe with my friends than I would if I was alone, being followed home, even in broad daylight. Like someone said before, if there is someone I suspect to be following me I walk into a shop or something so that they won't know where I'm really going, too spooked to leave in case they are still watching and will follow me again.

smurgen

kylith wrote: »

There's a thread over in the Ladies' forum where people have talked of their experiences of reporting such incidents. Basically, it's not worth your while. Bouncers will just shrug their shoulders and tell you that there are too many people in there for them to try find whoever did it.

Pretty much what I'd expect.main reason I didn't report any of mine either. A bit of immediate retribution is the only way it seems

RobYourBuilder

denhaagenite wrote: »

I'm ashamed to say I didn't. The incident was over in seconds, I was there with my husband and two male friends, there was drink taken and as I said, didn't want things to escalate to violence which I suspected it might. I should have said something to the bouncer but it was a bit of a shock and I just wanted to leave. One of my friends had a word with the bouncer the next day. Honestly I'm not sure how seriously they would take it if people involved had been drinking when it was reported.

Even though it's a week later, I think you should log the incident with the cops, giving the time, location, and a description of the man in question. What we deem not worth reporting, could be a vital piece of the jigsaw for the cops. You were with company. The next girl he tries it on with may not be.

P. Breathnach

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Even though it's a week later, I think you should log the incident with the cops, giving the time, location, and a description of the man in question. What we deem not worth reporting, could be a vital piece of the jigsaw for the cops. You were with company. The next girl he tries it on with may not be.

I'd like to agree with this advice; I really would.

But, with regret, I say that she would be wasting her time. Such assaults have become so commonplace that they are not taken with sufficient seriousness. Note what kylith said about the likely response of bouncers to such behaviour.

denhaagenite

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I'd like to agree with this advice; I really would.

But, with regret, I say that she would be wasting her time. Such assaults have become so commonplace that they are not taken with sufficient seriousness. Note what kylith said about the likely response of bouncers to such behaviour.

I really agree with this. Honestly I should have reported it to the bouncer at the time so at least he would know him in future, but I really felt there would have been an escalation and I didn't want that. If I had taken it to the cops he could have just denied it- the bar was pretty full. Part of me feels that it is my right to try and forget about it aswell, although that is a pretty selfish take on it.

RobYourBuilder

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I'd like to agree with this advice; I really would.

But, with regret, I say that she would be wasting her time. Such assaults have become so commonplace that they are not taken with sufficient seriousness. Note what kylith said about the likely response of bouncers to such behaviour.

Bouncers are not cops. If she logs the incident with the Dutch police, they can put it into their equivalent of PULSE. It may help them if this lad has previous or goes on to commit more violent assaults.

I don't think that it would be a waste of time and I'm a bit baffled that you would suggest that it would be.

Cathy.C

denhaagenite wrote: »

I accept that it's different but there is a spectrum and these words and incidents are just in different places on it. To be honest, I would feel more comfortable being groped when I'm nice and safe with my friends than I would if I was alone, being followed home, even in broad daylight.

Being groped is not at all on the same spectrum as unwanted comments though, that's the point. This is precisely I meant when I spoke of an agenda being pushed by some people. Why are they saying that they have had the same experiences as the girl in the video and then needlessly extrapolating on that by dragging their history of having been sexually assaulted into the discussion. This just gets everyone's backs up as it's suggesting that the two are quite similar when they are not. If these anecdotes stemmed from being followed, I would understand it but the majority of those which I have read on Facebook and Blogs over the past two or three days have not been at all. They just seem to be being shared to further their contention that there is an ever present rape culture.

Like someone said before, if there is someone I suspect to be following me I walk into a shop or something so that they won't know where I'm really going, too spooked to leave in case they are still watching and will follow me again.

That's perfectly fine, I would do the same if I felt I was being followed but not sure what that has to do with what you said previously. I don't mean to be having a go at you but I am seeing it everywhere over the past few days since this story went viral. If the video has been made to highlight something which is tolerated and shouldn't be, and it has, then why not just focus on that rather than dragging episodes of physical sexual assaults into the debate when we know well that these are things which society in no way whatsoever tolerates.

beks101

This thread is ridiculous.

How about we have a conversation about sexual harassment and assault and catcalling and what is quite frequently a violation of human rights out there on our streets WITHOUT it descending into 'all women are', 'all men are' and a Checkpoint Charlie style standoff?

Yes this video is inflaming, no it's not entirely clear what elements are involved in its manipulation to show an 'average' 'not that special' woman getting accosted and yelled at and objectified and sexually judged without provocation while walking down the street and no, that may not be typical of every women everywhere who opens the door and walks out of her house for whatever reason.

But it's a scenario that most women, exemplified by this thread, will be familiar with and therefore it's relevant for discussion. I'd personally like a reasonable discussion. I'm a woman, I've been to NYC and have been the subject of 5 x more male attention than anywhere else in the world; likewise I've walked down Grafton street and been left alone by any/all passersby. I currently live in a particularly 'vibrant' part of London where I've experienced everything from the benign/lighthearted ('Hey miss you dropped something...you dropped my heart!') to the sinister (followed down the road as I walked home from the gym) and all of those incidents allowed me to feel little more than an object and I am, horror of horrors, an 'average woman'.

And no, that doesn't mean that you as a dude are personally responsible. That does not mean that because you possess a penis, you have to foot the blame and aggressively defend other penis possessors who also happen to be idiots, socially inept, and incapable of respecting a woman's boundaries.

But it also doesn't mean that this culture doesn't exist, and it doesn't mean that you get to shout over the women who DO experience this kind of harassment/objectification/unwanted attention and dismiss every single one of their opinions as some kind of feminazi conspiracy.

How about we all try to shut the fcuk up and actually LISTEN to what the women (all women) who experience this kind of treatment FEEL about it? How about we wait for a woman who is talking about her experience of street attention to actually finish talking, before jumping in to defend all males everywhere and to tell her how WRONG she is to feel/think/act the way she does?

Is it unclear to you about why a woman would be upset about this kind of attention? Well how about, 'why did that upset you?' Instead of a barrage of assumptions and stereotypes and insults about how you'd LOVE to get the same 'compliments' about your looks and 'women these days are all...' and 'she's not that hot anyway'?

Defending a guy because you are a guy is not a legitimate response. It's like defending a mass murderer because you are a human being. It's knee-jerk, it's retarded, it's illogical and it adds nothing to the conversation. And yes, this should be a conversation, whether you think it should be or not. Whether you are a hater of the 'feminazi brigade' or not.

denhaagenite

Cathy.C wrote: »

Being groped is not at all on the same spectrum as unwanted comments though, that's the point. This is precisely I meant when I spoke of an agenda being pushed by some people. Why are they saying that they have had the same experiences as the girl in the video and then needlessly extrapolating on that by dragging their history of having been sexually assaulted into the discussion. This just gets everyone's backs up as it's suggesting that the two are quite similar when they are not. If these anecdotes stemmed from being followed, I would understand it but the majority of those which I have read on Facebook and Blogs over the past two or three days have not been at all. They just seem to be being shared to further their contention that there is an ever present rape culture.

I'm not pushing any agenda. It's not on the same place on the spectrum but it is on the same spectrum. Being spanked in a nightclub, ditto. It's one person forcing themselves on another person, physically or verbally, in order to get their attention.

Cathy.C wrote: »

That's perfectly fine, I would do the same if I felt I was being followed but not sure what that has to do with what you said previously. I don't mean to be having a go at you but I am seeing it everywhere over the past few days since this story went viral. If the video has been made to highlight something which is tolerated and shouldn't be, and it has, then why not just focus on that rather than dragging episodes of physical sexual assaults into the debate when we know well that these are things which society in no way whatsoever tolerates.

I said that I would feel safer with the groping when my friends were present than the being followed when by myself. None of it should be tolerated, and I'm trying to point out why it shouldn't be tolerated. I didn't feel unsafe at a time when I was actually being assaulted, I felt unsafe when someone has followed me. All I wanted to do was to be at home and I didn't feel safe enough to go there.

RobYourBuilder

How about we all try to shut the fcuk up and actually LISTEN to what the women (all women) who experience this kind of treatment FEEL about it? How about we wait for a woman who is talking about her experience of street attention to actually finish talking, before jumping in to defend all males everywhere and to tell her how WRONG she is to feel/think/act the way she does?

After we are finished listening, then what? Some of the people who said that they experienced harassment then claimed that it would be a waste of time to report it to the police. Even though there are laws in place to combat it. Talk is great and all, but what do you suggest that should be done?

'vibrant'

Are we speaking in codewords now?

So let me see if I've got this right, IF a chugger approaches you and demands you give over money and ignores your obvious wish to be left alone - that is unwelcome attention, harassment, an invasion of one's personal space, often rather intimidating and bad manners at least, and if threatening, criminal at worst.

IF a random man approaches you, demands you 'give' him a smile/remarks on your looks/tries to instigate an unwanted conversation and ignores a womans obvious wish to be left alone, makes unwelcome comments, or harasses her, or invades her personal space, or causes her to feel intimidated, or at the very, very least is guilty of obnoxious bad manners - it's a compliment for which she should be grateful and a harmless exchange, and probably prompted by what she's wearing and the street she's walking down, and if she didn't welcome it she should wear/walk something or somewhere else. Women should realise that being on the receiving end of a regular stream of commentary/judgement/harassment is just a form of exchanging pleasantries.

Furthermore, any attempt to stop this low level intrusion < scale<->scale > threatening harassment, is an attempt to deny people the right to be obnoxious and part of a feminist conspiracy to emasculate men by daring to make them uncomfortable about harassing/bothering women.

Got it.

denhaagenite

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

After we are finished listening, then what? Some of the people who said that they experienced harassment then claimed that it would be a waste of time to report it to the police. Even though there are laws in place to combat it. Talk is great and all, but what do you suggest that should be done?

I admit I should've reported it, but honestly was not sure what would be done about it. It's good to talk about it, and good that this woman highlighted it as a problem because 1. maybe it will educate some people not to harass others 2. now I know that the correct port of call should this happen again is the cops. After Hours has empowered me.

P. Breathnach

Cathy.C wrote: »

Being groped is not at all on the same spectrum as unwanted comments though...

I disagree. Yes, they are at different points on the spectrum, but the common element is that women are being treated as fair game.

RobYourBuilder

Tell the chuggers and the random men that approach you to get the boat. If they get physical or abusive, report the incident to the coppers. This is basic stuff.

kylith

A man puts himself in women's shoes. With a follow-up article for the 'But if we can't go up to women in cafes and on the street the species will die out!' crowd.

http://www.theferrett.com/ferrettworks/2012/08/can-i-buy-you-a-coffee/

P. Breathnach

Just musing: do the posts of a serial re-reg constitute harassment?

kylith

kylith wrote: »

A man puts himself in women's shoes. With a follow-up article for the 'But if we can't go up to women in cafes and on the street the species will die out!' crowd.

http://www.theferrett.com/ferrettworks/2012/08/can-i-buy-you-a-coffee/

He's nailed it really. This bit is particularly pertinent for the 'A girl called me sexy once, and I loved it!' crowd.

Harassment isn’t once. Harassment comes from a lifetime of dealing with people constantly doing things to you, whether you wanted them or not, at random intervals. You learn not to trust people. And what might have been pleasant, once, as an isolated incident, starts to feel pretty oppressive when it’s something you deal with on a weekly basis.

beks101

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

After we are finished listening, then what? Some of the people who said that they experienced harassment then claimed that it would be a waste of time to report it to the police. Even though there are laws in place to combat it. Talk is great and all, but what do you suggest that should be done?

Does it occur to you that most women wouldn't bother going to the police about this kind of treatment BECAUSE of the reactions that talking about it usually illicits?

It becomes a he-says-she-says get-over-yourself you-should-be-grateful victim-blaming debacle.

OldNotWIse

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Tell the chuggers and the random men that approach you to get the boat. If they get physical or abusive, report the incident to the coppers. This is basic stuff.

I was approached by someone in a pub last week and I told him that my friend and I were having a private conversation and asked if he could leave. He told me I was a being a stuck up c*nt.

Should I have called the police?

RobYourBuilder

beks101 wrote: »

Does it occur to you that most women wouldn't bother going to the police about this kind of treatment BECAUSE of the reactions that talking about it usually illicits?

It becomes a he-says-she-says get-over-yourself you-should-be-grateful victim-blaming debacle.

Ok, so. Going to the cops is out. What do you suggest we do to combat it instead?

P. Breathnach

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I was approached by someone in a pub last week and I told him that my friend and I were having a private conversation and asked if he could leave. He told me I was a being a stuck up c*nt.

Should I have called the police?

In any pub that I drink in, telling the barman would have been enough to have him thrown out.

DeadHand

Mister Vain wrote: »

I disagree. She's a white woman with a black womans arse walking through a black neighborhood.

Did she return it after the experiment?

RobYourBuilder

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I was approached by someone in a pub last week and I told him that my friend and I were having a private conversation and asked if he could leave. He told me I was a being a stuck up c*nt.

Should I have called the police?

Did you speak with the head barman/bar manager? The lad would have got the hook and have been sent on his way. If you don't report these things then they will continue to happen.

Foxtrol

beks101 wrote: »

How about we all try to shut the fcuk up and actually LISTEN to what the women (all women) who experience this kind of treatment FEEL about it? How about we wait for a woman who is talking about her experience of street attention to actually finish talking, before jumping in to defend all males everywhere and to tell her how WRONG she is to feel/think/act the way she does?

Is it unclear to you about why a woman would be upset about this kind of attention? Well how about, 'why did that upset you?' Instead of a barrage of assumptions and stereotypes and insults about how you'd LOVE to get the same 'compliments' about your looks and 'women these days are all...' and 'she's not that hot anyway'?

Defending a guy because you are a guy is not a legitimate response. It's like defending a mass murderer because you are a human being. It's knee-jerk, it's retarded, it's illogical and it adds nothing to the conversation. And yes, this should be a conversation, whether you think it should be or not. Whether you are a hater of the 'feminazi brigade' or not.

Similarly it’s not a legitimate response to jump to the assumption that just because the girl (or guy) ‘FEELS’ uncomfortable that the instigator of the interaction has automatically done something wrong.

When you move to the lower end of these experiences each person (either man or woman) seems to react differently to them, and this can vary from day to day, minute to minute for a given person. Just because someone doesn't want to talk to me when I say hello doesn’t mean I’m harassing them.

Foxtrol

Sufa wrote: »

If people were initiating conversations for legitimate, good-natured reasons such as asking for directions or returning something she's dropped I would agree with you.

So just functional conversations are ok?

How about initiating a conversation because you find the other party attractive and would like to ask them out/get their number?

Foxtrol

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I was approached by someone in a pub last week and I told him that my friend and I were having a private conversation and asked if he could leave. He told me I was a being a stuck up c*nt.

Should I have called the police?

Some people at times do act like a 'stuck up c*nt'. Obviously in whatever situation he shouldnt have said that.

Really seems like a vicious cycle at this point. I've seen several posts using this 'constant harassment' as a free pass for actions that would in any other situation be called rude.

Lemag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzzjfjyO52o

OldNotWIse

P. Breathnach wrote: »

In any pub that I drink in, telling the barman would have been enough to have him thrown out.

And hope he's not waiting outside for you when you leave.

Putin

Gone Drinking wrote: »

Sexy street harassment

I never knew any kind of harassment could be categorised as 'sexy'.

OldNotWIse

Foxtrol wrote: »

Some people at times do act like a 'stuck up c*nt'. Obviously in whatever situation he shouldnt have said that.

Really seems like a vicious cycle at this point. I've seen several posts using this 'constant harassment' as a free pass for actions that would in any other situation be called rude.

What constitutes being a "stuck up c*nt"?

You can call it harrassment or rude, the net result is the same - someone imposing themselves on your space and time knowing that they are not welcome. I don't get why so many people cannot comprehend that no means no.

RobYourBuilder

OldNotWIse wrote: »

And hope he's not waiting outside for you when you leave.

Ok. Reporting it to the coppers is out. Reporting abusive behaviour to management of the venue were the abuse occurred is out too. So how exactly do you suggest we curb such behaviour?

OldNotWIse

Foxtrol wrote: »

So just functional conversations are ok?

How about initiating a conversation because you find the other party attractive and would like to ask them out/get their number?

I don't think people have a problem with someone trying to initiate conversation - it's when it is made clear to that person that they are not welcome and they persist that an issue arises. At least, that's how I would feel. Obviously groping someone (ie assaulting them) or shouting comments at them on the street is not going to get you a date any time soon.

OldNotWIse

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Ok. Reporting it to the coppers is out. Reporting abusive behaviour to management of the venue were the abuse occurred is out too. So how exactly do you suggest we curb such behaviour?

And again the onus of preventing this kind of behaviour lies not with the person who engages in it...

ps I never said reporting to police or staff was out, but I would definitely foresee a risk in píssing off someone like that and getting them thrown out of somewhere, and I think I am justified in that concern.

Foxtrol

OldNotWIse wrote: »

What constitutes being a "stuck up c*nt"?

Acting in a rude manner with a general demeanor that you believe you’re superior to the other person.

You can call it harrassment or rude, the net result is the same - someone imposing themselves on your space and time knowing that they are not welcome. I don't get why so many people cannot comprehend that no means no.

That’s not the point I’m making. I’m saying that due to what people are deeming to be harassment in the past, they appear to be using this as an excuse to be rude to others who approach them now.

People definitely should get that no means no but at the same time people should also be able to say no in a way that isn’t rude.

One eyed Jack

beks101 wrote: »

This thread is ridiculous.

How about we have a conversation about sexual harassment and assault and catcalling and what is quite frequently a violation of human rights out there on our streets WITHOUT it descending into 'all women are', 'all men are' and a Checkpoint Charlie style standoff?

Yes this video is inflaming, no it's not entirely clear what elements are involved in its manipulation to show an 'average' 'not that special' woman getting accosted and yelled at and objectified and sexually judged without provocation while walking down the street and no, that may not be typical of every women everywhere who opens the door and walks out of her house for whatever reason.

But it's a scenario that most women, exemplified by this thread, will be familiar with and therefore it's relevant for discussion. I'd personally like a reasonable discussion. I'm a woman, I've been to NYC and have been the subject of 5 x more male attention than anywhere else in the world; likewise I've walked down Grafton street and been left alone by any/all passersby. I currently live in a particularly 'vibrant' part of London where I've experienced everything from the benign/lighthearted ('Hey miss you dropped something...you dropped my heart!') to the sinister (followed down the road as I walked home from the gym) and all of those incidents allowed me to feel little more than an object and I am, horror of horrors, an 'average woman'.

And no, that doesn't mean that you as a dude are personally responsible. That does not mean that because you possess a penis, you have to foot the blame and aggressively defend other penis possessors who also happen to be idiots, socially inept, and incapable of respecting a woman's boundaries.

But it also doesn't mean that this culture doesn't exist, and it doesn't mean that you get to shout over the women who DO experience this kind of harassment/objectification/unwanted attention and dismiss every single one of their opinions as some kind of feminazi conspiracy.

How about we all try to shut the fcuk up and actually LISTEN to what the women (all women) who experience this kind of treatment FEEL about it? How about we wait for a woman who is talking about her experience of street attention to actually finish talking, before jumping in to defend all males everywhere and to tell her how WRONG she is to feel/think/act the way she does?

Is it unclear to you about why a woman would be upset about this kind of attention? Well how about, 'why did that upset you?' Instead of a barrage of assumptions and stereotypes and insults about how you'd LOVE to get the same 'compliments' about your looks and 'women these days are all...' and 'she's not that hot anyway'?

Defending a guy because you are a guy is not a legitimate response. It's like defending a mass murderer because you are a human being. It's knee-jerk, it's retarded, it's illogical and it adds nothing to the conversation. And yes, this should be a conversation, whether you think it should be or not. Whether you are a hater of the 'feminazi brigade' or not.

beks I've always admired your ability to articulate yourself, far better than I'll ever be able to express myself... but -

If someone expects that I should shut the fcuk up and listen to them talk of their experience of sexual harassment, when we're done discussing how people should be more conscious of how their use of language is perceived by others, I wonder would they equally be as courteous and respectful when someone is talking about their experiences throughout their life of having been referred to as retarded.

Otherwise, you're right, this thread is ridiculous, and pointless, as each of the points you make in your above post could equally apply to people who don't think before they refer to someone's behaviour, or their thinking, or their opinion, as retarded.

Like I said earlier - you get back what you give out, and if anyone is going to be dismissive of anyone who despises the use of that word, then they probably shouldn't be surprised when someone is just as dismissive of them and their opinions on whatever issue bothers them.

OldNotWIse

Foxtrol wrote: »

Acting in a rude manner with a general demeanor that you believe you’re superior to the other person.



That’s not the point I’m making. I’m saying that due to what people are deeming to be harassment in the past, they appear to be using this as an excuse to be rude to others who approach them now.

People definitely should get that no means no but at the same time people should also be able to say no in a way that isn’t rude.

I don't act in a rude manner with a general demeanour that I believe I am superior to others.....but if someone sits at my table and starts asking twenty questions I will politely tell them that it's a private conversation and ask if they could leave us. I don't think that is rude...unless you think that we are all under some kind of obligation to entertain every person who decides to approach us on a night out? There are plenty of people who need to be educated on how not to be rude...might I suggest that you start not with someone who is minding her own business, but with someone who refuses to leave her alone after repeated requests.

Foxtrol

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I don't think people have a problem with someone trying to initiate conversation - it's when it is made clear to that person that they are not welcome and they persist that an issue arises. At least, that's how I would feel. Obviously groping someone (ie assaulting them) or shouting comments at them on the street is not going to get you a date any time soon.

See that's your line, other people's line is coming up to them on the street/bar and saying 'hello' or 'have a nice day'.

This is the problem with the video and some of these discussions in general, just because someone feels uncomfortable by someone else's actions it doesn't mean the person who took the action is automatically in the wrong.