Sexy street harassment

Lollipops23

Recondite49 wrote: »

I'm sorry what are social attacks?

I'm not being obtuse - what exactly do you think happens when a man asks another man for a cigarette?

It's happened to me a few times, so I can tell you.

Me : I don't smoke.
Them : OK (walks off).

Do you just not get out much or something? It's not exactly unheard of for lads to get jumped on by scumbags on nights out. And it normally starts with innocuous conversation.

Ficheall

kylith wrote: »

If she was ignoring 'go away' signals from a guy, or yelling at him to get his kit off then I'd give her a piece of my mind.

That's fine, that's easy - not contentious, so I'll acknowledge that that's fair, and you'll presumably agree that most (sober?) males wouldn't defend that behaviour.

The tricky one is this:

kylith wrote: »

If she said 'hi gorgeous' and it was someone she didn't know I'd probably say something.

Why?
And would this "something" really be a reprimand? Her comment would probably be a confidence boost to the guy, unless he thought she were being sarcastic. Later he'd possibly even regret not having had the guts to respond.

I've two friends over here of whom I'm thinking when I'm considering this. One's overweight and not particularly attractive, and the other guy is good-looking and has more "luck with the ladies" than the rest of my social circle combined. The first guy could make a lass visibly uncomfortable, and I'd feel justified in pulling him away and telling him, "C'mon, time to go", whereas the second guy, with the same opening lines, would probably end up heading back to the girl's place.
Neither want anything more than a shag, and I know that the girl isn't in danger in either instance.
Is it fair that I tell the first guy off for attempting to initiate conversation with a "hello" or even "hello gorgeous", when to suggest same to the second guy would be laughable?

Recondite49

Lollipops23 wrote: »

Do you just not get out much or something? It's not exactly unheard of for lads to get jumped on by scumbags on nights out. And it normally starts with innocuous conversation.

Yes, indeed as a man I'm much more likely to become a victim of violent crime statistically than a woman, I just don't record myself walking around hoping to get attacked because I suspect nothing much will happen and it wouldn't really prove anything if it did.

Just like here...!

Neyite

green_screen wrote: »

Absolutely agree.

I had a man come up to me in work one morning and say 'cheer up, nobody's died.'

My response (which was truthful, and is exactly why I was standing there with tears in my eyes) - 'actually, my grandad died about two hours ago, thanks.'

A lot of awkwardness ensued.


Edit to add: i wouldn't even think to call telling someone to cheer up, harassment. It's an absolute pain in the hole, though.

I was told one day by an arse of a man to "cheer up, I'm sure you're pretty when you smile".

I was miscarrying for the third time and on my way back home from the chemist with painkillers. And I got called an uptight cnut when I ignored him.

Why should we women and girls somehow be obliged to smile on demand to strangers, unless its part of a customer facing paid employment and a valid part of our job description?

TomJerryPoochy

This is how women like to be approached apparently as it seems to work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEuKxDquy7E

Duck Soup

Even as a middle-aged male, I can figure out that constant comments from complete strangers every day will get wearing very quickly.

Is being told '"Smile, love" tantamount to being chainsawed to death by a madman? No.

But after the 200th time in 200 days, it's going to be like nails down a blackboard and the 201st person would be lucky not to meet the tender embrace of a chainsaw themselves.

To claim you can't see this is either (a) profoundly disingenuous or (b) suggests you're not the sharpest.

Zulu

Lollipops23 wrote: »

Do you just not get out much or something? It's not exactly unheard of for lads to get jumped on by scumbags on nights out. And it normally starts with innocuous conversation.

I suspect his point is that 999 times out of 1000, the person wants a smoke and walks off (and I tend to agree with him).

While an "attacker" may start the attack with a polite comment, how often do we get attacked? (very, very rarely)
and will stopping the comments stop the attacks? (of course it won't)

Recondite49

Zulu wrote: »

I suspect his point is that 999 times out of 1000, the person wants a smoke and walks off (and I tend to agree with him).

While an "attacker" may start the attack with a polite comment, how often do we get attacked? (very, very rarely)
and will stopping the comments stop the attacks? (of course it won't)

Thank you Zulu for succeeding where I failed, you put it very clearly.

Zulu

Duck Soup wrote: »

Even as a middle-aged male, I can figure out that constant comments from complete strangers every day will get wearing very quickly.

Sure of course it's annoying, but...

Is it sexual harassment?
Should it be included under the banner of sexual harassment?? and if so,
does it weaken/demean other instances of sexual harassment???

Does it require a "charity" to prevent it?

o1s1n

Zulu wrote: »

Sure of course it's annoying, but...

Is it sexual harassment?
Should it be included under the banner of sexual harassment?? and if so,
does it weaken/demean other instances of sexual harassment???

Does it require a "charity" to prevent it?

There's a variation though, you can't just blanket them all under one heading.

Saying 'smile' to a stranger on the street is probably not harassment to most folks - however it's bloody annoying, rude and people should know better.

Following someone down the street like in the OP's video could definitely be viewed as harassment. The attention is obviously not wanted yet the person persists.

Recondite49

o1s1n wrote: »

There's a variation though, you can't just blanket them all under one heading.

Saying 'smile' to a stranger on the street is probably not harassment to most folks - however it's bloody annoying, rude and people should know better.

Following someone down the street like in the OP's video could definitely be viewed as harassment. The attention is obviously not wanted yet the person persists.

Nice to see someone understands!

the_monkey

Neyite wrote: »

I was told one day by an arse of a man to "cheer up, I'm sure you're pretty when you smile".

I was miscarrying for the third time and on my way back home from the chemist with painkillers. And I got called an uptight cnut when I ignored him.

Why should we women and girls somehow be obliged to smile on demand to strangers, unless its part of a customer facing paid employment and a valid part of our job description?

Not something that just happens to women tho, girls used to always do it to me while I'd be out in my college days - used to piss me off ..

Duck Soup

Zulu wrote: »

Sure of course it's annoying, but...

Is it sexual harassment?
Should it be included under the banner of sexual harassment?? and if so,
does it weaken/demean other instances of sexual harassment???

Does it require a "charity" to prevent it?

Whether it's defined as harrassment or not is a societal decision. Hardly going to be outlawed in South America, but possibly would be in the social democracies of Scandinavia.

Would I outlaw it, make it punishable by fine? No. But I'd abide by a judicial/societal decision that made it illegal (mainly because I've never engaged in random shouting at young females anyway).

Does it require a charity? It's behaviour that would benefit from some form of lobby or pressure group. Why? Because such small, single issue groups move us on a society. It used to be allowable to smoke in the office, have 'girlie' calendars in your workplace, but now such things are either frowned upon, illegal or considered crass.

And that's my point. It's crass, insensitive behaviour.

And if a 20 stone man starts shouting "Smile, love" or "You've got a lovely árse" to a 8 stone woman, she's likely not to be just annoyed, but scared.

Imagine walking along the street with your wife, mother or teen-aged daughter. Would a man in a passing car randomly shouting out at them be acceptable?

Now imagine they're on their own at night, walking home. Still acceptable?

KERSPLAT!

MOD

Recondite49 banned

P. Breathnach

Zulu wrote: »

Sure of course it's annoying, but...

Is it sexual harassment?
Should it be included under the banner of sexual harassment??

If the behaviour is directed towards a woman because she is a woman, and if it can cause distress, then it is sexual harassment.

and if so, does it weaken/demean other instances of sexual harassment???

No. The fact that worse things are possible does not mean that it is not a bad thing.

SVJKarate

Recondite49 wrote: »

I'm sorry what are social attacks?

I'm not being obtuse - what exactly do you think happens when a man asks another man for a cigarette?

It's happened to me a few times, so I can tell you.

Me : I don't smoke.
Them : OK (walks off).

A social attack is violence prompted by (typically) high levels of alcohol / testosterone / adrenaline in a person who does not have a specific pre-meditated purpose in attacking you. It seeks primarily to satisfy an urge for self-validation of the attacker. It is very different from criminal violence (sometimes called non-social-violence) where the attacker has a premeditated intent to mug you / kill you / injure you in order to achieve an outcome (taking your money, disposing of a witness, settling an inter-gang dispute, carrying out a 'hit', etc).

What normally happens? It depends on the situation, but >30% of the time the questioner will close the distance and get you to drop your guard while their accomplice moves out of your field of vision and then assaults you.

In the original scenario I put to you there were two men. Where it's only one person asking the question it would appear the incidents of follow-on attack are less (based on the prevalence of multi-person assailants in UK police reports). If two or more people are asking the question, then you are very likely about to become the victim of harassment or an assault.

Context, as I say, is everything. Calling your partner 'sweetheart' is usually a loving, caring expression. Using it here on boards to address female posters is condescending and quite the opposite of caring. It certainly has not added to the quality of your engagement with them, wouldn't you agree?

For other explanations around street violence, harassment etc can I point you in the direction of the internet to increase your understanding? You can find excellent articles on street violence if you Google Geoff Thompson.

UCDVet

P. Breathnach wrote: »

If the behaviour is directed towards a woman because she is a woman, and if it can cause distress, then it is sexual harassment.

No. The fact that worse things are possible does not mean that it is not a bad thing.

One could easily argue that it is directed at her because she is ATTRACTIVE - and not because she is a woman. In which cause it would not be sexual harassment.

P. Breathnach

UCDVet wrote: »

One could easily argue that it is directed at her because she is ATTRACTIVE - and not because she is a woman. In which cause it would not be sexual harassment.

Only if you are equally likely to treat men you consider attractive in the same way.

SVJKarate

MOD

He's banned, lets leave it at that

TomJerryPoochy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

If the behaviour is directed towards a woman because she is a woman, and if it can cause distress, then it is sexual harassment.

No. The fact that worse things are possible does not mean that it is not a bad thing.

Why is it sexual harassment just because her gender is a motivating factor. If an asexual individual made the comment to a woman because she is a woman then is that sexual harassment?

Duck Soup

UCDVet wrote: »

One could easily argue that it is directed at her because she is ATTRACTIVE - and not because she is a woman. In which cause it would not be sexual harassment.

In which case you'd be on the street shouting "You're pretty when you smile" to handsome young men as well as fetching young women. Which is unlikely.

Lapin

New Yorkers being friendly by saying hello is all.

UCDVet

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Only if you are equally likely to treat men you consider attractive in the same way.

If I ever see a man I find attractive, I would treat him the same way as a woman I find attractive.

I'm not sexist. I just like people with features I find desirable.

SVJKarate

UCDVet wrote: »

One could easily argue that it is directed at her because she is ATTRACTIVE - and not because she is a woman. In which cause it would not be sexual harassment.

Of course that's sexual harassment.

What odd piece of logic made you think that attraction excludes sexual???

New BMW cars don't get harassed as they drive around. They're attractive.

Duck Soup

SVJKarate wrote: »

Of course that's sexual harassment.

What odd piece of logic made you think that attraction excludes sexual???

New BMW cars don't get harassed as they drive around. They're attractive.

And they're goers, too.

P. Breathnach

TomJerryPoochy wrote: »

Why is it sexual harassment just because her gender is a motivating factor. If an asexual individual made the comment to a woman because she is a woman then is that sexual harassment?

Of course it is. Bear in mind that in most cases of such behaviour the male might as well be asexual because the woman is very unlikely to consider whether or not he is sexually active.

SVJKarate

TomJerryPoochy wrote: »

If an asexual individual made the comment to a woman because she is a woman then is that sexual harassment?

Yes.

Harassment is sexual if it is prompted in part or wholly because of the victim's gender. It is not about the gender of the harasser.

Zulu

Duck Soup wrote:

Would I outlaw it, make it punishable by fine? No. But I'd abide by a judicial/societal decision that made it illegal (mainly because I've never engaged in random shouting at young females anyway).
?

talking about the video in question, I would hate to live in a society
where something so subjective was illegal; where unwelcome yet harmless and polite comments, a la the tout saying "good morning beautiful" or the stranger wishing someone "good morning" was condemned.

I grow weary of the victim mentality; of the crippling call by the SJW's to bow to the most sensitive and insecure is our society.

TomJerryPoochy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Of course it is. Bear in mind that in most cases of such behaviour the male might as well be asexual because the woman is very unlikely to consider whether or not he is sexually active.

If the intentions aren't sexual and no comments are made about her sexual body parts then how is it sexual harassment?

"Of course it is" isn't going to persuade me.

Would it be sexual harassment for a man to make a comment to a man just because he is a man?

FunLover18

This all reminds me of this excerpt from Community (can't find a video clip unfortunately)

Jeff: Are you unaware that Shirley finds your advances inappropriate?
Pierce: [laughs] What advances?
Shirley: You have been sexually harassing me since the very first day of class.
Pierce: Sexually harassing? What? That makes no sense to me. Why would I harass somebody who turns me on?
Troy: Saying she turns you on is the harassment, dude.

UCDVet

SVJKarate wrote: »

Of course that's sexual harassment.

What odd piece of logic made you think that attraction excludes sexual???

New BMW cars don't get harassed as they drive around. They're attractive.

Actually - I'd completely disagree with you. Talk to anyone who owns a classic car and guess what - they get the EXACT SAME attention this girl was getting. People wave, honk, say 'Hey man, what's up!?' at lights. People say things like 'Daaaammmn' as they drive by.

P. Breathnach

Zulu wrote: »

talking about the video in question, I would hate to live in a society
where something so subjective was illegal; where unwelcome yet harmless and polite comments, a la the tout saying "good morning beautiful" or the stranger wishing someone "good morning" was condemned.

I grow weary of the victim mentality; of the crippling call by the SJW's to bow to the most sensitive and insecure is our society.

There have been quite a few women posting in this thread telling us how they find such behaviour troubling. And you want to be free to victimise women without their having a right to say that they are victims?

UCDVet

SVJKarate wrote: »

Yes.

Harassment is sexual if it is prompted in part or wholly because of the victim's gender. It is not about the gender of the harasser.

Agreed - but how do we establish what prompted the harassment?

SVJKarate

TomJerryPoochy wrote: »

If the intentions aren't sexual and no comments are made about her sexual body parts then how is it sexual harassment?

Perhaps you could search the internet and read something about the topic?

The intent of the harasser is not the defining parameter.

BTW, very quick re-Reg!

Chunners

TomJerryPoochy wrote: »

Why is it sexual harassment just because her gender is a motivating factor. If an asexual individual made the comment to a woman because she is a woman then is that sexual harassment?

Yes it would still be sexual harassment because the primary motivation is in relation to sex as the act and not sex as the physical gender, take me for example, I'm male to female transsexual, now if I am attracted to females and say to a female "Hey sexy, nice ass" then I am sexually harassing her and if I am attracted to males and say to a male "Hey sexy, nice ass" then I am sexually harassing him. Whats in the harassers pants is irrelevant, whats relevant is if their lewd comments express a desire to engage the harassed into an undesired sexual interaction/conversation

SVJKarate

UCDVet wrote: »

Agreed - but how do we establish what prompted the harassment?

It would be discernible from the context and content of the harassment.

"Hello Beautiful" has overtones of sexual innuendo. That's not a bad thing in itself. I say it to my wife occasionally, but it's sincere and appropriate.

I would be slow to say it to anyone else (other than as a form of compliment if a friend or relative had dressed up for a special occasion) and I'd never use it to greet a stranger.

If the content / context is unwelcome by the recipient, and this is repeated, then it is harassment. There are some excellent articles on the internet about sexual harassment, which are far better than any explanation I can give.

TomJerryPoochy

Chunners wrote: »

Yes it would still be sexual harassment because the primary motivation is in relation to sex as the act and not sex as the physical gender, take me for example, I'm male to female transsexual, now if I am attracted to females and say to a female "Hey sexy, nice ass" then I am sexually harassing her and if I am attracted to males and say to a male "Hey sexy, nice ass" then I am sexually harassing him. Whats in the harassers pants is irrelevant, whats relevant is if their lewd comments express a desire to engage the harassed into an undesired sexual interaction/conversation

So then it's not sexual harassment if an asexual person comments on an individual's nicely shaped tits.

What about making a sexual comment to a wman about your own sexual it? For example if I am talking to a woman and I say" seeing a woman with a sexy ass makes me hard, by the way I'm hungry, think I'll have pizza tonight ."

Duck Soup

Zulu wrote: »

talking about the video in question, I would hate to live in a society
where something so subjective was illegal; where unwelcome yet harmless and polite comments, a la the tout saying "good morning beautiful" or the stranger wishing someone "good morning" was condemned.

I grow weary of the victim mentality; of the crippling call by the SJW's to bow to the most sensitive and insecure is our society.

Like I said, I wouldn't make it illegal, but I'd have no problem with media campaigns against such behaviour. Much of the social behaviour from the 50s to the 70s - at times both mildly or overtly sexist/racist - is now not illegal, but is simply not acceptable. You can (non-ironically) say "A woman's place is in the kitchen" and it's not illegal, but it does let everyone else in the room know that you're a dick.

And so with this kind of behaviour.

But I come back to it. Annoying is the very least it is. Call it a race to victimhood if you like, but you don't get to choose whether a woman is scared and intimidated by such behaviour.

As for the 'rights/freedoms' argument, your right to swing your fists ends where my face begins.

UCDVet

Chunners wrote: »

Yes it would still be sexual harassment because the primary motivation is in relation to sex as the act and not sex as the physical gender, take me for example, I'm male to female transsexual, now if I am attracted to females and say to a female "Hey sexy, nice ass" then I am sexually harassing her and if I am attracted to males and say to a male "Hey sexy, nice ass" then I am sexually harassing him. Whats in the harassers pants is irrelevant, whats relevant is if their lewd comments express a desire to engage the harassed into an undesired sexual interaction/conversation

Honest question - how does one establish if their comments are undesired?
'Excuse me, Sir, if I were to complement your physical attributes, would you consider that to be an undesired sexual interaction?'

Presumably, anyone who would be offended by 'Nice ass' would also be offended by asking if it would be okay to compliment them in a sexual fashion.

BBDBB

of course.........they all have lovely bottoms

SVJKarate

UCDVet wrote: »

Actually - I'd completely disagree with you. Talk to anyone who owns a classic car and guess what - they get the EXACT SAME attention this girl was getting. People wave, honk, say 'Hey man, what's up!?' at lights. People say things like 'Daaaammmn' as they drive by.

((Sigh)) Once more with feeling: "Context is everything"

UCDVet

SVJKarate wrote: »

It would be discernible from the context and content of the harassment.

"Hello Beautiful" has overtones of sexual innuendo. That's not a bad thing in itself. I say it to my wife occasionally, but it's sincere and appropriate.

I would be slow to say it to anyone else (other than as a form of compliment if a friend or relative had dressed up for a special occasion) and I'd never use it to greet a stranger.

If the content / context is unwelcome by the recipient, and this is repeated, then it is harassment. There are some excellent articles on the internet about sexual harassment, which are far better than any explanation I can give.

No disagreement from me (on the bold). If it is sexual in nature, established that it is undesired *and* it continues - that's sexual harassment. But this video is mostly, 'Hey, how's it going?'

That's not inherently sexual
It's not established that it is undesired
And it didn't continue

Maybe I came into the thread late and started reading out of context, if I'm confused, my apologizes.

Chunners

TomJerryPoochy wrote: »

So then it's not sexual harassment if an asexual person comments on an individual's nicely shaped tits.

Well if you want to get clinical (and pedantic) an asexual person would have no reason to say it in the first place, if you are going to say "but what if" then I can argue that in that case "there is no 'if' "

UCDVet

SVJKarate wrote: »

((Sigh)) Once more with feeling: "Context is everything"

Hey man - just because I'm driving a classic car doesn't mean I want people to come to me and ask what I've got under my hood.

TomJerryPoochy

I would like to ask your permission to compliment you in a sexual manner.

I'm definitely going to say that next time a chat a woman up.

If she declines I'll ask her permission to disparage her in a sexual manner.

Zulu

P. Breathnach wrote: »

. And you want to be free to victimise women without their having a right to say that they are victims?

That's what you took from my post?

I guess that just proves my point. Victims everywhere. Life must be horrible for you.

LittleFox

As others have already pointed out the hi while seemingly harmless can lead to other things. I have had the hi, the tap to pull out my headphones. I have thereby engaged with the person only to have lads then go on to tell my lips are made for blow jobs or my tits are massive. I've had guys grope them in broad daylight. If I'm offended by this I'm a stuck up bitch, a fat cow a whore who they wouldn't want anyway. So apologies if random people engaging me in conversation when I obviously don't want to has me on edge

Chunners

UCDVet wrote: »

Honest question - how does one establish if their comments are undesired?
'Excuse me, Sir, if I were to complement your physical attributes, would you consider that to be an undesired sexual interaction?'

Presumably, anyone who would be offended by 'Nice ass' would also be offended by asking if it would be okay to compliment them in a sexual fashion.

So you want a good gauge? ok here's one, if it is not appropriate to say it to a woman in your work place without risking getting a reprimand then don't say it to a random woman you pass on the street.

UCDVet

LittleFox wrote: »

As others have already pointed out the hi while seemingly harmless can lead to other things. I have had the hi, the tap to pull out my headphones. I have thereby engaged with the person only to have lads then go on to tell my lips are made for blow jobs or my tits are massive. I've had guys grope them in broad daylight. If I'm offended by this I'm a stuck up bitch, a fat cow a whore who they wouldn't want anyway. So apologies if random people engaging me in conversation when I obviously don't want to has me on edge

I don't think anyone would defend someone grouping you in broad daylight. I think EVERYONE should be offended by it. And I totally get that, in many cases, the person that would group you might begin by saying 'Hey, how's it going'. And I don't think anyone can fault you for not wanting to chat with people. Heck, I'm ugly and nobody sexually harasses me, and I STILL don't want to chat with people.

But, it's also not fair to say that EVERYONE who says, 'Hey, how's it going' is a sexual deviant who was *probably* about to grope you.

Most of the video shows people saying 'Hello'. I don't feel it's fair to say those are examples of sexual harassment.

TomJerryPoochy

Chunners wrote: »

So you want a good gauge? ok here's one, if it is not appropriate to say it to a woman in your work place without risking getting a reprimand then don't say it to a random woman you pass on the street.

Why? We are sexual beings, sexual interaction is natural.