BMW timing chain problem

YbFocus

ION08 wrote: »

God, whatever happened to premium German car's that are Reliable!

... Best ok buying a K11 micra or older Corrolla at this rate!

Agreed that the 20d's are very bad, the bigger 6 cylinders etc are a million times better than that one model everyone loves to pick on.
It shouldn't happen to any of them i know but the bigger engines are the way to go!

unkel

ION08 wrote: »

God, whatever happened to premium German car's that are Reliable!

Just buy a petrol. Very reliable

A biggest problem with modern diesel cars is the owner. Who does want the nice car (for not that much money), fuel savings and the low tax, but who doesn't appreciate it needs maintenance and care and has expensive bits that can go wrong

Stallingrad

What we need is a straight 6, 1.4 Turbo from BMW. Turbine smooth with low Co2. Is that too much to ask?

PGE1970

YbFocus wrote: »

But one with the problem already sorted, new crank and chain etc. Off you go
An A4 doesn't nearly cut it against a 5 series

Fair point but how many will have had this work carried out? This is crazy stuff; anyone who buys an e90 (lower engined i.e. most available second hand) 3 series or a current 5 series pre 2013(?) are facing this potential ticking financial timebomb?:mad:

Also agree re A4; I've been in one and much prefer the BMW. However, I might get a better night's sleep with an A4.

Any other alternatives? I've had a Golf GTI before but getting older now. Not mad on VW Passat. Skoda Superb or Merc C or E class?

veetwin

YbFocus wrote: »

Agreed that the 20d's are very bad, the bigger 6 cylinders etc are a million times better than that one model everyone loves to pick on.
It shouldn't happen to any of them i know but the bigger engines are the way to go!

Tell that to my buddy who has had to get rid of an x5 he owned from new because of the numerous amount of problems he had with it including a blown turbo. Another mates 530d is equally unreliable.. Yes the bigger engines are nicer but anecdotally at least are no more reliable.

bazz26

The problem with the larger diesel engines is that they are just bigger versions based on the same basic engine family so end up suffering from the same design flaws, i.e. same crappy type sprocket and chain located at the rear of the engine.

YbFocus

PGE1970 wrote: »

Fair point but how many will have had this work carried out? This is crazy stuff; anyone who buys an e90 (lower engined i.e. most available second hand) 3 series or a current 5 series pre 2013(?) are facing this potential ticking financial timebomb?:mad:

Also agree re A4; I've been in one and much prefer the BMW. However, I might get a better night's sleep with an A4.

Any other alternatives? I've had a Golf GTI before but getting older now. Not mad on VW Passat. Skoda Superb or Merc C or E class?

Some of the vw engines are equally as much of a time bomb in fairness. Although prices for stuff is probably a good bit cheaper.
The bxe engined vw's come to mind, like the 520's they don't all do it but those that do completely destroy themselves!

YbFocus

veetwin wrote: »

Tell that to my buddy who has had to get rid of an x5 he owned from new because of the numerous amount of problems he had with it including a blown turbo. Another mates 530d is equally unreliable.. Yes the bigger engines are nicer but anecdotally at least are no more reliable.

Most of the 25's and 30's behave themselves once looked after.
My own 530 is at 198k miles, original turbo, clutch etc etc.

listermint

veetwin wrote: »

Tell that to my buddy who has had to get rid of an x5 he owned from new because of the numerous amount of problems he had with it including a blown turbo. Another mates 530d is equally unreliable.. Yes the bigger engines are nicer but anecdotally at least are no more reliable.

These types of posts are meaningless when it comes to Irish Owners adherence to maintenance, especially the preventative scheduled kind.

.....oh theres a warning on my dash, im only 10,000 over the scheduled service interval............

bazz26

To be fair BMW don't or at least didn't at one time list changing the turbo breather filter, on their service schedule to help preventing oil starvation to the turbo. They also didn't list replacing the swirl flaps with blanks in the manifold. They also like other manufacturers take pride in having long service intervals as it promotes the perception of lower running costs.

While an enthusiast will read up on these things and know what they are getting into, Average Joe out there will not have a clue. And to be fair you couldn't or shouldn't expect your Average Joe to have to know things outside of what is recommended.

YbFocus

bazz26 wrote: »

To be fair BMW don't or at least didn't at one time list changing the turbo breather filter, on their service schedule to help preventing oil starvation to the turbo. They also didn't list replacing the swirl flaps with blanks in the manifold. They also like other manufacturers take pride in having long service intervals as it promotes the perception of lower running costs.

While an enthusiast will read up on these things and know what they are getting into, Average Joe out there will not have a clue. And to be fair you couldn't or shouldn't expect your Average Joe to have to know things outside of what is recommended.

Totally agree, the breather filter was a huge mistake and definitely cosy huge amounts of turbo's to fail.
I think the swirl flaps were supposed to be a lifetime item, don't think they foresaw them being a problem.

They without doubt could be better cars than they are, but if minded they can be faultless enough.

MetzgerMeister

YbFocus wrote: »

They without doubt could be better cars than they are, but if minded they can be faultless enough.

I agree. Since I replaced the turbos, I've had no other problems at all.

unkel

I read somewhere that BMWs are harder driven than any other mainstream car. Can't find it now, but that no doubt impacts on general reliability.

bazz26

I wonder are BMW becoming the Alfa Romeo of the 21st century where only the die hard fans can live with them?

listermint

bazz26 wrote: »

I wonder are BMW becoming the Alfa Romeo of the 21st century where only the die hard fans can live with them?

Alfa diesels are better

unkel

bazz26 wrote: »

I wonder are BMW becoming the Alfa Romeo of the 21st century where only the die hard fans can live with them?

That's a bit dramatic

There's one engine in BMW's recent history that has given major trouble and typically only after a hard and long life

And it's not even a proper BMW engine because it only has 4 cylinders and is a diesel

veetwin

listermint wrote: »

These types of posts are meaningless when it comes to Irish Owners adherence to maintenance, especially the preventative scheduled kind.

.....oh theres a warning on my dash, im only 10,000 over the scheduled service interval............

I did say it was anecdotal but it does not take away from the fact that within 100 metres of my house there is or was 2 bmws with 3 litre engines both bought in 2008 and with less than 100k km. Both have given major problems including a blown turbo on one. Both were maintained as per the obd.

While I accept this is a meaningless to you, it is my direct experience.

ION08

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Better off buy Ford. Best German car you can get for the money.

Not sure if serious or sarcastic?

Seweryn

ION08 wrote: »

Not sure if serious or sarcastic?

An average Ford is more reliable than other German competitiors these days. So, he is not far from being serious.

TBi

veetwin wrote: »

Both were maintained as per the obd..

Unfortunately the obd service intervals are too long. The oil that comes out (if there is any left) is like tar.

For instance my 5 series has a m54 engine which originally had a 6k mile interval service. But my car has a 12k mile service interval. Same engine, main difference is possibly newer oils.

Old diesel

unkel wrote: »

That's a bit dramatic

There's one engine in BMW's recent history that has given major trouble and typically only after a hard and long life

And it's not even a proper BMW engine because it only has 4 cylinders and is a diesel

Its definitely a massive issue - but what percentage of 20ds with the N47 will actually run into difficulty.

All of them???, 50 percent, 10 percent, 5 percent, less then 5 percent,????

And is it an avoid N47 20ds like the plague type issue (in terms of likelihood of failure) like the old Mazda 6 2.0 diesel issues????

listermint

TBi wrote: »

Unfortunately the obd service intervals are too long. The oil that comes out (if there is any left) is like tar.

For instance my 5 series has a m54 engine which originally had a 6k mile interval service. But my car has a 12k mile service interval. Same engine, main difference is possibly newer oils.

This, in a nut shell.



Tbh BMW are dare i say it pox bottles. countless issues with varying models since the late 90s and the only country that gets treated with a semblance of out of warranty work or respect is the USA. Litigation central and a massive market for them. Even work that gets done over there under their recall schemes his hidden as much as possible in the Irish Market and sometimes the UK.

robtri

bazz26 wrote: »

I wonder are BMW becoming the Alfa Romeo of the 21st century where only the die hard fans can live with them?

interesting....
just googling around...
since 1985 in the US (I couldnt find stats for Europe) BMW North America has sold 5.7 million cars..... the recall number stands at 5.1 million......

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2014/03/26/automakers-with-the-lowest-and-highest-recall-rates/

Blazer

robtri wrote: »

interesting....
just googling around...
since 1985 in the US (I couldnt find stats for Europe) BMW North America has sold 5.7 million cars..... the recall number stands at 5.1 million......

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2014/03/26/automakers-with-the-lowest-and-highest-recall-rates/

its pretty bloody high...higher than I've ever imagined but you left this piece out.

Among the 15 major automakers surveyed, BMW was found to react to safety related defects the most quickly, with 87 percent of its 232 recall campaigns initiated since 1985 taking place within a model’s first three years.

Then you see Volkswagon

Volkswagen of America: 10.2 million recalled/9.7 million sold; 1.06 recall rate...

I'd be very interested to see the year by year breakdown. I suspect a lot of recalls are over electronic safety aids such as airbags etc .

unkel

Recall number is not very meaningful. Could be something minor. There was only 1 recall on the E60 (that I have). Millions of them were sold, but a handful of cars had an electrical fire near the battery (in the boot) iirc. Would have been cheaper for BMW to not recall the cars and just settle for every accident

keano25

Any word from the OP? What's the latest?

PGE1970

Having read all of the above and the many insightful and informative comments, can I ask the following for reply:

- If you currently owned a N47 engine BMW diesel, would you now be inclined to sell it on?

- If you were in the market, would you now avoid the a N47 car based on the risk of what might go wrong and the ancilliary costs involved or do the car's other benefits outweigh this risk?

I'd be very interested for comments.

Comhrá

PGE1970 wrote: »

- If you currently owned a N47 engine BMW diesel, would you now be inclined to sell it on?

If you were in the market, would you now avoid the a N47 car based on the risk of what might go wrong and the ancilliary costs involved or do the car's other benefits outweigh this risk?

I'd be very interested for comments

Yes and yes. I like the 520i but there are other nice cars available without courting such potential grief by buying an N47 Beemer, even with a warranty.

I wouldn't need this sort of grief.

tom_tarbucket

tippman1 wrote: »

Yes and yes. I like the 520i but there are other nice cars available without courting such potential grief by buying an N47 Beemer, even with a warranty.

I wouldn't need this sort of grief.

pardon my ignorance but what does the 520i have to do with the N 47 engine ?

I presume you meant to say 520 D

Comhrá

pardon my ignorance but what does the 520i have to do with the N 47 engine ?

Oops! sorry - not thinking while typing

unkel

Is every single new(ish) BMW buyer doing 15k+ miles these days? If not, why is nobody buying petrol engined ones any more? The newer direct injection ones are also cheap to tax and fuel (but obviously not as good as the diesels), but are far more refined and don't have all sorts of expensive things likely to go wrong on them

Oafley Jones

Looking at estates at the moment and the 5 series would have been nearly top of the list of it weren't for the engine. As I said before, I won't touch them now. Pity as I really like them.

tom_tarbucket

unkel wrote: »

Is every single new(ish) BMW buyer doing 15k+ miles these days? If not, why is nobody buying petrol engined ones any more? The newer direct injection ones are also cheap to tax and fuel (but obviously not as good as the diesels), but are far more refined and don't have all sorts of expensive things likely to go wrong on them

doubt they are doing half that mileage.
A lot of Irish people are just obsessed with tax and getting tax 200 euro cheaper and fuel a few cent cheaper. don't look at bigger picture. penny wise, pound foolish etc

MetzgerMeister

unkel wrote: »

Is every single new(ish) BMW buyer doing 15k+ miles these days? If not, why is nobody buying petrol engined ones any more? The newer direct injection ones are also cheap to tax and fuel (but obviously not as good as the diesels), but are far more refined and don't have all sorts of expensive things likely to go wrong on them

MuppetCheck

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

Weren't you considering a diesel for similar mileage lately?

Bigcheeze

unkel wrote: »

Is every single new(ish) BMW buyer doing 15k+ miles these days? If not, why is nobody buying petrol engined ones any more? The newer direct injection ones are also cheap to tax and fuel (but obviously not as good as the diesels), but are far more refined and don't have all sorts of expensive things likely to go wrong on them

I think the 520i is about 5k more expensive than the 520d, but has same 0-60 time, same bhp, less torque so it's not just about tax.

MuppetCheck

I bet a lot are being bought on PCP deals too. They wouldn't look as attractive if you stuck in the petrol residuals in this country.

tom_tarbucket

Bigcheeze wrote: »

I think the 520i is about 5k more expensive than the 520d, but has same 0-60 time, same bhp, less torque so it's not just about tax.

jaysus, I always thought diesels were dearer to buy due to better mpg, fuel consumption, lower tax, longer life etc

Seweryn

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

jaysus, I always thought diesels were dearer to buy due to better mpg, fuel consumption, lower tax, longer life etc

They are dearer when they are come out of the factory, i.e. ex local taxes, carbon taxes, registration taxes, etc.
Diesel engines are heavier, more complicated and more expensive to manufacture than petrol engines, so yes, Diesel engined cars are more expensive, however after you apply VAT, VRT, etc. the things change then.

Bigcheeze

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

jaysus, I always thought diesels were dearer to buy due to better mpg, fuel consumption, lower tax, longer life etc

historically they were, but due to Co2 based VRT, they became cheaper than petrols for a few years. Now that petrols have narrowed the co2 gap, entry level petrols are sometimes cheaper.

rocky

unkel wrote: »

Is every single new(ish) BMW buyer doing 15k+ miles these days? If not, why is nobody buying petrol engined ones any more? The newer direct injection ones are also cheap to tax and fuel (but obviously not as good as the diesels), but are far more refined and don't have all sorts of expensive things likely to go wrong on them

Have they fixed the HPFP, wastegates, injectors and coilpack issues? Probably HPFP failures are more often found in the States with their lower quality petrol, but the rest?

It'll be difficult to find a reliable replacement for the 530.

veetwin

Part of the issue is lack of availability. I just did a search on Carzone for post 2011 5 series, E class or A6. There is one 2014 petrol A6 and that's your choice. I don't know if you could even order a 5 series or e class in petrol.

robtri

Seweryn wrote: »

They are dearer when they are come out of the factory, i.e. ex local taxes, carbon taxes, registration taxes, etc.
Diesel engines are heavier, more complicated and more expensive to manufacture than petrol engines, so yes, Diesel engined cars are more expensive, however after you apply VAT, VRT, etc. the things change then.

yep according to carzone new car pricing

BMW 520D - Luxury - 4 dr €50,640

BMW 5201 - Luxury - 4 dr €55,610

the diesel is basically 5k cheaper

tom_tarbucket

robtri wrote: »

yep according to carzone new car pricing

BMW 520D - Luxury - 4 dr €50,640

BMW 5201 - Luxury - 4 dr €55,610

the diesel is basically 5k cheaper

very interesting, as I said earlier , was sure it was almost always the other way around

robtri

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

very interesting, as I said earlier , was sure it was almost always the other way around

i was pretty amazed as well at the price difference....

keano25

The price of a chain replacment. Lol.

Leonard Hofstadter

BMW prices in Ireland are closely aligned with those in the UK (before VRT, of course). The 520i is also more expensive than the 520d in the UK, for some daft reason (no VRT excuse over there). In Germany, however, the 520i is €1,700 cheaper than the 520d, not a lot actually. As with Ireland and the UK, the low powered 518d is the cheapest way to get into a 5 series over there, too.

On the other hand, the 320i is €2,250 cheaper than a 320d in Germany, even though the 320d still uses the N47 engine, while the 520d has moved to the B47 (which also has the timing chain in the wrong place incidentally, but I will give BMW the benefit of the doubt with the B47 for the moment), which also has more power than the 520i. Makes no sense that you have to pay more on a 3 series to get the diesel equivalent, which is an older, more unreliable (potentially - let's wait and see what problems the B47 gives in a few years time) and less powerful engine.

Wheelnut

I seem to recall (can't find it just now) that my engine is type N47N, and I don't know what the second "N" stands for.

whiterebel

Wheelnut wrote: »

I seem to recall (can't find it just now) that my engine is type N47N, and I don't know what the second "N" stands for.

Nackered?

galwaytt

Oafley Jones wrote: »

Looking at estates at the moment and the 5 series would have been nearly top of the list of it weren't for the engine. As I said before, I won't touch them now. Pity as I really like them.

...you need a glass half-full approach you do: find the car, haggle like mad, and then if you can get a 5k discount for a future chain job, buy it. Cost covered on Day 1 :pac: