BMW timing chain problem

Wheelnut

whiterebel wrote: »

Nackered?

galwaytt wrote: »

...you need a glass half-full approach...

I've had two 320d cars with the N47 engine. My first one was a 2009 car and I have now passed it on to my son-in-law. I am presently driving a 2013 car. Both are going well with no problem so far. However I have taken the precaution of changing the oil every 10k miles max because I know there is a problem out there. I have also been sure to use the correct oil specification, ACEA C3, LL-04.

I know several people who are also running the N47 engine and no-one who is known personally to me has had an engine failure. How many people on here know first-hand of an engine failure? How many people on here know first-hand of more than one engine failure? No doubt there will be a few who can answer "yes" to the first question and maybe the second, but the numbers will be very small, too small to generalise in the way this thread is going.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Foxhole Norman

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Back in the day yes but not anymore, 520i's are 4 Pots since the LCI E60 I think.

Leonard Hofstadter

Foxhole Norman wrote: »

Back in the day yes but not anymore, 520i's are 4 Pots since the LCI E60 I think.

520i was a six cylinder when the E60 was introduced originally. Then it became a 523i in 2005. Continental Europe got a 520i in 2007 when the LCI model came out, but that was only four cylinders. I long for the days when even the humdrum 520i got the correct number of cylinders - four bangers suck besides a silky smooth straight six.

Old diesel

Wheelnut wrote: »

I've had two 320d cars with the N47 engine. My first one was a 2009 car and I have now passed it on to my son-in-law. I am presently driving a 2013 car. Both are going well with no problem so far. However I have taken the precaution of changing the oil every 10k miles max because I know there is a problem out there. I have also been sure to use the correct oil specification, ACEA C3, LL-04.

I know several people who are also running the N47 engine and no-one who is known personally to me has had an engine failure. How many people on here know first-hand of an engine failure? How many people on here know first-hand of more than one engine failure? No doubt there will be a few who can answer "yes" to the first question and maybe the second, but the numbers will be very small, too small to generalise in the way this thread is going.

Fair point - hence why I asked earlier in the thread what is the likelihood of failure - or the percentage of 20ds with N47s that have had the issue.

The obvious problem is that with a high cost of repair - its definitely an issue of concern.

But is it an avoid them like the plague issue??? - in reality

Wheelnut

Old diesel wrote: »

... - hence why I asked earlier in the thread what is the likelihood of failure - or the percentage of 20ds with N47s that have had the issue.

I have seen that question asked on other forums (fora?) and I have asked it myself, but it has never been answered.

tom_tarbucket

Wheelnut wrote: »

I have seen that question asked on other forums (fora?) and I have asked it myself, but it has never been answered.

mine had to be feckin replaced anyways so that's 2 of us.

Leonard Hofstadter

It's a fair point actually, I don't know the exact percentages, no more than anyone else does I suspect.

What we do know is that the problem is known and acknowledged by BMW (at least for anything before March 2011) as existing, and there are plenty of examples of people even with engines built after that date that are suffering. Some engines can top 100k miles without a problem, others fail at as low as 30k miles.

Of course, everything does get exaggerated on the internet, but it's a very, very serious problem. Even if the failure rate was 1%, that's 1% too many. It is a manufacturing fault (the chain itself is actually fine - it's the crankshaft that causes the chain to stretch and eventually fail) and I think the general consensus is that even though following the car's on board computer for servicing undoubtedly makes the problem more likely to occur, more sensible oil changes (e.g. every 12k miles or more often) only delay the problem rather than prevent it.

That's kind of the scary thing with the timing chain problem, at least on the older BMW diesel engines (which also suffered from design flaws and could also suffer from a catastrophic problem), there are preventative measures that are only a few hundred quid to do, and prevent anything catastrophic from happening. For example, getting the swirl flaps removed is not expensive, nor is changing the oil filter so as to ensure the turbo doesn't fail.

It's also incredibly shoddy engineering on BMW's part to put the damn thing at the rear of the engine - it would be less than half the price to replace it if it was installed at the front of the engine (like every other manufacturer does, including BMW until this engine came out incidentally).

These engines should be guaranteed for at least 10 years or 100,000 miles, like what Toyota did with the early VVTis, which were notorious for oil burning (and to properly fix the problem, it involved replacing the pistons and cylinders, which was a lot of money). Toyota replaced the 'short block' of the engine on anything affected if the mileage was below 100k, and considering how much more expensive a BMW is, it's the very least BMW should do.

In this day and age, 100,000 miles is not a lot to expect out of a car - any car that's been properly and promptly serviced should be lasting at least 200,000 miles without a major fault. My parents for example do over 25k miles per annum, if they bought a BMW 100k miles means the car would only last four years before getting the timing chain problem - not good enough at all.

unkel

captainspeed wrote: »

like what Toyota did with the early VVTis, which were notorious for oil burning (and to properly fix the problem, it involved replacing the pistons and cylinders, which was a lot of money). Toyota replaced the 'short block' of the engine on anything affected if the mileage was below 100k

Plenty of anecdotal evidence of people bringing their Toyota to the dealer for a service only to find that their "engine looks very clean" when they came to pick it up a few days later

BMW do seem to pick up the bill too for cars with the N47 problem with full service history and under 100k in most cases

boosabum

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

mine had to be feckin replaced anyways so that's 2 of us.

me too....so three

Zubeneschamali

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

mine had to be feckin replaced anyways so that's 2 of us.

I only know one person in Real Life with a 520d. They suffered a complete failure, and after some internet searches and solicitors letters, BMW fixed it.

boosabum

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

mine had to be feckin replaced anyways so that's 2 of us.

me too....so three @ 40K miles

bazz26

unkel wrote: »

Plenty of anecdotal evidence of people bringing their Toyota to the dealer for a service only to find that their "engine looks very clean" when they came to pick it up a few days later

BMW do seem to pick up the bill too for cars with the N47 problem with full service history and under 100k in most cases

I'm a little cynical about these stories to be honest, I've never heard of someone dropping their car in for a routine service and then told to come back in a few days to pick it up. If that was the case then you would want to be a right dumb ass not to ask why.

Anyway back on topic. The chain was put in the rear of the engine which is up against the cabin bulkhead because it was originally designed to last the lifetime of the engine meaning it was never meant to be replaced which transpires is not the case.

TBi

bazz26 wrote: »

I'm a little cynical about these stories to be honest, I've never heard of someone dropping their car in for a routine service and then told to come back in a few days to pick it up. If that was the case then you would want to be a right dumb ass not to ask why.

Happened to my co-worker with a 520D. Went in for a service under warranty and told they'd be keeping it in to change the chain and cog.

tom_tarbucket

Thats 4 people so far

NewApproach

My dad's got replaced under warranty.

Incidentally, if he were to sell it now, how much of a premium would the fact it has been done command pricewise?

keith_d99

2 people ... 1 complete failure .. solicitor letters etc. BMW covered parts not labour

2nd person - Rattle - covered under warranty

bazz26

TBi wrote: »

Happened to my co-worker with a 520D. Went in for a service under warranty and told they'd be keeping it in to change the chain and cog.

I was actually referring to the changing of the top block by Toyota on their VVTi engines. The stories out there suggests it was done on the qt over a number of days without the owner being any wiser is hard to believe.

Wheelnut

keith_d99 wrote: »

2 people ... 1 complete failure .. solicitor letters etc. BMW covered parts not labour

2nd person - Rattle - covered under warranty

That seems to be six so far, keep them coming.

Does anybody know how many of the N47 engines were fitted to cars sold in Ireland over the last seven years?

(Edit: Sorry, it seems to be seven, I missed New Approach)

tom_tarbucket

feck me, 7 already on a thread that's probably only read by a tiny percentage of the population

Seweryn

I know of one 520d where the chain failed and made a Totalschaden of the engine.

bazz26

Poll carried out on bmw-driver.net last year and there is a fair number of hitters:

http://www.bmw-driver.net/forum/showthread.php?t=47070&page=4

heroics

My wife is looking at a 2011 116D does this engine have the same issue? It was registered in November 2011 if that makes a difference.

Thanks

Harcrid

Work colleague also had one done under warranty a few years ago.

bazz26

Potentially yes, it is still the 2.0 litre N47 engine.

ION08

Would replacing the timing chain on an N47 engine address the issue? Similar to removing swirl flaps on M47?

tom_tarbucket

8 people now

YbFocus

ION08 wrote: »

Would replacing the timing chain on an N47 engine address the issue? Similar to removing swirl flaps on M47?

No because the harm is done by the crank, replacing the chain will put it off but it will just start wearing the new one.

whiterebel

bazz26 wrote: »

I was actually referring to the changing of the top block by Toyota on their VVTi engines. The stories out there suggests it was done on the qt over a number of days without the owner being any wiser is hard to believe.

The way I heard it was that the owners were advised that Toyota were taking a sample of engines from Irish Cars, to test them thoroughly, etc, etc. Would you like a new engine instead, gratis??? You'd hardly say no.......

dekbhoy

Enough to put me right off buying a BMW with an N47 engine. Shocking from a such a brand that prides itself on reliabilty and quality. i am on the market and have viewed a fair few beautiful BMW cars but i think i will be more careful in choice considering the evidence here. Thank you boards!!!!!!!!

MuppetCheck

Guy I know had it on an e60 at 80k miles, there was some contribution but still wound up paying a couple of k.

tom_tarbucket

9

Wheelnut

bazz26 wrote: »

Poll carried out on bmw-driver.net last year and there is a fair number of hitters:

http://www.bmw-driver.net/forum/showthread.php?t=47070&page=4

That pole seems to indicate a 30% failure rate.

ValdelisBMW seems to be their resident expert and works at repairing them, but his English is a little unusual. At post 35 I think he is saying that they don't break without warning, they make noise first and can be fixed:

Valdelis wrote:

they dont broke straight without any signs of wear ,so its enough time to sort this even after it will start to make bad sound

Truckermal

Well in that case they are better than the PD 2.0 lump as they just went bang....:P

unkel

Wheelnut wrote: »

That pole seems to indicate a 30% failure rate.

Polls tend to attract people searching online for problems they've had. Many of the people with the problem would have seen the poll. Whereas I suspect the overwhelming majority of owners without problems, would have never seen that poll, never mind vote in it.

That said, I'd love to see figures too. As in how many of the N47 engined cars have failed to date, how many were produced. Nobody has these figures of course, but I'm sure we'd all settle for the figures from BMW: how many actually were registered at BMW dealers with the problem (this of course gives a percentage lower than the actual percentage of failed engines, as some people would go straight to an indy garage without ever telling BMW)

I'm gonna put my finger in the wind now and say it would be about 3-5% (worldwide)

Leonard Hofstadter

YbFocus wrote: »

No because the harm is done by the crank, replacing the chain will put it off but it will just start wearing the new one.

+1. If you just replace the timing chain, the problem is still there and the new one will also fail eventually. Even though it's known as the timing chain problem, it's not actually the timing chain that is the fault - it's the crankshaft and other bits and pieces connected to the chain that were not properly manufactured and cause the chain to stretch and eventually fail.

Mind you, even replacing the crankshaft and other bits and bobs is no guarantee that the problem will be fixed, since there are plenty of reports of cars built after March 2011 suffering from the problem, even though it was supposedly 'fixed' by then. I think the safest thing to say about that is cars built after March 2011 are less likely than older models to suffer from the problem.

TBi

Wheelnut wrote: »

At post 35 I think he is saying that they don't break without warning, they make noise first and can be fixed:

The chain will rattle on startup as it gets worse. You'll hear it if you know what to listen to. There are videos on youtube where you can hear the noise. My Co-Workers one was rattling like that but he thought it was normal.

A (now closed) BMW garage in Cork told the original owner of my Mini that the rattle from the engine was normal and they all do it. He was right that they all do it in time but it's definitely not normal.

Wheelnut

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

9

So, after all that fuss, well-informed opinion and expert advice, it seems that only nine people have direct first-hand experience of the problem.

:rolleyes:

TBi

Wheelnut wrote: »

So, after all that fuss, well-informed opinion and expert advice, it seems that only nine people have direct first-hand experience of the problem.

:rolleyes:

Now try and find anybody with a chain problem on an older 3.5l v8 petrol from an e38 era car. If you can find one I'll be impressed.

Old diesel

Wheelnut wrote: »

So, after all that fuss, well-informed opinion and expert advice, it seems that only nine people have direct first-hand experience of the problem.

:rolleyes:

I think the point is that these failures SHOULDN'T have being happening in the first place.

And a wider question for BMW is if pre 07 2.0 diesels worked fine timing chain wise - WHY change the design for something that introduces a problem that wasn't there - for no apparent necessary reason - I mean it doesn't sound like something they had to do for emissions rules - like adding a DPF.

The idea should be - if you change the design from something that works well - it should be BETTER your making it - not introducing problems that weren't there before.

NewApproach

Wheelnut wrote: »

So, after all that fuss, well-informed opinion and expert advice, it seems that only nine people have direct first-hand experience of the problem.

:rolleyes:

Do you think this thread is a relevant sample?

:rolleyes:

mossym

NewApproach wrote: »

Do you think this thread is a relevant sample?

:rolleyes:

why bother with the count at all then. :rolleyes:

it's not a proper sample, but that will work both ways. those without an issure aren't rushing to the internet to tell everyone their car is fine. any internet discussion is always heavily weighted towards those with an issue.

the cynic in my says if the numbers had been higher it would have been accepted as a relevant sample.

i'd be thinking Unkel is probably in the right range. that's still way too many. I don't sweat mine too much, it's a 2011 automatic f10, so slightly lower risk, but still a risk. i got a decent deal, so even if it does go i'd still come in less than typical price, but apart from that i'd have been a lot less likely to buy.

4000 ish BWM's registered in Ireland this year as new cars, which i'm guessing doesn't include UK cars brought in. 2008 to 2011, probably less than thaton average(08 probaly much higher). but still you'd have to think there are 4 to 5k or so of these on the road from the affected model, if the stories of it going past the 2011 models are true it's probably higher.

5% would mean a couple of hundred affected. that's enough to draw the attention this issue is getting. it may be more, but i doubt it's the 30% thrown out as a number. just my opinion though

NewApproach

mossym wrote: »

why bother with the count at all then. :rolleyes:

it's not a proper sample, but that will work both ways. those without an issure aren't rushing to the internet to tell everyone their car is fine. any internet discussion is always heavily weighted towards those with an issue.

the cynic in my says if the numbers had been higher it would have been accepted as a relevant sample.

i'd be thinking Unkel is probably in the right range. that's still way too many. I don't sweat mine too much, it's a 2011 automatic f10, so slightly lower risk, but still a risk. i got a decent deal, so even if it does go i'd still come in less than typical price, but apart from that i'd have been a lot less likely to buy.

4000 ish BWM's registered in Ireland this year as new cars, which i'm guessing doesn't include UK cars brought in. 2008 to 2011, probably less than thaton average(08 probaly much higher). but still you'd have to think there are 4 to 5k or so of these on the road from the affected model, if the stories of it going past the 2011 models are true it's probably higher.

5% would mean a couple of hundred affected. that's enough to draw the attention this issue is getting. it may be more, but i doubt it's the 30% thrown out as a number. just my opinion though

No internet forum is ever going to provide a satisfactory sample for these types of issues.

FWIW I agree with you, I would be amazed if the numbers affected are anywhere near as big as 30%. Given the market prices these models as if it is nearly certain that they are going to be affected, you could argue they make good second hand purchases.

DublinWriter

I have 180K+ up on my 08 E60 and I'm getting the chain replaced this week as a precaution.

Wheelnut

Old diesel wrote: »

I think the point is that these failures SHOULDN'T have being happening in the first place...

I agree with you completely and I am not defending BMW. My point was that the thread was getting a bit hysterical with people saying they would never buy one and they will all go "bang". So at post 152 I asked how many people actually had first-hand experience of the problem just to see what level of knowledge lay behind the posts.

NewApproach wrote: »

Do you think this thread is a relevant sample?

No, not by any means. As explained above it was to find out how many of the posters had first-hand experience and how many were relying on hearsay. That is not to say that the latter group should not post, indeed some of the latter have made good contributions.

landmarkjohn

Wheelnut wrote: »

My point was that the thread was getting a bit hysterical with people saying they would never buy one and they will all go "bang".

I think there are enough examples of failures that I would not buy one, I don't think I would get much sympathy if after being aware of this issue I spent 10-20 K on a 520D and she went bang. A bit like buying a Renault of certain vintage and then being surprised at electrical gremlins.

why have a 520 D when you could have a 535D

mickdw

[Deleted User] wrote: »

why have a 520 D when you could have a 535D

True but I've come around to thinking that the only way to have any bmw is with a comprehensive warranty from main dealer.

mickdw

mickdw wrote: »

True but I've come around to thinking that the only way to have any bmw is with a comprehensive warranty from main dealer.

indeed, it's looking like that alright !

unkel

mickdw wrote: »

True but I've come around to thinking that the only way to have any bmw is with a comprehensive warranty from main dealer.

That will make a €20k car (privately) at least €5k more expensive (BMW dealer with warranty). That's a lot of money!

And honestly, "any bmw" is a bit of a dramatic statement, isn't it? There's one (yes only one) BMW engine that has given trouble in the last decade or so. And then probably only in about 1 in 20 cars.

That said, I wouldn't have much confidence privately buying a N47 engined car myself. I think I would just avoid that engine, or make sure I got it so cheap, that the work is already paid for...