Dublin marathon, the elite results

pconn062

So I thought I'd start a thread after listening to this weeks JTG podcast. The lads were discussing the relatively slow winning times in both the men and women's race, and the National championship races. Let's face it, for a large international race, 2.14 and 2.34 are pretty poor times. As the lads said, the are currently 100's of East Africans currently running sub 2.06/7 and sub 2.25. Interesting comment from Jim Aughney too saying that basically he is trying to build a race where the top elites aren't going to destroy the top Irish runners, so guys who aren't running quicker than 2.12 really (and 2.30 for the ladies). Personally, I'm not sure about this policy.

Is it right to weaken a field just so the Irish guys and girls don't get blown out of it? In that case, why invite International elites at all and ave the possibility of an Irish winner every year? To do that you are sacrificing fast times and possible course records and Dublin will get a reputation as not being a fast race.

The guys also comment on the obvious weakness in the Irish fields, no disrespect to the athletes competing but 2.20 in the men is miles away from competitive and discuss getting younger guys into the marathon earlier.

Thoughts/opinions?

yaboya1

What is the story regarding the foreign Elites? Are they obligated to finish to get paid/earn their expenses etc.?
Somebody told me today that the pre-race favourite for the mens race (Birke) finished in 4.5 hours. I was thinking he must have injured himself at some stage, but why else would he continue in that case unless he was under pressure to do so.
Anyone know the score here?

johnobertie2

for a start there aren't hundreds of East Africans running sub 2-06/7

And the native British and US marathoners have also slowed dramatically in recent years

Netwerk Errer

That whole attitude of watering down a field to protect an athletes emotions really gets on my nerves. These athletes are not children. They have dealt with bigger obstacles in their life than been beaten by a much better athlete. I don't think I have ever heard of an athlete whinging about the field been too strong. In fact, I think they are more annoyed by the lack of depth in most races. I'm a firm believer in competition breeding success.

I don't think the issue is about bringing athletes to the marathon at a young age is the problem because tbh, the lack of depth spans pretty much every distance. I believe the problem starts with poor funding at grassroots level. Athletics just isn't popular enough anymore with kids and there isn't any real push from AI to get kids competing at a young age.

This is the same Jim Aughney who said one of his main goals was to have someone run 2.09 in Dublin. What the hell changed? For me, this friendly marathon philosophy has gone too far if you want to exclude top athletes from the race just to give Irish athletes a pat on the back.

leftism

I can only comment on Eliud's preparation and race plan for Monday which could be summed up in 4 words:

"do nothing until halfway"

Based on the course profile and prevailing winds (especially through the park) our tactic was to shelter and conserve as much possible energy over the first 20km. Watching the race unfold it was immediately apparent that the 3 Ethiopians and Koech had very similar race plans. None of them wanted to put in much work at the front and so a stalemate ensued. Eliud actually ran past his bottle at the 20km feed station. He had time to turn around, run back to the station and pick it up before rejoining the group. His feedback after the race, was that the pace was pedestrian right up until he kicked at 25km. Which suited him just fine. As i mentioned to many people after the race, he didn't come here to run a fast time. If we'd wanted fast times, we'd have sent him to Frankfurt or Amsterdam.

All of the tests we've carried out on Eliud indicate that he has the capacity to run a 2.08. In his debut in Cleveland, he was actually on schedule for a 2.07 right up until the final 5km when he blew up spectacularly, but that was mostly just down to inexperience with feeding etc. Our concern is less about time and more about developing a winning mentality. Finishing top 10 in Chicago probably would have paid out about the same money, but all Eliud would learn is how to finish top 10. A better lesson is to learn how to win.

The bottom line is that with a modest prize purse and no time bonuses, the race was always likely to turn into a game of poker (which i personally find more interesting anyway). If the organisers and fans want faster times, then increase the purse and draw more talent. But for us, the race was perfect for the stage Eliud is at in his career and was a great step forward in his long term development.

-Neil

yaboya1

leftism wrote: »

I can only comment on Eliud's preparation and race plan for Monday which could be summed up in 4 words:

"do nothing until halfway"

Based on the course profile and prevailing winds (especially through the park) our tactic was to shelter and conserve as much possible energy over the first 20km. Watching the race unfold it was immediately apparent that the 3 Ethiopians and Koech had very similar race plans. None of them wanted to put in much work at the front and so a stalemate ensued. Eliud actually ran past his bottle at the 20km feed station. He had time to turn around, run back to the station and pick it up before rejoining the group. His feedback after the race, was that the pace was pedestrian right up until he kicked at 25km. Which suited him just fine. As i mentioned to many people after the race, he didn't come here to run a fast time. If we'd wanted fast times, we'd have sent him to Frankfurt or Amsterdam.

All of the tests we've carried out on Eliud indicate that he has the capacity to run a 2.08. In his debut in Cleveland, he was actually on schedule for a 2.07 right up until the final 5km when he blew up spectacularly, but that was mostly just down to inexperience with feeding etc. Our concern is less about time and more about developing a winning mentality. Finishing top 10 in Chicago probably would have paid out about the same money, but all Eliud would learn is how to finish top 10. A better lesson is to learn how to win.

The bottom line is that with a modest prize purse and no time bonuses, the race was always likely to turn into a game of poker (which i personally find more interesting anyway). If the organisers and fans want faster times, then increase the purse and draw more talent. But for us, the race was perfect for the stage Eliud is at in his career and was a great step forward in his long term development.

-Neil

Thanks for this.
Very interesting to read an Elite's race strategy.

average_runner

The guy in charge of the Dublin marathon said the following about the marathon;

Dublin is not having time bonuses anymore, they dont want the real elite runners any more, more like they want the D or E class runners from Kenya. These are the runners that can run with the top Irish runners to have a proper race.

So basically Dublin marathon is not to be considered for fast kenyans etc but just a good marathon for the newbie's in Kenya etc and help promote our local talent.

average_runner

johnobertie2 wrote: »

for a start there aren't hundreds of East Africans running sub 2-06/7

And the native British and US marathoners have also slowed dramatically in recent years

The British and US slowed down because they abandoned the marathon for the track!

The standard Dublin is looking for, is the 2:12 standard or slower and their is thousands of these in Kenya and Aftrica

leftism

average_runner wrote: »

The British and US slowed down because they abandoned the marathon for the track!

The standard Dublin is looking for, is the 2:12 standard or slower and their is thousands of these in Kenya and Aftrica

Lads, where are yiz getting these numbers from?

Breaking 2.08 would place you top 30 in the world this year.

Breaking 2.12 would place you roughly in the top 150.

10 runners finished under 2.12 in Chicago. In Berlin it was 11. Last year in Berlin there was only 8 under 2.12! This idea that there are thousands of sub 2.12 runners actively competing at any given time is simply untrue.

average_runner

leftism wrote: »

Lads, where are yiz getting these numbers from?

Breaking 2.08 would place you top 30 in the world this year.

Breaking 2.12 would place you roughly in the top 150.

10 runners finished under 2.12 in Chicago. In Berlin it was 11. Last year in Berlin there was only 8 under 2.12! This idea that there are thousands of sub 2.12 runners actively competing at any given time is simply untrue.

No one is saying anything about breaking sub 2:12, we are saying the standard to run 2:12 or worst. Dublin dont want anyone that can run sub 2:12 as they are too good.

Plus look at marathons in Kenya and you have a bigger picture. 7 people broke 2:12 last week in Amsterdam!!

Festinatio Cursor

leftism wrote: »

Lads, where are yiz getting these numbers from?

Breaking 2.08 would place you top 30 in the world this year.

Breaking 2.12 would place you roughly in the top 150.

10 runners finished under 2.12 in Chicago. In Berlin it was 11. Last year in Berlin there was only 8 under 2.12! This idea that there are thousands of sub 2.12 runners actively competing at any given time is simply untrue.

Exactly I think in build up to the Olympics there was 437 Kenyans who had the standard which was 2.15

Couple in Ethiopians and a few Eritreans/Ugandans and that number is probably about 600/700 athletes capable of 2.15 or better, rule out athletes who have committed to other marathons and suddenly that pool is a hell of alot smaller

pconn062

I never said there were 1000's of runners running 2.07, let's not exaggerate. However I read a link recently (on phone now will link it later) that shows the numbers under 2.10 and it's huge. There may be only 12 on Berlin under 2.10 and 10 in Chicago, but it's not the same runners each time. Also I don't really get the point about saying Americans and British are slower, so they are slower so it's ok for us to be slower?? If only the East Africans took the same attitude.

leftism

average_runner wrote: »

7 people broke 2:12 last week in Amsterdam

So 10 in Chicago + 11 in Berlin + 7 in Amsterdam = 28 runners

And those are 3 of the fastest courses on the international circuit!

The idea that there are 1000's of athletes running 2.12 or quicker is nonsense. There are maybe 200 at a push in any given season.

average_runner

leftism wrote: »

So 10 in Chicago + 11 in Berlin + 7 in Amsterdam = 28 runners

And those are 3 of the fastest courses on the international circuit!

The idea that there are 1000's of athletes running 2.12 or quicker is nonsense. There are maybe 200 at a push in any given season.

Who said there was 1000 and who said anything about sub 2:12, i didnt?

And 10 went sub 2:12 in Nairobi marathon in 2012, not a fast marathon either!

leftism

pconn062 wrote: »

I never said there were 1000's of runners running 2.07, let's not exaggerate.

I hate quoting people directly but:

pconn062 wrote: »

As the lads said, the are currently 100's of East Africans currently running sub 2.06/7

Less than 30 athletes on the planet have ran sub 2.08 in 2014. I'm not the one exaggerating...

average_runner

leftism wrote: »

I hate quoting people directly but:



Less than 30 athletes on the planet have ran sub 2.08 in 2014. I'm not the one exaggerating...

Still no mention of 1000's there, except from you

pconn062

leftism wrote: »

I hate quoting people directly but:



Less than 30 athletes on the planet have ran sub 2.08 in 2014. I'm not the one exaggerating...

Yes but I think you've added an extra zero onto what I said! I said 100's, you say there is maybe 200 so we're not exactly disagreeing with each other. But that's missing the main point of the thread which is the Dublin marathons policy with elite runners.

average_runner

At the end of the day, dublin has now stated it doesn't really want elite athletes. While this will lower the standard of Dublin, it will make it more interesting on a competitive front.

And it will make no difference to the joe soap runner.

But they should rebrand the marathon, its not really the Dublin City marathon anymore, its more South Dublin marathon:D

I agree with JTG in that the organisers have abandoned what the marathon stood for by leaving out the north side and having more of it thru the park with feck all crowd there, I mean why not run down Griffeen Ave, there be great support there.

youngrun

Are there many Irish capable of sub 2.20s at present ? And sub 2.20 on a difficult day like mondays conditions on a course like Dublin not Berlin ? Sergiu has 2.15 on a perfect day in 2012, 2.21 this year and seems in good nick. Last years conditions were a couple of mins better than this I would think with wind/humidity etc . Okay there are the likes of Pollock, hehir kenneally and sweeney , but for various reasons not there, after that who is there?

Sacksian

If Tadese or Mutai aren't going to be available, and they're not, then personally I'd rather watch a good race at the front, ideally for the national championship.

As a spectator, a good race at the front captures my imagination more than a procession. How great was it to see Maria McCambridge racing for the win?? Equally, I'm sure this is true for many of the 000s of people who actually stand on the streets watching marathons and who wouldn't necessarily know that the guys they're watching are not real elites.

Irish people have run the Dublin marathon in quick times, so it's not as if it isn't possible. The conditions on Monday were exceptional.

The real question is how to get younger, better athletes into the marathon sooner - competition and success in sport is generally a numbers game - but I don't think that's a problem for the organisers of the Dublin marathon.

Sacksian

Also +1 for a Northside route, Griffith Avenue would be brilliant - possibly even bringing it back to Raheny and across to Santry to take in the larger clubs along the route.

leftism

average_runner wrote: »

Still no mention of 1000's there, except from you

Actually, on rereading your post you said 2.12 or SLOWER so apologies on the misread.

So basically 2.12 or slower is everyone on the planet apart from about 200 men. :P

Regarding the times in Niarobi, i wouldn't have too much faith in those. Eliud did a half marathon 4 weeks ago in Niarobi. The course was out and back. He was 12th at the turn, caught several runners on the back stretch and finished in 35th position. Lots of "short-cuts" being taken in those races...

average_runner

Sacksian wrote: »

Also +1 for a Northside route, Griffith Avenue would be brilliant - possibly even bringing it back to Raheny and across to Santry to take in the larger clubs along the route.

The crowds in Raheny would be amazing, be some buzz around there. Love racing there for the 5 miler in Jan.

leftism

pconn062 wrote: »

Yes but I think you've added an extra zero onto what I said! I said 100's, you say there is maybe 200 so we're not exactly disagreeing with each other. But that's missing the main point of the thread which is the Dublin marathons policy with elite runners.

You said there are 100's of East Africans under 2.08. I'm telling you less than 30 men in the World have done it this season. Anyways, we're arguing semantics. Essentially there are lots of East Africans running fast times, but not as many as people tend to assume.

On the Dublin marathon policy with elite runners, i cannot really comment. We entered Eliud in Wave 1 and were lucky to secure him an elite bib at the very last minute. But he was not invited to race in Dublin.

Krusty_Clown

youngrun wrote: »

Are there many Irish capable of sub 2.20s at present ? And sub 2.20 on a difficult day like mondays conditions on a course like Dublin not Berlin ? Sergiu has 2.15 on a perfect day in 2012, 2.21 this year and seems in good nick. Last years conditions were a couple of mins better than this I would think with wind/humidity etc . Okay there are the likes of Pollock, hehir kenneally and sweeney , but for various reasons not there, after that who is there?

Perhaps stirring the pot a little, but based on his Charleville performance, one would imagine that Fagan would have been competitive. Probably better for all involved that he wasn't there, but his recent times would suggest that he would have been right up there.

TFBubendorfer

average_runner wrote: »

At the end of the day, dublin has now stated it doesn't really want elite athletes. While this will lower the standard of Dublin, it will make it more interesting on a competitive front.

Dublin never had top elite athletes to start with. They don't pay appearance fees, which immediately rules out the top runners.

They always tried to identify young up-and-coming runners, and from what I can see that hasn't changed much.

I think they might be trying to get elites that are better than the best Irish runners at the moment but not completely out of sight, which personally I think is exactly the right thing to do.

RayCun

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

I don't think the issue is about bringing athletes to the marathon at a young age is the problem because tbh, the lack of depth spans pretty much every distance. I believe the problem starts with poor funding at grassroots level. Athletics just isn't popular enough anymore with kids and there isn't any real push from AI to get kids competing at a young age.

There are over 50000 AI members, I think the largest it has ever been. Don't know the exact breakdown but easily 20k juvenile members, probably the largest ever too. There is an insane number of kids competing in Dublin. Massive drop off at about 15 - either they drop athletics or they stop competing, different topic - but at a young age there are loads of kids racing.

Clum

average_runner wrote: »

The guy in charge of the Dublin marathon said the following about the marathon;

Dublin is not having time bonuses anymore, they dont want the real elite runners any more, more like they want the D or E class runners from Kenya. These are the runners that can run with the top Irish runners to have a proper race.

So basically Dublin marathon is not to be considered for fast kenyans etc but just a good marathon for the newbie's in Kenya etc and help promote our local talent.

If Dublin it purposely inviting the D and E class Kenyans who will run with the top class Irish runners it would benefit the Irish runners a lot more if Dublin attracted A and B class Europeans who would also run with the top class Irish runners.

These are the guys Irish runners will compete against in championships. D and E class Kenyans don't go to championships.

At the European Championships this summer in the men's marathon (which wasn't flat and had a nice hill on each lap) the first 26 finished sub 2.20 with the winner home in 2.11. Those 26 runners will be some of the people the top Irish lads will compete against over 10,000m and marathons on the european circuit over the near future.

They'd also attract more publicity for the race if the top marathoners from European countries were competing rather than D and E class, previously unheard of, Kenyans.

28064212

How much should DCM be offering? Current winner's purse is €10,000, how much would that need to be increased to attract a truely top-end talent?

Secondly, what would be the advantage? Obviously Dublin is never going to compete with London, Paris or Berlin in terms of prestige, but is DCM ever likely to get to the level of Frankfurt or Rotterdam? I don't think it's very likely that Dublin will ever be above a third-tier marathon. There's nothing wrong with that, we simply don't have either the natural or economic attributes to compete with the top two tiers. In my opinion, of course.

So with that in mind, what should the purpose of the elite field in Dublin be? Tbh, I can't see a lot wrong with the stated intention of bringing elites who are likely to be just beyond the national contenders. It encourages local improvements, without being massively out of reach. Would Maria McCambridge have run 2:34 if, instead of challenging for the lead, she was 5 minutes behind a Jeptoo or a Kiplagat at halfway?

RayCun

pconn062 wrote: »

Interesting comment from Jim Aughney too saying that basically he is trying to build a race where the top elites aren't going to destroy the top Irish runners, so guys who aren't running quicker than 2.12 really (and 2.30 for the ladies). Personally, I'm not sure about this policy... Is it right to weaken a field just so the Irish guys and girls don't get blown out of it? In that case, why invite International elites at all and ave the possibility of an Irish winner every year? To do that you are sacrificing fast times and possible course records and Dublin will get a reputation as not being a fast race.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Dublin is the 30th fastest race in Europe. And assume that by changing the course a bit, and actively looking for faster runners, you could get that down to 15th or 20th. If you are an elite runner looking to record a very fast time for team qualification or something, you're going to look for a race in the top 5 fastest. Dublin is still not going to get a look-in. So unless Dublin starts offering much larger prizes to winners/fast times, those 2.06/2.07 runners aren't going to come here. They can earn more and run faster somewhere else (even if we say the course is currently 3 minutes 'slow' and you get that down to 90 seconds 'slow'... that is still 'slow')

So if your goal is to make Dublin one of the top ten marathons in the world for fast times and elite runners - give up now. That isn't going to happen. There are other marathons with a lot more money and a lot more status, and there always will be.

But that is not the only possible goal. Dublin is the national marathon championship. Getting the best Irish runners into Dublin is a reasonable target. Because of the nature of marathon running, people can't race in a championship in the summer and also run Dublin in October. And in championship qualification periods, people are going to try to get into the absolute fastest courses. But taking those two factors into account, its worth asking if Dublin is getting a real championship field into each race and if not, what could be done about it?
(Same as with the national track and field championship. You don't always get the very best Irish athletes competing there, because as professionals they have to go where the money is. But you can keep studying the situation and seeing if there's anything that can be changed to make the nationals more attractive)

And does the marathon develop Irish marathon running? I think the women's race was very successful in that respect this year. McCambridge pushed harder and ran faster than she would have without the international competition, and she got the confidence boost of beating a lot of that competition. If the women's winner, or all the international women in a group, had been five minutes up the road, how would that have benefited anyone?

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Dublin is the 30th fastest race in Europe. And assume that by changing the course a bit, and actively looking for faster runners, you could get that down to 15th or 20th. If you are an elite runner looking to record a very fast time for team qualification or something, you're going to look for a race in the top 5 fastest. Dublin is still not going to get a look-in. So unless Dublin starts offering much larger prizes to winners/fast times, those 2.06/2.07 runners aren't going to come here. They can earn more and run faster somewhere else (even if we say the course is currently 3 minutes 'slow' and you get that down to 90 seconds 'slow'... that is still 'slow')

So if your goal is to make Dublin one of the top ten marathons in the world for fast times and elite runners - give up now. That isn't going to happen. There are other marathons with a lot more money and a lot more status, and there always will be.

But that is not the only possible goal. Dublin is the national marathon championship. Getting the best Irish runners into Dublin is a reasonable target. Because of the nature of marathon running, people can't race in a championship in the summer and also run Dublin in October. And in championship qualification periods, people are going to try to get into the absolute fastest courses. But taking those two factors into account, its worth asking if Dublin is getting a real championship field into each race and if not, what could be done about it?
(Same as with the national track and field championship. You don't always get the very best Irish athletes competing there, because as professionals they have to go where the money is. But you can keep studying the situation and seeing if there's anything that can be changed to make the nationals more attractive)

And does the marathon develop Irish marathon running? I think the women's race was very successful in that respect this year. McCambridge pushed harder and ran faster than she would have without the international competition, and she got the confidence boost of beating a lot of that competition. If the women's winner, or all the international women in a group, had been five minutes up the road, how would that have benefited anyone?

As i said its no harm making it a competitive race with a lower standard, might even convince someone to show on the box!!

Chivito550

Clum wrote: »

If Dublin it purposely inviting the D and E class Kenyans who will run with the top class Irish runners it would benefit the Irish runners a lot more if Dublin attracted A and B class Europeans who would also run with the top class Irish runners.

These are the guys Irish runners will compete against in championships. D and E class Kenyans don't go to championships.

At the European Championships this summer in the men's marathon (which wasn't flat and had a nice hill on each lap) the first 26 finished sub 2.20 with the winner home in 2.11. Those 26 runners will be some of the people the top Irish lads will compete against over 10,000m and marathons on the european circuit over the near future.

They'd also attract more publicity for the race if the top marathoners from European countries were competing rather than D and E class, previously unheard of, Kenyans.

I really like this idea. It would be far more interesting to spectators if you have Irish guys in the mix against a guy from France, a Swiss, a Portuguese woman etc. All Kenyans and Ethiopians, in the minds of the general public, sort of get lumped into one, but if you see a leading group of 5 runners, from Ireland, Spain, Russia, Germany and Sweden for example, then each runner becomes identifiable from the other in the minds of the general public. Perhaps encouraging the use of wearing country colours can help.

The only thing is that the Marathon is only on the European Championship programme in non Olympic years, so using the angle of "watch our best against our Euro Champ contenders" will only work in the leadup to an event that takes place every 4 years. This is actually why EAA have made the European Championships every 2 years for track and field events (not marathon and walks) because they are worried that some events that have no European representation on a world level will die a death over the years among European youngsters without more European competition. Maybe more of a European type events in the marathon is the answer?

RayCun wrote: »

(Same as with the national track and field championship. You don't always get the very best Irish athletes competing there, because as professionals they have to go where the money is. But you can keep studying the situation and seeing if there's anything that can be changed to make the nationals more attractive)

This is not true these days. To be selected for Olympics, Worlds and Europeans, you must fulfill the criteria of competing in the National Championships. This year, with it being European Championship year, and having more qualifiers than on other years, they went a step further and added a requirement that athletes must compete in the event that they were qualified to run in Zurich. This was a great idea. Instead of having Gregan running the 200m, English running the 400m, and having somebody who is not the best in Ireland claiming the 400m and 800m national title, we had these athletes running in their proper events. I'd love to see that requirement remains. It adds to the Nationals IMO.

RayCun

Clum wrote: »

If Dublin it purposely inviting the D and E class Kenyans who will run with the top class Irish runners it would benefit the Irish runners a lot more if Dublin attracted A and B class Europeans who would also run with the top class Irish runners.

I would guess that the Kenyans are more available. The top French, German, Spanish marathon runners are going to be in demand by French, German, Spanish marathons.

GoTheDistance

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Perhaps stirring the pot a little, but based on his Charleville performance, one would imagine that Fagan would have been competitive. Probably better for all involved that he wasn't there, but his recent times would suggest that he would have been right up there.

That pot has been stirred more than a little recently. Regardless of his past his Charleville 2014 performance would have seen him challenging for the outright win on Monday, and also the National Championship win. Can you explain how it would have been "probably better for all involved that he wasn't there"?

Krusty_Clown

GoTheDistance wrote: »

That pot has been stirred more than a little recently. Regardless of his past his Charleville 2014 performance would have seen him challenging for the outright win on Monday, and also the National Championship win. Can you explain how it would have been "probably better for all involved that he wasn't there"?

I'm not sure that the other athletes competing in the national championships would have welcomed his participation, and based on the furor when he does participate in a race, the post-race publicity, speculation and debate might not have been good for his personal well-being.

Peterx

Anyone who wasn't there doesn't matter. Half marathon times give an indication, running 26.2 miles on a windy day gives the answers. Form gives an indication and then the race decides who wins. that's the beauty of racing and in particular the marathon. That extra distance just hurts people in different ways.

The poster boy for having a positive attitude and just racing the competition to the very best of your ability is of course not a boy at all but the fabulous Maria McCambridge. If there was to be a poster boy at the domestic level it would be Barry Minnock, who is a clubmate of mine so I'm obviously a little biased.

I don't know whether or not the marathon organisers are deliberately bringing in Africans who are just a little faster but if so it's a brilliant policy. The Irish lads can look at Maria's run this year and see what they have to achieve to win, and that winning is possible.

GoTheDistance

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I'm not sure that the other athletes competing in the national championships would have welcomed his participation, and based on the furor when he does participate in a race, the post-race publicity, speculation and debate might not have been good for his personal well-being.

True. Agreed. And it might have taken from the wonderful achievements of Maria McCambridge on the day. If anyone deserved some spotlight it was her.

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

This is not true these days. To be selected for Olympics, Worlds and Europeans, you must fulfill the criteria of competing in the National Championships.

A similar rule might be too restrictive for the marathon, but its an interesting thought.

Was just looking at this list of top marathon times. The same races come up over and over again
Berlin
Frankfurt
Chicago
Dubai
Rotterdam
London
Paris
Fukuoka

the odd ones out are
New York (Mutai 2:05:06)
Hamburg (Kipchoge 2:05:30)
Seoul (2:05:37)
Vienna (2:05:41)
Tokyo (2:05:42)

but anyone who thinks they can run sub 2:06 will run a race in the first list.

(Add Eindhoven, Prague and Warsaw and you have ten European cities, the only ones to have hosted a sub 2:07 race.)

youngrun

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I'm not sure that the other athletes competing in the national championships would have welcomed his participation, and based on the furor when he does participate in a race, the post-race publicity, speculation and debate might not have been good for his personal well-being.

Probably all true, and its been done to death elsewhere regarding bans etc , but he is allowed to compete and would certainly be well capable of winning a national marathon title . Hard to know if he will ever go for an Irish vest again ?

Krusty_Clown

youngrun wrote: »

Probably all true, and its been done to death elsewhere regarding bans etc , but he is allowed to compete and would certainly be well capable of winning a national marathon title . Hard to know if he will ever go for an Irish vest again ?

It's a moot point now, but I don't believe there's any restriction on where he can/can't compete, including the national championships (as long as he's registered with the AAI). Winning the national championships doesn't necessarily mean that you have to (or are offered the opportunity to) wear the green vest too, so he could have feasibly competed for the outright win in the Dublin marathon and/or the national championship.

Krusty_Clown

It really was a fantastic performance by Maria. How many National marathon championships has she won now? Has she matched/surpassed the hubby's record?

*Edit* Just read the AAI article on the win, and it suggested that this is her third national title in a row. So a win next year would have her tie with Gary Crossan's four title wins in a row. I wouldn't be betting against her. Some record between them!

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

A similar rule might be too restrictive for the marathon, but its an interesting thought.

Was just looking at this list of top marathon times. The same races come up over and over again
Berlin
Frankfurt
Chicago
Dubai
Rotterdam
London
Paris
Fukuoka

the odd ones out are
New York (Mutai 2:05:06)
Hamburg (Kipchoge 2:05:30)
Seoul (2:05:37)
Vienna (2:05:41)
Tokyo (2:05:42)

but anyone who thinks they can run sub 2:06 will run a race in the first list.

(Add Eindhoven, Prague and Warsaw and you have ten European cities, the only ones to have hosted a sub 2:07 race.)

Add Amsterdam to that list also

wall.e

A little bit about the misconception of top times. So far this year 109 performances have been run under 2:10, 27 have been under 2:07. In 2013 174 under 2:10 and 29 under 2:07. 2012 199 under 2:10, 49 under 2:07. 2011 177 under 2:10 and 36 under 2:07. Safe to say we aren't looking at hundreds under even 2:10 in a given year and well south of 50 for sub-2:07 in any given year, except maybe an Olympic year. I took these numbers from the all-time athletics website. I didn't exclude repeat names, my numbers are simply the number of times a human went under 2:10 or 2:07 in each year. They haven't updated since the beginning of the month, but I think my point that the volume of performances in our minds (this is the case here in America as well) is overly exaggerated.

note: Leftism is drawing his top 30 on the IAAF top 30 list published early this month. I misinformed him that sub-2:08 would make their list, checking again I found it is sub-2:07. Still, doesn't change anything.

This brings up the incorrect use of the subjective labels 'D and E class' for the East Africans.

dna_leri

Listened to Eliud Too and Neil on 2nd Captains Podcast
https://soundcloud.com/secondcaptains-it-com/the-kenyan-and-the-irishman-bods-rugby-league-replacement-duffers-ankles

Too says he lived 10K from his primary school and ran there every morning.
He claimed to run home at lunch time 12:45 and get back for 2pm !
And then ran home in the evening with his books on his back.

That's 40K a day (almost a marathon), including 2x10K in about an hour.
Even taking some exaggeration into account that's unbelieveable.
But it does give you some insight into the mileage that kids run there and the motivation that they later have to get out of these "humble beginnings".
Even without any DNA differences, it's hard to compete with this.

wall.e

Through no fault of his own, Eliud exaggerates the distance from home to school a good bit. He's only started training with a Garmin in Kenya in June so his concept of actual distances is off. I would put his house at least 3km but up to 5km from school. I'm trying to remember the route and only a portion is coming to mind, also depends on if you cut through fields or take the road. Surely no further than 5km. Would put him around 12-20 km a day up to class 8 which is still very impressive.

dna_leri

@leftism & @wall.e
Thanks for coming in here and giving some background information on Eliud.

At the end of the interview he mentioned he hoped to make the Kenyan team for Rio in the steeplechase. Does he have a realistic chance of making that? I see his SB was only 8:45 and surely the Kenyan SC team is one of the most competitive.

It's also easy to understand the draw of the marathon for runners like this. The chance of making 10K euro in a race like Dublin v's little or no reward in T&F means that the best athletes are going to continue to head straight for the road.

yaboya1

dna_leri wrote: »

@leftism & @wall.e
Thanks for coming in here and giving some background information on Eliud.

At the end of the interview he mentioned he hoped to make the Kenyan team for Rio in the steeplechase. Does he have a realistic chance of making that? I see his SB was only 8:45 and surely the Kenyan SC team is one of the most competitive.

It's also easy to understand the draw of the marathon for runners like this. The chance of making 10K euro in a race like Dublin v's little or no reward in T&F means that the best athletes are going to continue to head straight for the road.

+1
I didn't do any checking up on his times like you dna_leri, but I heard him say in the interview he was a champion at the 3k steeplechase in Kenya.
Was that at a much lower level then?

leftism

dna_leri wrote: »

@leftism & @wall.e
Thanks for coming in here and giving some background information on Eliud.

At the end of the interview he mentioned he hoped to make the Kenyan team for Rio in the steeplechase. Does he have a realistic chance of making that? I see his SB was only 8:45 and surely the Kenyan SC team is one of the most competitive.

To be honest, this is definitely something that James (wall.e) and myself will continue to discuss with him over the next few months. Eliud loves the steeplechase and has spent most of his career running it. While he still has dreams of representing Kenya in this event, my opinion (based on his physiological profile) is that he is better suited to the longer distances.

His PR is quite a bit faster than the 8.45 that is listed online (James probably has more details on that), but he still has a long ways to go before he is certain of being selected for the Kenyan team. Yet, with less than 6 months of preparation he ran a debut half-marathon of 62 mins! If he continues developing at the rate he has shown over the last year, we are confident he could break 60 mins within the next 2/3 seasons.

I think the other reason Eliud has steeplechase in the back of his mind, is that his team mate (Abraham Kipkirong Chirchir) also works with James. Abraham made the final of the 3000m SC in Daegu and Eliud has been kicking lumps out of him in training camp over the past few months.

At the end of the day, it will be Eliud's decision what events he races. But he has a finite number of years to make money in the sport and i personally believe the best career option for him is to continue developing over the half- and full-marathon distances. I'm sure James can fill in more details and he is always happy to share his opinions.

wall.e

I believe Eliud was a steeplechase champion at the national level in primary and secondary school. Eliud's family didn't have money for him to attend secondary school so Kipchoge Keino gave him a scholarship to run at Kipchoge Keino High School, he had a lot of success there.

His best this year in the steeplechase is 8:36 at Nyayo stadium (in Nairobi), this might be his best ever, and you won't find any record of it. Nyayo is at 1500+ meters of altitude. His 8:45 was up in Nakuru, around 2000+ meters. I took all these altitude readings with my Garmin Fenix, not 100% accurate but these compare to other known reports and I have yet to see any reasons to question the watch's readings. The typical conversion from altitudes such as Nyayo are typically 15 seconds faster for sea level.

In March and early April he competed in a couple of the AK meetings and was placing alongside the top steeplechasers in Kenya. His accomplishments along with the influence of Abraham's accomplishments definitely keep Eliud's fire for the steeplechase lit.

I think it is realistic that Eliud could make an Olympic or Worlds team in the steeplechase. Though, to do this he will need to focus training for that distance's energy system. This would sacrifice at least one, arguably two, marathon seasons to be prepared properly. Financially this is very risky since the Kenyan steeplechase team is the hardest team in the world to make. Just because he is capable of making the team wouldn't mean he WILL make the team. You get one chance at the national trials, but even this can be overruled by an AK decision.

Neil and I provide him with all the pros and cons when we are planning for his future. We've told him how we feel and so have many of the Kenyans from the Cleveland and Dublin fields. That being said we really take each season at a time. We have a pretty set plan for the coming Spring, but at the moment the Fall of next year could go 5 different ways. It really depends on what progress we see in the next season. Eliud is a smart individual and I think if he makes a go at an Olympic or Worlds team it won't have been a hasty decision.

Krusty_Clown

Great informative posts. Just curious, are you guys coaches, or agents or sponsors, or a mix of all of the above?

wall.e

Coaches and managers.