Do we already pay for water?

teddy_303

They can keep their measly water allowance, they cannot be trusted with their Irish Water being enshrined in legislation nonsense, they could easily change it again before their Christmas break late at night and push it through slyly unbeknownst to us all and then sell off Irish Water to O'Brien or the highest bidder.[/QUOTE]


the highest bidder could bid double what D O Brien bids and still lose to him, going on past bidding on mobile phone licence. :mad:

Fr. Ned

teddy_303 wrote: »

They can keep their measly water allowance, they cannot be trusted with their Irish Water being enshrined in legislation nonsense, they could easily change it again before their Christmas break late at night and push it through slyly unbeknownst to us all and then sell off Irish Water to O'Brien or the highest bidder.
the highest bidder could bid double what D O Brien bids and still lose to him, going on past bidding on mobile phone licence. :mad:

The problem enda and the blueshirts have is that they've completely lost the trust of the people.
The only ones who trust them now are their own supporters and shills and even then a few of the more intelligent ones are losing faith too.

alastair

For Reals wrote: »

More complete bull****.
It makes no blind bit of difference to the taxpayer which new body gets his or her taxes. Compartmentalizing these things costs money not saves it. If the taxpayer is paying out more, how is the government saving anyone money, other than from shifting columns in their ledger?
This is the whole problem with the sometimes needs a bailout, recessions are part of life, system.
Cooking the books on the shoulders of the tax payer, looks great on paper but cripples the worker.

The Housing tax and the water tax and extra earners, while Fine Gael can look like financial whizz kids to anyone foolish enough to buy it.

'We can't afford it', that literally goes for everything. The door is open for a myriad of charges and semi/private/state/partner quangos. It's criminal.

Soo... Anything in there that disputes the reality that the LPT is entirely directed to funding local services including street lights? Because that's what they're precisely for.

alastair

Fr. Ned wrote: »

The problem enda and the blueshirts have is that they've completely lost the trust of the people.
The only ones who trust them now are their own supporters and shills and even then a few of the more intelligent ones are losing faith too.

It'll be something of a let-down for you when they end up leading the next government then, I guess? Because I can't see the electoral possibility for much else.

Festus

Fr. Ned wrote: »

The problem enda and the blueshirts have is that they've completely lost the trust of the people.
The only ones who trust them now are their own supporters and shills and even then a few of the more intelligent ones are losing faith too.

I would be cautious on this. I know some of their more intelligent supporters, both shills and operatives as well as supporters personally and they continue to overtly defend Enda and FG.

Enda has ex-communicated himself from the Catholic Church and it is doubtful that any traditionist Catholic will vote for him or his party for a long time to come but some serious dirt is needed for the mainstream (a la carte Catholics and the rest) to see him for what he really is and move their vote to a more appropriate party.

alastair

Festus wrote: »

I would be cautious on this. I know some of their more intelligent supporters, both shills and operatives as well as supporters personally and they continue to overtly defend Enda and FG.

Enda has ex-communicated himself from the Catholic Church and it is doubtful that any traditionist Catholic will vote for him or his party for a long time to come but some serious dirt is needed for the mainstream (a la carte Catholics and the rest) to see him for what he really is and move their vote to a more appropriate party.

Ehh. It's a theory. I guess.

MadYaker

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's interesting how divorced popular narratives can be from reality. The bailout wasn't additional money we had to spend on top of our normal borrowing, nor did any of it go into the banks.

The bailout was a loan that did nothing more than replace what would otherwise have been borrowing from the markets, and with loans that carried lower interest rates than the market would have charged - much lower, after rates were changed a couple of months in.

Our debt is currently €174bn, interest is currently about €7.9bn total. The bailout was €67.5bn, at interest rates of 5% on the IMF's €22.5bn, and 2.5% on the other €45bn from Europe. So of the interest we currently pay, €1.125bn is to the IMF, €1.125bn to Europe (EFSF/EU), and the other €5.7bn to the markets.

What would the position have been without the bailout? Well, market interest rates at the time of the bailout were around 8%, so if we'd borrowed from the markets instead of the EU/IMF, we'd be paying €5.4bn on the €67.5bn, for a total interest payment annually of €11.1bn instead of €7.9bn - we'd be €3.2bn annually worse off.

And we would have borrowed the money anyway, because all of that €67.5bn went into our deficit. It was only a question of where we borrowed it from, not of whether we would borrow it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

This thread is very entertaining. When someone comes in and posts facts backed up by figures they are totally ignored by the anti water charge brigade who just continue on with the senseless rant.

Festus

alastair wrote: »

Ehh. It's a theory. I guess.

Hey, all I'm saying is that there are a lot if idiots who will continue to vote FG regardless of what Enda et al. do on the water issue or any other issue.

Festus

MadYaker wrote: »

This thread is very entertaining. When someone comes in and posts facts backed up by figures they are totally ignored by the anti water charge brigade who just continue on with the senseless rant.

Seriously!

Fact is, we have had a water supply since before independence which means that it has been paid for somehow.

Fact is, What is being proposed now is a charge for water with no reduction in the existing charge for the water we are currently paying for.

Plus, they want additional data the no other utility is entitled to ask for.

And there is the potential for this utility and its databank including PPS numbers and bank details along with everything else they collect being sold off to the private sector a few years down the line.

and you wonder why the anti water charge brigade is pissed off.

FREETV

Interesting , how Iceland are thriving now and they got rid of their corrupt Government peacefully.
Of course it was not mentioned in the media in other countries for obvious reasons.
We can do the exact same thing and should do it instead of talking.
We need action, not words.

http://www.organictalks.com/know-icelanders-overthrew-government-jailed-bankers-rewriting-constitution/

I will never pay for water three times.

twowheelsgood

Festus wrote: »

Fact is, we have had a water supply since before independence which means that it has been paid for somehow.

True

Festus wrote: »

Fact is, What is being proposed now is a charge for water with no reduction in the existing charge for the water we are currently paying for.

This fallacy has been corrected many, many times.

Festus wrote: »

and you wonder why the anti water charge brigade is pissed off.

It has nothing to do with the various, sometimes legitimate, questions raised around the setting up of IW. People will resist any measures that hit their pockets if they have means to do so. That water charges, like the HHC, and unlike measures such as the USC, requires a degree of cooperation from the public gives them their means.

Also, many seem to buy in to the same fallacy as you - believing that they are paying twice and imagining that if IW is dismantled they will be better off in the long run by a few hundred euro per annum.

alastair

FREETV wrote: »

Interesting , how Iceland are thriving now and they got rid of their corrupt Government peacefully.
Of course it was not mentioned in the media in other countries for obvious reasons.

It was certainly mentioned in the media I'm familiar with. You sure you didn't have your head in the sand?

FreudianSlippers

Festus wrote: »

Seriously!

Fact is, we have had a water supply since before independence which means that it has been paid for somehow.

Fact is, What is being proposed now is a charge for water with no reduction in the existing charge for the water we are currently paying for.

Fact is, that the current amount we pay into the general taxation pool is now no longer being allocated to water.

Plus, they want additional data the no other utility is entitled to ask for.

Because those utilities are not giving you allowances.

And there is the potential for this utility and its databank including PPS numbers and bank details along with everything else they collect being sold off to the private sector a few years down the line.

The OBSESSION with PPS numbers is infuriating. There is legislation which prohibits this in addition to data protection laws.

FREETV wrote: »

Interesting , how Iceland are thriving now and they got rid of their corrupt Government peacefully.
Of course it was not mentioned in the media in other countries for obvious reasons.
We can do the exact same thing and should do it instead of talking.
We need action, not words.

http://www.organictalks.com/know-icelanders-overthrew-government-jailed-bankers-rewriting-constitution/

I will never pay for water three times.

Iceland again. They have a ****load of aluminium, geothermal energy and their own (worthless) currency. Their issue was a stock market collapse and not a property collapse. We are NOT comparators for the billionth time.

Zubeneschamali

Festus wrote: »

Enda has ex-communicated himself from the Catholic Church and it is doubtful that any traditionist Catholic will vote for him or his party for a long time to come but some serious dirt is needed for the mainstream (a la carte Catholics and the rest) to see him for what he really is and move their vote to a more appropriate party.

FG are the best party to lead the government, but not because Enda is wonderful. He's an empty suit full of weasels, but the other parties are much, much worse.

And really, nobody cares about the Catholic Church anymore. Even an empty suit full of weasels can safely defy them.

The_Captain

alastair wrote: »

It'll be something of a let-down for you when they end up leading the next government then, I guess? Because I can't see the electoral possibility for much else.

Fine Gael mouthpiece loves Fine Gael shocker

alastair

The_Captain wrote: »

Fine Gael mouthpiece loves Fine Gael shocker

Neither a FG mouthpiece, nor a FG voter. Shocker!

meglome

The_Captain wrote: »

Fine Gael mouthpiece loves Fine Gael shocker

What is it with you people. Has he said something that wasn't entirely true? or perhaps that's the issue.

FREETV

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

FG are the best party to lead the government, but not because Enda is wonderful. He's an empty suit full of weasels, but the other parties are much, much worse.

And really, nobody cares about the Catholic Church anymore. Even an empty suit full of weasels can safely defy them.

Really, he is hated and is it any wonder why? :rolleyes:

http://www.theliberal.ie/must-read-enda-kenny-is-said-to-be-livid-with-the-irish-public/

Good loser

Festus wrote: »

Seriously!

Fact is, we have had a water supply since before independence which means that it has been paid for somehow.

Fact is, What is being proposed now is a charge for water with no reduction in the existing charge for the water we are currently paying for.

Plus, they want additional data the no other utility is entitled to ask for.

And there is the potential for this utility and its databank including PPS numbers and bank details along with everything else they collect being sold off to the private sector a few years down the line.

and you wonder why the anti water charge brigade is pissed off.

The fact that this is rubbish has been pointed out already many times on this and similar threads.

Irish water costs will remain the same before and after the setting up of IW. So we (as you use the word) will, in bulk, have to spend the same sums. The only difference will be how it's collected. It will all come from the population.

If you don't get this concentrate on the tenses. Through taxes we paid for all water costs up to Oct 1; from Jan 1 money will be collected from the population to pay for some of the water costs. The balance will be borrowed.

It's a matter of that was then/this is now.

MadYaker

Even if we never have to pay for water the money will have to come from somewhere. Id rather pay water charges than more income tax or USC. Plus it makes more sense from a government finances point of view to have irish water funded as a separate utility so its off the government books and makes it easier for us to meet the targets agreed to with the troika.

Zubeneschamali

MadYaker wrote: »

Id rather pay water charges than more income tax or USC.

When the protestors say "We already pay for water" they really mean "You PAYE suckers already pay for the water we get free".

mrbrianj

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

When the protestors say "We already pay for water" they really mean "You PAYE suckers already pay for the water we get free".

Certainly an element of truth but the opposition to IW has moved past Social welfare vs. PAYE.

Are there many PAYE workers happy with the F up the establishment of Irish Water is?

I would like value for money, not bonus for non performance. I question why MegaBucks consultants are needed by an already established utility(bord Gais) to tell them how to set up a utility.
I would like clarity - oh wait thats next week!!

Zubeneschamali

mrbrianj wrote: »

Are there many PAYE workers happy with the F up the establishment of Irish Water is?

Now you are conflating two issues.

Given that IW is cloned from Bord Gais, I'm pretty sure that BG has all the issues we've seen in IW. Are people going to refuse to pay their gas bills?

The ESB has been a world champion at feather bedding and union mollycoddling for its whole history - are we going to refuse to pay electricity charges?

When Eircom was created from the P&T, it was colossally overstaffed, adding hundreds of pounds to everyones phone bill (back when hundreds of pounds was real money) for workers who were surplus to requirements. They created PhoneWatch just to try and soak up some staff.

Now, I agree that when you are setting up a new enterprise, you should minimise these issues - but IW isn't a normal enterprise, it pretty much had to take on all the council workers in this area. They will only be able to economise and create efficiency over time.

creedp

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Now you are conflating two issues.

Given that IW is cloned from Bord Gais, I'm pretty sure that BG has all the issues we've seen in IW. Are people going to refuse to pay their gas bills?

The ESB has been a world champion at feather bedding and union mollycoddling for its whole history - are we going to refuse to pay electricity charges?

When Eircom was created from the P&T, it was colossally overstaffed, adding hundreds of pounds to everyones phone bill (back when hundreds of pounds was real money) for workers who were surplus to requirements. They created PhoneWatch just to try and soak up some staff.

Now, I agree that when you are setting up a new enterprise, you should minimise these issues - but IW isn't a normal enterprise, it pretty much had to take on all the council workers in this area. They will only be able to economise and create efficiency over time.

All very well and I fully support your views with respect to BG and ESB. However, by cloning IW from the same dna are we saying that we can never change anyting in this country .. we can never improve anything? Apparently its OK to increase existing taxes and invent new ones for the great unwashed to pay but its not OK to require the establishment to learn from its well publicised errors of the past .. IW should be an example of what FG have been preaching, i.e. a shining example of political and institutional reform, instead it seems people are happy that FG continue with more of the same. This is why we get the politician we get time and time again.

Sheldons Brain

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Given that IW is cloned from Bord Gais, I'm pretty sure that BG has all the issues we've seen in IW. Are people going to refuse to pay their gas bills?
.

Ans of course Bord Gais had to take over the dysfunctional private sector Dublin Gas.

Zubeneschamali

creedp wrote: »

However, by cloning IW from the same dna are we saying that we can never change anyting in this country .. we can never improve anything?

I think the plan is to improve. The real goal of Irish Water is not to deliver water efficiently to the public. It is to take the current mess off the government accounts, and then make it efficient afterwards.

If IW was set up as an efficient body day one, it would leave all the surplus council workers sitting on their holes with permanent pensionable public service wages and no work.

IW has to take this whole mess on, and then make those workers quit. So for the first 10 years, IW is going to be an absolutely horrible employer. They are going to award performance bonuses to the people they want to keep, and award big fat zeroes to the guys over 40 that they want rid of. They'll be called in by HR and told in HR speak to bugger off. Every quarter.

But these guys stayed in Council employment right through the boom, they have their eyes on a PS pension. They will not be easy to shift.

Aer Lingus have done a pretty good job with this kind of thing, but they have Ryanair to scare the staff with. Staff knew Aer Lingus really could close. IW won't have that, so they'll have to make things really unpleasant to get the wasters to leave.

Zubeneschamali

If this is the plan, no-one can say it out loud, obviously. But I think that's what the year-on-year efficiency targets are about.