**Spoilers** Series 8, Episode 11 - "Dark Water"

pixelburp

So here we are, the finale already; seems like the episodes have flown by, though given the series is one episode shorter than before, that would partially account for the sense of brevity.

I said it in the dedicated thread, but I'm a little leery about Missy. I've found her performances so OTT and borderline scenery-chewing, the prospect of a whole episode dedicated to her maniacal self feels... daunting. I am very curious though as to how Clara fits into it all, given Missy spoke of 'choosing' Clara.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFKZ-aBbu_s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_HdeOXdBUo

Mr Bloat

It looks bloody brilliant, I hope it lives up to the expectation.

Wibbs

Cybermen plus woman done up in Victorian garb? Whatabout Mercy Hartigan played by Dervla Kirwan in The Next Doctor? I did have to look that bit up. Though it sounded familiar. Maybe she somehow survived in another dimension and grew older and more powerful and came back looking for revenge?

EDIT Wrong thread. Feck

SparkySpitfire

Bit of a Mount Doom moment going on here...

Lord TSC

Don't even mind they spoiled the Cybermen. Don't mind that "Missy" turned out to be the most obvious interpretation.

I had goosebumps during that final scene.

Busi_Girl08

kinda disappointed that it's the Master. Would have been more refreshing to have the return of The Rani, or even Romana going bad.

TheDoctor

Hurry up or I'll throw my shoe at you

The_Valeyard

Wasn't bad, wasn't great. But grand.

flazio

No need for the spoilers tag. I thought it was Romana when she said Missy stood for Mistress.

Busi_Girl08

"What's with all the swear words?"
"Oh, sorry, there's a lot of internal anger" Oooooh I do love the Thick of It references.


Very dark episode as far as Doctor Who eps go. Danny's ordeal was pretty nasty.

tritium

Disappointed tbh-moffitt seems to have sold out and set a precedent that he never should have. Unless there's a really abstract reason behind all this I'll be well pissed that he didn't just bring back the Rani.

Busi_Girl08

flazio wrote: »

No need for the spoilers tag. I thought it was Romana when she said Missy stood for Mistress.

I just wanted to be careful. It just seemed very same old same old.


And they are very clearly gearing towards a male-female regeneration for the Doctor next time round, with the Doctor Clara episode a couple of weeks back and now this.

Angron

I won't lie, when they mentioned Doctor Skarosa or whatever it was, I was thinking "Hmm, very close to Skaro... I hope they aren't bring back Daleks again anyway." Decent enough episode, interested in where they'll go in part 2.

Busi_Girl08

I'm interested where they'll go with the "Clara Oswald never existed" bit next week. Maybe Clara finds her own records at the Promised Land.


Is anyone else just really excited about an Ollie/Malcolm Tucker reunion, just less sweary?

Lord TSC

tritium wrote: »

Disappointed tbh-moffitt seems to have sold out and set a precedent that he never should have. Unless there's a really abstract reason behind all this I'll be well pissed that he didn't just bring back the Rani.

The problem is that I'd imagine there's a massive chunk (possibly a majority) of fans who never watched the old series, and who only barely knows the Rani's name by obscure references. The Master pretty much is THE Anti-Doctor and his biggest equal in terms of the new era of Doctor Who....

Angron

Lord TSC wrote: »

The problem is that I'd imagine there's a massive chunk (possibly a majority) of fans who never watched the old series, and who only barely knows the Rani's name by obscure references. The Master pretty much is THE Anti-Doctor and his biggest equal in terms of the new era of Doctor Who....

Damn casuals :pac:

I really liked that it was awesome
good lines
good thing with the clara going nuts in volcano and then it was all a dream

and the afterlife thing was explained nicely because it would have been a mental thing to actually try claim it's real
i suppose what else could it have been except like how river ended up

The One Doctor

Two things:

1. I no longer give a crap about Clara and Danny, it's just boring at this stage.

2. The Master regenerated as a woman. Moffat's lost whatever he had and given it to the fanfic crowd.

Apart from that, having the Cybermen back is great.

Busi_Girl08

Also:

Missy: "You left me for dead!"

Uh, no you didn't. You sacrificed yourself to stop the evil Time Lords.

ebbsy

Bloody good episode that. An interesting story told well with fantastic acting.

Doctor Who is great.

Lord TSC

Busi_Girl08 wrote: »

Uh, no you didn't. You sacrificed yourself to stop the evil Time Lords.

It's surprising me how many people online are forgetting The Master is a psychopath and a bad guy; she'll have her own twisted logic that obviously won't make sense, else we'd side with her over the Doctor.

Busi_Girl08

Lord TSC wrote: »

It's surprising me how many people online are forgetting The Master is a psychopath and a bad guy; she'll have her own twisted logic that obviously won't make sense, else we'd side with her over the Doctor.

Listen, I get that. I remember the Master's last scene. When he turned around and redeemed himself. Then Moffat has done the classic move of completely pissing on that final scene (remember Rose?) for the sake of a new story. Again, he could have done the same thing with any other character, hell, even Susan (although the kiss would have been creepy), and it would have had way more impact.

Mr Rhode Island Red

SHIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHD

YER WAN IS YER MAN

flazio

The One Doctor wrote: »

Two things:

1. I no longer give a crap about Clara and Danny, it's just boring at this stage.

2. The Master regenerated as a woman. Moffat's lost whatever he had and given it to the fanfic crowd.

Apart from that, having the Cybermen back is great.

Re 2: It was actually Gaiman who did it back in the Doctor's Wife when he said that the Corsair regenerated into a woman a few times.

martingriff

Busi_Girl08 wrote: »

Listen, I get that. I remember the Master's last scene. When he turned around and redeemed himself. Then Moffat has done the classic move of completely pissing on that final scene (remember Rose?) for the sake of a new story. Again, he could have done the same thing with any other character, hell, even Susan (although the kiss would have been creepy), and it would have had way more impact.

What with Rose. The Master is an evil guy/ woman his redemption was because he realized what would happen if gallofrey came back not to be good

Angron

Maybe it wasn't a thing of redemption though. Maybe he stopped Rassilon not because he was becoming good, but because he was just that furious at the fact that it was Rassilon implanting the sound of drums in his head that drove him mad in the first place. He technically didn't have to sacrifice himself, and that the Doctor didn't save him could be the "left me to die" thing.

Course, it'll still have to explain how the Master escaped the Time War/pocket dimension whilst the rest of Gallifrey is still stuck in limbo, but I'm sure we'll get to that next week.

Busi_Girl08

martingriff wrote: »

What with Rose. The Master is an evil guy/ woman his redemption was because he realized what would happen if gallofrey came back not to be good

I just think it's a very cheap fan service, and honestly, kind of lazy.

"Right. Big Bad reveal time. We could build a big, in-depth shocker reveal, bringing back old, forgotten relationships to remind the fanbase of the actual roots of the Doctor and the Doctor Who arc - of which there are many open to revisits, or we could bring back a relatively recent character, who given their last scene we should never see again."

That with Rose, by the way.

Same old, same old again.

martingriff

Busi_Girl08 wrote: »

I just think it's a very cheap fan service, and honestly, kind of lazy.

"Right. Big Bad reveal time. We could build a big, in-depth shocker reveal, bringing back old, forgotten relationships to remind the fanbase of the actual roots of the Doctor and the Doctor Who arc - of which there are many open to revisits, or we could bring back a relatively recent character, who given their last scene we should never see again."

That with Rose, by the way.

Same old, same old again.

You mean parallel universe and here in it I thought each time she came back it had a doctor who good logic. Do not forget The Master is a time lord also so unless he has used his regeneration he could always come back.

We had a big massive goodbye to rose then suddenly she showed up again for a second big goodbye

I liked rose anyway though and I didn't mind her coming back.

I don't mind too much if the master is coming back. Maybe it's a corrupted program or memory thing since we have that nethersphere, or ... something, I duno

Busi_Girl08

As Bluewolf said.The Big Goodbye, never to bee seen again.....again. They made the big thing of Rose and the Doctor never to see each other again....until about 2 years later.


Now I'll happily sit back and wait till next week and see what happens. Hopefully there'll be a good explanation for the Master's escape from the time freeze, and not just a throw-away "wibbly-wobbly timey wimey" throw-away.

Das Kitty

The One Doctor wrote: »

2. The Master regenerated as a woman. Moffat's lost whatever he had and given it to the fanfic crowd.

I'm fairly sure the fanfic crowd prefer it when you're both blokes...


I loved it anyway. I guessed in ep 1 it was the Master, but then second guessed myself tonight at the "short for Mistress" line.

Danny though... I've been patient with him all series, but I was begging him to hit the delete button tonight.

The_Valeyard

I still think we are missing something..

Her lines make no sense, The Doctor did not leave the Master to die?????

Unless (s)he is pissed that DocSmith pulled Gallifrey into a pocket universe at around the same time DocTennant was pulling Gallifrey back into its own space and time.

Ah Well, at least the 11th Doctor didnt have to deal with the whole Master mess......

Still have a niggling feeling it might not be the master.....its just too easy....and continuity errors....grrr annoyed.

And who was GUS????????????????????

FunLover18

Really didn't like Clara's utter betrayal and threatening, it felt really out of character. Also despite all the attention they lavished on Clara/Danny there's very little chemistry and it really doesn't feel at all like the great TV romance they're making it out to be. DESPITE that Capaldi is brilliant and his delivery of the line "Do you really think I care so little about you that it would make a difference?" referring to the betrayal was perfect. If anything I'm looking forward to many more years with Doctor Capaldi.

On another note I know they changed it for the sake of the big reveal but aside from that I don't see why a woman can't be a 'Master'. I know you can't refer to a woman as Master Soandso but this is just The Master and The Mistress doesn't have the same connotations.

Das Kitty

FunLover18 wrote: »

Really didn't like Clara's utter betrayal and threatening, it felt really out of character.

I dunno. A grieving control freak? I thought it was the most in character she's been in a while. She played a blinder IMO.

I also liked the Doctor's reaction. Who knows more about loss than him?

Das Kitty

Das Kitty wrote: »

I dunno. A grieving control freak? I thought it was the most in character she's been in a while. She played a blinder IMO.

Exactly



I did quite enjoy the bits like
"what now?"
"go to hell"
":( fair enough."
"no, srsly"

and
"he was convinced these were the recent dead"
"because he's an idiot?"

Sonics2k

I loved Capaldi in this episode. He was brilliant. A complete bástard at times, but still very much the good guy.
Even though Clara does betray him, he is still willing to help her and actually admits he does care about her a lot, something I don't think he's really done since Eleven.

My only wish for that opening by the volcano is that it would be real, but after Clara threw in the last key, the Doctor would just click his fingers and the door would open.

As an episode it was solid, but honestly I truly wish they'd kept the Cybermen out of the trailers all over TV and social media. It ruined the surprise for me because I knew what they'd be the whole time. It would have been a million times more mind-blowing if it had been a surprise.

Missy as the Master, well I have no real issue with it. She does look a bit like a psychopathic lizard, but I'm okay with that as she seemed quite solid, a nice cross between John Simm and Anthony Ainley from what I saw. The Master as a female, well it's not really a big deal to me. I'm curious to know how the Master got out of the Time War though, and it didn't surprise me she believe the Doctor abandoned her.

Overall, as an episode it was one of the better ones of the season. Capaldi shined in the role, Clara was a bit more acceptable than a few of the previous ones and even Danny Pink wasn't a complete waste of space. I still think he's a knob though.

Lastly! This is an excerpt from a conversation between the OH (who hates the show) and myself.

*Clara and Danny are on the phone at the start*
Me: "Oh god I hope they kill him off soon."
OH: "It'd be funny if he got hit by a car or something"
Me: "Naaahhhhh, that's so not in the style of the show. A ponce like him gets a grand death scene or something."
*thunk sound on the TV*
OH looks smug.
Me: "God dammit."

tommy2bad

Hard to judge this ep because it's only one half of a story. As an opening it was excellent, up to the point 'and then they woke up' That's the laziest plot device ever. What about the clicking your fingers thing, is that feature now broken on the tardis?

Shipping the Dr and the Master, god, Moffat seems to get most of his ideas from online fanfic.
Never mind, this is DrWho, we let things like that go if it's entertaining enough. This wasn't, it might be when we see the complete story so a waiting game for the full verdict. Enough stuff to keep me watching, the cybermen from cyberspace, Clara going from mad with grief to slightly unsure to kicking ass ( cos we seen that in the sneek peek) the doctor answering the 'am I a good man question'. His loyalty to Clara over all else showing it.
Now if Capaldi and Addison don't have a scene together next week their's going to be disappointment.

SimonTemplar

The reveal of the Cyberman's eyes as the design of the door windows was great but was completely ruined by the fact that they featured heavily in the trailer.

The setup on that volcano planet was great but the "it was only a dream" reveal was a huge disappointing anti-climax. It felt cheap. I wish Moffat took a risk and actually locked the Doctor out of the Tardis, and most of the episode was about the fall out from that. Also, throughout that whole scene, I was thinking that the doctor can just snap his fingers to open the door. There should have been a quick line from Clara to say that she disabled that function.

ixoy

As much as it might be fun for us longer term fans to get the Rani it would make little sense for the show to bring back a villain who was only ever in two serials, the last of which was 28 years ago. May as well have a sex-changed Meddling Monk.

It probably is the Master - there was some line before about how Time Lords always recognise each other and the Doctor is probably in denial. The Master's a lunatic so he probably distorts his own memory of the past. It could be something more but most likely not.

I'd love though if they had other previous deaths from earlier seasons as Cyberma - Cyber Adric would be particularly fitting.

Busi_Girl08

I just had a thought (and I realise I'm nitpicking and in the grand scheme of things this isn't the craziest thing that happened last night, albeit it's a bit of a plothole):

Seb explains that while Danny is dead, his soul/consciousness is still alive and linked to the body - hence the feeling cold, the "Don't Cremate me!!!" and the guy whose body was donated to science (ouch).

So if that's the case, then surely Danny should be feeling the effects of the injuries that caused his death: broken bones, head injuries, etc. Nope, just cold.

I thought that was just part of the trickery since they're just uploaded to the sphere and not actually still connected

SueBoom

Really enjoyed this. It got spoiled for me last night online unfortunately. I was genuinely shocked she turned out to be The Master though, loved the reveal. I don't see the problem with it being a woman, I think that made it even less obvious who it was going to be. I could be wrong but I never really saw Moffat as the type to give into pressure from anything, especially fanfic. I would have thought Davies was more susceptible to that but that's neither here not there.

It'll be interesting to see if Moffat's pulled a fast one and it turns out not to be The Master.

Clara has HUGELY improved this series, I intensely disliked her before. I'll still be glad to see the back of her though, dying for a new companion. It's pretty difficult to take her and Pink's relationship seriously, the intensity she displayed in this episode came out of nowhere for me.

Anyway, can't wait for next week. Hour long episode!

flazio

My thoughts regarding the finger click is that it is like a keyless system on a car, you still need a key or a keycard on you to make it work.

brianon

I really like Clara but the relationship with Danny just doesn't work on screen. They are in love ? Fine. But we didn't see any of it. Their chemistry has been built off screen so I'm not feeling it. When Danny dies and Clara has a meltdown... that's fine but kinda seems outta place as we really don't have any insight into their relationship.

NyOmnishambles

I liked the "you have ipads in the afterlife" "We've got Steve Jobs" interchange

Will reserve judgement until we see the rest because you can't really judgement it on its own but it sets up next week as an all actioner

FunLover18

Das Kitty wrote: »

I dunno. A grieving control freak? I thought it was the most in character she's been in a while. She played a blinder IMO.

I also liked the Doctor's reaction. Who knows more about loss than him?

Clara's a control freak? Since when? She lives her life on a complete whim going on random adventures through space and time with discernible plans … ever

NyOmnishambles

FunLover18 wrote: »

Clara's a control freak? Since when? She lives her life on a complete whim going on random adventures through space and time with discernible plans … ever

They made a big point of it being part of he personality n the first episode of the season?

FunLover18

NyOmnishambles wrote: »

They made a big point of it being part of he personality n the first episode of the season?

I genuinely have no recollection of that and am really surprised, I've never seen her as a control freak … but then I do tend to get lost in her eyes. Which reminds me, I loved the Doctor's line about them "It's like they inflate, how do you do that?"

tommy2bad

brianon wrote: »

I really like Clara but the relationship with Danny just doesn't work on screen. They are in love ? Fine. But we didn't see any of it. Their chemistry has been built off screen so I'm not feeling it. When Danny dies and Clara has a meltdown... that's fine but kinda seems outta place as we really don't have any insight into their relationship.

To an extent your right. However we do see the bit when Clara has decided to commit to Danny, telling him everything when right in the middle of it...poor old Mr Pink gets hit by a bus. OK a car but it's the randomness of it that drives Clara past mere loss into a kind of madness. Clara's control instinct is offended and her desire to regain control is what leads to nicking the Dr and the tardis.

Best line was the psychic paper quip, Whats all this swearing? - I have anger issues! Oh and that the book the key was hidden in was the Time travelers wife. I watched it again to see if they did a evil dead type appropriate book thing.

BlitzKrieg

I enjoyed that.


Its odd that it's the second time now that the daleks have featured in a finale being dead people (In Doomsday everybody thought they were ghosts)

But I'm very glad it got explained out the way it did, I was feeling very nervous when the doctor said they were going to hell and that we were going to go the literal route. But I really liked the actual explanation and the red herring of dead people being connected to their bodies (1. I love the hit you with my shoe etc comments very much the same responses I was giving and 2. Of Course Danny feels cold, his body is in a cyber suit.)


Some thoughts running off (I'll get to missy in the end)

-Something was very clearly up with Clara at the beginning that maybe more then just trying to repair the damage from the end of the last episode. In fact looking back at the scene it does seem to be tying to hint at something bigger especially when she looks at the wall and it lists a lot of the unexplained bits of from the season so far and also the classic Impossible girl bit (let's just say this right now, impossible girl is Moffet's Bad Wolf) I suspect some time foolery from Clara setting up some way out of this (hence why she needed to talk to danny on the phone and not directly, some subsconcious decision to get him into the position to be killed)


On Mr Pink we do have some threads left hanging from earlier in the series involving danny pink (the episode with the soldier named blue who lost a brother who everyone is expecting to be pink who was introduced in the same episode) and it is an interesting episode because it was about changing the enemy from within, danny pink is now in the cybermen mainframe....hmm. His and Clara's plotline is really boring but at this point I suspect it's borderline intentional and there is something under it that is dark (Lying being another key theme of this season)


So our Lazarus happy ending if we have to suffer it and I fear we might. Danny is saved because cybermen need a living brain to operate, he's not been dead long enough for his body to decay so once missy is defeated we will get some stupid reason to pop him out of a cyberman.

Our less happy ending but still victory is danny stuck/sacrficing his cyberman version to save clara etc. Danny dies but the day is saved clara is so shook up from it all that she quits travelling with the doctor.


Thats sort of the expected routes this will take, I'm still hoping for something more substantial and we know Clara bows out at the end of this season so a big part of me wants that she bows out on something more meaningful then just leaving or being cut off from the doctor. I really want it to be almost crazy and with the little tidbits still involving her left over I'm hoping they will. And thats kind of where I'm hoping it'll come back to Missy somehow, that yes it's the master regenerated into a woman, but not because of choice, perhaps it involves Clara, she's already so firmly drilled into the doctor's past, would it be that insane that the impossible girl is tied to the master? I mean we know she has countless iterations of her throughout his timeline (and we were reminded of that this season via "Listen") and there is only one other person who has such an equally long history with the doctor.

tommy2bad

@BlitzKrieg I'v been mulling over the notion that the Master and Clara are two sides of the same coin, possibly two aspects of a split personality. However resolving this would mean redeeming the master and so removing a classic opponent for the doctor. Not going to happen. It would nicely terminate the Clara story line though, raising her to time lord and letting her head off into the sunset with Danny so the future Danny guy could happen and it could explain the Danny lookalike as a alternative time line that no longer involves Clara, my Clara. Clara has a lot of doctorish traits which this would explain.
But as I said binning a reusable villain is as likely as binning tubing or plasterboard sets in Dr Who. They tend to recycle everything.