**Spoilers** Series 8, Episode 11 - "Dark Water"

The_Valeyard

I still think we are missing something..

Her lines make no sense, The Doctor did not leave the Master to die?????

Unless (s)he is pissed that DocSmith pulled Gallifrey into a pocket universe at around the same time DocTennant was pulling Gallifrey back into its own space and time.

Ah Well, at least the 11th Doctor didnt have to deal with the whole Master mess......

Still have a niggling feeling it might not be the master.....its just too easy....and continuity errors....grrr annoyed.

And who was GUS????????????????????

FunLover18

Really didn't like Clara's utter betrayal and threatening, it felt really out of character. Also despite all the attention they lavished on Clara/Danny there's very little chemistry and it really doesn't feel at all like the great TV romance they're making it out to be. DESPITE that Capaldi is brilliant and his delivery of the line "Do you really think I care so little about you that it would make a difference?" referring to the betrayal was perfect. If anything I'm looking forward to many more years with Doctor Capaldi.

On another note I know they changed it for the sake of the big reveal but aside from that I don't see why a woman can't be a 'Master'. I know you can't refer to a woman as Master Soandso but this is just The Master and The Mistress doesn't have the same connotations.

Das Kitty

FunLover18 wrote: »

Really didn't like Clara's utter betrayal and threatening, it felt really out of character.

I dunno. A grieving control freak? I thought it was the most in character she's been in a while. She played a blinder IMO.

I also liked the Doctor's reaction. Who knows more about loss than him?

coffee_cake

Das Kitty wrote: »

I dunno. A grieving control freak? I thought it was the most in character she's been in a while. She played a blinder IMO.

Exactly



I did quite enjoy the bits like
"what now?"
"go to hell"
":( fair enough."
"no, srsly"

and
"he was convinced these were the recent dead"
"because he's an idiot?"

Sonics2k

I loved Capaldi in this episode. He was brilliant. A complete bástard at times, but still very much the good guy.
Even though Clara does betray him, he is still willing to help her and actually admits he does care about her a lot, something I don't think he's really done since Eleven.

My only wish for that opening by the volcano is that it would be real, but after Clara threw in the last key, the Doctor would just click his fingers and the door would open.

As an episode it was solid, but honestly I truly wish they'd kept the Cybermen out of the trailers all over TV and social media. It ruined the surprise for me because I knew what they'd be the whole time. It would have been a million times more mind-blowing if it had been a surprise.

Missy as the Master, well I have no real issue with it. She does look a bit like a psychopathic lizard, but I'm okay with that as she seemed quite solid, a nice cross between John Simm and Anthony Ainley from what I saw. The Master as a female, well it's not really a big deal to me. I'm curious to know how the Master got out of the Time War though, and it didn't surprise me she believe the Doctor abandoned her.

Overall, as an episode it was one of the better ones of the season. Capaldi shined in the role, Clara was a bit more acceptable than a few of the previous ones and even Danny Pink wasn't a complete waste of space. I still think he's a knob though.

Lastly! This is an excerpt from a conversation between the OH (who hates the show) and myself.

*Clara and Danny are on the phone at the start*
Me: "Oh god I hope they kill him off soon."
OH: "It'd be funny if he got hit by a car or something"
Me: "Naaahhhhh, that's so not in the style of the show. A ponce like him gets a grand death scene or something."
*thunk sound on the TV*
OH looks smug.
Me: "God dammit."

tommy2bad

Hard to judge this ep because it's only one half of a story. As an opening it was excellent, up to the point 'and then they woke up' That's the laziest plot device ever. What about the clicking your fingers thing, is that feature now broken on the tardis?

Shipping the Dr and the Master, god, Moffat seems to get most of his ideas from online fanfic.
Never mind, this is DrWho, we let things like that go if it's entertaining enough. This wasn't, it might be when we see the complete story so a waiting game for the full verdict. Enough stuff to keep me watching, the cybermen from cyberspace, Clara going from mad with grief to slightly unsure to kicking ass ( cos we seen that in the sneek peek) the doctor answering the 'am I a good man question'. His loyalty to Clara over all else showing it.
Now if Capaldi and Addison don't have a scene together next week their's going to be disappointment.

SimonTemplar

The reveal of the Cyberman's eyes as the design of the door windows was great but was completely ruined by the fact that they featured heavily in the trailer.

The setup on that volcano planet was great but the "it was only a dream" reveal was a huge disappointing anti-climax. It felt cheap. I wish Moffat took a risk and actually locked the Doctor out of the Tardis, and most of the episode was about the fall out from that. Also, throughout that whole scene, I was thinking that the doctor can just snap his fingers to open the door. There should have been a quick line from Clara to say that she disabled that function.

ixoy

As much as it might be fun for us longer term fans to get the Rani it would make little sense for the show to bring back a villain who was only ever in two serials, the last of which was 28 years ago. May as well have a sex-changed Meddling Monk.

It probably is the Master - there was some line before about how Time Lords always recognise each other and the Doctor is probably in denial. The Master's a lunatic so he probably distorts his own memory of the past. It could be something more but most likely not.

I'd love though if they had other previous deaths from earlier seasons as Cyberma - Cyber Adric would be particularly fitting.

Busi_Girl08

I just had a thought (and I realise I'm nitpicking and in the grand scheme of things this isn't the craziest thing that happened last night, albeit it's a bit of a plothole):

Seb explains that while Danny is dead, his soul/consciousness is still alive and linked to the body - hence the feeling cold, the "Don't Cremate me!!!" and the guy whose body was donated to science (ouch).

So if that's the case, then surely Danny should be feeling the effects of the injuries that caused his death: broken bones, head injuries, etc. Nope, just cold.

coffee_cake

I thought that was just part of the trickery since they're just uploaded to the sphere and not actually still connected

SueBoom

Really enjoyed this. It got spoiled for me last night online unfortunately. I was genuinely shocked she turned out to be The Master though, loved the reveal. I don't see the problem with it being a woman, I think that made it even less obvious who it was going to be. I could be wrong but I never really saw Moffat as the type to give into pressure from anything, especially fanfic. I would have thought Davies was more susceptible to that but that's neither here not there.

It'll be interesting to see if Moffat's pulled a fast one and it turns out not to be The Master.

Clara has HUGELY improved this series, I intensely disliked her before. I'll still be glad to see the back of her though, dying for a new companion. It's pretty difficult to take her and Pink's relationship seriously, the intensity she displayed in this episode came out of nowhere for me.

Anyway, can't wait for next week. Hour long episode!

flazio

My thoughts regarding the finger click is that it is like a keyless system on a car, you still need a key or a keycard on you to make it work.

brianon

I really like Clara but the relationship with Danny just doesn't work on screen. They are in love ? Fine. But we didn't see any of it. Their chemistry has been built off screen so I'm not feeling it. When Danny dies and Clara has a meltdown... that's fine but kinda seems outta place as we really don't have any insight into their relationship.

NyOmnishambles

I liked the "you have ipads in the afterlife" "We've got Steve Jobs" interchange

Will reserve judgement until we see the rest because you can't really judgement it on its own but it sets up next week as an all actioner

FunLover18

Das Kitty wrote: »

I dunno. A grieving control freak? I thought it was the most in character she's been in a while. She played a blinder IMO.

I also liked the Doctor's reaction. Who knows more about loss than him?

Clara's a control freak? Since when? She lives her life on a complete whim going on random adventures through space and time with discernible plans … ever

NyOmnishambles

FunLover18 wrote: »

Clara's a control freak? Since when? She lives her life on a complete whim going on random adventures through space and time with discernible plans … ever

They made a big point of it being part of he personality n the first episode of the season?

FunLover18

NyOmnishambles wrote: »

They made a big point of it being part of he personality n the first episode of the season?

I genuinely have no recollection of that and am really surprised, I've never seen her as a control freak … but then I do tend to get lost in her eyes. Which reminds me, I loved the Doctor's line about them "It's like they inflate, how do you do that?"

tommy2bad

brianon wrote: »

I really like Clara but the relationship with Danny just doesn't work on screen. They are in love ? Fine. But we didn't see any of it. Their chemistry has been built off screen so I'm not feeling it. When Danny dies and Clara has a meltdown... that's fine but kinda seems outta place as we really don't have any insight into their relationship.

To an extent your right. However we do see the bit when Clara has decided to commit to Danny, telling him everything when right in the middle of it...poor old Mr Pink gets hit by a bus. OK a car but it's the randomness of it that drives Clara past mere loss into a kind of madness. Clara's control instinct is offended and her desire to regain control is what leads to nicking the Dr and the tardis.

Best line was the psychic paper quip, Whats all this swearing? - I have anger issues! Oh and that the book the key was hidden in was the Time travelers wife. I watched it again to see if they did a evil dead type appropriate book thing.

BlitzKrieg

I enjoyed that.


Its odd that it's the second time now that the daleks have featured in a finale being dead people (In Doomsday everybody thought they were ghosts)

But I'm very glad it got explained out the way it did, I was feeling very nervous when the doctor said they were going to hell and that we were going to go the literal route. But I really liked the actual explanation and the red herring of dead people being connected to their bodies (1. I love the hit you with my shoe etc comments very much the same responses I was giving and 2. Of Course Danny feels cold, his body is in a cyber suit.)


Some thoughts running off (I'll get to missy in the end)

-Something was very clearly up with Clara at the beginning that maybe more then just trying to repair the damage from the end of the last episode. In fact looking back at the scene it does seem to be tying to hint at something bigger especially when she looks at the wall and it lists a lot of the unexplained bits of from the season so far and also the classic Impossible girl bit (let's just say this right now, impossible girl is Moffet's Bad Wolf) I suspect some time foolery from Clara setting up some way out of this (hence why she needed to talk to danny on the phone and not directly, some subsconcious decision to get him into the position to be killed)


On Mr Pink we do have some threads left hanging from earlier in the series involving danny pink (the episode with the soldier named blue who lost a brother who everyone is expecting to be pink who was introduced in the same episode) and it is an interesting episode because it was about changing the enemy from within, danny pink is now in the cybermen mainframe....hmm. His and Clara's plotline is really boring but at this point I suspect it's borderline intentional and there is something under it that is dark (Lying being another key theme of this season)


So our Lazarus happy ending if we have to suffer it and I fear we might. Danny is saved because cybermen need a living brain to operate, he's not been dead long enough for his body to decay so once missy is defeated we will get some stupid reason to pop him out of a cyberman.

Our less happy ending but still victory is danny stuck/sacrficing his cyberman version to save clara etc. Danny dies but the day is saved clara is so shook up from it all that she quits travelling with the doctor.


Thats sort of the expected routes this will take, I'm still hoping for something more substantial and we know Clara bows out at the end of this season so a big part of me wants that she bows out on something more meaningful then just leaving or being cut off from the doctor. I really want it to be almost crazy and with the little tidbits still involving her left over I'm hoping they will. And thats kind of where I'm hoping it'll come back to Missy somehow, that yes it's the master regenerated into a woman, but not because of choice, perhaps it involves Clara, she's already so firmly drilled into the doctor's past, would it be that insane that the impossible girl is tied to the master? I mean we know she has countless iterations of her throughout his timeline (and we were reminded of that this season via "Listen") and there is only one other person who has such an equally long history with the doctor.

tommy2bad

@BlitzKrieg I'v been mulling over the notion that the Master and Clara are two sides of the same coin, possibly two aspects of a split personality. However resolving this would mean redeeming the master and so removing a classic opponent for the doctor. Not going to happen. It would nicely terminate the Clara story line though, raising her to time lord and letting her head off into the sunset with Danny so the future Danny guy could happen and it could explain the Danny lookalike as a alternative time line that no longer involves Clara, my Clara. Clara has a lot of doctorish traits which this would explain.
But as I said binning a reusable villain is as likely as binning tubing or plasterboard sets in Dr Who. They tend to recycle everything.

tritium

Hoping that moffet still has a few lies left for us (given lying seems to be a theme now). Would be nice if the master was actually Missy's creepy assistant but Missy didn't realise until some big reveal.

Alternatively, given the tardis didn't seem to be able to tell they were in London maybe this is actually hell but some weird version that fits with their past experiences.

Busi_Girl08

tritium wrote: »

Hoping that moffet still has a few lies left for us (given lying seems to be a theme now). Would be nice if the master was actually Missy's creepy assistant but Missy didn't realise until some big reveal.

Alternatively, given the tardis didn't seem to be able to tell they were in London maybe this is actually hell but some weird version that fits with their past experiences.

Interesting twist, The Master, for sh!ts n giggles, hypnotises this woman into thinking she is the Master. It would also mean we'll get to see a lot more of Chris Addison! it doesn't explain the 2 hearts though

flazio

Busi_Girl08 wrote: »

Interesting twist, The Master, for sh!ts n giggles, hypnotises this woman into thinking she is the Master. It would also mean we'll get to see a lot more of Chris Addison! it doesn't explain the 2 hearts though

Maybe she still is a robot, a Tesselect for example. That fooled Amy, Rory and River into thinking it was the Doctor.

Angron

Yeah, but did they check the robot's heartbeat? I mean I know they looked for a pulse after it "died", but I can't remember them checking for one before that, cause they wouldn't have had reason to.

jasonb

tritium wrote: »

Alternatively, given the tardis didn't seem to be able to tell they were in London maybe this is actually hell but some weird version that fits with their past experiences.

This was because the NavCom was off though, right? So that Clara could pilot the Tardis with her thoughts?

J.

flazio

Angron wrote: »

Yeah, but did they check the robot's heartbeat? I mean I know they looked for a pulse after it "died", but I can't remember them checking for one before that, cause they wouldn't have had reason to.

Yes but when the Tesselect was a Nazi, it gave Rory a full set of vitals.

Doctor DooM

Quite enjoyed the episode but also kind of hoping that Moffat has one more lie left in him. I'd love another Timelord.

pixelburp

I just realised I've written a wall of text, but there you go, that's finales for you.

Disregarding the big reveal for a tick, that was a quite a dark, macabre episode. I was very glad Moffat didn't commit to the afterlife concept, as that would have blown continuity wide open, irreversibly so, but it was still a dark topic to bring up in what's ostensibly a family/children's show. The whole season has been that touch darker in its shading, a little grislier too, but that's the most overt the concept of the Cybermen has been since their return, mixed in with some uncomfortable notions about death. The explanation behind the Nethersphere did feel earned, insofar as any Dr. Who 'science' can do (and we had seen that kind of thing before with River Song in the Library). That said, the concept could have done with a little external context: even if it's a grand masterplan to rule the world, a 'discovery' that the dead remained conscious and functioning would crack our universe in two. The entire human experience is built upon the brevity of life; to have that undercut, even for a moment, would send us spiralling out of control. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but sometimes this show is far too flippant with its use of the global threat, never quite sitting down and thinking 'hey, this could actually severely mess up the world'.

And sure while all that's going on, then Moffat throws some PTSD into the mix too: Danny the schoolteacher, all racked with guilt cos he riddled a kid with bullets during his stint as a soldier. It's one thing to zap poor Dr. Chang with a ray-gun and see some showy FX, it's quite another to have a main character shoot dead a child (though it was so artfully done it was never quite explicitly said - I imagine there were awkward questions asked in some households). There's a disconnect between the world of the fantastic and the immediate threats our own world contains, I think that's the first time Who has just ... shot someone.

Character wise, Capaldi played a blinder, as he has done since the first episode. His one-liners are gold and I've definitely got the sense throughout that the writers have enjoyed penning his lines. His dialogue with Clara was also pretty brilliantly balanced: always harsh, stern and critical, but ultimately cared about his friends and companions, willing to go to hell for them:
"Do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference?"

Beautifully put. Clara's moments were pretty epic themselves, even if her declaration of love felt a little sudden; her relationship with Danny still seemed quite playful and innocent, with no real suggestion of it being a love for the ages. Still, it was good stuff to see her take control (or at least, think she had), and the scene of her pleading with Danny was heartbreaking, subtly underlining how Danny was indeed 'just' a data fragment, incapable of remembering an emotional detail.

The direction was also praiseworthy: it's an awful shame the BBC have to publicise this show so aggressively because little touches like the doors in the shape of Cybermen eyes were fantastic. Otherwise there were some great shots, making good use of what was, in effect, a story with three new locations (insert my usual grumble about budget restrictions here) and two side characters.

So, yeah then. The reveal. The Master returns and it's official I guess: Time Lords can swap genders. And no, I didn't like it. I wasn't a fan of Michelle Gomez's demented portrayal in the first place, and the realisation it was the Master just felt cheap, a gimmick that inevntiably re-opens the door of the Doctor becoming a woman. There are few enough male TV rolemodels that aren't alpha-male douchebags using physicality and violence to win the day, few that embrace compassion and science as a strength, it'd be a shame if the Doctor stopped being one of them.

T-Bird

Was there another story at the start with Clara and all the post its? Is she the puppet master?

Busi_Girl08

T-Bird wrote: »

Was there another story at the start with Clara and all the post its? Is she the puppet master?

Nope. That was just Clara finally summoning the gumption to tell Danny everything about her and the doctor.