Surface mounted cable

Bpmull

Basically without going into it too much an old house quite big 3 stories the house itself is turned into apartments. The electrics are not too bad really but still typical old house. Basically the apartments themselves have smoke alarms not wired in. The plan is to put in 4 wired interconnected smoke alarms in the corridors one each floor and then 4-5 emergency bulkhead lights. So the plan is run a 1.5 T+E cable and single brown 1.5 (interconnection) looped around for the smoke alarms and then a separate 1.5 T+E cable around to the emergency lights and put two 6 amp MCB's one for each circuit in the board. Now the main issue is running the cables it's not possible to put the cables in walls so they will be completely service mounted as it is the main wall where the electrical boards are there is cables clipped along the wall and that's the plan for these cables but then when they are going up walls or across ceiling to the alarms etc they will be in white plastic conduit which is clipped to the ceiling.

While I know the above is not the most ideal way to do it there isn't thousands to be spent on fancy fire alarms metal conduits fire cable which I'm not going to argue would be the better plan. But as I've said it's an old house and not like its a new build. So basically this is a kind of inbetween in which anything is better than nothing. But basically is it ok to surface mount cables like this or is it seriously not advised without using metal conduit. Or can anyone see any other major issue with the above I know it's not perfect but surly having functional smoke alarms and emergency lighting is better than nothing. Also I'm aware of the reci and needing and reci contractor and all that. Any thoughts or advice appreciated.

2011

There is no regulation stating that cabling can not be surface run. It may not look aesthetically pleasing, but that is your choice.

Emergency lighting works on the principle that if a local lighting circuit fails then the emergency lighting for that area will switch on. This is normally achieved by feeding the emergency lights from local lighting circuits. What a designer is trying to avoid is lighting lost in any given area and the emergency lighting not activating because the feed to the emergency lights in that area is still functioning. This is why I would think that your two lightning circuit idea may be flawed. You will also need a to install central test unit or some way of testing the emergency lighting to ensure that it is properly functioning going forward.

I would imagine that the fire officer may have an issue with your "better than nothing" approach. Cutting corners with life safety systems can result in fatalities and/or prosecution.

Bite the bullet and pay for a proper fire alarm system and proper emergency lighting.
I would suggest a full fire alarm system for the building as well as the standard standalone domestic smoke and heat detectors in each apartment.

Electrical work should be carried out by a Registered Electrical Contractor. That means that they can be either registered with the ECSSA or RECI.

mikeyjames9

Bpmull wrote: »

While I know the above is not the most ideal way to do it there isn't thousands to be spent on fancy fire alarms metal conduits fire cable which I'm not going to argue would be the better plan

isn't there thousands being paid in rent,seriously though don't you need certs and fire panel etc tor that work now?

surface trunking is safer than buried cables

if you were running the emergency bulkheads off one 6amp circuit you would need to check that all the hallway lighting is done the same way so the emergencies will operate correctly

Bpmull

Without going into to much detail it not my house it's a relations rented house. They wanted to make some effort into putting up fire alarms and emergency lighting with minimum cost. The house itself is in an extremely bad area it is low rent accommodation to the extreme and tbh if a full fire system was put in the fire panel would probably be robbed of the wall within a week. The house 200 years old and had been apartments for probably 40 years so it's not like they were turned into apartments this year and corners were cut in terms of regulations.

Anyway back to it. Good point about the emergency lights. Unfortunately it's not possible to feed the emergency lights of the corridor lights as it's older wiring so no permanent live at the light. So in this case would the best thing to do would be to run around the circuit to all the emergency lights and then feed that of the mcb that feeds the corridor circuit ? Then just still have the smoke alarms on the separate 6 amp mcb. Thanks for the help and as I've said I have told the owner about regulations and pushed getting the fire panel, smoke alarms, heat detectors, fire tough cable, metal conduit. They've even got a quote for that work but it's just not going to happen its grand putting in all these system when your getting a grand a month rent per apartment but that's just not the case. But as I said I'm under no allusions as to what is the right way it should be done.

As for the fire of officer well surly they'll be a lot less fcuked if he calls and they prove that they made a genuine effort. And the guy who quoted on the fire panel system even stated that with a house so old he wouldn't have thought that full current regulations would have to be met that they were for recent brand new house/ apartments.

mikeyjames9

Bpmull wrote: »

Without going into to much detail it not my house it's a relations rented house. They wanted to make some effort into putting up fire alarms and emergency lighting with minimum cost. The house itself is in an extremely bad area it is low rent accommodation to the extreme and tbh if a full fire system was put in the fire panel would probably be robbed of the wall within a week. The house 200 years old and had been apartments for probably 40 years so it's not like they were turned into apartments this year and corners were cut in terms of regulations.

Anyway back to it. Good point about the emergency lights. Unfortunately it's not possible to feed the emergency lights of the corridor lights as it's older wiring so no permanent live at the light. So in this case would the best thing to do would be to run around the circuit to all the emergency lights and then feed that of the mcb that feeds the corridor circuit ? Then just still have the smoke alarms on the separate 6 amp mcb. Thanks for the help and as I've said I have told the owner about regulations and pushed getting the fire panel, smoke alarms, heat detectors, fire tough cable, metal conduit. They've even got a quote for that work but it's just not going to happen its grand putting in all these system when your getting a grand a month rent per apartment but that's just not the case. But as I said I'm under no allusions as to what is the right way it should be done.

As for the fire of officer well surly they'll be a lot less fcuked if he calls and they prove that they made a genuine effort. And the guy who quoted on the fire panel system even stated that with a house so old he wouldn't have thought that full current regulations would have to be met that they were for recent brand new house/ apartments.

you wire the ELs back to the distribution board where the lights are fed from

Bpmull

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

you wire the ELs back to the distribution board where the lights are fed from

Ok but still have a seperate mcb for the emergency lights just ensuring its feed of the same board as the corridor lights.

jeepers101

Bpmull wrote: »

Ok but still have a seperate mcb for the emergency lights just ensuring its feed of the same board as the corridor lights.

Yeah won't work as well but it's still okay to do it that way.

2011

Bpmull wrote: »

Ok but still have a seperate mcb for the emergency lights just ensuring its feed of the same board as the corridor lights.

No.

It must be the same MCB or they won't work!
Remember when you switch off a lighting MCB the emergency lights in the area served by the normal lighting must activate.
If not power loss of lights on an escape route will result in that area being unlit.

2011

Bpmull wrote: »

They wanted to make some effort into putting up fire alarms and emergency lighting with minimum cost.

That is completely irrelevant.
As it happens I prefer smaller bills myself :rolleyes:

The house itself is in an extremely bad area it is low rent accommodation to the extreme and tbh if a full fire system was put in the fire panel would probably be robbed of the wall within a week.

Again, irrelevant.
This does not give a landlord a right to ignore regulations or immunity from prosecution.
The law will value the lives of the lower paid pensants just as much as higher earners living in more exclusive areas.

The house 200 years old and had been apartments for probably 40 years so it's not like they were turned into apartments this year and corners were cut in terms of regulations.

So the building is more likely to be a fire hazard due to "corners being cut" and your relations want to gunter in emergency lighting and a fire alarm system so that they can save a few bob? :eek:

Unfortunately it's not possible to feed the emergency lights of the corridor lights as it's older wiring so no permanent live at the light.

Emergency lights are not fed from the permanent at a light. If they were it would not be possible to install a central test unit.

would the best thing to do would be to run around the circuit to all the emergency lights and then feed that of the mcb that feeds the corridor circuit ?

Yes, emergency lights should be fed from the same MCB as the lights in the area that they are covering.

I have told the owner about regulations and pushed getting the fire panel, smoke alarms, heat detectors, fire tough cable, metal conduit.

Metal conduit is just one option, you are not compelled to use it.
Sufficient mechanical protection must be provided, it is likely that PVC conduit can be used.
This would be far cheaper and can look surprisingly neat if installed with a bit of care and attention.
It is likely that much of the fire alarm cabling can be clipped with no conduit or mini trunking.

jeepers101

2011 wrote: »

No.

It must be the same MCB or they won't work!
Remember when you switch off a lighting MCB the emergency lights in the area served by the normal lighting must activate.
If not power loss of lights on an escape route will result in that area being unlit.

With respect 2011, I don't believe this is a necessity. While it would no doubt result in a safer installation, it is acceptable to run the emergency lights on their own circuit.

Think of a retrofit on a premises with 10-20 different lighting circuits. Rather than run 10-20 new permanent feeds (and having to loop them again if using maintained fittings) you could just install a new non-maintained emergency lighting circuit.

I'm not saying its an ideal solution but it is permitted.

mikeyjames9

jeepers101 wrote: »

With respect 2011, I don't believe this is a necessity. While it would no doubt result in a safer installation, it is acceptable to run the emergency lights on their own circuit.

Think of a retrofit on a premises with 10-20 different lighting circuits. Rather than run 10-20 new permanent feeds (and having to loop them again if using maintained fittings) you could just install a new non-maintained emergency lighting circuit.
'
I'm not saying its an ideal solution but it is permitted.

I'd be very surprised if that were true

Bpmull

Thanks everyone for the advice. I appreciate it. Look I understand people concern and I wasn't expecting anyone to a agree with the above as I know myself it's not the correct way to do it. But as it is it's either do the above or nothing will be done with house. I know it's sad that it won't meet regulations but that's just the way it is.

As bad as it all sound there was a reci Electricien out last year who tested and certified the electrics in the house and he didn't find anything dangerous in the apartments or else he wouldn't of given Certs. He was talking about the emergency light and fire alarm and obviously talked about meeting current regulations but then also said that in his opinion it wouldn't be needed to fully meet. But by the sounds of all the above posts it sounds like they should be met.

2011

jeepers101 wrote: »

While it would no doubt result in a safer installation, it is acceptable to run the emergency lights on their own circuit.

No it is not for non-maintained emergency lighting system.
It is unlikely that the OP should consider another type of emergency lighting system.

Have a read of this. Here is an extract:

DESIGN OBJECTIVE
BS 5266, when referring to the provision of Escape Lighting in section 4.2, requires that when the supply to all or part of the normal lighting in occupied premises fails, escape lighting is required to fulfil the following function:
(a) To indicate clearly and unambiguously the escape routes.
(b) To provide illumination along such routes to allow safe movement towards and through the exits provided.
(c) To ensure that fire alarm call points and fire fighting equipment provided along escape routes can be readily located.
(d) To permit operations concerned with safety measures.

The above is from a BS standard and we are working to the IS3217:2013 but the fundamentals are the same.

Take a look at the part in bold and ask yourself how you can ensure that the emergency lighting will activate if the emergency lighting circuit remains intact?
This could mean loss of normal lighting and no emergency lighting along an escape route.

These parts of the above link summarises it nicely:

Non-maintained luminaires must be activated by failure of supply to the normal lighting. They must therefore be connected an unswitched live taken from the local normal lighting final circuit.

The supply for self contained luminaires should be taken from the unswitched local light source

jeepers101 wrote: »

Think of a retrofit on a premises with 10-20 different lighting circuits. Rather than run 10-20 new permanent feeds (and having to loop them again if using maintained fittings) you could just install a new non-maintained emergency lighting circuit.

I am not saying that it is always easy to implement, regulations are not always designed so that they are easy to follow. I have worked on installations where phase failure relays are used so that emergency lighting will activate in the event of different circuits failing, although compliant it is not that common (also an expensive option).

There are other way of dealing with this:
1) Use maintained emergency lighting, that way the emergency lighting is illuminated during normal operation. Naturally lamp life is significantly reduced are running costs are increased.

2) Use sustained emergency lighting. Sustained emergency lighting refers to a single light fitting is essentially 2 lights within on unit. One lamp is powered via a ballast, choke or transformer, while the other lamp is powered through the use of the inverter and battery. The emergency lamp is only lit when an emergency situation occurs, and the standard lamp is only lit when the normal supply power is available. This would require a bit more wiring and expense.

jeepers101 wrote: »

I'm not saying its an ideal solution but it is permitted.

Can you provide a link to support this?

Bpmull

What being considered now is as before with the smoke alarms but it go into each apartment with and put a heat detector in each kitchen. The apartments are tiny kitchen living in one room bedroom bathroom other room. So this way you would have 4 smoke alarms in corridor outside each apartment and 3 heat detectors one in each apartment all interlinked with a cable.

So the next issue is using a 1.5 T+E cable I'm thinking about voltage drops and max cable run length I know how to do voltage drop calculations as we done then in college but I'm not sure how much current these alarms draw but I'm thinking it's obviously a very small amount. Total run your probably looking at 60-70m absolutely max and probably closer to 55m. So would 7 detectors on one 6 amp mcb using a 1.5 t+e for circuit and single 1.5mm brown for interconnector with 55m run lenght be ok. Surly voltage drop isn't an issue with such low current being drawn.

2011

Bpmull wrote: »

Look I understand people concern and I wasn't expecting anyone to a agree with the above as I know myself it's not the correct way to do it.

If you know it is not correct then my advice is not to get involved for obvious reasons.

As bad as it all sound there was a reci Electricien out last year who tested and certified the electrics in the house and he didn't find anything dangerous in the apartments or else he wouldn't of given Certs.

That is a positive.

He was talking about the emergency light and fire alarm and obviously talked about meeting current regulations but then also said that in his opinion it wouldn't be needed to fully meet.

I think that an insurance company and a judge would take a very dim view of this.

I'm thinking about voltage drops and max cable run length

The volt drop is a function of the current drawn. As the current drawn is very low the voltage drop will be minuscule, therefore long cable runs on 1.5mm sq. are possible.

You do realise that a small fire alarm panel is quite cheap?
I have not installed a fire alarm system is quite some time, but from memory the fire detection cables do not have to be fire rated, only the sounder circuits have to be fire rated.

mikeyjames9

if you start wiring smoke alarms into the apartments

well, at that stage you'd be better off just getting a fire panel

Bpmull

So for a a small fire panel what kind of cost am I looking at. The problem is does a fire mean getting specialists in to set it up and all that not just a plug and play job really. Basically about a year ago a specialist quoted 1500 to supply a panel and wire in the smoke heads and that wasn't supplying cable or conduit and all that would have to be done before they came. But surly wiring it with non fire tough cable in plastic conduit would be just as against regulation as not using the panel at all. Anyone any links to typical smaller panels. Are the panel your talking about addressable smoke detectors and all that.

Tbh the reason I don't know much about this is the electrical contractor I worked with only done commerical large jobs no houses. So I've spent plenty of time wiring smoke detectors but it was all metal conduit fire tough cable, 100s of heads big fire panels. But even the experienced Electriciens wouldn't set the panels up a specialist came into too that. So basically what kind of systems are you talking about when your saying they would cost huge money. Thanks for the help and advice so far.

jeepers101

2011 wrote: »

Can you provide a link to support this?

No I can't. Thought I read it before. Obviously I am mistaken.

I have seen it done this way in at least 50 sites that I have been on. Not new builds but older buildings with emergency lighting added during a refit. Crazy to think there are that many (and probably countless more) in breach of the regs.

Thanks for the clarification 2011.

2011

Bpmull wrote: »

So for a a small fire panel what kind of cost am I looking at.

I have not bought one years. I am going to guess under €300

The problem is does a fire mean getting specialists in to set it up and all that not just a plug and play job really.

Unless it is a very large building an addressable system is not necessary so there is no programming. Very simple to set up, a specialist just needs to inspect, certify (which I would expect will cost very little if they are awarded the maintenance contract).

Basically about a year ago a specialist quoted 1500 to supply a panel and wire in the smoke heads and that wasn't supplying cable or conduit and all that would have to be done before they came.

Shop around.

But surly wiring it with non fire tough cable in plastic conduit would be just as against regulation as not using the panel at all.

Why? Look around you, fire alarm cables are often just clipped direct to the wall. They are only 24VDC after all.
Fire rated cable is required for the sounder cables to ensure that they keep power onto the sounders while the building os on fire.
If a detection cable fails (because it melts in a fire) this will simply set the alarm off (fail safe system). Once the sounders activate the sounder loop has done its job, you don't care what happens to the cable after that (the building is on fire so you have bigger problems).

Granted the norm is to use fire rated cables for everything, but I am making suggestions to keep the cost down (while still complying).

Anyone any links to typical smaller panels.

Here is a 4 zone conventional panel.

Are the panel your talking about addressable smoke detectors and all that.

No, as above trying to keep the price down and it is a small building (I guess).

Tbh the reason I don't know much about this is the electrical contractor I worked with only done commerical large jobs no houses. So I've spent plenty of time wiring smoke detectors but it was all metal conduit fire tough cable, 100s of heads big fire panels.

Typically this is how they are done, and I agree that this would be a better job.

But even the experienced Electriciens wouldn't set the panels up a specialist came into too that.

For a start, they can't certify them (not registered to).
The more advanced addressable fire alarm panels are more complex as each detection point needs to be addressed and a location / description ID programmed. As systems get more complex they require all sorts of fancy things such as a cause and effect matrix. We are talking about a different and far more simple animal in this case.

2011

jeepers101 wrote: »

I have seen it done this way in at least 50 sites that I have been on. Not new builds but older buildings with emergency lighting added during a refit.

Perhaps they were sustained or maintained emergency lights?
On the other hand I have seen plenty of non compliant emergency lighting and fire alarm systems.

Sometimes emergency lighting systems a comply in very strange ways. For example I worked in a facility that had clean rooms. All lights in these areas (hundreds of them) were emergency lights as they were all UPS backed.

Bpmull

@2011 your post is quiet interesting above. I didn't realise they could be got for around that money. So how exactly does it work. You would have the panel at the front door running of a spur I assume. Then what way are they wired is it just a single cable like a 1.5 t+e cable looped around to all the smoke heads and heat detectors. So is it just one circuit. Would a simple panel like this be easy to connect up and wire up or will it be a case of switching it on and having to do a lot of messing around with it to clear faults and get it to recognise the detector.

Just looking at that panel above it looks surprising simple I've never seen them that basic so is it a circuit in each zone ie an apartment is a zone. There are 5 apartments and then stairs corridors between them all. So would I need 5 zones then I'm guessing you can only get 6 zone ones. I think you've definitely convinced me it's the way to go. Are the actual smoke / detectors big money for these panels. Would it be worth putting the odd break glass in again are they a huge cost to buy. Sorry for all the question you have been very helpful.

mikeyjames9

the problem then is that if you make the step from a few interconnected alarms
to a fire panel

well then you're as well to get the whole thing designed and commissioned properly

otherwise you won't have any paperwork for your system for insurance and whatever else and it probably won't be safe or compliant with the latest IS standard

if heard talk about using t+e for detector but never seen it done in practice
there may be issues with screening and compliance

2011

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

well then you're as well to get the whole thing designed and commissioned properly

Designing is a matter of reading the regulations. For a small building it is not complicated. There is very little in commissioning a small conventional fire alarm system.

otherwise you won't have any paperwork for your system for insurance and whatever else and it probably won't be safe or compliant with the latest IS standard

You will have to get a specialised contractor to certify.

heard talk about using t+e for detector but never seen it done in practice
there may be issues with screening and compliance

With proper segregation a screen is not required. Remember this is not an analogue signal (it works on the same principle as an intruder alarm with an end of line resistor).

As I said in my earlier post "from memory" the detection cable does not have to be fire rated. It would be worth checking and may have changed since. This is not the type of work that I normally do anymore.

Bpmull

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

the problem then is that if you make the step from a few interconnected alarms
to a fire panel

well then you're as well to get the whole thing designed and commissioned properly

otherwise you won't have any paperwork for your system for insurance and whatever else and it probably won't be safe or compliant with the latest IS standard

if heard talk about using t+e for detector but never seen it done in practice
there may be issues with screening and compliance

They actually emailed me the quote they got from one of these fire panel crowds. Basically it was 1850 euro that was supplying alarm all detectors and sounder etc as well as commissioning it. But also in that email it said the things that had to be done before this guy came to do the installation he wanted steel surface mounted conduit everywhere with relevant steel boxes where the detectors were going. It also had to be fully wired in fire enhanced cable and basically be just ready for them to wire in the heads. So basically then your back to square one putting 3-4k euro in smoke alarm system.

So my biggest problem is the panels that 2011 were showing look great but by the looks of it no ones going to certify one with standard cable clipped that's not in metal conduit going to all the detectors. Seems just like a complete vicious circle to me.

2011

What you need to do is familiarize yourself with the regulations. Once you can demonstrate that the system is compliant then you can stand your ground and negotiate a reasonable price. I did the before in a resteraunt and got the system certified for small money.

mikeyjames9

2011 wrote: »

What you need to do is familiarize yourself with the regulations. Once you can demonstrate that the system is compliant then you can stand your ground and negotiate a reasonable price. I did the before in a resteraunt and got the system certified for small money.

hardly worth the bother of trying to familiarize yourself with the exact IS:3218 standards

you pay someone to design the system

one mistake on design would wipe out any prospective savings

Bpmull

2011 wrote: »

What you need to do is familiarize yourself with the regulations. Once you can demonstrate that the system is compliant then you can stand your ground and negotiate a reasonable price. I did the before in a resteraunt and got the system certified for small money.

Where would I be able to see the regulations for fire alarms. In general what would be expect in each apartment 3 are two bed which consists of a kitchen come living room I'm thinking one heat detector here. Then there is a tiny metre square hall area with a bedroom door left and right so would one smoke alarm suffice in that metre square hall or does each bedroom need one inside it. Would ever apartment need a break glass in it. Then corridors well more stairwell than anything a smoke alarm outside each apartment door. Seperate laundry room smoke alarm there. Do I need a break glass outside every apartment door too. Finally the sounder can that just go near the panel or does it need to go on each floor. It's effectively just ground first second floor and one big stairs linking each floor it kind of all open so it's not seperate levels as such. So basically each floor consists of a tiny landing and door into apartment that's it. Would I need something outside the building ie a flashing red light.

Obviously I know no one can tell me what I need as they haven't seen the house but if I could get answers to some of the above at least I can get my own head around it. Thanks again you've really been unbelievably helpful and I really appreciate that.

2011

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

hardly worth the bother of trying to familiarize yourself with the exact IS:3218 standards

you pay someone to design the system

one mistake on design would wipe out any prospective savings

I did it before. I learnt most of the regulations by installing fire alarm systems (as per the issued drawings) while working for a large electrical contractor.
Not that hard to design a fire alarm system for a small building.

mikeyjames9

OP

either fit the basic interconnected alarms in the hallways only...your choice if you decide to do that


if you decide to wire into the apartments well then fit a panel, but have it comply with IS 3218 and certified

it not worth spending the $$$ if you don't have the paperwork and the standards to go with it

Bpmull

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

OP

either fit the basic interconnected alarms in the hallways only...your choice if you decide to do that


if you decide to wire into the apartments well then fit a panel, but have it comply with IS 3218 and certified

it not worth spending the $$$ if you don't have the paperwork and the standards to go with it

Were going to look into the proper fire panel and I think that what will be fitted. My biggest issue is going to get someone to certify it. I can figure out where the detectors break glasses should go. But my biggest issue is that the wiring will become an issue when surface mounted become an issue with the certification. As the quote from the fire expert they got said that fire enhanced cable had to be used with 100 % mechanical protection in steel conduit. I'm fairly handy at steel conduit god knows I spent enough time at it but the cost of buying it and fire tough cable would be the issue as well as the extra time it would take.

I think I have them convinced to go down the fire panel route provided the materials cost can be kept under the grand mark. So I really appreciate the serious amount of advice that's been given out on this thread.

mikeyjames9

i would get a 2nd opinion on the steel conduit,i doubt you need that level of mechanical protection in an apartment block

surface pvc trunking/conduit and even some small tray should suffice to contain the fire cables

the heads can prob be mounted on steel boxes and the cables glanded in


waste of time spending the money unless it's done to the IS standard and certified as you'd prob find you'll need the paperwork eventually for insurance or landlord registaration purposes