Difficulties finding a cocker spaniel pup which I can take to shows

Karen91

Hi everyone,

I have been looking into getting another dog for some time now, a few weeks ago I posted a thread about getting a dog that would intimidate intruders but I have decided against this.

The plan with the second dog is that I would like to take it to shows. I am interested in English Cocker Spaniels. I am looking for a female pup, my idea was that if she did well in the show ring I would breed a litter from her with the view of keeping two pups for myself. I am not a back yard breeder I am more interested in shows than breeding. I have put alot of time and research into it. I have discussed the relevant health checks to be done on both dog and bitch before breeding from them along with everything else a responsible breeder should research in advance, I wanted to know what I would be getting myself into. I have researched shows also and I am aware the time and effort that goes into it but its somethin I have been interested in since I was very young.

The problem is I was put in contact with two breeders, who were prepared to sell me a pup when they had one available but they wanted a contract signed that the dog would not be shown or could not be used for breeding. Its very frustrating. Is this the case with every breeder of show quality dogs? I appreciate people who breed dogs responsibly but its also unfair that I cannot pursue something I hvae been interested in for so long, as I said before I am more interested in shows and if the dog had a genetic health issue or did not do well in the show ring I would have her spayed.

Has anyone had the same problem with these breeders? Do these breeders of show quality dogs usually stop people from showing pups they have bred?

Primus Pilus

I hate to say it but showing and breeding can be a very exclusive club. The reason for a contract stating the animal will not be shown is because in the eyes of the breeder, the animal does not meet the breed standard in some way. This protect the breeders reputation and limits the amount of registered animals available to breed.


Generally only one or two or maybe no animals in a litter will be show quality (ie meet the strict breed guidelines) hence why most are sold on a no-show pet policy. In my experience, breeders will sell show quality animals, but don't expect to pay no-show prices. Think at least double to 4-5 times what a no-show dog will cost.

If you really want a show quality animal with breeding rights, you are going to have wait till a breeder has one for sale. I would inquire with all the registered breeders in your area, about planned litters and let them know your criteria.

Lemlin

I have no interest in it myself but I have been told that the show circuit moves in circles which are hard to get into.

I have never heard of contracts having to be signed re no breeding or showing. I have however seen contracts insisting on a minimum price if a litter is bred from a dog in the future. The mimimum price stipulated on a Labrador contract I saw was €650 to ensure the breeder's line was not devalued.

Knine

I show & breed dogs. It is not difficult at all to get into. However it is difficult to get/ breed a dog good enough to win. Technically anyone with a registered dog can show but actually doing well with the dog is another story. I put a huge amount of work into my dogs. If I breed a top show prospect then I am likely to keep it or let it go to someone who has previously shown dogs.

I would also endorse the litter as not for breeding as I don't want people using them as breeding machines or to try & make money on the back of all my hard work.

Your idea seems great but the reality is that it is not so simple. It takes years of carefully studying pedigrees, dogs etc to breed really good dogs. I'm in the game 18 years! English Cocker Spaniels are not a good breed to start off with unless you have fantastic grooming skills as they require an awful lot of grooming/ trimming. If you don't have these skills then even a fabulous dog can look crap.

Your best bet is to buy a top quality dog off one of these breeders & stop worrying about breeding. Get yourself into the show ring & gain many years of experiece of tge breed, go to seminars etc.

ShaShaBear

I have come across many situations where both contracts were in place, but more often the breeding one than the show one. Breeders who fully value the quality of their dogs at show level will likely keep the pup that is of show quality, and the rest are sold as intended to be family pets. These people usually only ever breed an outstanding bitch with the sole intention of getting outstanding puppies, that are perfect examples of the breed. When they have selected the puppy, or in rare cases puppies, that are likely to walk in their mother's pawprints, the rest are sold with the promise that they won't be bred from (WAY too many people will get a purebred bitch puppy and start getting them covered at the first heat in the hopes that they will have a huge litter of €€€s). The breeder also selects from the finest of male studs that have received full health checks and they know the resulting litter will be as genetically perfect as possible. There are no guarantees that you will do, or know how to do the same, so they protect themselves and their pups.
As for the showing, I imagine it's because they only want dogs that they know will excel with their name attached to them in show. Wouldn't do well for their reputation if a constantly losing dog from one of their litters was the talk of the IKC :pac:

Karen91

Thanks for the helpul replies Of course I have seen many IKC Cocker Spaniel puppies advertised but the likely hood is they would not do well in the show ring. I understand why these contracts are in place the breeding in particular of course there are people outhere who will breed litter after litter just for cash gain.

Does anyone know the strings attached to importing a dog because if I could find a breeder in the UK I would import one.

Knine

Karen91 wrote: »

Thanks for the helpul replies Of course I have seen many IKC Cocker Spaniel puppies advertised but the likely hood is they would not do well in the show ring. I understand why these contracts are in place the breeding in particular of course there are people outhere who will breed litter after litter just for cash gain.

Does anyone know the strings attached to importing a dog because if I could find a breeder in the UK I would import one.

A reputable breeder in the UK will have the same strings attached. Do you know how to show trim a Cocker? It is actually a fine art. If you don't then you would be much better off buying a dog here & at least you would have support from the breeder.

If you had approached me for a puppy, no way would I sell you a pup with potential to use for breeding. However if you brought the pup, it turned out well & you spent time learning about the breed, then I would consider lifting that endorsement. Cockers are very popular & the standard in Ireland is extremely high. It would be very difficult for you to start out breeding winners when there are people years in the breed.

Your best bet would be to keep doing your research, then head to Crufts in March which is less then an hour from Dublin Airport. There you will meet fabulous quality dogs & breeders. The same will apply though regarding endorsements.

Personally though for starting off showing, there are easier breeds.

Karen91

Knine wrote: »

A reputable breeder in the UK will have the same strings attached. Do you know how to show trim a Cocker? It is actually a fine art. If you don't then you would be much better off buying a dog here & at least you would have support from the breeder.

If you had approached me for a puppy, no way would I sell you a pup with potential to use for breeding. However if you brought the pup, it turned out well & you spent time learning about the breed, then I would consider lifting that endorsement. Cockers are very popular & the standard in Ireland is extremely high. It would be very difficult for you to start out breeding winners when there are people years in the breed.

Your best bet would be to keep doing your research, then head to Crufts in March which is less then an hour from Dublin Airport. There you will meet fabulous quality dogs & breeders. The same will apply though regarding endorsements.

Personally though for starting off showing, there are easier breeds.

I understand theres an endorsment with breeding but the people I spoke to would not even consider lifting it because they did not want me showing it either.

Yes I am heading to Crufts in March, I have my tickets booked and everything. As regards show clipping a cocker I have no idea and of course its something I would have to learn and yes would be a lot better if I found a breeder here.

Are there breeds you would reccomend for someone who would be starting off in shows? I don't want a large breed. Medium to small is my preference. I will take all advice I can get, I do not want to get a breed I cannot manage.

Knine

Honestly I think you will find a Cocker's coat hard to manage if you are just starting off. I recommend you go to a few Irish Shows also. There is one at Cloghran on November the 15th. I am judging at it. Have a look at the breeds that interest you. Talk to the breeders after they are finished showing. Also there is the Pets Expo in the RDS. A lot of people at the canine stands will also be show people. I will have my dogs there. I sold a dog to a guy starting off last year. He is doing really well with hus dog. Contracts with dogs not for showing are not as common as breeding restrictions. There are lots of reputable breeders who are happy to see new people coming into the breed.

Easier breeds to start off with would be dogs that don't require loads of grooming i.e. short coated. Suggestions might be some of the smooth terrier breeds - Jack Russells, Smooth Fox Terrier, staffie etc, then there is whippets, min pins, Dachshunds smooth, Beagles, Basset Hound, Pugs etc.

Of course it has to be a dog that fits into your circumstances.

Karen91

Knine wrote: »

Honestly I think you will find a Cocker's coat hard to manage if you are just starting off. I recommend you go to a few Irish Shows also. There is one at Cloghran on November the 15th. I am judging at it. Have a look at the breeds that interest you. Talk to the breeders after they are finished showing. Also there is the Pets Expo in the RDS. A lot of people at the canine stands will also be show people. I will have my dogs there. I sold a dog to a guy starting off last year. He is doing really well with hus dog. Contracts with dogs not for showing are not as common as breeding restrictions. There are lots of reputable breeders who are happy to see new people coming into the breed.

Easier breeds to start off with would be dogs that don't require loads of grooming i.e. short coated. Suggestions might be some of the smooth terrier breeds - Jack Russells, Smooth Fox Terrier, staffie etc, then there is whippets, min pins, Dachshunds smooth, Beagles, Basset Hound, Pugs etc.

Of course it has to be a dog that fits into your circumstances.

Thank you for your helpful advice! I will look into Pugs also, I have a pomeranian who I groom myself and eventhough she is not a show dog her coat is a challenge to keep in top condition. I never thought about the grooming aspect of the cocker until now, I knew of course I would have to learn how to trim a show cocker but never thought about it in depth, it would be a challenge starting off perhaps. I like pugs also so I will study them more and then go to a few shows and talk to breeders.

Knine

Sure if you need any more help just give me a shout. The main issues with the coated Spitz type breeds is that they go out of coat & this can keep them out of the ring for a considerable amount of time. This also applies to the collies & some of the gundog/ hound breeds.