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Rent increase query

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  • 01-11-2014 3:45pm
    #1
    Del007
    Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭


    My lease is up on December 1st, come then I will have been here 3 years.

    After the first year's initial lease we then had a rolling month to month lease.

    Last May the landlord sent us a year long lease but they back dated it to the previous December with an increase in rent of 50 euro from May.

    They have now sent us a new year long lease starting December 1st but with an increase in rent of 150 euro.

    I believe they can't increase the rent twice in 12 months but will this apply with a new lease?

    Hope that makes sense

    Cheers for your help


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    #2
    Penny Tration
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,687 ✭✭✭✭Penny Tration


    Del007 wrote: »
    My lease is up on December 1st, come then I will have been here 3 years.

    After the first year's initial lease we then had a rolling month to month lease.

    Last May the landlord sent us a year long lease but they back dated it to the previous December with an increase in rent of 50 euro from May.

    They have now sent us a new year long lease starting December 1st but with an increase in rent of 150 euro.

    I believe they can't increase the rent twice in 12 months but will this apply with a new lease?

    Hope that makes sense

    Cheers for your help

    You're correct. They cannot increase it until 12 months have passed, so may next year.


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    #3
    Del007
    Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Del007


    green_screen wrote: »
    You're correct. They cannot increase it until 12 months have passed, so may next year.

    So what happens now that our lease is nearly up? Can they just tell us to leave instead of leaving the rent at the same price until May?


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    #4
    Beaner1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 819 ✭✭✭Beaner1


    Don't sign any lease as it gives you no benefits. Continue paying your current rent and ignore them.


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    #5
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Del007 wrote: »
    So what happens now that our lease is nearly up? Can they just tell us to leave instead of leaving the rent at the same price until May?
    You can't be told to leave now and your rent can't be raised again until May. As soon as 4 years from original lease date have passed, you can be evicted during the following 6 months without reason however.


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    #6
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    murphaph wrote: »
    You can't be told to leave now and your rent can't be raised again until May. As soon as 4 years from original lease date have passed, you can be evicted during the following 6 months without reason however.

    Im not sure that is described as eviction? eviction would be where the landlord tried to terminate the tenancy for a legitimate reason but then was forced to force the tenants out.
    I think that the landlord would be legitimately terminating the lease.
    Which the landlord could do so leading up to when the 4th year was ending.
    Even in an initial 6 months of a lease, being asked to leave isnt an eviction as such, the tenancy is just being terminated.

    Can it be done so also in the 6 months of a new 4 year period?


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    #7
    Del007
    Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Del007


    murphaph wrote: »
    You can't be told to leave now and your rent can't be raised again until May. As soon as 4 years from original lease date have passed, you can be evicted during the following 6 months without reason however.

    I presumed that the landlord could force us to move out when the lease is up


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    #8
    salamanca22
    Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭salamanca22


    They cannot increase the rent until may 2015. Once your lease is up they cannot terminate the tenancy because they have no grounds to. If they threaten this then threaten back with action from the prtb and mention illegal eviction to them. They will back off sharpish.


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    #9
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,239 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Del007 wrote: »
    I presumed that the landlord could force us to move out when the lease is up
    You have Part IV rights which override the lease.


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    #10
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    salamanca22 wrote: »
    They cannot increase the rent until may 2015. Once your lease is up they cannot terminate the tenancy because they have no grounds to. If they threaten this then threaten back with action from the prtb and mention illegal eviction to them. They will back off sharpish.

    The Op never said the landlord threatened to terminate the lease?
    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    You have Part IV rights which override the lease.

    Part 4 rights dont override the lease, part 4 rights cannot be reduced or written out in a lease, that doesnt mean other conditions of a lease dont have validity or are in conjunction to be used with part 4.


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    #11
    Del007
    Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Del007


    Am I right in saying the following?

    The landlord is unable to ask me to leave if I don't want to pay the increase in rent when my current lease is up. This is according to part 4 rights.

    According to part 4 rights I have to inform the landlord a month in advance that I wish to stay.


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    #12
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    You are entitled to four years tenancy, by then the landlord can simply provide the required notice and terminate the lease, no explanations required, they would be under no obligation to rent to you again if they didnt wish so. So come 1st december if that is 3 years completed, you are entitled to one more year if you wish.

    They can only raise the rent once a year, if they have done so as it appears, then they cannot ask for another increase within the year.

    If however they raise the rent and its been a year or more since any previous increase, its in line with what they could achieve in the market and you are inside your 4 years, they would be allowed and able to apply the increase, they could then give notice to quit if you failed to pay the increase as a breach of the tenancy agreement, so the only way to stay would be to agree to an increase, which doesnt seem to apply in your case, as the information is given in the thread.


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    #13
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Del007 wrote: »
    Am I right in saying the following?

    The landlord is unable to ask me to leave if I don't want to pay the increase in rent when my current lease is up. This is according to part 4 rights.

    According to part 4 rights I have to inform the landlord a month in advance that I wish to stay.

    The landlord is unable to ask you to leave if you do not accept the increase in rent when your current lease is up- correct.
    If you refuse the increase in rent next May 2015- when they are legally entitled to apply it- that is a different matter.

    As for your Part 4 notification if you wish to vacate the tenancy- as you have been a tenant for over 2 years- its actually 56 days- and not 1 month.......

    If there is a different period of notice specified in your lease- which is more favourable to you than your Part 4 obligations- you may avail of it- a landlord may give additional rights to a tenant in their lease, but they cannot detract from core Part 4 rights and obligations......... In this case- if your lease specifies a month's notice- give a month's notice- but if it doesn't- you have to give 56 days notice.


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    #14
    Del007
    Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Del007


    Thanks for all your advice.

    I sent them an email declaring my intent to stay, it'll be interesting to see how they reply

    Cheers again


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    #15
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    Del007 wrote: »
    Thanks for all your advice.

    I sent them an email declaring my intent to stay, it'll be interesting to see how they reply

    Cheers again

    wut?
    I didnt realise they were asking you to leave?
    and yes the landlord could force you to move when the tenancy of 4 years is up, but not before if you dont want.


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    #16
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Del007 wrote: »
    Thanks for all your advice.

    I sent them an email declaring my intent to stay, it'll be interesting to see how they reply

    Cheers again

    Sorry- you have declared your intent to stay?
    Aka- you have declared you are happy to pay the revised rent, when it comes due (when your current lease is up)?

    If you're not- you have deliberately made an obtuse declaration- which the PRTB will not look kindly on- if/when the rent (if you do not pay the higher rent) comes up for arbitration. Also- the increased rent will be back dated to the date on which it fell due- so even if there are a few months before the hearing comes up- you could be accumulating a large sum you'll have to hand over.........

    Why would you deliberately try to confuse the issue?


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    #17
    Del007
    Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Del007


    I sent them a letter declaring my intent to stay but that I would not be paying the new pay increase.

    It states here that I should notify my landlord of my intent to stay 30 days before the lease expires otherwise I may have to compensate the landlord.

    http://www.threshold.ie/advice/dealing-with-problems-during-your-tenancy/security-of-tenure/


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    #18
    Beaner1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 819 ✭✭✭Beaner1


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    Sorry- you have declared your intent to stay?
    Aka- you have declared you are happy to pay the revised rent, when it comes due (when your current lease is up)?

    If you're not- you have deliberately made an obtuse declaration- which the PRTB will not look kindly on- if/when the rent (if you do not pay the higher rent) comes up for arbitration. Also- the increased rent will be back dated to the date on which it fell due- so even if there are a few months before the hearing comes up- you could be accumulating a large sum you'll have to hand over.........

    Why would you deliberately try to confuse the issue?

    What tosh. The landlord cannot increase the rent twice in 6 months regardless of him pleading confusion.


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    #19
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    Del007 wrote: »
    I sent them a letter declaring my intent to stay but that I would not be paying the new pay increase.

    It states here that I should notify my landlord of my intent to stay 30 days before the lease expires otherwise I may have to compensate the landlord.

    http://www.threshold.ie/advice/dealing-with-problems-during-your-tenancy/security-of-tenure/

    I think you still got this wrong but getting closer,
    You declared your intent to stay, probably no harm but it was not required as you are in a part 4 lease after having been in a fixed term lease.

    I see you mean you say you wont be paying the new rent increase, Id have suggested reminding them why, but you're under no obligation, but it might clear up any backlash and cause them to look into it, ie I wont be paying the new rent increase as only one rent increase is allowed within a year, assuming you have the previous increase documented.

    It really depends to me on the increase amount and the relationship with the landlord, I wouldnt hold out hope for another lease in the property if they take a dim view of this as they can simply decline to rent to you once the tenancy has existed for 4 years, worth taking into account if you have to look for somewhere or make other moving arrangements.

    In this case the landlord has to give 112 days notice, I believe this notice can be given up to the end of the tenancy, ie up till the day before the tenancy expires, I dont think the 112 days has to be included into the existing tenancy/lease period, but it seems reasonable to expect it might be issued to incorporate the end date, but Im open to correction.


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    #20
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Beaner1 wrote: »
    What tosh. The landlord cannot increase the rent twice in 6 months regardless of him pleading confusion.

    Its not tosh. Presumably the increased rent would apply from a specified date in the future- when it would come due (I believe the OP mentioned the 1st of May).

    Sending this vague and wholly unnecessary letter to the landlord has only served to cause confusion- and I have no idea how/why the tenant choose to go down that road.

    Cerastes has given good advice- the tenant needs to send the landlord a note reminding them that a rent review occurred in May- and cannot legally happen again until May of next year (or whatever the date).

    Blithely sending a letter- 'Hi Landlord, I intend to continue the tenancy' in response to a letter from the landlord advising of an increase in the rent- is infuriating and in my eyes serves to do little- aside from cause confusion- as it has not addressed the matter being raised at all.......

    No rent review can occur until 12 months have elapsed, from the last review.

    If at this stage- the tenant decides they do not wish to pay the reviewed rent- they have to give notice of their refusal to pay the increase, alongside notice to vacate the tenancy (or they can raise a PRTB dispute- which would be arbitrated on- and if they are ruled against- they owe the higher rent from the date in the landlord's letter- providing the dates are in order).

    Printing off a letter from Threshold- thinking its a get-out-of-jail-free card- is nonsense......... The OP has advised they intend to stay in the property. They have not said anything about the rent increase- they need to do so- they can take it up with the landlord or they can lodge a PRTB case (which they would win- given 12 month's haven't elapsed)- but its nuts not to contact the landlord first.


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    #21
    Del007
    Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Del007


    Just to clear up a few things.

    I contacted the landlord saying that I intend to stay and also that a rent increase is not due until 12 months after the previous rent increase.

    The lease is up on the 1st of December and I contacted them one month in advance.


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    #22
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    Del007 wrote: »
    Just to clear up a few things.

    I contacted the landlord saying that I intend to stay and also that a rent increase is not due until 12 months after the previous rent increase.

    The lease is up on the 1st of December and I contacted them one month in advance.

    Let us know what the response is,also can you clear up by saying what the order and date of increases have been,I think there is confusion over what occurred and when on here,for clarification purposes,I'm also uncertain why people think the moths notice thing exists,in your case no notice was required from what you said in thread.


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