Sinn Féin the most popular party in latest poll (mod warnings in OP)

michael999999

mikom wrote: »

Screw the "media".
Where will they be when the bills come in?

When Fine Gael sell Irish Water to tjere favourite backer Denis o Brien, the 'media' will be the one sending the bills!

K-9

alastair wrote: »

The NI executive is a coalition government.

It clearly isn't a normal coalition like here or Tory/LibDem in the UK, Ministers are picked by the D'Hondt system and parties are basically forced to coalesce.

You can't have a Govt. in the North without the 2 biggest parties, completely different from here or the UK where it would be a Tory/Labour coalition!

Pocoyo

Was speaking to a long time FF member and he said that he knew reliably that there are major negotiations going for the formation of the next govt ongoing to facilitate a FF and FG coalition after next election to prevent SF from getting into power. The end of civil war politics may finally be at an end and the 2 cheeks of the one arse are going to reunite to **** on us collectively. The political system in this country is a joke and there is a new PD light starting up too in the Irish Democratic Party.
Between Siptu and other unions being in tow to the establishment and Deadly Dinny being in charge of the media outlets this country is nothing more than a tinpot, banana republic that protects its wealthy elite and constantly grinds and attempts to crush the ordinary people.
After yesterday the Irish people have spoken and marched. We can't and won't take anymore from these shysters and confidence tricksters. We must all unite and say " No more austerity, no more bailouts, no more stealth taxes and charges, no more." Can't pay and won't pay.

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

What, you're denying that SF are a govt partner in this financial mismanagement?

You sound like that Hannity guy shouting "Terrorist - YES or NO!". The NI power sharing executive is nothing like a FG/LB voluntary coalition and you know it, we all know it, so you can stop now.

Dan_Solo

Pocoyo wrote: »

Was speaking to a long time FF member and he said that he knew reliably that there are major negotiations going for the formation of the next govt ongoing to facilitate a FF and FG coalition after next election to prevent SF from getting into power.

Just goes to show what the establishment/golden circle parties are all about: power and nothing but power. Serving the people has f**k all to do with their mindset.

lee_baby_simms

Pocoyo wrote: »

the 2 cheeks of the one arse are going to reunite to **** on us collectively.

Beautifully put.

Good loser

Pocoyo wrote: »

Was speaking to a long time FF member and he said that he knew reliably that there are major negotiations going for the formation of the next govt ongoing to facilitate a FF and FG coalition after next election to prevent SF from getting into power. The end of civil war politics may finally be at an end and the 2 cheeks of the one arse are going to reunite to **** on us collectively. The political system in this country is a joke and there is a new PD light starting up too in the Irish Democratic Party.
Between Siptu and other unions being in tow to the establishment and Deadly Dinny being in charge of the media outlets this country is nothing more than a tinpot, banana republic that protects its wealthy elite and constantly grinds and attempts to crush the ordinary people.
After yesterday the Irish people have spoken and marched. We can't and won't take anymore from these shysters and confidence tricksters. We must all unite and say " No more austerity, no more bailouts, no more stealth taxes and charges, no more." Can't pay and won't pay.

Logically then you should look for return of FF - everything was free in their day.

Of all the options I think the most amusing would be FF and SF.

The somersaults and verbal gymnastics then would be something to behold.

Scofflaw

twowheelsgood wrote: »

I find when people say that two things are "completely different" what they mean is that they want them to be completely different but they cannot make the argument.

The scenarios certainly are different but what they both have in common, a lack of choice. Republicans had no real choice other than GFA 15 years ago and the Irish state had no real choice but to seek assistance from the Troika 5 years ago.

There are at least some dissidents who would dispute the former. Can you find a single credible voice who suggested there was an alternative to the Troika?

I don't know about credible, but you can certainly find diehard FF supporters who would argue it. We didn't need the troika, the government were fully funded for 6 months, etc.

cordially,
Scofflaw

alastair

dave ireland wrote: »

I'm not so sure , if the Irish government gets away with charging for water twice what's to stop main land Europe from trying it. I don't think the French would be happy been told there is a water tax now, even though you have already been paying for it privately for years...

Nobody is paying twice. So that puts an end to that grand notion.

alastair

K-9 wrote: »

It clearly isn't a normal coalition like here or Tory/LibDem in the UK, Ministers are picked by the D'Hondt system and parties are basically forced to coalesce.

You can't have a Govt. in the North without the 2 biggest parties, completely different from here or the UK where it would be a Tory/Labour coalition!

It's still a coalition government. And it still has to make collective decisions regarding finances/spending/economy. And you can still gauge their financial chops from how well things are going there. It's not so good.

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

It's still a coalition government.

This is a farcical point which has been explained to you in detail repeatedly.
A power sharing executive is not a voluntary coalition. You may as well say my aunt is indeed my uncle as they're both relatives of mine!

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

This is a farcical point which has been explained to you in detail repeatedly.
A power sharing executive is not a voluntary coalition. You may as well say my aunt is indeed my uncle as they're both relatives of mine!

It's a mandatory coalition, it's not the same as our coalition, but that's not the point - they can still be judged on their financial governance record within that coalition. The farce is in trying to dismiss their poor record in that government, on the back of pretending it's a different thing altogether.

Crooked Jack

alastair wrote: »

The government in NI have control over aspects of the economy and spending, and it's not been pretty.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-29562432

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ni-executive-set-to-bust-budget-over-282m-cuts-requirement-1.1949233

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/executive-s-fiscal-dishonesty-coming-home-to-roost-agnew-1-6392227

First story there is about a DUP deal, the second two are about Tory cuts that Sinn Fein have been resisting for months. If anything, Sinn Fein's performance in the north only proves that they are a party true to their word.

Crooked Jack

alastair wrote: »

It's a mandatory coalition, it's not the same as our coalition, but that's not the point - they can still be judged on their financial governance record within that coalition. The farce is in trying to dismiss their poor record in that government, on the back of pretending it's a different thing altogether.

You clearly have little or no concept of how Stormont works. This was made particularly obvious when you tried to equate the block grant with local government rates.

You simply cannot judge SF's financial performance on the financial state of the north. Not only, as it has been pointed out to you numerous times, is it not a coalition government, but the DUP have an absolute veto on anything and everything and are happy to use it just to block anything SF support purely on that basis. It's not an ordinary government, it's not ordinary politics and attempts to draw comparisons on this issue is either you betraying your own ignorance or an attempt to muddy the waters of the debate for those who arent familiar with the system in the north.

twowheelsgood

Crooked Jack wrote: »

You simply cannot judge SF's financial performance on the financial state of the north. Not only, as it has been pointed out to you numerous times, is it not a coalition government, but the DUP have an absolute veto on anything and everything and are happy to use it just to block anything SF support purely on that basis.

The argument usually made to defend SF performance in the northern executive is that they are limited in what they can do as the purse strings are controlled from London. And in this they don't differ much from us with the Troika.

As to the nature of the arrangement up there, true is is not a normal coalition, it is more akin to a national government. And while the tribal nature of the make up brings its own problems the national nature of it means it does not have some of the problems of a more conventional coalition.

In particular, there is no pressure to favour populist measures or to buy elections - your party will be in power no matter what. Surely this makes it easier to do a good job?

Banjo String

twowheelsgood wrote: »

In particular, there is no pressure to favour populist measures or to buy elections - your party will be in power no matter what. Surely this makes it easier to do a good job?

How have you arrived at this conclusion

Dan_Solo

Banjo String wrote: »

How have you arrived at this conclusion

Maybe he thinks they will always be in government because they are so popular? :-)

alastair

Crooked Jack wrote: »

You clearly have little or no concept of how Stormont works. This was made particularly obvious when you tried to equate the block grant with local government rates.

You simply cannot judge SF's financial performance on the financial state of the north. Not only, as it has been pointed out to you numerous times, is it not a coalition government, but the DUP have an absolute veto on anything and everything and are happy to use it just to block anything SF support purely on that basis. It's not an ordinary government, it's not ordinary politics and attempts to draw comparisons on this issue is either you betraying your own ignorance or an attempt to muddy the waters of the debate for those who arent familiar with the system in the north.

I can see why you would rather not associate SF with quality of financial governance in NI, but it's rather disingenuous to pretend that the DUP are the only ones employing vetoes - SF are too. The end outcome? Speaks for itself. And I never equated the block grant with regional rates, I simply pointed out that the executive have revenue sources beyond Westminster, and have the capacity to make independent decisions in that regard.

But if you prefer straw man arguments, knock yourself out.

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

I can see why you would rather not associate SF with quality of financial governance in NI, but it's rather disingenuous to pretend that the DUP are the only ones employing vetoes - SF are too. The end outcome? Speaks for itself. And I never equated the block grant with regional rates, I simply pointed out that the executive have revenue sources beyond Westminster, and have the capacity to make independent decisions in that regard.

But if you prefer straw man arguments, knock yourself out.

Get back to us with your powershare = voluntary coalition theory when all parties in The Dail have a veto alastair!
Makes you wonder why they bother when according to you these two completely different mechanisms of governance are exactly the same...

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Get back to us with your powershare = voluntary coalition theory when all parties in The Dail have a veto alastair!
Makes you wonder why they bother when according to you these two completely different mechanisms of governance are exactly the same...

I never said that the NI executive was a voluntary coalition, I said it was a coalition. Do try to pay attention. And even our model of coalition employs vetoes too - we just don't get to hear about them, unless they result in coalition breakup.

Scofflaw

alastair, Dan - break it up or I'll ban both of you.

moderately,
Scofflaw

twowheelsgood

Banjo String wrote: »

How have you arrived at this conclusion

Perhaps the SF vote for the assembly will collapse to such an extent that they fail to secure even one ministry. But I doubt it.

Zubeneschamali

With the caveat that SF poll results don't and won't translate into seats, this does look very good for Sinn Féin.

So, what's their plan? Will they go into coalition as a junior partner? Good way to get blamed for everything and lose floating voters. Sit on the opposition benches as the official opposition? I think that is more likely.

If FG/FF have the numbers, it will be very hard for them to dodge the responsibility to form a government. I used to think it'd be the death of FF, but they can hardly be worse off than they are now - with SF as the real opposition, FF look completely useless.

It might be a lifeline - a few ministerial cars, siphon some funds into constituency projects, pretend to be reining FG in.

It just might work.

Dan_Solo

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

With the caveat that SF poll results don't and won't translate into seats, this does look very good for Sinn Féin.

So, what's their plan? Will they go into coalition as a junior partner? Good way to get blamed for everything and lose floating voters. Sit on the opposition benches as the official opposition? I think that is more likely.

If FG/FF have the numbers, it will be very hard for them to dodge the responsibility to form a government. I used to think it'd be the death of FF, but they can hardly be worse off than they are now - with SF as the real opposition, FF look completely useless.

It might be a lifeline - a few ministerial cars, siphon some funds into constituency projects, pretend to be reining FG in.

It just might work.

FF have been playing this game long enough that if they'll get blamed for everything as junior partners they won't be any more willing to join a coalition than SF will.
They and FG exist solely to be in power though, so you never know.

Zubeneschamali

Dan_Solo wrote: »

FF have been playing this game long enough that if they'll get blamed for everything as junior partners they won't be any more willing to join a coalition than SF will.

FF can't be blamed for compromising their principles or failing to get their policies enacted in a coalition, since they have no principles or policies.

Dyr

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

With the caveat that SF poll results don't and won't translate into seats, this does look very good for Sinn Féin.

So, what's their plan? Will they go into coalition as a junior partner? Good way to get blamed for everything and lose floating voters. Sit on the opposition benches as the official opposition? I think that is more likely.

If FG/FF have the numbers, it will be very hard for them to dodge the responsibility to form a government. I used to think it'd be the death of FF, but they can hardly be worse off than they are now - with SF as the real opposition, FF look completely useless.

It might be a lifeline - a few ministerial cars, siphon some funds into constituency projects, pretend to be reining FG in.

It just might work.

Martin might be made an offer he can't refuse I think, getting into government might save his leadership

ChicagoJoe

alastair wrote: »

SF are firm supporters of the mandatory coalition mechanism however, so it's rather disengenous to suggest that they're being coerced into a junior role in coalition.

Your th one who was trying to make out that cuts in the north were only the work of SF, I correctly pointed out that the Assembly is a mandatory coalition of 5 party's. It's quite clear who the one trying to be disingenuous.

Oh, and I'm not actually a unionist, but your attempt to paint me as a bogieman is noted.

Once again - quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck, feet like a duck but it's not a duck time

alastair

ChicagoJoe wrote: »

Your th one who was trying to make out that cuts in the north were only the work of SF, I correctly pointed out that the Assembly is a mandatory coalition of 5 party's. It's quite clear who the one trying to be disingenuous.

Nope. I'm just saying we can measure the economic competency of SF in coalition governance, by the record of the NI Executive. SF would also operate within a coalition in the south.

ChicagoJoe wrote: »

Once again - quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck, feet like a duck but it's not a duck time

Aside from not being a fan of SF, which most people are not, anything to ascribe unionist beliefs on me? Because it very much sounds like an imaginary duck of your own creation, that you're referring to.

ChicagoJoe

Dan_Solo wrote: »

FF have been playing this game long enough that if they'll get blamed for everything as junior partners they won't be any more willing to join a coalition than SF will.
They and FG exist solely to be in power though, so you never know.

But FF might not have any other choice. Since 2011 when they got 17.4% according to this poll on 20%, while the FG and LP vote from 2011 of 55.5% to only 29% in the poll of which FF have only picked up 2.6%. FF after 3 years are still toxic and will continue to be, just ask anyone on the anti water charges protests. So like I said, FF may have no other choice but to be the junior party and if that's the only option to get their snout in the trough they will go for it, have no doubt about it.

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

side from not being a fan of SF, which most people are not, anything to ascribe unionist beliefs on me? Because it very much sounds like an imaginary duck of your own creation, that you're referring to.

As imaginary as persisting laughably insisting that a power-sharing executive and voluntary coalition are exactly the same thing?
Yup.

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

As imaginary as persisting laughably insisting that a power-sharing executive and voluntary coalition are exactly the same thing?
Yup.

Who said they were 'exactly the same thing'? They're both coalition governments, and can be judged on their economic competences.

Banjo String

Des Bishop knows the craic alright.

Silentcorner

Have a read off of this.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/mary-lou-defends-adams-sick-murder-threat-joke-30729477.html

It's crazy stuff.

Tinkersbell

Silentcorner wrote: »

Have a read off of this.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/mary-lou-defends-adams-sick-murder-threat-joke-30729477.html

It's crazy stuff.

That's crazy ok. Desperate times demand desperate measures from Denis The Menace's rags...
Maybe he should try throwing money and directorships at SF instead like he does with FG/FF/Labour...

Dan_Solo

Hahaha, at this stage the Endapendent would be better off never mentioning SF and GA again. Their inept smear campaign is just damaging themselves and so transparent it's driving people to SF.

Banjo String

Silentcorner wrote: »

Have a read off of this.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/mary-lou-defends-adams-sick-murder-threat-joke-30729477.html

It's crazy stuff.

Raise ya this.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/anglo-link-to-sinn-fein-fundraiser-in-new-york-30729479.html

Tinkersbell

Banjo String wrote: »

Raise ya this.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/anglo-link-to-sinn-fein-fundraiser-in-new-york-30729479.html

LOL, WaterfordWhispersNews is more credible that O'Brien's rags......

twowheelsgood

Tinkersbell wrote: »

That's crazy ok. Desperate times demand desperate measures from Denis The Menace's rags...
Maybe he should try throwing money and directorships at SF instead like he does with FG/FF/Labour...

I'm not sure why everyone sees the hand of DOB at work here? The Sunday Independent has been critical of republicans for about a quarter of a century, and well before Denis came on the scene.


And long before SF were going anywhere electorally in the South. To imagine it is a new plan to counter the political rise of SF is at odds with these facts.

Tinkersbell

twowheelsgood wrote: »

I'm not sure why everyone sees the hand of DOB at work here? The Sunday Independent has been critical of republicans for about a quarter of a century, and well before Denis came on the scene.


And long before SF were going anywhere electorally in the South. To imagine it is a new plan to counter the political rise of SF is at odds with these facts.

Yea, maybe so, but have you seen the level of gutter journalism in it now?
It's a joke, the classic 'boy who cried wolf'!
Nobody with any intelligence would believe most of the trash they publish.
I look at the online versions now and again just for a laugh.

twowheelsgood

Tinkersbell wrote: »

Yea, maybe so, but have you seen the level of gutter journalism in it now?
It's a joke, the classic 'boy who cried wolf'!
Nobody with any intelligence would believe most of the trash they publish.
I look at the online versions now and again just for a laugh.

Well, I've heard all of that said about it long before Denis came along.

Newspaper to take editorial lines (never quite understood why) and the Sunday Indo takes an any-SF line. So of course SF supporters won't like it. But then the supporters of any party similarly on the receiving end wouldn't like it either.

michael999999

Stephen Rae saying they "Defend Press freedom".


http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2013/sep/17/irish-independent-ireland

And has he mentioned the saga surrounding the disappearance of he's penalty points?

michael999999

http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2014/jul/28/irish-independent-denis-o-brien

Independent my bolex.

A rag written by sock puppets!

Dan_Solo

twowheelsgood wrote: »

I'm not sure why everyone sees the hand of DOB at work here? The Sunday Independent has been critical of republicans for about a quarter of a century, and well before Denis came on the scene.

Maybe he bought the Indo because it already has an anti-SF agenda?

Timberrrrrrrr

twowheelsgood wrote: »

I'm not sure why everyone sees the hand of DOB at work here? The Sunday Independent has been critical of republicans for about a quarter of a century, and well before Denis came on the scene.


And long before SF were going anywhere electorally in the South. To imagine it is a new plan to counter the political rise of SF is at odds with these facts.

Shinners need a bogey man, there has to be someone to point the finger at when their scumbaggery (covering up rapes and child molestation) is reported. It's nothing to do with them covering these things up it's just a conspiracy against them

hatrickpatrick

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Hahaha, at this stage the Endapendent would be better off never mentioning SF and GA again. Their inept smear campaign is just damaging themselves and so transparent it's driving people to SF.

It's not just SF, I used to be fairly tolerant of the Indo but am I alone in thinking that the amount of bullsh!t slipping past the editors has become massively amplified in recent months? The quality of their reporting on pretty much everything has taken a massive nosedive. What happened?

Banjo String

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's not just SF, I used to be fairly tolerant of the Indo but am I alone in thinking that the amount of bullsh!t slipping past the editors has become massively amplified in recent months? The quality of their reporting on pretty much everything has taken a massive nosedive. What happened ?

Dennis took his eye of the ball.

And placed it on water meters.

Dan_Solo

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Shinners need a bogey man,

And our great leader Inda Cannae doesn't? And wouldn't plummet to exploiting, for example, a dissident republican rape victim with an axe to grind against SF?

Busted Flat.

Banjo String wrote: »

Dennis took his eye of the ball.

And placed it on water meters.

Dinny is under pressure, he does not work well under such conditions. Water, Indo, the new shady political disclosures, the Lowy licence, Topaz, all the new acquisitions from his powerful friends in the present regime. Hopefully he is not using the same doctor Mickey Jackson was using. You have to stay awake, or have a minder with you, you cant trust no one.. Jaysus I own nothing, but I stay up half the night worrying about if I had.

michael999999

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Dinny is under pressure, he does not work well under such conditions. Water, Indo, the new shady political disclosures, the Lowy licence, Topaz, all the new acquisitions from his powerful friends in the present regime. Hopefully he is not using the same doctor Mickey Jackson was using. You have to stay awake, or have a minder with you, you cant trust no one.. Jaysus I own nothing, but I stay up half the night worrying about if I had.

Totally different situations.

You have probably worked hard for everything you have. You weren't blessed enough to have thrown loads of money at Fine Gael and then be lucky enough to have a mobile phone licence awarded to you by Michael Lowry.

Oh how I wish I was that lucky!!!

Silentcorner

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's not just SF, I used to be fairly tolerant of the Indo but am I alone in thinking that the amount of bullsh!t slipping past the editors has become massively amplified in recent months? The quality of their reporting on pretty much everything has taken a massive nosedive. What happened?

There are reports of a terribly stressed work environment, a lot of print media is in similar shape, but this organisation has been going through upheaval at a very senior level on top of that, a real vicious boardroom battle and all that that entails.

The organisation needs an economic recovery fast to alleviate that atmosphere, but I think the problems are much deeper.

This paper used to fool a lot of people a lot of the time but these guys are now only fooling some people some of the time...a lot of stress comes with that...the comments sections are showing a lot of disdain for the paper...sales are falling rapidly...even with a bailout of €140 million things are not good...

What we are seeing is a result of all that stress, you are right, they are normally much slicker than this, to the point where it is difficult to spot the editorial lines or narratives...recently that has gone out the window...

Incidentally and separately Enda Kenny is displaying signs of either severe stress or complete denial, I've never seen the entire establishment looking so rattled...it's like they are all fighting different fires simultaneously and they are all rapidly spiraling out control....

I'm loving it....