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Taking repairs from rent

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  • 02-11-2014 2:35am
    #1
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭


    I informed the estate agent of a problem with the windows 3 months ago. They sent a guy out who tried to fix it but needed parts so went to order them, when asked for an update they sent out another guy who looked at them and said the same thing. At this point Im wanting to give them 2 weeks notice to get it sorted or we will do it ourselves. I know about getting a few quotes and sending them to them but is it possible to take the cost from the rent or do they need to refund me?

    Say if the rent is 800 and it costs 100 to fix the windows can I just pay 700 and send them the receipt or do I have to give them 800 and wait for them to refund me?


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    #2
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    It is not your prerogative to fix the issue and deduct the cost from the rent.
    The landlord (and/or their agent) has to do this.
    By all means give them a deadline to do the repair- but you are not entitled to do the repair- and if you do the repair- you are not entitled to be refunded for it.

    Also- 100 Euro to do the repair- seems improbably low........


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    #3
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Ah damn. I'm guessing the only way to escalate it is to go to PRTB?

    They have actually started making progress with it so it may not be an issue anymore or at least will go to a new stage and wait a few months.


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    #4
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    I informed the estate agent of a problem with the windows 3 months ago.
    What's the problem?


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    #5
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,507 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    It is not your prerogative to fix the issue and deduct the cost from the rent.
    The landlord (and/or their agent) has to do this.
    By all means give them a deadline to do the repair- but you are not entitled to do the repair- and if you do the repair- you are not entitled to be refunded for it.

    Also- 100 Euro to do the repair- seems improbably low........

    The landlord does not have to carry out the repair. The OP can inform the landlord in writing of the issue and give a reasonable time to fix said issue. If this is not met the tenant can organise the repair using a qualified person and deduct the cost from the rent. The ops intention to do this should be conveyed in the initial letter to the ll. All the op needs to do is provide a receipt for the work.


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    #6
    Citizenpain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,940 ✭✭✭Citizenpain


    You are entitled to reimbursement for any repairs that you carry out that are the landlord's responsibility , I'm not sure that you can do this by withholding rent though.


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    #7
    MojoRisinnnn
    Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭MojoRisinnnn


    If it is agreed by your landlord you can


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    #8
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,507 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Citizenpain wrote: »
    You are entitled to reimbursement for any repairs that you carry out that are the landlord's responsibility , I'm not sure that you can do this by withholding rent though.

    You cant withhold the rent, you can merely deduct the cost of the repairs form the rent, this needs to be conveyed in writing correctly to the LL though.
    MojoRisinnnn wrote: »
    If it is agreed by your landlord you can

    You do not need the LLs agreement.


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    #9
    MojoRisinnnn
    Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭MojoRisinnnn


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    You cant withhold the rent, you can merely deduct the cost of the repairs form the rent, this needs to be conveyed in writing correctly to the LL though.



    You do not need the LLs agreement.

    I think you do, Sure if that's the case you can just make up bogus repairs


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    #10
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,507 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    MojoRisinnnn wrote: »
    I think you do, Sure if that's the case you can just make up bogus repairs

    This is incorrect, you do not need the landlords permission if you have followed the steps I outlined above.

    You must provide valid receipts for all work.


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    #11
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    I informed the estate agent of a problem with the windows 3 months ago. They sent a guy out who tried to fix it but needed parts so went to order them, when asked for an update they sent out another guy who looked at them and said the same thing. At this point Im wanting to give them 2 weeks notice to get it sorted or we will do it ourselves. I know about getting a few quotes and sending them to them but is it possible to take the cost from the rent or do they need to refund me?

    Say if the rent is 800 and it costs 100 to fix the windows can I just pay 700 and send them the receipt or do I have to give them 800 and wait for them to refund me?

    Just make a phone call to your local council that your rented address hasn't been inspected by them yet (the council is responsible for inspecting all rented accommodation including private rental accommodation to meet a certain standard) .......... they will pick up on the needed repair and some other stuff to ......... the LL will be contacted and informed that they must upgrade their accommodation or they will not be allowed to rent it out to anybody.

    Do not withhold the rent under any circumstances whatsoever no matter what anybody here tells you ........ you're just asking for trouble and putting your tenancy into a vulnerable position.


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    #12
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,507 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    Just make a phone call to your local council that your rented address hasn't been inspected by them yet (the council is responsible for inspecting all rented accommodation including private rental accommodation to meet a certain standard) .......... they will pick up on the needed repair and some other stuff to ......... the LL will be contacted and informed that they must upgrade their accommodation or they will not be allowed to rent it out to anybody.

    Do not withhold the rent under any circumstances whatsoever no matter what anybody here tells you ........ you're just asking for trouble and putting your tenancy into a vulnerable position.

    This is incorrect. Tenants are legally allowed to remove costs incurred making repairs if the landlord has been informed of this in advance and given a reasonable time to make the repairs themselves.


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    #13
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    This is incorrect. Tenants are legally allowed to remove costs incurred making repairs if the landlord has been informed of this in advance and given a reasonable time to make the repairs themselves.

    A Tenant is entitled to be reimbursed for any repairs carried out which are the responsibility of the Landlord and paid for by the Tenant ........ however the Tenant is not allowed to withhold rent and it is dangerous and irresponsible of you to offer such poor advice.

    The OP should follow proper channels here ...........


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    #14
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,507 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    A Tenant is entitled to be reimbursed for any repairs carried out which are the responsibility of the Landlord and paid for by the Tenant ........ however the Tenant is not allowed to withhold rent and it is dangerous and irresponsible of you to offer such poor advice.

    The OP should follow proper channels here ...........

    Rent isn't being withheld, the full rent minus cost of repairs with receipt is being offered.


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    #15
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    Rent isn't being withheld, the full rent minus cost of repairs with receipt is being offered.

    True ......... but only if the LL agrees to this form of reimbursement otherwise it's withholding rent.


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    #16
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,507 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    True ......... but only if the LL agrees to this form of reimbursement otherwise it's withholding rent.

    The PTRB take a dim view of landlords not carrying out repairs and will side with the tenant every time - assuming of course sufficient notice and reasonable time is given.


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    #17
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    The PTRB take a dim view of landlords not carrying out repairs and will side with the tenant every time - assuming of course sufficient notice and reasonable time is given.

    Exactly ......... and this is the route the OP should take if necessary in order to stay on the right side of the law .......... but withholding rent means getting into a grey area which no Tenant wants to find themselves in ......... I stand by my original advice of not withholding rent.


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    #18
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,507 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    Exactly ......... and this is the route the OP should take if necessary in order to stay on the right side of the law .......... but withholding rent means getting into a grey area which no Tenant wants to find themselves in ......... I stand by my original advice of not withholding rent.

    Theres no grey area TBH, tenants are not expected to wait months for the PTRB to look at a case.


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    #19
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    Theres no grey area TBH, tenants are not expected to wait months for the PTRB to look at a case.

    It all depends.
    The OP said there was 'a problem with the window'......
    He did not give any indication of what the problem is.
    Its entirely possible its minor in nature- or such that while it would be nice to have it repaired, it does not materially affect the habitation of the property.
    We don't know.

    It might be viewed as critical- if the tenant had no fridge, a broken cooker- or indeed any of a long list of issues with the property. If, on the other hand- it was a cracked pane of glass, a broken handle stopping a window from being opened- or as has come up here before- the fact that there was condensation between panes in double glazing- then perhaps it might not be necessary to repair it at all.......

    We don't know.

    The OP was asked to clarify the issue in this thread- they haven't done so. It is premature to suggest that either party have rights or obligations- or at fault- as we quite simply don't have the full picture of what the issue is.


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    #20
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,507 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    It all depends.
    The OP said there was 'a problem with the window'......
    He did not give any indication of what the problem is.
    Its entirely possible its minor in nature- or such that while it would be nice to have it repaired, it does not materially affect the habitation of the property.
    We don't know.

    It might be viewed as critical- if the tenant had no fridge, a broken cooker- or indeed any of a long list of issues with the property. If, on the other hand- it was a cracked pane of glass, a broken handle stopping a window from being opened- or as has come up here before- the fact that there was condensation between panes in double glazing- then perhaps it might not be necessary to repair it at all.......

    We don't know.

    The OP was asked to clarify the issue in this thread- they haven't done so. It is premature to suggest that either party have rights or obligations- or at fault- as we quite simply don't have the full picture of what the issue is.

    That's why I said a reasonable amount of time. Threshold has guidelines for what constitutes reasonable on their site.


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    #21
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Sorry, meant to reply sooner.
    the_syco wrote: »
    What's the problem?

    Its an issue with opening and closing. They have 2 different settings, one where the hinge is at the bottom and one where the hinge is at the side. Both open with the hinge on the side only which means they cant be left alone as a strong breeze causes them to swing all over the place.
    One of them can swing open when its meant to be closed. Housemate has been woken up a few times by the window randomly swinging open at night when its windy. Both dont close properly and you can hear the wind howling through them.
    runawaybishop wrote: »
    The landlord does not have to carry out the repair. The OP can inform the landlord in writing of the issue and give a reasonable time to fix said issue. If this is not met the tenant can organise the repair using a qualified person and deduct the cost from the rent. The ops intention to do this should be conveyed in the initial letter to the ll. All the op needs to do is provide a receipt for the work.

    This is what I thought you could do but wasnt sure the exact details of it.

    We have gotten to the point where they know what needs to be done and are contacting the LL about it. Whether or not they'll continue each step at the same pace remains to be seen.


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    #22
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    The landlord does not have to carry out the repair. The OP can inform the landlord in writing of the issue and give a reasonable time to fix said issue. If this is not met the tenant can organise the repair using a qualified person and deduct the cost from the rent. The ops intention to do this should be conveyed in the initial letter to the ll. All the op needs to do is provide a receipt for the work.
    runawaybishop wrote: »
    This is incorrect. Tenants are legally allowed to remove costs incurred making repairs if the landlord has been informed of this in advance and given a reasonable time to make the repairs themselves.

    link?
    runawaybishop wrote: »
    Theres no grey area TBH, tenants are not expected to wait months for the PTRB to look at a case.

    Landlords have to wait months on the PRTB?
    runawaybishop wrote: »
    That's why I said a reasonable amount of time. Threshold has guidelines for what constitutes reasonable on their site.

    Could you link that specifically, Im interested to read it.
    Threshold is a tenants advocate group, how is their opinion on whats reasonable, a legal fact?


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    #23
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    cerastes wrote: »
    link?



    Landlords have to wait months on the PRTB?



    Could you link that specifically, Im interested to read it.
    Threshold is a tenants advocate group, how is their opinion on whats reasonable, a legal fact?

    Glad to see you're not silly enough to blindly take on foolish advice and run with it ............


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    #24
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    www.google.com

    let me know if you don't know how to work it.

    I just "worked" it ......... PRTB site says "Tenants must be reimbursed by the landlord for any repairs that are carried out on the accommodation" ........ it also says "Pay your rent in full and on time" and "If a breach of lease concerns non-payment of rent in relation to a
    tenancy of 6 months or more, notice must be served stating
    that the tenant is in arrears of rent and providing a reasonable
    amount of time to remedy the breach. If after that reasonable
    amount of time has passed without the breach being remedied,
    a further notice must be served informing the tenant that an
    amount of rent is due and giving 14 days to pay those rent arrears.
    If the tenant fails to pay the rent due within 14 days of receipt of
    the notice the landlord may serve a valid Notice of Termination
    giving 28 days notice"

    Couldn't find anything (I suspect you couldn't either!) that backed up your statement about having the right to withhold rent in any circumstances ......... hence why you're happy to offer the OP silly "advice" but are not happy to provide the OP with a requested link to back up said "advice" :rolleyes:


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    #25
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,507 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    I just "worked" it ......... PRTB site says "Tenants must be reimbursed by the landlord for any repairs that are carried out on the accommodation" ........ it also says "Pay your rent in full and on time" and "If a breach of lease concerns non-payment of rent in relation to a
    tenancy of 6 months or more, notice must be served stating
    that the tenant is in arrears of rent and providing a reasonable
    amount of time to remedy the breach. If after that reasonable
    amount of time has passed without the breach being remedied,
    a further notice must be served informing the tenant that an
    amount of rent is due and giving 14 days to pay those rent arrears.
    If the tenant fails to pay the rent due within 14 days of receipt of
    the notice the landlord may serve a valid Notice of Termination
    giving 28 days notice"

    Couldn't find anything (I suspect you couldn't either!) that backed up your statement about having the right to withhold rent in any circumstances ......... hence why you're happy to offer the OP silly "advice" but are not happy to provide the OP with a requested link to back up said "advice" :rolleyes:

    Ah look, would you lot ever use a bit of common sense.

    If a repair needs to be carried out and the landlord does not do it in a reasonable amount of time the tenant is not expected to pay for the repair themselves and also pay rent in full. It is entirely reasonable for the cost of repairs to be deducted from rent. Do you think the PTRB will expect the tenant to hand over the rent and in the same transaction receive the repair cost back?

    Tenant's Rights
    Reimbursement for reasonable expenditure on any repairs carried out by them for which the landlord was responsible

    No where does it say reimbursment cannot be carried out in the same transaction as the rent. The only situation where the tenant would run into issues would be if notice or cost was not reasonable.


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    #26
    MadDog76
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,162 ✭✭✭MadDog76


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    Ah look, would you lot ever use a bit of common sense.

    If a repair needs to be carried out and the landlord does not do it in a reasonable amount of time the tenant is not expected to pay for the repair themselves and also pay rent in full. It is entirely reasonable for the cost of repairs to be deducted from rent. Do you think the PTRB will expect the tenant to hand over the rent and in the same transaction receive the repair cost back?

    Tenant's Rights
    Reimbursement for reasonable expenditure on any repairs carried out by them for which the landlord was responsible

    No where does it say reimbursment cannot be carried out in the same transaction as the rent. The only situation where the tenant would run into issues would be if notice or cost was not reasonable.

    I'm not disputing the fact that a Tenant is fully entitled to be reimbursed for any repairs carried out and paid for by the Tenant and indeed it may be deducted from the rent with the Landlord's permission ......... I'm just saying that if things get messy down the line it's imperative that the Tenant does everything by the book now to protect him/herself in the future.

    My own Landlord is a bit lazy ........ almost impossible to get in contact with and takes an eternity to ever get back to us but we came to an agreement years ago that instead of contacting him about minor issues that we should make our own decisions regarding repairs/upgrades/replacements etc and just deduct the cost from the rent which suits us both perfectly ........ I made damn sure though that I had all this in writing (a signed letter, email and text messages) to protect ourselves in the future should any dispute arise.


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    #27
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,507 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    MadDog76 wrote: »
    I'm not disputing the fact that a Tenant is fully entitled to be reimbursed for any repairs carried out and paid for by the Tenant and indeed it may be deducted from the rent with the Landlord's permission ......... I'm just saying that if things get messy down the line it's imperative that the Tenant does everything by the book now to protect him/herself in the future.

    My own Landlord is a bit lazy ........ almost impossible to get in contact with and takes an eternity to ever get back to us but we came to an agreement years ago that instead of contacting him about minor issues that we should make our own decisions regarding repairs/upgrades/replacements etc and just deduct the cost from the rent which suits us both perfectly ........ I made damn sure though that I had all this in writing (a signed letter, email and text messages) to protect ourselves in the future should any dispute arise.

    I fully agree and accept that the tenant needs to ensure they are covered in cases like this. Personally I would send several letters, including copies of quotes and requests for the landlord to complete work before I proceeded. Offering the receipt for the work carried out + the remainder of the rent arguably fulfils the tenants obligation to pay rent in full.

    Tenants are not expected to be held hostage or suffer financial issues because a landlord isn't performing their obligations.


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    #28
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    I'm closing this thread. If people want to discuss it further- please PM me on Monday- after the elapse of the 2 day ban I gave runawaybishop for linking to www.google.ie when asked for a link to what they were claiming.

    If anyone else wants to take part in little stunts like that- they too will be having a little holiday from the forum.

    Its not hard to remain civilised towards one another- I will not tolerate trolling.


This discussion has been closed.
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