My Belgian water bill.

Greenman

Excuse me if I'm posting in the wrong forum, but I thought you'd like to see my Belgian water bill and compare.


We are a couple with 2 children 10 and 7.


The long and the short of it is we used 51 cubes and we paid €167 for the year, this included water in water out plus the allowance.


We have a 10,000 litre rain water tank which we use for the washing machine,downstairs toilet and garden. This tank was installed with pump about 2 years ago and we have seen our usage drop by say 40% +/-


If you have questions I will try to answer.

Sala

Is that a yearly statement or do you just get 1 bill at the end if the year?

18MonthsaSlave

Observations:
You get a free water allowance based on number of occupants.
Your charge per cubic metre appears to be around 60 to 70 percent of the charge in Ireland despite Belguim being highly populated with little water available without being processed heavily(assumption on my part)
Your VAT rate is 6% while there is no VAT in Ireland but I assume in a year or two I'm sure Government will say "Those nasty people in the E.U. have forced us to levy VAT on Water" and then an additional 13.5% rate of VAT will apply.


Heidelberg Water charges are here. They're high for Germany but still cheaper than Ireland. The waste water charge in Ireland is ridiculous.
https://www.swhd.de/de/Energie-und-Wasser/Wasser/Wasser-und-Abwasser-Gebuehren/Wasser-und-Abwasser-Gebuehren.html

Greenman

Sala wrote: »

Is that a yearly statement or do you just get 1 bill at the end if the year?

Its a yearly bill. You pay an estimated amount every 3 months at the end of the year you send your meter reading in via net or post and in about a week you get your bill, this year I had to pay €23 extra, next year the 3 monthly payments will be adjusted slightly up.


My water meter is in my cellar.


About a year ago the meter was inspected by the water board they said they had to renew the meter at they're cost. They also said I needed a one way valve renewed and gave me 1 month to do so. This was carried out by my plumber. A month later they came back to check I had done it.


Not sure what happens if you do not pay, I'll find out and get back to you.

makeorbrake

Greenman wrote: »

We have a 10,000 litre rain water tank which we use for the washing machine,downstairs toilet and garden. This tank was installed with pump about 2 years ago and we have seen our usage drop by say 40% +/-

What was the capital cost of this? Any idea what the ongoing cost is? Was it subsidised or grant aided in any way?

Ive done the sums on domestic rainwater harvesting systems here and they simply don't stack up (financially).

murphaph

Man, water is cheap as chips in Belgium. Here in Berlin we pay:
€4.50/m³ with NO free allowance whatsoever. We also pay €0.31 towards sewage treatment for every m³ of drinking water we use and we pay a flat €13.33 a year to the meter reading company.

Rainwater harvesting systems here are definitely economical and in fact because our water in Berlin is so hard, rainwater (as soft as it gets) is particularly beneficial for use in washing machines and toilets.

18MonthsaSlave

My landlord has a waterbutt for his garden her in Baden-Wurttemberg.
Seems fair to me as heavy users should be paying more than those who use sparingly.
In Ireland they've gone for a high tariff for everyone.

All these protests over Water Charges per se but the details like being a dumping ground for lazy co. co. staff or gravy pot quango for the connected or cross subsidy for Bord Gais or profitable contract for private businesses providing services to Irish water or that Income tax hasn't actually gone down even though it isn't paying for water anymore.

Greenman

makeorbrake wrote: »

What was the capital cost of this? Any idea what the ongoing cost is? Was it subsidised or grant aided in any way?

Ive done the sums on domestic rainwater harvesting systems here and they simply don't stack up (financially).

They do not really stack up but over here if you do a new build or renovate you are obliged to fit a rain water tank and pump.


Pump with some bits cost around €500 - a €250 grant.
The renovation/extension cost €45,000 - a €10,000 grant.


I think a concrete 10,000 liter tank with the bits is about €1,000 delivered. But I think you can go as low as a 3,000 liter tank.


Finally I have a 1,000 liter tank costing €50 connected to my workshop roof gutters in the garden with a €25 pump connected to a hose. This does all the outside stuff.


In my case when you pay for water you really think about it.

Greenman

makeorbrake wrote: »

Any idea what the ongoing cost is?

Oh ye on that.


Next year I might have to drain the tank or hope for a drought and get into the tank and wash it clean. Otherwise I do not see any ongoing costs. The pump uses 700 watts per hour. If you flush for a number 2 it runs for a minute to refill.


Added advantage re rain water use is its soft water for a washing machine as mentioned above plus you cannot be charged for water out as they do not know how much you have returned to the sewer.


One more thing here. They are starting to seperate the toilet out and the washing water out into seperate pipes. Wonder when that will hit Ireland?

Marcin_diy

Poland
- no free allowances,
1000 L of water ~ 0.90 euro

1000L of waste water = 1.2 euro

This is average price for my home city, however prices are different in every single city.

makeorbrake

Greenman wrote: »

They do not really stack up but over here if you do a new build or renovate you are obliged to fit a rain water tank and pump.

Wow - they've included it in their building regs - that's tough love!

Greenman wrote:

Next year I might have to drain the tank or hope for a drought and get into the tank and wash it clean. Otherwise I do not see any ongoing costs. The pump uses 700 watts per hour. If you flush for a number 2 it runs for a minute to refill.

Does it work out more expensive (with pumping costs) than actually paying for 'fresh' water?

Greenman wrote:

One more thing here. They are starting to seperate the toilet out and the washing water out into seperate pipes. Wonder when that will hit Ireland?

That's so much more advanced. God only knows how long it will take us to get there.


I'm not a big fan of taxes (who is) but I actually agree with this one. of course, in Ireland - as with all pooled funds - the issue is with the delivery of value for money! It will take a couple of generations before we get our act together on that front.

However, I can see from what you describe in BE and what the others have described re. DE - that the europeans are geared up for efficiency - and that's the smart approach.

I'm surprised that this particular charge has got everyones back up. I think that peoples general displeasure is being channeled against the wrong tax. It should be channeled against the pension levy and/or the universal social charge (which was meant to be temporary).

Greenman

makeorbrake wrote: »

Does it work out more expensive (with pumping costs) than actually paying for 'fresh' water?

Not sure how you calculate that, but its installed and you don't pay for the water out :-)


Re Irish Water, I think it was a rushed job and badly handled and money wasted.


Many of the will not pay maybe are people who think everything is free? on the otherhand its unfair to be expected to pay full whack when the water is brown and or undrinkable.


Its like if you brought ID cards to Ireland, can you imagine the protests, ah but they are bringing them through the back door via the social welfare card as per. It look like a near copy of my Belgian ID card.





Maybe it was better the bring in the meters in slowly slowly no shocks.


Ah well thats Ireland.

murphaph

It seems both Poland and Belgium charge more for waste water treatment than drinking water supply. Intuitively I find this makes sense...it must be much more labour intensive (and therefore more expensive) to run the waste water system than the drinking water supply system. In Germany the contribution towards waste water is a small fraction of the cost of the drinking water. That doesn't add up to me.

Thanks for posting OP. It's interesting to compare the different billing systems.

I am not in favour of free allowances being administered by the water board (needless admin overhead that essentially duplicates admin in already existing and indispensable government departments like Revenue and Welfare. I think these allowances should simply be handled by way of extra tax credits or social welfare payments or whatever. I also think people are less likely to try to pull fast ones with Revenue and Welfare than with IW, who have shown themselves to be an administrative shambles (all happened far too quick, though i fully agree with the principle of water metering and paying according to use).

In most water regions here it's possible to get a garden meter fitted after your main meter. This works out how much you use to water the plants and then this amount is deducted from the waste water amount as it is not flowing back into the treatment system. Though this extra meter is the maintenance responsibility of the occupant and that includes replacing it when it is out of calibration etc.

Some German councils also attach the rainwater harvesting as a condition of planning on new builds, but it's not universal. When building a new house (as we will be doing next year) I cannot see any good reason not to at least get a 5000L plastic tank buried in the garden. The digger etc. will be on site anyway and the tanks are relatively inexpensive. Where we're building we have high groundwater and so we'll sink a well for the garden water, but we'll use rainwater for the toilets and washing machine (very high iron and manganese content in the well water where we're building so not ideal at all for the washing machine). If your groundwater is high then a shallow (don't need a monster pump) well can be a very cost effective solution for water for the hose pipe!

makeorbrake

murphaph wrote: »

It seems both Poland and Belgium charge more for waste water treatment than drinking water supply. Intuitively I find this makes sense...it must be much more labour intensive (and therefore more expensive) to run the waste water system than the drinking water supply system. In Germany the contribution towards waste water is a small fraction of the cost of the drinking water. That doesn't add up to me.

Is it a case that the Germans are thinking in terms of resource efficiency - and want to concentrate peoples thinking as regards do I need to use this water in the first instance - rather than deal with wastewater separately?

murphaph wrote: »

I am not in favour of free allowances being administered by the water board (needless admin overhead that essentially duplicates admin in already existing and indispensable government departments like Revenue and Welfare. I think these allowances should simply be handled by way of extra tax credits or social welfare payments or whatever.

I agree completely. Furthermore, as well as a more simplified system, its one which encourages the greatest resource efficiency.

murphaph wrote: »

Some German councils also attach the rainwater harvesting as a condition of planning on new builds, but it's not universal. When building a new house (as we will be doing next year) I cannot see any good reason not to at least get a 5000L plastic tank buried in the garden. The digger etc. will be on site anyway and the tanks are relatively inexpensive.

Are plastic tanks cheap? I know the prices I was getting a few months back were scary! I'd be interested to see what price you get in DE?

murphaph

I just had a quick google. There's one 5500L tank here for €950. If I can displace 40% (which is what is expected as the toilets and washing machine alone consume about this much) of my usage I'd save about 200 a year in water bills (last bill was 550) we'd be looking at a 7 or 8 year amortisation (allowing for the pump and extra pipework inside the house) after which time you'd be simply saving 200 a year and as I said before, our water in Berlin is cack. It's wicked hard and using rainwater would benefit the washing machine (extend its life) and eliminate the need for fabric softener etc.

tayto lover

From my observations IW is far too expensive.
If we put in proper water-saving devices they will just increase the price of the water.
Those big wages and bonuses will have to be paid somehow.

galah

Just throwing a cat among the pigeons....in Germany, at least in my hometown, when you own a house, you also pay a rainwater tax - based on the square meterage of sealed land. So you pay for whatever amount of rain hits your paved or tarmacced drive etc and runs off into the public sewerage system to be treated.

Hope the irish government doesn't look too closely at that or a lot of people will be in for a shock....

I made my mum go through a few years worth of water bills just for the craic, and it seems that the average for our family of four (two adults and two then teenagers) was around 80m3 per year. Based on that i really dont know what the fuss here is about.

I can understand why people protest against the shambles that is irish water though. i am ok with having to pay for water, but not the way things are organised here at the moment, bloody joke.

Greenman

murphaph wrote: »

I just had a quick google. There's one 5500L tank here for €950. If I can displace 40% (which is what is expected as the toilets and washing machine alone consume about this much) of my usage I'd save about 200 a year in water bills (last bill was 550) we'd be looking at a 7 or 8 year amortisation (allowing for the pump and extra pipework inside the house) after which time you'd be simply saving 200 a year and as I said before, our water in Berlin is cack. It's wicked hard and using rainwater would benefit the washing machine (extend its life) and eliminate the need for fabric softener etc.

How many cubes did you use last year?

murphaph

Greenman wrote: »

How many cubes did you use last year?

I can't say for certain as our water meter was only installed mid year. The rest of the bill is the old way (based on area of our apartment). We expect however to have increased usage in the new house as well, it's a hose, not an apartment so we'll have a garden to water and cars to wash.

joeysoap

Lagoa Camera in Portugal, (Central Algarve)

standing charge if you don't use any water in a month €7.67 details:
water in charge €1.56 - water out charge €3.00 - bin charges €3.02 (the bin charge is included in the local authority charge) +9c vat.

the monthly tariff is an escalating one - first 5,000 litres per month ( in addition to standing charge above)
water in 0.44c per 1,000 litlres - water out 0.44c per 1,000 litres - bin charges 0.41c (per 1,000 litres used ) and there is another 12 c for something else.


I am looking at a bill for earlier this year 3,000 litres used in that month;
water in €1.56 + €1.32 - water out €3.00 + €1.32 - bin €3.02 + €1.23 + the 12c and vat 18c total €11.75.

the rates for the next 10,000 litres per month are steeper but I do not have them to hand, as I have not exceeded the 5,000 in a month for some time. perhaps as high as €1 per 1,000 litres in and out. suspect the bin charges remain the same. You are billed monthy by direct debit.

by my calculations if I were in Portugal for 12 months I would perhaps pay slightly less than in Ireland BUT with my household waste bill included. (currently around €300 pa in Ireland)

** I omitted that we buy our drinking water, approx 2 x 5L containers per week @ 60c per 5 litres. We use tap water for tea and coffee etc. Adds another €60 per year to costs, but I suspect that most Irish people also do this in Ireland.

helimachoptor

a friend of mine lives in Crete, he pays €5.50 per month for his water supply (2 adults, and soon 2 be 2 kids)

In fairness Crete is pretty mountainous and the mountain areas do see a bit of rain, but the flat areas in the summer are basically dessert like. Tap water is fine to drink but bottled water is cheap and plentiful.

My friend was in in IReland during 2007 when it basically rained non stop for months.. he cant believe how much its going to cost

tayto lover

helimachoptor wrote: »

a friend of mine lives in Crete, he pays €5.50 per month for his water supply (2 adults, and soon 2 be 2 kids)

In fairness Crete is pretty mountainous and the mountain areas do see a bit of rain, but the flat areas in the summer are basically dessert like. Tap water is fine to drink but bottled water is cheap and plentiful.

My friend was in in IReland during 2007 when it basically rained non stop for months.. he cant believe how much its going to cost

It's a rip-off and we can all see this.
The cronies must make money or Enda won't get a nice handy job when he goes. Hogan already sorted.

Michael D Not Higgins

I pay water charges in Scotland as an unmetered rate tied to council tax. I'm in a one bed flat at the second lowest council tax level and pay ~£320 (~€400) a year for water/waste. The equivalent unmetered amount is €278 in Ireland (€424 without allowance applied).

Metered rates are higher than Ireland and as far as I can tell, there is no allowance for water in metered homes. There is however a lower rate when you pass 25 cubic metres for the year (approx a third of the higher rate for supplied water, and a half of the higher rate for waste water). Average household bill is supposedly £339 a year.

Bob24

Interesting comparisons ... I was curious and checked France (went for Paris as it is managed by local authorities and prices are no the same everywhere).

http://www.paris.fr/pratique/Portal.lut?page_id=1310

- 3.22 euros per 1000 litres for both in and out service
- "meter rental and maintenance" standing fee of 21.75 euros per year
- no free allowance

Interestingly they give the details of where the money is going:
- 35.1% for the drinking water service
- 40.9% for the wast water service
- 24% for a "regional and national solidarity tax for natural water protection" (welcome to France :-)) - basically it seems like this is used to fund local and national agencies in charge helping local operators to modernise their water distribution networks

Greenman

Any idea what Irish Water will be charging for a cube?


What is they're water in water out policy?


How much will the people without meters pay?


Anyway happy you saw my Belgian Water Bill.

Bob24

Greenman wrote: »

Any idea what Irish Water will be charging for a cube?
2.

What is they're water in water out policy?


How much will the people without meters pay?


Anyway happy you saw my Belgian Water Bill.

See details here: http://www.water.ie/customer-applications/charges/

But basically:
- Water supplied: €2.44 per m3
- Wastewater removed: €2.44 per m3 - As far as I understand this is not metered (I guess wastewater is more challenging to meter :-D). For people who have water in metered it will be assumed that the quantity going out is the same as the one going in, and for others the price will be based on the assessed charge
- So in total and for both services: €4.88 per m3 (excluding any free allowance)
- For unmetered prices see table on the link I provided as it depends on how many people live in the property and whether there are kids. But for exemple a household of 2 people (no kids) will be €278.16 per year including the free allowance they are getting

Greenman

It seems I am paying €3,35 a cube, water in water out.


Irish water is charging €4,88 a cube, since it is new for some people in Ireland to pay water charges was it not better so start at a much lower fee?


It was interesting on Primetime to see the costs in the UK and Europe, Ireland was second from the top, now that will annoy more people.

ABajaninCork

My last water bill in London was £391. This was for a 2 bed house in London and was on a rate, and therefore unmetered. My mate in the next borough over pays £44 pm. But she's on a meter.

AlanS181824

Such an interesting thread.

Thanks for sharing.

Bob24

Greenman wrote: »

It was interesting on Primetime to see the costs in the UK and Europe, Ireland was second from the top, now that will annoy more people.

Was it a recent one which still is on RTE Player?

I think the cost was basically calculated based on how much money is currently needed to run the water service divided by how much they expect people to be using once it won't be free anymore. This sounds like a reasonable calculation to me, but unfortunately as with many other things on our small island running the water service is probably more expensive than elsewhere in Europe which results in higher prices for us once there is no more government subsidy :-/

Having said that did Primetime take into account the free allowances (which are likely temporary but still ... as you said it is a way to start lower) and the fact that there is no standing charge? (which I think was a conscious decision but is not standard practise elsewhere).

Greenman

ABajaninCork wrote: »

My last water bill in London was £391. This was for a 2 bed house in London and was on a rate, and therefore unmetered. My mate in the next borough over pays £44 pm. But she's on a meter.

That sounds alot.


Then you have council tax on top of that.


Imagine if they brought that in in Ireland ???