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Acceptable punishment in crèche?
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anothercrecheworker wrote: »Sorry to reiterate but I'm a former crèche worker and I can verify everything the other poster has said is true. I don't have an account but I'm a frequent reader and felt compelled to comment.
Working with numerous children all day every day is immensely stressful and it's only human to cut corners sometimes to make your working day easier. Not a nice thing for a parent to hear but the honest truth is it's not all Mary Poppins day in, day out.
I'm sure a lot of parents would be surprised to know what really goes on all the time. Nothing horrific/neglectful (in my experience) thankfully but far, far from what would be considered best practice and what is presented to parents every evening. Just enough for me to know I would live on beans before leaving my own daughter in a crèche. A harsh statement but true nonetheless.
On the other hand, I think it's unfair and hypocritical for a parent to expect somebody else to give their everything to your child if you can't even give it yourself. You might argue that you pay a lot of money to your childcare facility but the person minding your child only receives a minimum wage.
Would you exhaust yourself mentally, emotionally and physically every day for 9 quid an hour? Because that's how I felt before I quit at the crèche I worked in last year. Créches have a huge staff turnover for a reason.
The main reason being that it's not easy to work with demanding children every day. If it was, more parents would be doing everything they could to ensure they raise their children themselves as opposed to someone just trying to make a living and get through their day.
Is this how you really feel? That you're raising the children? Let me tell you something, you are not. Their parents have their reasons for working and being so judgmental about their choices does your profession no favours. Not every creche has huge turnover. The one I was in 30 years ago is still run by the same women, who's daughter now works there too. Have you reported your concerns about your workplace to the HSE and childcare committee?
Looking after children in a creche setting is not raising them. You're not up at night when they're sick, or making choices about what school they go to, or figuring out which friends are good for them and which ones you'd rather they avoid or bringing them for vaccinations or doing the thousand and one things parents do, alongside working and everything else.0 -
Is this how you really feel? That you're raising the children? Let me tell you something, you are not. Their parents have their reasons for working and being so judgmental about their choices does your profession no favours. Not every creche has huge turnover. The one I was in 30 years ago is still run by the same women, who's daughter now works there too. Have you reported your concerns about your workplace to the HSE and childcare committee?
Looking after children in a creche setting is not raising them. You're not up at night when they're sick, or making choices about what school they go to, or figuring out which friends are good for them and which ones you'd rather they avoid or bringing them for vaccinations or doing the thousand and one things parents do, alongside working and everything else.
Huge turnover of staff does not mean one owner for 30 years!
You're very biased in this discussion Lazygal as you were in a creche when younger, you are a montessori teacher and your children are in a creche. It's not an objective view as you don't have any personal experience other than paid childcare.0 -
anothercrecheworker wrote: »The main reason being that it's not easy to work with demanding children every day. If it was, more parents would be doing everything they could to ensure they raise their children themselves as opposed to someone just trying to make a living and get through their day.
This is a really strange attitude to have. I don't have kids yet but I have enough cop on to know that while there are many reasons why parents either choose to or have to work outside the home, fobbing their children off on someone else to be "raised" isn't one of them. What kind of person has kids and then thinks "you know what I'll do now because this parenting thing is a bit rubbish, I'll get a job and stick them in a crèche!"0 -
This is a really strange attitude to have. I don't have kids yet but I have enough cop on to know that while there are many reasons why parents either choose to or have to work outside the home, fobbing their children off on someone else to be "raised" isn't one of them. What kind of person has kids and then thinks "you know what I'll do now because this parenting thing is a bit rubbish, I'll get a job and stick them in a crèche!"
I don't think that's how it happens. Looking after children all day long is an extremely tough job....isolated, unpaid, thankless and never-ending.
It is the hardest job in the world in my opinion. That's why some people DO put their children into a creche and go back to work. They assume creche is a good thing for the child and, reading posts here, that the child is actually better off in a creche than at home with his mother or father. They feel guilty about it, but again this is dismissed as normal.0 -
Waylon Fierce Animal wrote: »I'm in a bit of a tizz here and hoping I can bounce this off other parents to see what you all think?
I went to collect my two year old son (he's only 26 months old) this evening from crèche. I arrived at 4.45pm so it was quite dusky. I went into the crèche and noticed that the light in my son's room was turned off and it was quite dusky. I could see straight through to the yard outside and the children were all outside playing with a crèche worker.
I proceeded to walk into the room so that I could walk to the back door, which was closed, and go outside to the yard to collect my son. Mid way through the room I heard crying IN the room and I looked over to my left and there was my son, sitting on a chair in the dusky light and wearing his coat and hat.
I Immediately picked him up and cuddled him, wiping his tears away. There was nobody else in the room with him. The room has a side hallway that leads into a nappy changing area and about 30 seconds later a crèche worker came out with a mop...as though she had been in there mopping that area. I asked her why my son was by himself in a room with no light on and bawling crying. She said he had hit another child outside and was put inside on time out but that it wasn't long before I'd walked in.
Then the girl who was outside spotted me and opened the outside door, stuck her head in and said the had put him on time out as he had pushed another child...and that the door had been left open but another child must have closed it.
I didn't really say anything...I was upset myself having arrived after a days work to fund my little fella like this. I know my son us no angel and I do use time out myself the odd time at home but he is always in the same room as me and I explain why he has to take a few mins out from playing etc. I do agree with the crèche disciplining him but I'm upset he was by himself in a room in the dusky light. Now maybe the girl mopping the floor was meant to be looking after him but she was in mopping floors in other rooms.
I don't know what to think but it's not sitting right with me.
I actually feel sick reading this. No way is this acceptable in any level. I'd complain , demand my money back and withdraw my child. You don't get this time back and no way would I let anyone treat my child in such a way. It doesn't sit right with you because it's not right! Trust your gut instincts0 -
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Hannibal Smith wrote: »Yeah I am shocked when this happens. Its not naive. You pay for child CARE the least you can expect is the care part.
So while I find things like this shocking it doesn't shock me, do you know what I mean? Absolutely we should expect are children to be cared for and I'm sure the majority of the time they are very well cared for in creche but honestly I feel it's enevitable that things like that happen from time to time, nothing is perfect from care in creche to school to hospital etc they all have failings, they all have unsuitable people working there or people who make a bad decision after a bad day.0 -
I dont know why the creche worker is being called a troll,I thought she was being very honest.Parents dont look to closely into what happens in creches because if they have to work what alternative is there for their childrens care.
Most creche workers I have met all say they wont put their own children in a creche,they may want to work but what they mean is a childminder might be a better option.Childminders though are not perfect either,I felt my children were better in a creche that being minded by an individual who might be a nutcase in their own home.Also most childminders are doing it for money and to provide extras for their own children,the minded children are second class citizens in someone elses home and the childminders children can resent them being there,there is no perfect solution.
Also saying we pay thousands for childcare so we expect a quality service is nonsense,the money you pay is lining the pockets of the creche owners in many cases and its a business to them,they have no interest in children,they are in the business to avail of tax breaks and to make money.They will pay the staff as little as they can get away with and many of the staff are there because they have been forced into work by the department of social welfare.
If your child is in a creche you need to vary your routine,dont arrive in at the same time everyday,ask questions about how the day went.Show an interest,why didnt the OP know who the new manager was,why didnt she make it her business to find out who was in charge.Why wasnt she informed in writing of the name of this person,surely the new manager should have met the parents and introduced herself.Why hasnt the Op spoken to the staff,I wouldnt have left without speaking to whoever left my child in the dark on his own.
Throwing the children out in the dark in November is appalling too,how would people working in warm offices like to be told to go and stand in the street an hour before works ends so the place can be cleaned.!!!!!!!!!!!!more disrespect for children.0 -
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Mod:
OK everyone it is an emotive issue but - this could be a very interesting and enlightening discussion if everyone calms down a bit, stops getting personal, making digs at other posters, and discusses things reasonably. If that is not going to happen, I'll close the thread.
If you think someone is trolling, report the post.0 -
My children are long grown up, but something that fascinates me are mothers/parents who think the crèche is doing a better job that do because they are watching/entertaining the child all the time, somehow they have come to believe that they need to constantly entertained their children not leaving the child to self sooth, use their imagination.
If I had small children again I would use a mixture of a crèche and a child-minder, getting the best of both worlds. I know that's not possible for everyone.
Parents/mothers attitude to the crèche or childcare is often defined by how they feel about their work if they feel guilty about working, are low paid, or in a job they dislike thy are more likely to believe the care the child is receiving is sub standard everyone is only doing it for the money ect.
There are very good crèches and child minders, my next door neighbour is a child minder and is beyond excellent and children adore her. I think some of the issues with the crèches is simply that some people are in the wrong job.0 -
I dont know why the creche worker is being called a troll,I thought she was being very honest.Parents dont look to closely into what happens in creches because if they have to work what alternative is there for their childrens care.
Most creche workers I have met all say they wont put their own children in a creche,they may want to work but what they mean is a childminder might be a better option.Childminders though are not perfect either,I felt my children were better in a creche that being minded by an individual who might be a nutcase in their own home.Also most childminders are doing it for money and to provide extras for their own children,the minded children are second class citizens in someone elses home and the childminders children can resent them being there,there is no perfect solution.
Also saying we pay thousands for childcare so we expect a quality service is nonsense,the money you pay is lining the pockets of the creche owners in many cases and its a business to them,they have no interest in children,they are in the business to avail of tax breaks and to make money.They will pay the staff as little as they can get away with and many of the staff are there because they have been forced into work by the department of social welfare.
If your child is in a creche you need to vary your routine,dont arrive in at the same time everyday,ask questions about how the day went.Show an interest,why didnt the OP know who the new manager was,why didnt she make it her business to find out who was in charge.Why wasnt she informed in writing of the name of this person,surely the new manager should have met the parents and introduced herself.Why hasnt the Op spoken to the staff,I wouldnt have left without speaking to whoever left my child in the dark on his own.
Throwing the children out in the dark in November is appalling too,how would people working in warm offices like to be told to go and stand in the street an hour before works ends so the place can be cleaned.!!!!!!!!!!!!more disrespect for children.
Do you not think that is an extremely cynical attitude, don't trust child minders, don't trust crèches. All child care is a services you pay for just like any other services, just because they make money does not preclude them from being run in a professional and caring manor.
Its as if you believe everyone involved in childcare has some sort of underhand reason for doing it, or are only doing it because thy have no other way of making money.0 -
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In all walks of life there are people in the wrong jobs - Doctors who wanted to be architects but they followed in the family tradition, childcare workers who are qualified teachers but cant get jobs. There are some who are in childcare because its the only job they can get and they need to pay rent. There are some childcare workers who adore early childhood work and its clearly their dream job. For those, its tough, but satisfying and rewarding.
Some parents don't want to see issues with their crèche, because its a nightmare to change to another that may or may not be worse. I can understand that. And I can understand the horror when you hear of a child get mistreated - and worse, you are paying a bill bigger than your mortgage and stumble into a dark room to find your child scared and crying and alone.
Childcare workers can argue that even parents get worked up sometimes etc. Yes we do. It's children's job to push our buttons.
But when you pay a professional organisation, you expect professionalism. I may be a tad lax about, say, my dental health, I probably could floss more, but I expect my dentist to do a proper job on my teeth because I'm paying him to do so. Similarly the argument that childcare workers are poorly paid - I sympathise, but I dont accept that because I hand over a steep sum of money to my dentist surgery that because they pay my dentist peanuts, that he can do a slapdash job on my fillings. When someone comes to my workplace, its my job to be professional to that client, no matter what frustration I have that my career is a dead-end or that I'm badly paid.
In our crèche, I can clearly see many devoted, interested workers. They have studied early childcare, taken on additional fetac courses, they have a genuine interest in their charges, and in their career. And there are one or two I suspect, that its just a rent-paying job for. And I hope that the crèche is sufficiently well run, and have standards, and enough dedicated peers doing the job properly which keep the less devoted staff from breaking workplace best-practice and guidelines for an easy life.0 -
Paydaybonus wrote: »Huge turnover of staff does not mean one owner for 30 years!
You're very biased in this discussion Lazygal as you were in a creche when younger, you are a montessori teacher and your children are in a creche. It's not an objective view as you don't have any personal experience other than paid childcare.
Actually, I do. My mother changed careers later on and was home with us every afternoon after school. My children are with a childminder, not in a crèche, for myriad reasons. I'm not biased as I don't work as a Montessori teacher anymore, but I do have experience of early childhood education and disinterested staff are not the norm. These days a lot of training is required, such as needing a certain FETAC level to operate under the ECCE scheme, and there's people attending courses on first aid, classroom management and loads of other things every weekend.0 -
Most people would not choose creche work if they had any other options.Those going on from school and taking childcare courses are doing so because they have a poor leaving cert,why would anyone choose to change nappies and wipe noses in rotation for a very basic wage,no career progression and long,long working days.
Anyone remember the Primetime expose,that was filmed in one of the most expensive creches in the country,does anyone actually believe what went on isnt going on in other creches around the country,honestly,folks,wake up.0 -
Most people would not choose creche work if they had any other options.Those going on from school and taking childcare courses are doing so because they have a poor leaving cert,why would anyone choose to change nappies and wipe noses in rotation for a very basic wage,no career progression and long,long working
I have to disagree with you here. Could you not say nursing is the same?? Changing nappies, long days and wiping noses? I got accepted into chemical engineering in trinity... And also law school... But I chose a "caring" profession as it's what I "wanted" to do at the time. Could the same not be said for early childcare professionals?0 -
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Most people would not choose creche work if they had any other options.Those going on from school and taking childcare courses are doing so because they have a poor leaving cert,why would anyone choose to change nappies and wipe noses in rotation for a very basic wage,no career progression and long,long working days.
Anyone remember the Primetime expose,that was filmed in one of the most expensive creches in the country,does anyone actually believe what went on isnt going on in other creches around the country,honestly,folks,wake up.
Actually you are wrong.
I was speaking to a worker in my creche yesterday who has a degree in social care, has fully accredited FETAC childcare qualifications and first aid trained as CPD and absolutely adores her job. In 4 years she progressed from being a junior staffer to Room team leader and is now going to open up her own creche and become her own boss. And she will be brilliant at it too!
Similarly nurses wipe arses and noses, work really hard on long unsociable shifts because they genuinely love their careers. I couldnt do it myself, but instead of writing off all childcare workers who are too stupid or lazy to work at something else, I see with my own eyes the ones that love their job, and the ones that dont. And just like any other job, the lazy bored ones wont last that long, or progress in their careers.
I watched that primetime programme. I discussed it with our creche -workers and management. I downloaded the HSE report for our creche, and read it thoroughly. And I noted that the crèche had implemented the minor recommendations requested by the HSE Inspector within a month. My partner and I make a point of occasionally taking a half day and doing a spontaneous pick up or drop off, and can usually observe how they work for a few moments without them noticing me. I asked them about how they discipline their children. They inform parents of new staff changes.0 -
If creche staff had enough points for nursing that is the route they would take.
What caring profession did you choose sligo !,speech therapists and consultants are caring professions but good well paying jobs too.
Nursing training is very demanding and and nurses are far better paid than creche staff,the work is also more varied and more respected.
I wouldnt be happy about my dd doing nursing training but I would actively discourage her from any sort of childcare work except teaching,it is simply dead end,slaving away for little or nothing while the creche owner pockets the fees.0 -
If creche staff had enough points for nursing that is the route they would take.
What caring profession did you choose sligo !,speech therapists and consultants are caring professions but good well paying jobs too.
Nursing training is very demanding and and nurses are far better paid than creche staff,the work is also more varied and more respected.
I wouldnt be happy about my dd doing nursing training but I would actively discourage her from any sort of childcare work except teaching,it is simply dead end,slaving away for little or nothing while the creche owner pockets the fees.
A friend of mine works in a creche, she has no desire to be a nurse. She loves babies and young kids so it seemed like an obvious career route for her.
I work in a very low paid job in the social care sector - left a very high paid and perk filled profession to do so - and I put up with the crap wages because I love what I do. Not everyone uses money as a yardstick for job satisfaction.0 -
Most people would not choose creche work if they had any other options.Those going on from school and taking childcare courses are doing so because they have a poor leaving cert,why would anyone choose to change nappies and wipe noses in rotation for a very basic wage,no career progression and long,long working days.
Anyone remember the Primetime expose,that was filmed in one of the most expensive creches in the country,does anyone actually believe what went on isnt going on in other creches around the country,honestly,folks,wake up.
Not withstanding what you said the crèche should still be run in a professional manner, my youngest was in a crèche part time before she went to school, I did not expect the staff to love her the way we did, it was child minding not a replacement for parenting. I expected her to be looked after in a competent manner.
There seem to be a lot resistance to viewing childcare in a professional way, I would view childcare as a profession you have to have qualifications to work in a crèche.0 -
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If creche staff had enough points for nursing that is the route they would take.
No. Not all of them. I know plenty who would hate nursing but love working with little children. Its a massive generalisation.
And if you don't get the points for nursing you can do a PLC course or apply as a mature student. Or study in the UK where they use other methods to evaluate eligibility and CAO points are only part of that evaluation if at all.0 -
Nursing and childcare are two totally different careers anyway, don't see the connection between them at all. Its like saying someone who doesn't get the points for veterinary will then apply for a job in the zoo.0
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If creche staff had enough points for nursing that is the route they would take.
What caring profession did you choose sligo !,speech therapists and consultants are caring professions but good well paying jobs too.
Nursing training is very demanding and and nurses are far better paid than creche staff,the work is also more varied and more respected.
I wouldnt be happy about my dd doing nursing training but I would actively discourage her from any sort of childcare work except teaching,it is simply dead end,slaving away for little or nothing while the creche owner pockets the fees.
I used nursing as an example of a caring profession as you referred to crèche workers as working long days and changing nappies which is tbh a big part of nursing aswell (aswell as all the other stuff). Consultants and speech therapists do not do this.
Perhaps I didn't articulate myself very well, but the point I was trying to make after reading your (quite judgemental post) was that... People don't always chose a career based on leaving cert points alone. What they actually "want" to do does come into it aswell. Well it did with me anyway as I demonstrated in my previous post. And I am sure there are many many childcare professionals who would be the same. Ie. who are not jus in their career due to a poor leaving cert or limited other options.0 -
Most people would not choose creche work if they had any other options.Those going on from school and taking childcare courses are doing so because they have a poor leaving cert,why would anyone choose to change nappies and wipe noses in rotation for a very basic wage,no career progression and long,long working days.
Anyone remember the Primetime expose,that was filmed in one of the most expensive creches in the country,does anyone actually believe what went on isnt going on in other creches around the country,honestly,folks,wake up.
I would certainly hope chucking a child on a mat and staff stuck to their phones all day is very much the exception rather than the rule. The same with the op's child being left on their own.0 -
There is obviously a link between professionalism in childcare and the quality of care, one of the major point is that the childcare workers themselves have to view their qualifications, and their work environment in a professional manner.
Childcare workers should not be cleaning the crèche ( except for a bit of tiding up) cleaners should be employed. All mandatory training should be paid for by the crèche and the childcare workers should be fully paid while on training.0 -
Jeez guys, we pay enough for child care! expect and demand a level of care delivered professionally. Working in a creche should not be a low paid job or a job thats easy to get - demand more.
OP, its a shame you did not carry your son out of the creche there and then. Imagine the storm, if the child they left unattended was gone!!
As far as punishment goes, time out is fair. Your little guy did hit or push another kid, think how that kid and its parents would feel. But time is it - not isolation in a darkened room without supervision. Kick up a fuss on that issue only if you are otherwise happy, if you have any doubts go elsewhere.0 -
Creches are a great way of making money very easily. The fees are massive, the wages are minimum, the qualifications required are VERY minimum. The child-to-supervisor ratios are VERY generous and getting even moreso, and the demand is growing every day.
http://ec.europa.eu/social/BlobServlet?docId=2803&langId=en
As per the OP's issue, shortcuts will always be taken in an economic model such as this. When you compete on price, costs will be cut. What costs? The biggest one of all.....salaries.0 -
Waylon Fierce Animal wrote: »Mid way through the room I heard crying IN the room and I looked over to my left and there was my son, sitting on a chair in the dusky light and wearing his coat and hat.
I Immediately picked him up and cuddled him, wiping his tears away. There was nobody else in the room with him.
My wife looks after our two children, at considerable expense to us as a family. No expensive holidays, we haven't been for a night out in three years. We have one cheap car. I get the bus to work and eat sandwiches out of a tesco sandwich bad. Reading this reminds me of why we live as we do.
Honestly, honestly, I couldn't sit a minute in work thinking our two beautiful babies were being left alone in a dark room crying, not for a minute, not for a second. None of it would be worth it, not one euro would be worth it.
No one will care as much about our children as we do, nor would I expect them too. They are, quite frankly, a pain in the ass to look after....frantic, messy, loud, annoying. No one really takes to them. They would be first into the dark room. I see them every morning and every evening and all weekend but it's still not enough though they drive me mental.
Four years and then they are in school and gone. Four years. That's all.0 -
gesty kearns wrote: »My wife looks after our two children, at considerable expense to us as a family. No expensive holidays, we haven't been for a night out in three years. We have one cheap car. I get the bus to work and eat sandwiches out of a tesco sandwich bad. Reading this reminds me of why we live as we do.
Honestly, honestly, I couldn't sit a minute in work thinking our two beautiful babies were being left alone in a dark room crying, not for a minute, not for a second. None of it would be worth it, not one euro would be worth it.
No one will care as much about our children as we do, nor would I expect them too. They are, quite frankly, a pain in the ass to look after....frantic, messy, loud, annoying. No one really takes to them. They would be first into the dark room. I see them every morning and every evening and all weekend but it's still not enough though they drive me mental.
Four years and then they are in school and gone. Four years. That's all.
Please don't sit in judgement of any parents who have to or choose to work. The OP is asking for advice on the treatment of her child by the creche, not looking for a lecture on parenting.
My 3 year old twins are in a creche, they went to a childminder at 6 weeks old when I went back to work. I work out of necessity, I work to provide for my family, as does my husband. If you are lucky enough to be able to manage on one wage then that's great for you but not everyone has that luxury.0 -
gesty kearns wrote: »My wife looks after our two children, at considerable expense to us as a family. No expensive holidays, we haven't been for a night out in three years. We have one cheap car. I get the bus to work and eat sandwiches out of a tesco sandwich bad. Reading this reminds me of why we live as we do.
Honestly, honestly, I couldn't sit a minute in work thinking our two beautiful babies were being left alone in a dark room crying, not for a minute, not for a second. None of it would be worth it, not one euro would be worth it.
No one will care as much about our children as we do, nor would I expect them too. They are, quite frankly, a pain in the ass to look after....frantic, messy, loud, annoying. No one really takes to them. They would be first into the dark room. I see them every morning and every evening and all weekend but it's still not enough though they drive me mental.
Four years and then they are in school and gone. Four years. That's all.
Your kids are frantic, messy, loud and annoying, noone takes to them, and they drive you mental? Jeez, and you give out about other people's parenting methods?
And they are not gone when they get to school. School is a short day, with the whole summer off, easter off, christmas off, and several mid term breaks. They don't just fend for themselves from age 4 onwards.
I do know that in schools, girls who are not performing well are either offered "Hair or Care". I remember it myself... It was a running joke after coming out of the career guidance office. Completely unsuitable girls being encouraged into this, along with those who genuinely had an interest. It's a mixed bag, and we do need to be vigilant for who exactly you get.
Care could be either childcare, or elderly care. And this is why it's important to make "care" be something that is taken seriously as a career. Our children, ourselves, our spouses, our parents... Someone we love, at some stage is going to be in some sort of care. There are fantastic people out there doing a brilliant job, and there are the coasters.0 -
What did you decide to do? Did you speak to the manager?Waylon Fierce Animal wrote: »The door was wide open between the hallway and the room is at the end of this hallway. He could have wandered off through the crèche with nobody watching him :mad:0 -
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Update please OP. What was the outcome?0
This discussion has been closed.
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