**ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER RELATED** Part 2 - MOD WARNING IN OP

Cuttlefish

VinLieger wrote: »

Sigh trotting out the same old "paying for water twice" mantra that's is just a logical fallacy, we pay income tax, VAT and whatever else that happens to go toward's water. It won't going forward and we have had reduction's to compensate for it and will get more next year.

A hell of a lot of people don't pay these taxes and are getting water for free explain that?

You all will be crying foul again when you have no drinkable water in your houses 10 years from now.

Read back through earlier posts someone mentioned a hike in VAT and Motor Tax when water rates were scrapped before so yes we are

And

Dont scare monger please

moxin

I do not want to pay for water in any way

And remember those 150,000 all have relatives who could not march for various reasons(lazyness, in work, ill health, elderly etc) so the likely number who oppose water charges is much higher. The lack of registering with Irish Water confirms that.

dxhound2005

gladrags wrote: »

"Bertie got elected three times in a row and ruled for 15 years along with biffo.He knew how to run a country and satisfy the voters."

From a tent in Galway.

You shouldn't scoff. He gave the people what they wanted. Way above inflation increases for the pensioners every year. And bonanza time for Child Benefit. SSIA's out their ears. And they rewarded him.

Enda keeps taking money off the people and they don't like it. So he will have to go.

moxin

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Just in, if true..
https://www.facebook.com/thelandleague/posts/1487790678163993?fref=nf

Affects Donaghmede,Edenmore,Baldoyle,Kilbarack,Raheny & Coolock according to the campaign group.

The Land League have been informed this evening from a reliable source within the Government that Irish Water have been instructed to withdraw GMC SERRA from installing any further water meters in Estates where public orders has broken down
The Garda have been told to stand down in areas where there have been allegations of heavy policing
In coolock Garda District the 30 man Garda special riot unit Established and operating for the last 3 Months whose actions are alleged to have escalated tensions and added to the unrest within the northside housing estates has also been stood down.

THE LAND LEAGUE has supported Peaceful Protest and welcomes the government clime down and truce which resulted in the withdrawal of GMC SERRA vans from Problem estates with effect from Thursday morning 6 November.
Tension increased on Wednesday evening following the granting of court orders to GMC SERRA in the fore Courts which were unenforceable and fears grew that the Court orders were going to escalate and raise tension even further.
It is understood the decision was taken late on Wednesday Evening after the Taoiseach and his official car became a target in Santry with ugly scenes developing later outside Coolock Garda Station.

They were absent today I believe.

Geuze

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Excluding the medical card, prescription subsidies, hospital fee cap of €100, free eye tests, free dental check ups and back to school allowance there are a few other things.

The problem is that you are likely a PAYE worker and so you will see very little of the above but pay for it anyway. In much the same way you currently pay for water you don't use. You are disgruntled because you think you don't get value for money. You are right. Other people get it instead because we are an overly generous welfare state where some people can give all and get nothing and others can give nothing and take all. And we will continue to be so as long as we have such a narrow tax base.

Yes, I know retired couples on 50,000 paying under 10% income tax, with med cards, travel passes, household benefits package, and now 100 off their water charges.

The average worker may face a 52% marginal tax rate over 32,800, but many other people pay very low effective taxes.

Irish Steve

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

twowheelsgood wrote: »

No, it is simply that the rational for citing that most countries charge directly for water appears to be too subtle for those who respond to this point. The imagine that the argument being made is that “if every other country does it we should do”, which would of course be a preposterous reason for doing anything and they can readily dismiss this as the nonsense argument that it is.

But of course, that is not the argument that is being put. If you argue, as some do, that funding water services from central taxation is the most suitable way to proceed then you are logically bound to make the arguments for such an approach and counter the arguments against.

And if what you believe is at odds with normal practice everywhere else then you need to argue that everybody else has it wrong (and explain why) or perhaps make a case that there is something unique about Ireland which makes our choice of opting for the unusual the correct one. Or some other credible explanation. So such arguments have been made; instead the straw man is wheeled out.

I think I mentioned earlier that there are specific EU directives that leave very few alternatives to having a meter based consumption charging system for water, the objectives being to ensure that the use of water does not become unmanageable due to excessive inappropriate use.

Those same directives are also aiming towards ensuring adequate funding for the treatment of water to ensure it is potable, and that waste water has been treated to ensure that it does not cause harm to the environment.

The only unique aspects of Ireland are that it is the most remote island country in the EU, with the poorest and most expensive communication links to the rest of the community, which means that EVERYTHING imported into this country is automatically significantly more expensive than the same product in other countries.

It's getting away from the core subject of the thread, but the only way we're going to see things really improve is by increasing the quantity and value of goods (preferably REAL goods) that we produce and export to other countries. Financial services are all very well, but I'm not convinced that there's the same value added return that there is on real products.

I'm just sitting here watching the news, and Ireland is not the only country in the EU with problems, there's been riots on the streets in Brussels this evening, protests over austerity plans became violent, as Belgium's new government tries to bring in measure to reduce public spending. Clearly there are problems for more than just Ireland with the way that the European adventure is developing. Clearly, the political leadership is having problems persuading the people that their direction and plans are required and acceptable. Thought provoking, given that the same sentiments were being expressed about the American system only yesterday.

Geuze

Tinkersbell wrote: »

Is it normal practice in other countries to have a USC on top of all other income taxes?
Is it normal to have a 23% vat rate?
Is it normal to have to shell out the guts of €1,000 per child on books, uniform etc to send them to school each year?
Is it normal to pay €50 to visit a GP?
Is it normal to be charged an illegal VRT on a car, and VAT on top of that?
Are all these things normal in other countries? Take our nearest neighbour, the one that's referenced on here a lot, the UK.
Are all these things normal there?

These are all fair points.

But it's also true that many people here pay very low effective direct tax rates.

I know couples on 50k paying under 10% direct tax, way below other countries.

Stargate

I do not want to pay for water in any way

moxin wrote: »

Just in, if true..
https://www.facebook.com/thelandleague/posts/1487790678163993?fref=nf

Affects Donaghmede,Edenmore,Baldoyle,Kilbarack,Raheny & Coolock according to the campaign group.


They were absent today I believe.

Was watching that develop , the end of the article says contact

JERRY BEADES
SPOKESPERSON FOR THE LAND LEAGUE for info.

Is this statement true i wonder ?

My name is URL

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

Stargate wrote: »

Was watching that develop , the end of the article says contact

JERRY BEADES
SPOKESPERSON FOR THE LAND LEAGUE for info.

Is this statement true i wonder ?

I'm gonna say no

The Garda have been told to stand down

That just sounds like such a bullshitty thing to say!

Irish Steve

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

Tinkersbell wrote: »

Is it normal practice in other countries to have a USC on top of all other income taxes?
Is it normal to have a 23% vat rate?
Is it normal to have to shell out the guts of €1,000 per child on books, uniform etc to send them to school each year?
Is it normal to pay €50 to visit a GP?
Is it normal to be charged an illegal VRT on a car, and VAT on top of that?
Are all these things normal in other countries? Take our nearest neighbour, the one that's referenced on here a lot, the UK.
Are all these things normal there?

Can't answer all of the above instantly and in full, but here goes.

USC is a specific name for Ireland, and it's hard to be sure, but there are "special" charges in a number of countries

VAT rates across Europe vary between (standard rate) 18 and 25 %, so yes, a 23% VAT rate is not exceptional when looked at in comparison to the rest of Europe, the vast majority of the rates in Europe are between 21 and 25%

School uniforms are a cost in every country, books vary, and it's changing here, my daughter's school have started a book rental scheme this year, and realistically, all second level schools should be using computer based books at this stage, on either laptop or tablets, the whole issue of dragging many kilos of books around is outdated and inappropriate.

VRT. Not going to defend that at all, I just wish someone with the funds to do it would challenge it in the courts, or the European courts. and get the politicians put back in their place. VRT is a cause of accidents, as is the crazy policy of charging road tax based on engine size, the combination of these 2 taxes means that we get poor spec underpowered cars in this country compared to other countries in order to make them saleable with the extra tax.

VAT on cars is standard across Europe,

Medical fees, it's supposed to be changing, it isn't at the moment because the whole health issue is a tangled mess that needs sorting as urgently as IW, in that the HSE is a similar quango that should never have been created in the way it was, but the relevant politicians didn't have the cojones to take the unions on over the over staffing that resulted from merging 8 health boards into the HSE.

Crazy, we're a country of less than 5 million, 8 health boards was insane levels of inappropriate management, and merging it into the HSE solved nothing. It needs to be changed, as does the whole crazy process of charging insurance companies for hospital treatments etc, the cost of all that bureaucracy is crazy, as is the cost of administering all the different health insurers, and all it does is push up the total cost of providing health services.

It needs to be fundamentally changed to get rid of the waste, and make health free at the point of delivery, with the manner in which it is funded being changed to remove the unnecessary overhead of the VHI and private insurers with their associated (significant) costs. Then there's the issue of getting full value for money from the specialised sectors of health, which in most cases means that they should be available 24/7, which means a massive culture change for the service providers, as many areas don't operate outside of 9 to 5 Monday to Friday. If that aspect was changed, we'd see better results all round.

As I've mentioned earlier, Ireland is the most expensive country in Europe for many items because of the massive cost of importing just about everything across that 60 or so miles of water from the UK, or even further from the rest of Europe. That's before we then start paying the mark up for items imposed by the local suppliers, which in some cases are absurd, and I will be the first to admit that I order a lot more from outside of Ireland, simply because I either can't get the item here from stock, or if I can, it's twice the price of the item from other places. If it's not in stock, I don't see paying a supposed local stockist a significant margin for ordering the item in from outside of Ireland when I can do exactly the same for half the price and the same delivery time scale.

The whole IW issue has stirred the country up in a way that's caught many by surprise, and in many respects, it is a good thing, and if it means that people become more politically aware, and start asking the questions, rather than just accepting the candidates put forward by the parties, maybe, just maybe, Ireland has at last matured and become a democracy that can regain control of it's democracy, which would mean that for the first time in a long time, the people will regain the power that had been usurped by the political elite. It's not before time, but it's taken some pretty crass mistakes by that same political elite to get people to rise up and say "enough is enough".

Stargate

I do not want to pay for water in any way

moxin wrote: »

Just in, if true..
https://www.facebook.com/thelandleague/posts/1487790678163993?fref=nf

Affects Donaghmede,Edenmore,Baldoyle,Kilbarack,Raheny & Coolock according to the campaign group.


They were absent today I believe.

Stargate wrote: »

Was watching that develop , the end of the article says contact

JERRY BEADES
SPOKESPERSON FOR THE LAND LEAGUE for info.

Is this statement true i wonder ?

My name is URL wrote: »

I'm gonna say no



That just sounds like such a bullshitty thing to say!

https://twitter.com/Independent_ie/status/530513928556920832

queensinead

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

You just don't get it do you - or you're deliberately choosing not to (personally I'm guessing the latter)

- Most people who have a problem with this mess, don't actually have a problem with the concept of paying for water

- Most people know the infrastructure is a mess and that it will cost more money than they presently get through general taxation to fix

- People DO have a major problem however with paying for another incompetent quango stuffed with government hangers-on and which has a bonus structure that proposes to reward underperforming staff - something which would get them put on Performance Improvement Plans in the real world

- People DO have a problem with the threats and blackmail used by this incompetent entity to try and get people to register as "customers"

- People DO have a problem with an entity that has already shown itself to be incompetent in handling people's personal data while demanding more of it

- People DO have a problem with a government that - despite all the above - still seems (at cabinet/senior level anyway) intent on pushing this through

Thankfully though, the deeper Enda, Joan and the others dig in, the more they split their own parties. They won't have to worry about protests escalating further the way things are going.. their own colleagues will force an end to it yet - because regardless of party affiliation, there's nothing a TD in this country values more than their seat at the table.

Maybe you don't, but lots of protesters actually do have a very big problem "with the concept of paying for water"

There is no one clear message

Protesters are protesting with different emphasis and want different things, judging by interviews with protesters by the media on Saturday

Some protesters agree with having metered water but are disgusted with the quango Irish Water

Others said they were paying for water already through tax, and won't pay another penny

Some think water is a free natural resource

Others said they agree with meters and pay-per-use, but that it was way too dear in its present format, and anyway would probably end up being much more expensive than the official line

Others were totally focused on PPS numbers

Others just seemed to want to bring down the government at all costs and had another larger political agenda beyond water

So there are lots of different issues and agendas among protesters

I don't think anyone can say "People don't have a problem with X...People do have a problem with Y"

It depends on what "people" you're talking about

Stargate

I do not want to pay for water in any way

The installation of water meters in trouble spots in Dublin has been halted in the wake of protests turning violent, the Irish Independent has learned.

" The move comes as the Coalition is "actively examining" a toughening up of the water charges regime, to allow the deduction of payment from the salaries and social welfare of householders who refuse to pay their bills "

Link
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/water/water-protests-infiltrated-by-dissidents-as-meters-on-hold-30725389.html

S.O

Stargate wrote: »

The installation of water meters in trouble spots in Dublin has been halted in the wake of protests turning violent, the Irish Independent has learned.

" The move comes as the Coalition is "actively examining" a toughening up of the water charges regime, to allow the deduction of payment from the salaries and social welfare of householders who refuse to pay their bills "

Link
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/water/water-protests-infiltrated-by-dissidents-as-meters-on-hold-30725389.html

Besides alan kelly coming out and saying no ones water is going to be cut off or pressure reduced, ministers appear to rule out involving the revenue, so as to how they are going to deduct money from source without the revenue to help them? appears like a empty threat this talk of deducting money from source to Intimidate people.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/water/ministers-rule-out-revenue-role-in-collection-of-water-charges-30722771.html

Barely There

queensinead wrote: »

So there are lots of different issues and agendas among protesters

I suspect most of them don't actually know what they're marching about at all, other than a sense of anger about austerity measures and disenchantment with the current political system.

I heard the Shinner McDonald on the radio yesterday evening. Sweep away the bluster and the SF solution to provision of water is to increase income taxes - is this what most protestors want?
Other than the profession SW class, who are used to getting everything paid for by others, I doubt it.

You can blather on all you want about water being a "Human right", but guess what - someone needs to pay for it, the question is who.
The hard-left 'solution' as per usual is to take more away from those who work and give more to those who don't.

Ghost Buster

Barely There wrote: »

I suspect most of them don't actually know what they're marching about at all, other than a sense of anger about austerity measures and disenchantment with the current political system.

I heard the Shinner McDonald on the radio yesterday evening. Sweep away the bluster and the SF solution to provision of water is to increase income taxes - is this what most protestors want?
Other than the profession SW class, who are used to getting everything paid for by others, I doubt it.

You can blather on all you want about water being a "Human right", but guess what - someone needs to pay for it, the question is who.
The hard-left 'solution' as per usual is to take more away from those who work and give more to those who don't.

Bizarre first line. Silly people dont know what they are protesting about followed by you a crediting them with a perfectly reasonable and wide spread reason for many of the protester to exist in the first place.

shinzon

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Barely There wrote: »

I suspect most of them don't actually know what they're marching about at all, other than a sense of anger about austerity measures and disenchantment with the current political system.

I heard the Shinner McDonald on the radio yesterday evening. Sweep away the bluster and the SF solution to provision of water is to increase income taxes - is this what most protestors want?
Other than the profession SW class, who are used to getting everything paid for by others, I doubt it.

You can blather on all you want about water being a "Human right", but guess what - someone needs to pay for it, the question is who.
The hard-left 'solution' as per usual is to take more away from those who work and give more to those who don't.

That's a rather sweeping generalisation of the protestors to be fair, im one of them and I can assure you we all know what were marching against.

Shin

VinLieger

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

shinzon wrote: »

That's a rather sweeping generalisation of the protestors to be fair, im one of them and I can assure you we all know what were marching against.

Shin

And that's also an incredibly sweeping statement, you can assure us that every single protestor marching knows what they are marching for and isn't just a sheep? There isn't one person in the country jumping on the bandwagon? How do you know this, did you talk to all of them?

Barely There

shinzon wrote: »

That's a rather sweeping generalisation

shinzon wrote: »

I can assure you we all know what were marching against.

:D:D:D

You obviously don't know how 'sweeping generalisations' work. I used the word 'suspect' making it clear I was expressing my opionion about the matter.

Anyhow, why don't you tell us why you, (and all the other people you're apparently able to speak for) were marching?

Ghost Buster

VinLieger wrote: »

And that's also an incredibly sweeping statement, you can assure us that every single protestor marching knows what they are marching for and isn't just a sheep? There isn't one person in the country jumping on the bandwagon? How do you know this, did you talk to all of them?

Psssst. Burden of proof. Barely There made an assertion as to the motives or lack of of many of the protesters. HE needs to give some basis for his hunch

shinzon

I do not want to pay for water in any way

so let me ask you this percentage wise how many do you think were sheep marching at the protest seens as you think you know everything about it

and as regards what people were marching about simple the abolition of water charges and Irish Water nothing more complicated then that as evidenced by every single banner poster chant t shirt etc etc that was on show

Shin

ROCKMAN

I do not want to pay for water in any way

VinLieger wrote: »

And that's also an incredibly sweeping statement, you can assure us that every single protestor marching knows what they are marching for and isn't just a sheep? There isn't one person in the country jumping on the bandwagon? How do you know this, did you talk to all of them?

Surely the use of this term is more fitting for the pro Water Charges Brigade ,,


I suspect

Banjo String

I do not want to pay for water in any way

The Indo is now trying to imply that the halt in water meter installations in some parts of Dublin is due to protester's being infiltrated by 'dissident republicans'.

I attended a few protests, and if they want to class middle aged homeowners, OAPs, business men, doctors, children and students as dissident, they may be on to something.

It's convenient and a coincidence that they're the only news group claiming this. It is also convenient and a coincidence that the Indo is controlled by Dennis OBrien, who (coincidentally) controls GMC Sierra, the group rewarded the contract to install the water meters.

Serious backlash to the story in the comments section.

The public see through this.

Good way to save face though FG and Labour.

Another climb down. Keep up the pressure.

Barely There

shinzon wrote: »

and as regards what people were marching about simple the abolition of water charges and Irish Water

So you think everyone marching wants to stick with a model whereby water is paid for through income taxation out of central exchequer funding, with the amount to be spent decided by the Minister of Finance, based on how much votes he thinks spending on capital investment will win him at the next GE?

i.e. the current funding model which has seen us end up with a creaking system which has been under-invested in for decades?


If this is what people are marching for, then Christ help us a society.

gladrags

I do not want to pay for water in any way

VinLieger wrote: »

And that's also an incredibly sweeping statement, you can assure us that every single protestor marching knows what they are marching for and isn't just a sheep? There isn't one person in the country jumping on the bandwagon? How do you know this, did you talk to all of them?

Who is "us"?

You clearly have taken it upon youself to speak form them.

How do you know did you talk to all of them?

Whoever they are.

VinLieger

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

gladrags wrote: »

Who is "us"?

You clearly have taken it upon youself to speak form them.

How do you know did you talk to all of them?

Whoever they are.

Oh get your head out of your ass, us mean's anyone participating in the thread as you well know.

gladrags

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Banjo String wrote: »

The Indo is now trying to imply that the halt in water meter installations in some parts of Dublin is due to protester's being infiltrated by 'dissident republicans'.

I attended a few protests, and if they want to class middle aged homeowners, OAPs, business men, doctors, children and students as dissident, they may be on to something.

It's convenient and a coincidence that they're the only news group claiming this. It is also convenient and a coincidence that the Indo is controlled by Dennis OBrien, who (coincidentally) controls GMC Sierra, the group rewarded the contract to install the water meters.

Serious backlash to the story in the comments section.

The public see through this.

Good way to save face though FG and Labour.

Another climb down. Keep up the pressure.

Nothing new there.

When the Sindo realised the public support against,they jumped on the bandwagon.

It was a question of when they would try this.

It always has been an agenda ridden rag.

Factualism is not the priority.

_Kaiser_

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Barely There wrote: »

If this is what people are marching for, then Christ help us a society.

As opposed to those who are still defending an incompetent, wasteful billing agency that can't even get its message out without making a balls of it, and already proving itself as incapable of properly managing "customer" data - never mind the whole bonus arrangements.

Supported by a government that is currently tearing itself apart as the senior level pigheadedly try to force it through anyway, and can't even do that without contradicting each other multiple times per day

Yea, supporting that setup makes a lot of sense alright!

gladrags

I do not want to pay for water in any way

VinLieger wrote: »

Oh get your head out of your ass, us mean's anyone participating in the thread as you well know.

You don't speak for me,as far as I am aware,you represent your own opinion,you do not speak for others or...

"anyone participating in the thread"

Such hypocrisy.

moxin

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Barely There wrote: »

The hard-left 'solution' as per usual is to take more away from those who work and give more to those who don't.

Its already paid for out of VAT and motor tax. Income tax for the top rate was recently cut by 1%, seeing as you say that there is no money for funding, where did the money come from to fund this?

Barely There

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Yea, supporting that setup makes a lot of sense alright!

Yep, supporting the transfer of managing critical infrastructure out of the political system into a dedicated body with responsibility for funding and maintaining investment in it does make a lot of sense.

The reality of the set-up of IW has left a lot to be desired, mainly due to political incompetence - which is all the more reason to transfer responsibility of our water-infrastructure away from these people.

If posters on here are to be believed however, everybody marching are basically campaigning for the status-quo to be maintained.
A mixed-message of 'I hate the politicians, they're all incompetent/corrupt, but I still want them to be in charge of our water-infrastructure'.

Go figure

Cantona's Collars

I agree with metered water charges

All this talk of "if we don't have a charge for water,then who is going to pay for it" is nonsense.The money has always been there & now with the property tax there's more available.It's not the people's fault that for decades we've seen monumental wastes of money while the water network was neglected & even now with this new "company" there's still no promise of nationwide upgrades.

Red Pepper

I do not want to pay for water in any way

I work in PR and I have some friends that are working close to the government. I am hearing that there is a huge drive this week to fill the media with non Irish Water stories - everything and anything to get Irish Water off the headlines. For example, the timing of new job announcements and FF/bailout letters last/this week isn't coincidental. The government are really scared this time. It's interesting.

Barely There

moxin wrote: »

Its already paid for out of VAT and motor tax. Income tax for the top rate was recently cut by 1%, seeing as you say that there is no money for funding, where did the money come from to fund this?

We can choose whatever way we want to fund water provision.
Personally I'm in favour of the introduction of separate metered-charging and ideally a coincident reduction in income taxation.

VinLieger

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

gladrags wrote: »

You don't speak for me,as far as I am aware,you represent your own opinion,you do not speak for others or...

"anyone participating in the thread"

Such hypocrisy.

Nice derailing there btw to deflect from someone making sweeping generalisation's. Did I claim to speak for anyone else? No I didn't, so again get your head out of your ass.

Creative Juices

Red Pepper wrote: »

I work in PR and I have some friends that are working close to the government. I am hearing that there is a huge drive this week to fill the media with non Irish Water stories - everything and anything to get Irish Water off the headlines. For example, the timing of new job announcements and FF/bailout letters last/this week isn't coincidental. The government are really scared this time. It's interesting.

I am surprised this government have a PR department. Coming off the back of arguably the worst FF government in the history of the state, it is hard to fathom how badly wrong FG and Labour have got it. They have just plodded from one crisis or screw-up to another.

Cantona's Collars

I agree with metered water charges

Barely There wrote: »

We can choose whatever way we want to fund water provision.
Personally I'm in favour of the introduction of separate metered-charging and ideally a coincident reduction in income taxation.

We all know a reduction in taxation won't happen,look at what was said during the budget over the USC (which was meant to be temporary)
I've said it before & I'll say it again - even a portion of the USC would more than fund water provision.

moxin

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Barely There wrote: »

We can choose whatever way we want to fund water provision.
Personally I'm in favour of the introduction of separate metered-charging and ideally a coincident reduction in income taxation.

Well, your scenario hasn't happened and has not been proposed by FG\Lab. Dropping the top rate of tax by 1% does nothing for those whose income is nowhere near to qualify for it.(its a large chunk of people)

VinLieger

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

Barely There wrote: »

We can choose whatever way we want to fund water provision.
Personally I'm in favour of the introduction of separate metered-charging and ideally a coincident reduction in income taxation.

This is exactly what I am for too but anti charges people seem to have a hard on for trying to constantly imply anyone for charges is for IW cronyism

Little CuChulainn

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

Sounds like the government have decided to take stock of things and actually put some thought into the implementation of the water charges. It was stupid to try rush it through so fast.

Barely There

zerks wrote: »

I've said it before & I'll say it again - even a portion of the USC would more than fund water provision.

Given that we're currently borrowing over half a billion a month, I doubt it.

Even if we weren't, funding water out of central taxation doesn't work. If you want evidence of this, you can look at the creaking system we have now which has been funded in this manner since abolition of rates in the early 70's

Do you really trust politicians to make decision which are in the best long-term interest of society when it comes to capital investment in infrastructure, or do you think they'll spend the least amount possible and use the rest to fund give-aways budgets to try to secure their re-election 18months down the line?

I know what I'd prefer, and the current system isn't it.

_Kaiser_

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Red Pepper wrote: »

I work in PR and I have some friends that are working close to the government. I am hearing that there is a huge drive this week to fill the media with non Irish Water stories - everything and anything to get Irish Water off the headlines. For example, the timing of new job announcements and FF/bailout letters last/this week isn't coincidental. The government are really scared this time. It's interesting.

I said that yesterday in the other thread when the contents of the Trichet letter were announced, but of course the "usual suspects" tried to suggest that it was totally unrelated :rolleyes:

Creative Juices wrote: »

I am surprised this government have a PR department. Coming off the back of arguably the worst FF government in the history of the state, it is hard to fathom how badly wrong FG and Labour have got it. They have just plodded from one crisis or screw-up to another.

That's been the hallmark of Kenny's government.. do nothing except plod along and wait and see, but claim credit for any upswing as a result of a general (but apparently short-lived) improvement in Europe or private enterprise creating jobs.

As for PR.. this government have taken spin to a whole new level

shinzon

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Sounds like the government have decided to take stock of things and actually put some thought into the implementation of the water charges. It was stupid to try rush it through so fast.

There taking stock of feck all, all there doing is taking time to see if they can get away with deducting wages etc etc without using revenue if people don't pay

they'll also come out with more half arsed attempts to sweeten the pot to get people to sign up, stalling tactics is all while they run around with there arse in the wind

Shin

gladrags

I do not want to pay for water in any way

VinLieger wrote: »

And that's also an incredibly sweeping statement, you can assure US that every single protestor marching knows what they are marching for and isn't just a sheep? There isn't one person in the country jumping on the bandwagon? How do you know this, did you talk to all of them?

Here is your reply, you accused another poster of speaking for all the protesters,while at the same time,took on this mantle yourself of representing the posters on this thread,no less.Note the word US

Sad.

Prevarication ensues.

VinLieger

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

gladrags wrote: »

Here is your reply, you accused another poster of speaking for all the protesters,while at the same time,took on this mantle yourself of representing the posters on this thread,no less.Note the word US

Sad.

Prevarication ensues.

Ugh get over yourself if that's your biggest problem in the world right now you might want to turn of the computer and get a life.

Gonna take a break from this as im getting tired of beating my head against a wall and the constant attempts to derail the discussion away from what needs to be discussed and that's paying for water be it through IW or some other mean's

Streetwalker

I agree with metered water charges

Red Pepper wrote: »

I work in PR and I have some friends that are working close to the government. I am hearing that there is a huge drive this week to fill the media with non Irish Water stories - everything and anything to get Irish Water off the headlines. For example, the timing of new job announcements and FF/bailout letters last/this week isn't coincidental. The government are really scared this time. It's interesting.

It's been pretty blatant this week tbh. Some of the stuff on RTE in particular is laughable. I don't know if they have a direct line to government's PR department but it would seem like it a lot of the time. Public service broadcaster my arse.

Cantona's Collars

I agree with metered water charges

Barely There wrote: »

Given that we're currently borrowing over half a billion a month, I doubt it.

Even if we weren't, funding water out of central taxation doesn't work. If you want evidence of this, you can look at the creaking system we have now which has been funded in this manner since abolition of rates in the early 70's

Do you really trust politicians to make decision which are in the best long-term interest of society when it comes to capital investment in infrastructure, or do you think they'll spend the least amount possible and use the rest to fund give-aways budgets to try to secure their re-election 18months down the line?

I know what I'd prefer, and the current system isn't it.

Strangely,for the first time I partly agree with you regarding the government's way of doing things.Improving infrastructure has always been low on their list of priorities no matter which party was in charge.IW isn't going to cure this either,too many vested interests which even in it's embryonic stage are using it as a way to improve their lot either financially or career wise,anyone who thinks they are the good guys that will cure all that's wrong with water provision & treatment are deluded.
Politicians in this country have always been self serving & the mess that IW is is just a symptom of this.

Little CuChulainn

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

Bit more about the protest at Coolock from the Indo today.

It has emerged that known activists associated with members of the Real IRA faction, formerly led by Alan Ryan, have hijacked a series of protests on the northside of Dublin.

The violence escalated on Wednesday night outside Coolock garda station on the northside of Dublin where a large group of demonstrators, mainly comprising genuine householders protesting against the proposed charges, had gathered.

During the violence, which involved the dissidents, a garda inspector was badly attacked, a female garda had a car window smashed and a volley of missiles was fired at the garda station.

Genuine protestors need to seperate themselves from these people or their message will be lost.

moxin

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Bit more about the protest at Coolock from the Indo today.

Genuine protestors need to seperate themselves from these people or their message will be lost.

Denis O'Brien owns GMC Sierra(water meter installers) and has the biggest shareholder stake in the Indo.
Labelling a million people as part of the H2O IRA, sad to see you falling for the propaganda.

Geuze

Barely There wrote: »

I heard the Shinner McDonald on the radio yesterday evening. Sweep away the bluster and the SF solution to provision of water is to increase income taxes - is this what most protestors want?
Other than the profession SW class, who are used to getting everything paid for by others, I doubt it.

Yes, the SF budget proposes to increase income taxes, as you'd expect from a socialist party, no surprise there.

Anybody earning above 32,800 and paying pension conts would face higher income taxes.

Of course, they wouldn't have to pay water charges or LPT.

Socialist parties tend to favour higher direct income taxes rather than indirect taxes.