**ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER RELATED** Part 2 - MOD WARNING IN OP

VinLieger

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

Tinkersbell wrote: »

No.
I see water as the one basic fundamental service that a state should provide form the general tax take.
Everything else is optional.

But if it's such a vital and important fundamental resource surely conservation should be part of the basic payment model? And I don't mean at IW level's it would need to heavily subsidised as the average irish voter really doesn't understand how much water should cost but they also should be made to realise that it does cost so be more careful with it.

Tinkersbell

I do not want to pay for water in any way

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Odd that virtually no state actually does?

In other states, our closest neighbour for instance, they have free school books and free GP care.
Do you think they find it odd that we don't have these things?
Do you think they find it odd that we pay a USC on top of all the other taxes taken from our income?

I agree with metered water charges

dxhound2005

Tinkersbell wrote: »

No.
I see water as the one basic fundamental service that a state should provide form the general tax take.
Everything else is optional.

No other state except Northern Ireland see it that way. Neither did our state before 1977. And the 1977 plan will not serve for the future, when the pool who pay income tax will continue to shrink as a proportion of the population.

It has had it's day and FF have long said it was a mistake. The only parties now who see merit in it are socialists, which is odd, and even odder is their opposition to taxes on private property.

Tinkersbell

I do not want to pay for water in any way

VinLieger wrote: »

But if it's such a vital and important fundamental resource surely conservation should be part of the basic payment model? And I don't mean at IW level's it would need to heavily subsidised as the average irish voter really doesn't understand how much water should cost but they also should be made to realise that it does cost so be more careful with it.

I'm sure we can educate people on how to conserve water, how to respect our water supply and be thankful for it.
It's not all about the government taking in money you know.
Toilets could be changed for dual flush systems, more efficient appliances could be bought.
The government would see the cash from these through VAT etc.

VinLieger

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

dxhound2005 wrote: »

No other state except Northern Ireland see it that way. Neither did our state before 1977. And the 1977 plan will not serve for the future, when the pool who pay income tax will continue to shrink as a proportion of the population.

It has had it's day and FF have long said it was a mistake. The only parties now who see merit in it are socialists, which is odd, and even odder is their opposition to taxes on private property.

I love how the populist independent's are conveniently ignoring our aging population and the problem's it will inevitably bring unless we prepare correctly for the future

Tinkersbell

I do not want to pay for water in any way

dxhound2005 wrote: »

No other state except Northern Ireland see it that way. Neither did our state before 1977. And the 1977 plan will not serve for the future, when the pool who pay income tax will continue to shrink as a proportion of the population.

It has had it's day and FF have long said it was a mistake. The only parties now who see merit in it are socialists, which is odd, and even odder is their opposition to taxes on private property.

Must we follow blindly 'other states'?

twowheelsgood

Tinkersbell wrote: »

In other states, our closest neighbour for instance, they have free school books and free GP care.
Do you think they find it odd that we don't have these things?
Do you think they find it odd that we pay a USC on top of all the other taxes taken from our income?

I expect the only thing they would find odd (if they were troubled to have any opinion) is that we buck the trend in terms of how we finance Water.

And if they were familiar with the dire state of our finances I sincerely doubt that we would pay a tax that they do not have.

Little CuChulainn

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

Tinkersbell wrote: »

No.
Conservation is a good idea but there's no incentive to conserve with the set up as it is.
If people don't use enough water the company can apply for an increase in rates.
This is Ireland, this is what will happen.
This is the thin edge of yet another wedge and it's the one where I draw the line.
Tell you what, scrap the tax on me buying and paying for my own home and I'll pay for water.

You are just demonstrating a complete ignorance of the system. It's not simply a matter of raising the cost per unit if people conserve water. They could only justifiably raise the price if consumption dropped so much that the cost to treat the water increased because they are not treating enough to benefit from their current economy of scale. Granted, it is not impossible that consumption would drop that much, especially if water leaks are fixed rapidly, but rather than increase the price, it is more likely they would shut down smaller treatment centers and make use of the more cost effective larger ones. Even with all that taken into consideration, they have to convince the regulator that a price increase is needed due to factors outside their control and they are in no way guaranteed to get it.

dxhound2005

Tinkersbell wrote: »

Must we follow blindly 'other states'?

Put it the other way round. If France or Germany proposed to do away with their existing water charges and property taxes, and fund everything mainly from income tax, how do you think the workers would react? Yet this is the position which emanates from a perverse one off election buying exercise in 1977 which all our socialists now defend as a human right.

Tinkersbell

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You are just demonstrating a complete ignorance of the system. It's not simply a matter of raising the cost per unit if people conserve water. They could only justifiably raise the price if consumption dropped so much that the cost to treat the water increased because they are not treating enough to benefit from their current economy of scale. Granted, it is not impossible that consumption would drop that much, especially if water leaks are fixed rapidly, but rather than increase the price, it is more likely they would shut down smaller treatment centers and make use of the more cost effective larger ones. Even with all that taken into consideration, they have to convince the regulator that a price increase is needed due to factors outside their control and they are in no way guaranteed to get it.

So, when I said.."If people don't use enough water the company can apply for an increase in rates." it wasn't quite 'complete ignorance' as you politely put it, was it?
I mean, you did go on to explain how that could happen there, didn't you?

Tinkersbell

I do not want to pay for water in any way

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Put it the other way round. If France or Germany proposed to do away with their existing water charges and property taxes, and fund everything mainly from income tax, how do you think the workers would react? Yet this is the position which emanates from a perverse one off election buying exercise in 1977 which all our socialists now defend as a human right.

We are where we are, as someone posted earlier.

listermint

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You are just demonstrating a complete ignorance of the system. It's not simply a matter of raising the cost per unit if people conserve water. They could only justifiably raise the price if consumption dropped so much that the cost to treat the water increased because they are not treating enough to benefit from their current economy of scale. Granted, it is not impossible that consumption would drop that much, especially if water leaks are fixed rapidly, but rather than increase the price, it is more likely they would shut down smaller treatment centers and make use of the more cost effective larger ones. Even with all that taken into consideration, they have to convince the regulator that a price increase is needed due to factors outside their control and they are in no way guaranteed to get it.

You are showing a complete blind ignorance to the power of regulators in this country who have demonstrated no history of saying no to price increases. This goes to all regulators, Energy, Transport, Communications.

Complete blind ignorance. And i cant believe people are still peddling the conservation line. Its more funny that you actually believe it.

FG supporter paint by numbers. Dont forget to keep within the lines. lol.


This is Ireland they are guaranteed increases. Every facet of recent history demonstrates that across the board. Stop showing your ignorance.


The wheels are falling of the barrel, and its great, Councils are voting tonight for no confidence in IW. The people are speaking it must really grind your gears.

listermint

I do not want to pay for water in any way

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Put it the other way round. If France or Germany proposed to do away with their existing water charges and property taxes, and fund everything mainly from income tax, how do you think the workers would react? Yet this is the position which emanates from a perverse one off election buying exercise in 1977 which all our socialists now defend as a human right.

We are not France and we are not germany, Why must you blindly think that other countries make good choices. You are aware (i hope that large sections of both countries you speak about have renationalised their water services. Paris is a good example of this. Privatisation and the manner and direction we are taking is harking back to how Britain did it and did it wrong.

If anything we should be learning from mistakes but instead we are ploughing on with your parties failed strategies which you are failing to dress up as legitimate.

moxin

I do not want to pay for water in any way

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Put it the other way round. If France or Germany proposed to do away with their existing water charges and property taxes, and fund everything mainly from income tax, how do you think the workers would react? Yet this is the position which emanates from a perverse one off election buying exercise in 1977 which all our socialists now defend as a human right.

Not comparable. Workers here have been paying for donkeys years for water through high VAT and extortionate motor tax. We don't see these two going down any soon to compensate for water charges.

tayto lover

Tinkersbell wrote: »

In other states, our closest neighbour for instance, they have free school books and free GP care.
Do you think they find it odd that we don't have these things?
Do you think they find it odd that we pay a USC on top of all the other taxes taken from our income?

You won't get a clear answer from any of the pro-water charge on that. Nor will they comment on the high rates of VRT and VAT we pay. Nor will they comment on the PRSI we pay for which we get zilch. Nor the levies to pay for Quinn Ins, PMPA or Health.
As long as Enda is happy with all this they are too.

Going Forward

I do not want to pay for water in any way

What's going to happen when Irish Water accuse someone of criminal damage for uninstalling a meter?

The defence that the water meter fairies acted without someone's permission or knowledge will be interesting.

listermint

I do not want to pay for water in any way

tayto lover wrote: »

You won't get a clear answer from any of the pro-water charge on that. Nor will they comment on the high rates of VRT and VAT we pay. Nor will they comment on the PRSI we pay for which we get zilch. Nor the levies to pay for Quinn Ins, PMPA or Health.
As long as Enda is happy with all this they are too.

This is exactly it. They are literally programmed to think that you MUST pay, the try to legitimise bad spending they try to make anyone who questions what is going on as some troll, scrounger, non tax payer, anti system, lefty extremist.

We are asking questions that need to be asked. Its not lefty to question government decisions that is the roll of opposition something FG failed time and time again to do while FF where in power. And this is why we are where we are. FG and FF are the problem as the two largest parties in government and in opposition. And their supporters are mindless drones. These parties need to get rid of the chaff that holds them back and breed new blood and new thinking in or scrap themselves completely.

listermint

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Going Forward wrote: »

What's going to happen when Irish Water accuse someone of criminal damage for uninstalling a meter?

The defence that the water meter fairies acted without someone's permission or knowledge will be interesting.

That would involve Irish Water still being around.

dxhound2005

Tinkersbell wrote: »

We are where we are, as someone posted earlier.

Where we are is a country still borrowing €6.5 billion to fill the gap between income and expenditure. Nothing to do with banks or telling the EU to bugger off, just the shortfall between taxes and expenditure. Normalising the tax base which has now been achieved will be a boon to future governments. Income from property taxes and water charges will be a guaranteed revenue stream. Not subject to the vagaries of recession and large increases in the proportion of the populatin who are non income tax payers.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/budget-2015-noonan-sets-stage-for-more-tax-cuts-1.1963616

The national debt is forecast to stand at €203.2 billion by the end of this year, down from €215.6 billion at the start of the year. The exchequer borrowing requirement will be €6.5 billion.

Going Forward

I do not want to pay for water in any way

moxin wrote: »

Not comparable. Workers here have been paying for donkeys years for water through high VAT and extortionate motor tax.

Someone in particular will be along in a moment to say that never happened.

twowheelsgood

tayto lover wrote: »

You won't get a clear answer from any of the pro-water charge on that. Nor will they comment on the high rates of VRT and VAT we pay. Nor will they comment on the PRSI we pay for which we get zilch. Nor the levies to pay for Quinn Ins, PMPA or Health.
As long as Enda is happy with all this they are too.

You do realize that we have a deficit?

Do you think it is a good idea to add to our almost €200 billion debt, a debt on which we are paying 8 billion in interest alone per year?

Irish Steve

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

Tinkersbell wrote: »

We were well able to take on billions in debt to bail out baknrupt banks.
I'm sure at this stage another few billion to sort out a basic of life wouldn't be too hard.

Do you actually read any of the posts here?

Ireland was already many many billions in debt before the property crash broke the banks and caused the final issues that led to the IMF/Troika arriving in.

The ECB letters revealed today make it clear that the economy was already tanked, screwed, use whatever phrase suits you BEFORE the banking crash that finally precipitated the end game. The bank bailout is being used by some parties as a convenient smoke screen to hide the harsh reality of the chickens that have come home to roost as a result of the popularist policies of the last 30 years

Water needs something in excess of 10 Bn just to sort out the outstanding issues that have been long fingered by every government since 1977, and that makes no allowance for the extra that will be needed to ensure ongoing continuity of supply, especially for the East coast, and it makes no allowance for the extra money that will have to be spent to ensure that pollution doesn't make boil notices the norm for massive parts of the country, and no allowance for the massive job needed to end boil notices in some parts of the country

The bank bailout is somewhere in the region of 4% of the total debt of the country. The rest of the debt is for money that was spent by the state that was in excess of the money that was coming in on a day to day basis from taxation.

IT IS THAT SIMPLE, YOUR government has spent more money than it had in the kitty to spend for the best part of 30 years, and that chicken came home to roost when they could no longer sustain the borrowing because the property bubble burst, and the cash flow dried up.

YOU, AND YOUR CHILDREN (yes, and me and mine), and probably their children as well will be paying the bills for that folly for a long time to come, and in order to keep the essential services of the state going, it was decided to make Water an "off book" service operated and managed by a private semi state company.

Yes, the eventual long term aim is that IW (in whatever form it eventually emerges from the shambles of the present GUBU mess) will be TOTALLY responsible for the provision of water and waste water services, and that the funding they generate from charges based on usage (meters) will cover the cost of providing that service, using a similar model to the model that is in operation IN EVERY OTHER OECD country.

Ireland is the odd one out, and is also in breach of a number of European directives relating to water and waste water, but there's nothing new there either.

This issue has to be fixed, it would have had to be fixed even if the IMF/Troika hadn't made it a condition of the bail out, and fixing it IS going to cost, because ALL of us have NOT been paying the real cost of water since 1977, and now, it's come home to roost, and can't be long fingered any more.

What was NOT needed, and is totally inappropriate, is the corruption, nepotism, and other things like gyms, bonuses and excessive expenses and allowances that the Golden Circle think they are "entitled" to for operating Irish Water, the entire ethos and culture of IW is wrong from top to bottom, and paying extra money for those inappropriate aspects of the operation of IW has to be fought all the way to the end, and it then has to be rooted out of the rest of the state services and the political elite, for the same reasons.

We do not like having to pay for water, I don't like it, but I recognise that it is essential that we pay the proper and appropriate sums for good quality water piped to the taps in our homes, and that we pay for appropriate levels of waste water treatment for the products that then leave our houses, in order to ensure that the health of the other people in the community in which we all live is not compromised.

The alternative is to go back to using the many pumps on the streets filling buckets, and living with unacceptable levels of sickness and deaths due to the diseases that always follow poor hygiene and absence of waste treatment and disposal, and yes, like it or not, it IS that cut and dried, if you don't believe me, ask your doctor what the risks are from untreated water, or bad waste water management.

It IS that simple, and it is that essential. The bank bail out is being used by the left wing and others as an inappropriate distraction from the overall aspect of the failure of the political elite and the Golden Circle to deal with the realities of modern Ireland, and the true day to day cost of running the state over the last 30 or so years.

We should have been paying more for our water for the last 30 years, and now, we have no choice but to start correcting that error, and the people to blame for it are the politicians for failing to deal with the infrastructure issues, and yes, the people for being prepared to vote for short term popularist policies put forward by sleeveen politicians that were ignoring the issues that are now out in the open.

There are similar issues coming about pensions (especially in the state sector, some of the pensions being paid have no basis on any reality) and with health services, but they are for another time, another thread and another day, as it's proving hard enough to get to grips with the water issue.

Sorry if that seems harsh, but it IS the reality of where we've ended up, as to who's to blame for that, I leave it to you to decide, based on some of the thoughts I've outlined here

Little CuChulainn

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

Tinkersbell wrote: »

So, when I said.."If people don't use enough water the company can apply for an increase in rates." it wasn't quite 'complete ignorance' as you politely put it, was it?
I mean, you did go on to explain how that could happen there, didn't you?

You speak like it's an inevitable consequence when it is far from it.

listermint wrote: »

You are showing a complete blind ignorance to the power of regulators in this country who have demonstrated no history of saying no to price increases. This goes to all regulators, Energy, Transport, Communications.

Complete blind ignorance. And i cant believe people are still peddling the conservation line. Its more funny that you actually believe it.

FG supporter paint by numbers. Dont forget to keep within the lines. lol.

This is Ireland they are guaranteed increases. Every facet of recent history demonstrates that across the board. Stop showing your ignorance.

The wheels are falling of the barrel, and its great, Councils are voting tonight for no confidence in IW. The people are speaking it must really grind your gears.

The regulator does its job by keeping them in check and keeping the price as low as it can be. Most people understand that the majority of price increases in Gas are due to an increase in wholesale costs from the UK and the increases in Electricity are due to the ever increasing cost of fossil fuels. Fortunately, we have our own way of collecting water.

Still resorting to calling people FG supporters. It's just so pathetic at this stage. Don't bother responding, I won't see it.

listermint

I do not want to pay for water in any way

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Where we are is a country still borrowing €6.5 billion to fill the gap between income and expenditure. Nothing to do with banks or telling the EU to bugger off, just the shortfall between taxes and expenditure. Normalising the tax base which has now been achieved will be a boon to future governments. Income from property taxes and water charges will be a guaranteed revenue stream. Not subject to the vagaries of recession and large increases in the proportion of the populatin who are non income tax payers.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/budget-2015-noonan-sets-stage-for-more-tax-cuts-1.1963616

The national debt is forecast to stand at €203.2 billion by the end of this year, down from €215.6 billion at the start of the year. The exchequer borrowing requirement will be €6.5 billion.

Because countries run deficits, All countries borrow, al countries run deficits.

Bank Bailout or no bank bailout.

Credits is healthy it allow for expenditure in the now to promote jobs and stimulate.

Try again DX.

tayto lover

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Where we are is a country still borrowing €6.5 billion to fill the gap between income and expenditure. Nothing to do with banks or telling the EU to bugger off, just the shortfall between taxes and expenditure. Normalising the tax base which has now been achieved will be a boon to future governments. Income from property taxes and water charges will be a guaranteed revenue stream. Not subject to the vagaries of recession and large increases in the proportion of the populatin who are non income tax payers.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/budget-2015-noonan-sets-stage-for-more-tax-cuts-1.1963616

The national debt is forecast to stand at €203.2 billion by the end of this year, down from €215.6 billion at the start of the year. The exchequer borrowing requirement will be €6.5 billion.

Christ we could all go out to celebrate that day. It would be fantastic.












If we had any money left to celebrate with.

dxhound2005

Going Forward wrote: »

What's going to happen when Irish Water accuse someone of criminal damage for uninstalling a meter?

The defence that the water meter fairies acted without someone's permission or knowledge will be interesting.

It doesn't matter. Where there is no meter operational, the house will be issued with an unmetered bill.

Unless there is enough evidence for a prosecution there would be no point in anyone going to court. Irish Water would have to report the crime to the Gardai for them to investigate. It would be just the same as any other random act of vandalism, plenty of which go unprosecuted for lack of evidence.

listermint

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You speak like it's an inevitable consequence when it is far from it.



The regulator does its job by keeping them in check and keeping the price as low as it can be. Most people understand that the majority of price increases in Gas are due to an increase in wholesale costs from the UK and the increases in Electricity are due to the ever increasing cost of fossil fuels. Fortunately, we have our own way of collecting water.

Still resorting to calling people FG supporters. It's just so pathetic at this stage. Don't bother responding, I won't see it.

Oh right so, I wasnt sure you were aware that Coal Prices have been failing since 2010 pretty consistently year on year and continue into 2014. Due to fall in global demand. Specifically where Chinese industry is concerned. The Australians are having issues selling their minerals.

Gas has been pretty static bar the odd localised blip mainly to do with Russia but supplies elsewhere have increased to keep costs down.

So what then are you actually talking about ?

Tell me why Irish Rail Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann have got increases year on year for the past 4 years. All these things are 'regulator' controlled.


You just love these phantom guardian angel regulators it appears with no facts to back it up.


Oh and its fairly evident you are pro government pro FG I dont have to point that out.

Going Forward

I do not want to pay for water in any way

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Where we are is a country still borrowing €6.5 billion to fill the gap between income and expenditure. Nothing to do with banks or telling the EU to bugger off, just the shortfall between taxes and expenditure. Normalising the tax base which has now been achieved will be a boon to future governments. Income from property taxes and water charges will be a guaranteed revenue stream. Not subject to the vagaries of recession and large increases in the proportion of the populatin who are non income tax payers.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/budget-2015-noonan-sets-stage-for-more-tax-cuts-1.1963616

The national debt is forecast to stand at €203.2 billion by the end of this year, down from €215.6 billion at the start of the year. The exchequer borrowing requirement will be €6.5 billion.

I presume you mean broadening the tax base, and if you do that hasn't actually occurred.

What has occurred is that the PAYE worker will pay more for the same water.
The concessions have watered down the LPT and water charges.

As full cost recovery appears to have been dropped, any revenues raised by water charges will not chip much off any deficit for the trouble involved.

tayto lover

twowheelsgood wrote: »

You do realize that we have a deficit?

Do you think it is a good idea to add to our almost €200 billion debt, a debt on which we are paying 8 billion in interest alone per year?

So the answer is always more taxes and charges?
The workers and home owners who are now struggling have to pay the debt while the elite award themselves bonuses and look after their cronies and our Govt pay themselves to go to work.

Yes indeed. Great country.