The amount of misogyny on boards these days is frightening.*Mod instruction in OP*

ptee1

Earl Turner wrote: »

Many men do have a low opinion of women today and you know what, you've kind of brought it on yourselves

'I'm a liberated woman I can sleep with whoever I want. Slutshaming!' Well yes you can sleep with as many men as you want but most men don't want a woman who passes her self around. And yes we will judge you. Deal with it.

Divorce laws. Seen it over and over, men broken financially and mentally because the wife suddenly decided he was a loser and that she could do better.

Angry feminists blaming men for everything: rape culture, the patriarchy, the one in four, the pay gap myth.

So basically women want to live life on their terms, do what ever they want and to never have to face judgement or negative consequences for their actions.

Good points. The slutshaming point is great. Men who have a preference for women with few partners are seen as having "a problem" by many women.

Theres always going to be extremists on either side though which is a shame.

Sand

beks101 wrote: »

I'm a woman, I have many opinions and a propensity towards expressing them.
I've been doing so around here for very many years.
And to be honest lads, the combination of having an opinion and having a vagina around here isn't exactly a walk in the fcuking park on most days.
Here are some things I've dealt with:

- The repeated assumption that I am a male poster if I don't make the distinction. Despite what most would agree is a fairly obvious female username. Hence the persistent bleating of "I am a woman"
- A dismissal of and attempts to invalidate my feelings, experiences and opinions on some gender-related issue because I haven't taken any concrete action. Such as 'going to the cops'.
- A dismissal or attempts to invalidate my feelings, experiences and opinions on some gender-related issue because "I have a female friend who disagrees with you".
- Posters raking through my post history to find something that contradicts some opinion I have on something gender related
- The assumption that I am speaking for my entire gender when I express any opinion on any innocuous subject anywhere.
- Whataboutery. The fact that it can swing both ways does not detract from the fact that it exists as a way to degrade a female opinion or experience in the first place.

I like AH because IMO it can be like a microcosm of Irish society or at least of pub banter across the country on various social issues, something I sorely miss as an expat. It can be good craic.
But there's no denying it can be a bloody coarse place for a woman with an opinion, especially one who habitually seeks to speak up on gender-related issues.
And just because your own gender excludes you from experiencing the reality of that, does NOT mean it isn't the case.

Welcome to the male experience where you are not a special or unique snowflake. If you are a poster with a propensity for expressing you opinion, you are going to bump into other posters with a propensity for expressing theirs and criticising yours. All of the stuff you reference that you paint in terms of being gender specific are fairly standard Internet ROE. Also the last bit, underlined - genuine laughter. Yup, being male has meant the internet is full of sunshine, rainbows and people who thank me for expressing my opinions and value my input. No need for sarcasm tags I hope.

I know the above comes across as harsh, and might be filed under your definition of criticism of being female and expressing an opinion. Its not. Its your opinion being criticised. I do genuinely believe its tougher for a female to engage in online gaming (for example) due to the immaturity of a significant minority of that community. I have noticed that successfully "integrated" female gamers tend to be gamer laddettes - I haven't quite made up my mind if thats down to females conforming to male dominated gamer culture, or my own biases.

I do recall reading a book called "This Love is not for cowards". It was an Americans account of his decision to live in Juarez, Mexico to support the local soccer team that against all odds had made it to the Mexican football top flight. During his time in Juarez, the nature of the book changed - it stopped being about simply supporting a team, and became about supporting Juarez and living in a city with a drug fuelled murder rate that rivalled a warzone. How people coped with that. For example, he recalls how tortured bodies of murder victims were found on his jogging path one morning, and he jogged there again the next day convincing himself that it wouldn't touch him. One of the angriest chapters in the book is where the author confronts an American writer who tries to portray the murders and chaos in Juarez as being a misogynist issue - that women in the city were the victims of a male driven violence. As if the problems of the city could be explained in gender terms. The author correctly pointed out that *all* the people of Juarez, male and female, were the victims of a cartel fuelled violence and that women were actually minority victims of murder and violence. He was very angry that the true tragedy was being appropriated and repackaged as a gender issue/first world problem for safe, white America.

Obviously, the scale is different but people being rude and aggressive to you on the internet is how the internet works, male or female.

BTW, the OPs post is ridiculous. There is misogyny online, plenty of it. But you need to be able to cite an example, not merely complain about something you wont actually point to. The OP is perfect catnip for a gender based mess, with the female assigned role of wanting to passive-aggressively complain about a problem in general without solving it, while males try to pin down specifics so the problem can be identified and solved and both frustrate the other for 30+ pages.

As others have said, it's an undercurrent, an atmosphere of hostility and in certain threads any mention of a gendered issue results in some posters being pounced on and picked apart, often with the salient points disregarded in a petty point-scoring battle of semantics. It's easy to get sucked into that vortex, get defensive and let it get to you.

AH used to be much more fun, but now it feels like an unwelcoming place much of the time (to me). Some threads are actively upsetting in the amount of vitriol and really thinly veiled hatred they contain. It's often not just a question of one post - the obvious ones are obvious - it's a pattern of undermining, questioning, belittling and misdirection, and like other female posters, it's made me think that Boards is not a place I enjoy much anymore and I'm spending less time here in AH in particular.

There was a little lull in the hostility over the summer, but it launched into full-on mode the last few weeks and it actually doesn't just dishearten me, it makes me sad. We should be able to get along and chat about things without it turning into a festival of blame and spite, but that seems to be the way lately. Single mothers, street harassment, kids, sentencing, fathers rights, all these things should be talked about without the level of venom and poison that spills out. We all have problems and perspectives, and we should be all on each others sides, not taking sides.

It speaks volumes that when I saw the thread title, I was worried for what was going to be directed at SparkySpitfire, and thought about not posting because I'd have to brace myself for whatever comes after. I know people can feel accused in a general way and want to defend themselves against specifics, but while specifics are easy to deal with, a hostile atmosphere is harder to point out to people who don't feel it, and it's hurtful to have your experience brushed aside and told that its not an issue, when it really, really, is.

You're a brave girl Sparky.

efb

ptee1 wrote: »

Good points. The slutshaming point is great. Men who have a preference for women with few partners are seen as having "a problem" by many women.

Theres always going to be extremists on either side though which is a shame.

and he brought a friend

ptee1

efb wrote: »

and he brought a friend

How is this anything other than flaming/trolling?

dark crystal

Some of the posters on this thread are illustrating the OP's point just perfectly.

Mr. Incognito

efb wrote: »

I gave links to back up the pay gap, but some people still climate change is a myth so I aint going to change everyone's mind, I accept that.

You links are skewed because they dont compare like with like.

They lump in all women and lump in all men and dont factor in a lot of women who are full time caregivers that have part time jobs and just divide to give an average.

A more scientic study of like for like educated sexes in the same jobs would show no gap imo.

A skewed study doesnt prove anything

IrishCule

efb wrote: »

8% is explained by women not asking, ok...

lol ok, you can think whatever you want.

Can I ask you this though, why is it that figures like 20% up to 30%+ are banded about regularly? Why does your study itself start by saying :

The average hourly pay gap between women and men remains at 18% within the European Union and, on an annual basis at 24%, according to the European Report released by the Belgian Presidency; in real terms the difference ranges between 6% and 34%.

And then later say, actually the real figure is this but nevermind.

About two-thirds of the observed gap was due to differences in observable characteristics between men and women, such as different levels of education and labour market experience, job and firm characteristics, etc. When account is taken of such factors, the remaining adjusted (or unexplained) wage gap was close to 8 per cent.

Which side is pushing an agenda?

BunkMoreland

Why do people try to control what other people should think. So what if someone hates women, what's it to you?

Lady Chatterton

County Hurler, you and Dermot would get along, you both being Brendan Shine fans.

BunkMoreland

BunkMoreland wrote: »

Why do people try to control what other people should think. So what if someone hates women, what's it to you?

So if you were a black person who has to deal with racists, you wouldn't see a problem there?

efb

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

You links are skewed because they dont compare like with like.

They lump in all women and lump in all men and dont factor in a lot of women who are full time caregivers that have part time jobs and just divide to give an average.

A more scientic study of like for like educated sexes in the same jobs would show no gap imo.

A skewed study doesnt prove anything

The report finds that the overall wage gap in 2003 was almost 22 per cent. On average men have more years of work experience than women and - among the factors identified here - this is the single biggest contributor to the pay gap. Nevertheless differential experience only accounts for a 3.1 per cent pay gap, or just over 14 per cent of the total. Many other factors - such as a higher incidence of supervisory roles, longer tenure and higher trade union membership among men and a higher incidence of part-time work among women - also widen the gap. The combined effects of broad occupational and sectoral gender segregation contribute 2.8 per cent, accounting for 13 per cent of the overall wage gap. A further interesting finding is that married or cohabiting men enjoy a wage premium which widens the gap. The authors interpret this as reflecting men’s much lower likelihood of having spent time out of the labour market for family reasons. Finally, a gap of 7.8 per cent - one third of the total - cannot be attributed to any of the factors included in the analysis.

http://www.equality.ie/Files/The%20Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20in%20Ireland.pdf

7.8% after the differentials have been removed, remains unaccounted for.

Lady Chatterton

I met Brendan Shine and his wife in a teashop in Galway a few years ago and he was lovely He was embarrassed when the owner asked him to sign the visitors book.

DemocAnarchis

efb wrote: »

I gave links to back up the pay gap, but some people still climate change is a myth so I aint going to change everyone's mind, I accept that.

So if you actually read the study you posted, it states that

"In the EU, the gender pay gap is referred to officially as the ‘unadjusted gender pay gap’, as it does not take into account all of the factors that impact on the gender pay gap, such as differences in education, labour market experience, hours worked, type of job, etc. "

Numerous studies have demonstrated that ajusted for these factors, the "gender pay gap" is approx 2 %.

In addition, certain female demographics (single, childless women between ages 22 and 30) that are often the loudest on this topic broadly out-earn their male counterparts.

There is disparity in earnings on both sides of the equation - men often work in more hazardous industries that pay better - over 90% of workplace fatalities are male.

Turtwig

MrsD007 wrote: »

County Hurler, you and Dermot would get along, you both being Brendan Shine fans.

MrsD007 wrote: »

I met Brendan Shine and his wife in a teashop in Galway a few years ago and he was lovely He was embarrassed when the owner asked him to sign the visitors book.

efb

IrishCule wrote: »

lol ok, you can think whatever you want.

Can I ask you this though, why is it that figures like 20% up to 30%+ are banded about regularly? Why does your study itself start by saying :



And then later say, actually the real figure is this but nevermind.



Which side is pushing an agenda?

It assumes in an egalitarian environment there would be no difference, but allowing for real life allowable differentials the gap still remains above 7%, and that can't be explained as being fair.

Mr. Incognito

efb wrote: »

The report finds that the overall wage gap in 2003 was almost 22 per cent. On average men have more years of work experience than women and - among the factors identified here - this is the single biggest contributor to the pay gap. Nevertheless differential experience only accounts for a 3.1 per cent pay gap, or just over 14 per cent of the total. Many other factors - such as a higher incidence of supervisory roles, longer tenure and higher trade union membership among men and a higher incidence of part-time work among women - also widen the gap. The combined effects of broad occupational and sectoral gender segregation contribute 2.8 per cent, accounting for 13 per cent of the overall wage gap. A further interesting finding is that married or cohabiting men enjoy a wage premium which widens the gap. The authors interpret this as reflecting men’s much lower likelihood of having spent time out of the labour market for family reasons. Finally, a gap of 7.8 per cent - one third of the total - cannot be attributed to any of the factors included in the analysis.

http://www.equality.ie/Files/The%20Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20in%20Ireland.pdf

7.8% after the differentials have been removed, remains unaccounted for.

This report is eleven years old??? All the data much older even.

Why do you keep saying that this is the contemporary position?

Slicemeister

efb wrote: »

and he brought a friend

While I don't agree with everything he says, it's this kind of retort that actually helps instigate a lot of this misogyny that's prevalent in a lot of these threads. Is he not entitled to a view? If you're going to respond could you at least do it respectfully?

RayM

Gavin Shaggy Stoutness wrote: »

You are eight times more likely to die by suicide if you are a male, that's just not good enough. The rights of male victims of domestic and sexual violence not to be discriminated against on the basis of their gender are certainly not being met. On balance, I would say that males are more usually at an advantage, but that doesn't mean the very serious gender-specific problems that do disproportionately affect them can just be written off as "sure that's just what men are like, nothing to be done about that".

I think a lot of those gender-specific problems that affect men are indirectly caused by those advantages. The flip-side of being a member of a group that has traditionally been at a huge advantage is that certain things are 'expected' of you.

How Soon Is Now

Slicemeister wrote: »

While I don't agree with everything he says, it's this kind of retort that actually helps instigate a lot of this misogyny that's prevalent in a lot of these threads. Is he not entitled to a view? If you're going to respond could you at least do it respectfully?

See thats the problem you get when these kinds situations happen.

Your gonna get a lot of people in here now teaming up together because they feel like victims. On both sides. It solves nothing if anything it just adds to the mess.

Nothing will be achieved from this thread wont solve any problems and it will just turn into another waste of a thread. Like i said before us vs them in this case women vs men.

efb

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

See thats the problem you get when these kinds situations happen.

Your gonna get a lot of people in here now teaming up together because they feel like victims. On both sides. It solves nothing if anything it just adds to the mess.

Nothing will be achieved from this thread wont solve any problems and it will just turn into another waste of a thread. Like i said before us vs them.

I am not a victim misogamy, by definition, I cannot be.

BunkMoreland

Candie wrote: »

So if you were a black person who has to deal with racists, you wouldn't see a problem there?

If someone wants to be racist let them be. I'm sure most black people don't give a ****, they've enough people getting offended on their behalf.

efb

BunkMoreland wrote: »

If someone wants to be racist let them be. I'm sure most black people don't give a ****, they've enough people getting offended on their behalf.

You think most black people wouldn't care about racism?

How Soon Is Now

efb wrote: »

I am not a victim misogamy, by definition, I cannot be.

I dont care.

All im doing is stating this thread right now is nothing more then ill state my point then you state yours but no one agrees with either and we just go round and round till the last person is left.

DemocAnarchis

RayM wrote: »

I think a lot of those gender-specific problems that affect men are indirectly caused by those advantages. The flip-side of being a member of a group that has traditionally been at a huge advantage is that certain things are 'expected' of you.

I don't know if I'd use the term advantage - I think that a lot is attributed to gender disparity that is actually a class disparity, although I generally agree that societal expectations have a huge impact on the area of male mental health.

BunkMoreland

efb wrote: »

You think most black people wouldn't care about racism?

Yes.

BunkMoreland

BunkMoreland wrote: »

If someone wants to be racist let them be. I'm sure most black people don't give a ****, they've enough people getting offended on their behalf.

Turning your back on things like racism and misogyny and xenophobia helps provide the ideal conditions for things like that to proliferate. Surely we can all agree that the world is a better place for everybody if we keep the hate to a minimum? If someone is racist, they deserve to have their attitudes questioned and challenged.

J Mysterio

BunkMoreland wrote: »

If someone wants to be racist let them be. I'm sure most black people don't give a ****, they've enough people getting offended on their behalf.

J Mysterio

J Mysterio wrote: »

Well, if one black film star doesn't care, then obviously no black person does.

DemocAnarchis

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

I dont care.

All im doing is stating this thread right now is nothing more then ill state my point then you state yours but no one agrees with either and we just go round and round till the last person is left.

Par for the course for pretty much any debate in human history so. People have a set position, and numerous psychological studies have shown that being exposed to counterarguments (no-matter how valid) actually result in becoming more entrenched in your beliefs. At the end of the day, people will advocate for their own interests (either consciously or subconsciously under the guise of altruism).

And I say the above despite having contributed to the discussion with what I believe is accurate information.

eviltwin

TheZohan wrote: »

What happened when you reported the posts? You did report them, didn't you? I mean it would be pointless to create a thread here now and not report the offending posts? Otherwise people would think you're soapboxing.

the mods do a good job. the threads on their own are fine but i think the point the op is making is that there are so many of them. it gets tiring. i don't like boards anymore, it no longer feels like a welcoming place for women.

efb

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

Sand

The point might be better expressed that black people know that there are racist people in the world, but just get up and get on regardless.

IsMiseMyself

Sand wrote: »

The point might be better expressed that black people know that there are racist people in the world, but just get up and get on regardless.

Ferguson.

Mr. Incognito

efb wrote: »

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

There are some people so addicted to exaggeration that they can't tell the truth without lying.

Josh Billings

J Mysterio

Candie wrote: »

Well, if one black film star doesn't care, then obviously no black person does.

Passive aggressive.

What you have extrapolated from that was not my intention.

Karl Stein

Sand wrote: »

The point might be better expressed that black people know that there are racist people in the world, but just get up and get on regardless.

No they don't Mr Black person spokesman. History shows that Black Americans agitated for civil rights. They formed the Black Panthers and got tooled up. They got organised and had racist laws overturned. Black people took on institutional racism.

Sand

Yeah, that's repeating what I said back to me.

How Soon Is Now

eviltwin wrote: »

the mods do a good job. the threads on their own are fine but i think the point the op is making is that there are so many of them. it gets tiring. i don't like boards anymore, it no longer feels like a welcoming place for women.

Im not a woman so i cant speak for the gender and how they feel on here but i always get the impression women are very welcome on here. The site wouldn't be the same without the majority of the female posters on here.

I honestly think if there are issues towards women on here there are just as many issues towards other kinds of people as well.

You shouldn't feel like your not welcome just because some people set out to cause trouble on here because there hugely outnumbered.

Karl Stein

Sand wrote: »

The point might be better expressed that black people know that there are racist people in the world, but just get up and get on regardless.

BunkMoreland wrote: »

If someone wants to be racist let them be. I'm sure most black people don't give a ****, they've enough people getting offended on their behalf.

Look folks, we've two heroes here who have their fingers on the pulse of every black person and have decided to become spokespersons on their behalf.

gormdubhgorm

I have just seen the phrase "invalidate my feelings"..........

This to me means three things:
1) it is an Oprah /chatshow type phrase that you would hear in the mid-morning shows a lot

2) It is a phrase that people seem to use when they do not think a person should be allowed to disagree with them, while taking a moral high ground

3) This therapy type speak psychobabble really turns from reading this thread as I initially thought (incorrectly it turns out) it would be an interesting discussion with concrete examples with maybe a bit of humour thrown in!
How wrong I was!:eek:

Wompa1

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I have just seen the phrase "invalidate my feelings"..........

Trigger Warning: Life is going to eat you alive. Also, rape is mentioned.

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

the mods do a good job. the threads on their own are fine but i think the point the op is making is that there are so many of them. it gets tiring. i don't like boards anymore, it no longer feels like a welcoming place for women.

So many. It can feel relentless, either an onslaught of threads or nit-picking, undermining posts within a thread. It's not welcoming, and that's just AH, there are other locations that are far worse.

Sand

Karl Stein wrote: »

Look folks, we've two heroes here who have their fingers on the pulse of every black person and have decided to become spokespersons on their behalf.

Oh no, I feel humbled by being the presence of a real black rights activist such as yourself.

Karl Stein

Sand wrote: »

Oh no, I feel humbled by being the presence of a real black rights activist such as yourself.

I'm not a black rights activist. I'm a white Irish man who knows better than to try to speak on behalf of an entire demographic like you and your friend have.

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

Abraham Lincoln

Sand

Karl Stein wrote: »

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

Abraham Lincoln

Wise words, you should have considered them about 2-3 posts ago.

JasperGeorge.

I think it would be safe to say that most male posters on boards.ie are like me Irish white youngish males maybe 60% male 40% female. I think it's interesting that the area were civil rights are considered legitimate and fiercely defended are the MRA threads. Whilst groups that are excluded somehow from being either white Irish or male are of course 'never discriminated against. I am actually a supporter of moderate MRA activists. However for me it's about total gender equality. I don't see moderate feminism being an opposing factor to that I think it's possible to be a supporter of feminism and MRA. If you don't think so fine suit yourself.

I am going to say that sexism and misogyny are very very different things. I am going to say there is a lot of sexism on boards. There is some but not much misogyny. Remember misogyny is a pure HATRED of women. Not every jerk who responds with 'nice story babes' is a misogynist. He is a jerk and a sexist. There is quite a bit of sexism on the net. That is true. It's actually not even something a lot of people do consciously.

There are also a huge number of trolls who know it is a subject that creates drama. The vast number of posts on boards.ie are not sexist ...they are pretty stupid a lot of the time but they are often not even to do with women.Yes there are some people who don't get out much. And they used to spend time alone in their bedrooms now there is the net. I think a lot of women particularly in Ireland have a suspicion that they are finally getting a carry over representation of 'lockeroom banter' as if this is what men were like all along. That this is what we say when they are not around. Or perhaps we get an insight into what women feel they have to deal with.

Yes there are some misogynists on boards. But they puff up bigger than they are and bigger in number than they are. Yes they enjoy the drama of demeaning women. Sites like PUA hate sort of read like stormfront with their weird psuedo science to support ludicrous views.

Women on FB get Messages marked other would be filled with dick picks occasionally or links to porns vids sleazy or abusive messages or worse. Obviously these people are unwell. Women on Boards.ie I would say get a lot more weirdy pms. Female gamers present themselves as male online.Think about what that means. A woman feels safer presenting herself online as a man. If black people were presenting themselves as white. And there are some posters on here who need a wake up call. Not many but there are there. I think the problem is unless it is happening to you then you don't see it.

I walk past it. I don't see it. I have not experienced it. I am male. That does not mean I am responsible for it. It just means I am responsible for my ignorance.

I don't claim not to be selfish and prone to making questionable jokes at times or even questionable comments. I am certainly open to anyone taking me up on them though and saying 'hey did you think of what you said in this way?'. It's good to see a mirror of yourself from someone else's eyes sometimes.And in saying that, I would like to say this to the OP. When women announce to men who have not demonstrated the behavior you mention it feels like you are being persecuted. I understand it's difficult and maybe even unwise to say in the moment to the guy who was the jerk to back off and give him some wisdom. But I think you also need to consider how you approach it.


I think what women are saying when they start threads like this is not 'This goes on I am going to punish you for it', I think what they are saying is 'GUYS PLEASE DON'T DO THIS'. So if you did not intend to do so or have not done so then you don't need to worry. I don't start misogynists threads and I try not to make those types of comments. I am not perfect. But if any female poster wants to ever have a discourse over that i am always completely open to it.

Nasty is a mask for something else. I think a lot of sexism is simply an asshole letting off steam and watching people squirm. They are assholes to men. I understand though that they may be assholes to women in a different way and we should not ignore them. I have never met a woman hater who was not a sad loser of a ****. And I am not a bleeding heart liberal and I do support men's rights. If that combo does not sit well with any of you that's your problem.

The vast majority of men here are not the problem so berating us is not the solution.

Karl Stein

Sand wrote: »

Wise words, you should have considered them about 2-3 posts ago.

If you're going to make profoundly stupid posts you should expect to have them pointed out.

PopePalpatine

BunkMoreland wrote: »

If someone wants to be racist let them be. I'm sure most black people don't give a ****, they've enough people getting offended on their behalf.

If black people didn't give a ****, the Deep South would still have segregation and South Africa would still have apartheid.

Sand

Karl Stein wrote: »

If you're going to make profoundly stupid posts you should expect to have them pointed out.

True, but people who make profoundly stupid posts in an attempt to be an internet hero tend to be unable to acknowledge that they've made a profoundly stupid post even when it is pointed out to them. Repeatedly. If they could, they wouldn't be dumb enough to make profoundly stupid posts. Would they?