Overwatch - Blizzard's latest game

Generic Dreadhead

To be fair, without the Hook, Roadhog is just a blob of meat with a crap gun at all but kissing distance
It would be like Nerfing Mercys healing staff so it has to physically touch the person. That's like "her thing"

If they can fix it without breaking it, fine, great. And for thats the important thing. Fix it without breaking Roadhog overall, still have him viable
But calling every "good" ability "overpowered" is wrong and a symptom of the balancing circle jerk.
I see the same thing happen a lot in Destiny. "Oh 7 of the 9 supers are overpowered depenindng on how you use them and when and where...."

IMHO, the only OP thing in the game atm is D.Va overall and maybe Rheinheart overall if you're not absolute rubbish with him and some would argue Soldier since the latest patch since he's now "too good" at being a jack of all trades (but imho, Mei is a bigger villian).

Even a lot of the other "staples" in the Comp Meta are not OP, I'm looking at you Lucio..... ya sneaky, jumpy ole bollox ya :pac:

Roadhog is only part of the 3 Tank Meta cause he's not in a relatively poor spot overall (like Wintson) and people are generally picking 2 out of Roadhog, D.Va and Zarya with Rheinheart being the 3rd tank. So 66% of the time in a 3 Tank play, he'll show up.

I guess I'd rather they look at combating the 3 tank meta more, he'll be nerfed by proxy then

But again, this is my experience as a console player where he ain't OP cause you can't go Rheinheart fishing like we saw in those gifs

Benzino

I see people mention that D.Va is OP a lot, but I'm not sure why. There are a lot of counters to her and she will lose 1 v 1 battles against a number of other heroes. Her ult, while very capable of wiping an entire team, is probably one of the easiest to avoid also.

Generic Dreadhead

Benzino wrote: »

I see people mention that D.Va is OP a lot, but I'm not sure why. There are a lot of counters to her and she will lose 1 v 1 battles against a number of other heroes. Her ult, while very capable of wiping an entire time, is probably one of the easiest to avoid also.

Unfortunately I think part of the issue is that a lot of her Counters are not in high levels of play or Comp. Like Reaper for example

Fix 3 Tank Meta, and maybe she doesn't need quiet as much tweaking

Then again, having dropped down to Gold.... I see less and less 3 tank.... and more and more "overall you pick is bad, your play is bad, your ULT is bad" :P

Benzino

Blizzard have been excellent with their updates, so I hope they fix the Mei ecopoint glitch quickly. As it stands, 3v3 or 1v1 is unplayable, 2 out of every 3 games has at least one person spend the entire match trying it.

Benzino

Generic Dreadhead wrote: »

Unfortunately I think part of the issue is that a lot of her Counters are not in high levels of play or Comp. Like Reaper for example

Fix 3 Tank Meta, and maybe she doesn't need quiet as much tweaking

Then again, having dropped down to Gold.... I see less and less 3 tank.... and more and more "overall you pick is bad, your play is bad, your ULT is bad" :P

That's true, but a Zarya, Mei, and even a jumpy Symmetra will cause her all kinds of trouble. Even the likes of Solider76 or Mccree if you keep your distance. Then there is WidowMarker and Hanzo who have a nice big hitbox to aim at.

Zillah

Generic Dreadhead wrote: »

But calling every "good" ability "overpowered" is wrong and a symptom of the balancing circle jerk.

But it is overpowered. It's essentially an instant execution for most non-tank heroes, with autoaim and a huge hitbox. It deserves to be nerfed. It's also weird and inconsistent in how it behaves, so if they can kill two birds with one stone, sweet. His gun's right click is perfectly lethal at medium range as well.

I'm not sure what about balancing makes it a "circlejerk".

Zarya is a hard counter for DVa. Not a damn thing she can do except run away or die, often both. DVa's in a pretty good place right now. Her ult can be a little obnoxious but it can also result in complete failure half the time.

Falthyron

Nerfing Roadhog's hook is more effective and easier to implement than getting decent servers to play matches. A lot of the anguish over Roadhog's hook comes down to distinctly different perspectives. For the player being hooked, it appears like they are behind a wall and out of line-of-sight. But, the player doing the hooking sees the target only going into cover as he/she releases the hook.

At least now the hook can break if LOS is lost as a way of compensating for the issues with the servers.

raze_them_all_

Generic Dreadhead wrote: »

To be fair, without the Hook, Roadhog is just a blob of meat with a crap gun at all but kissing distance
It would be like Nerfing Mercys healing staff so it has to physically touch the person. That's like "her thing"

If they can fix it without breaking it, fine, great. And for thats the important thing. Fix it without breaking Roadhog overall, still have him viable
But calling every "good" ability "overpowered" is wrong and a symptom of the balancing circle jerk.
I see the same thing happen a lot in Destiny. "Oh 7 of the 9 supers are overpowered depenindng on how you use them and when and where...."

IMHO, the only OP thing in the game atm is D.Va overall and maybe Rheinheart overall if you're not absolute rubbish with him and some would argue Soldier since the latest patch since he's now "too good" at being a jack of all trades (but imho, Mei is a bigger villian).

Even a lot of the other "staples" in the Comp Meta are not OP, I'm looking at you Lucio..... ya sneaky, jumpy ole bollox ya :pac:

Roadhog is only part of the 3 Tank Meta cause he's not in a relatively poor spot overall (like Wintson) and people are generally picking 2 out of Roadhog, D.Va and Zarya with Rheinheart being the 3rd tank. So 66% of the time in a 3 Tank play, he'll show up.

I guess I'd rather they look at combating the 3 tank meta more, he'll be nerfed by proxy then

But again, this is my experience as a console player where he ain't OP cause you can't go Rheinheart fishing like we saw in those gifs

He still will have a hook just not a magic one that hooks from behind a solid thing

My name is URL

Anyone know if last nights patch fixed the wall breach exploit on Ecopoint?

fixXxer

Not really pleased to hear Roadhog being toned down on console for what seems to be a PC problem. I dunno though, I've only picked him recently and never try for targets I cant see so maybe the difference wont be that big.

TitianGerm

Generic Dreadhead wrote: »

To be fair, without the Hook, Roadhog is just a blob of meat with a crap gun at all but kissing distance
It would be like Nerfing Mercys healing staff so it has to physically touch the person. That's like "her thing"

If they can fix it without breaking it, fine, great. And for thats the important thing. Fix it without breaking Roadhog overall, still have him viable
But calling every "good" ability "overpowered" is wrong and a symptom of the balancing circle jerk.
I see the same thing happen a lot in Destiny. "Oh 7 of the 9 supers are overpowered depenindng on how you use them and when and where...."

IMHO, the only OP thing in the game atm is D.Va overall and maybe Rheinheart overall if you're not absolute rubbish with him and some would argue Soldier since the latest patch since he's now "too good" at being a jack of all trades (but imho, Mei is a bigger villian).

Even a lot of the other "staples" in the Comp Meta are not OP, I'm looking at you Lucio..... ya sneaky, jumpy ole bollox ya :pac:

Roadhog is only part of the 3 Tank Meta cause he's not in a relatively poor spot overall (like Wintson) and people are generally picking 2 out of Roadhog, D.Va and Zarya with Rheinheart being the 3rd tank. So 66% of the time in a 3 Tank play, he'll show up.

I guess I'd rather they look at combating the 3 tank meta more, he'll be nerfed by proxy then

But again, this is my experience as a console player where he ain't OP cause you can't go Rheinheart fishing like we saw in those gifs

In fairness it'd be more like nerfing mercy's staff that she can only heal in line of sight.

Nody

Penn wrote: »

Aye.


I can see them buffing him in other areas after a few weeks. Maybe increasing the damage from the impact of the hook.

Sorry but they will need to do a whole lot more than that; outside of the hook (and even at current style you're looking at around 60% hit ratio at best) Roadhog is useless. As DPS you got far better options, as tank you got far better options and the only thing keeping Roadhog relevant is his ability to hook and disrupt an enemy line (and even that is enemy dependent as they all land at various ranges making the hook one hit kill combo possible or not). Remove that and you might as well replace him with D'Va (better mobility, DPS and ultimate) straight out.

Benzino

My name is URL wrote: »

Anyone know if last nights patch fixed the wall breach exploit on Ecopoint?

It didn't unfortunately.

TitianGerm

Generic Dreadhead wrote: »

Unfortunately I think part of the issue is that a lot of her Counters are not in high levels of play or Comp. Like Reaper for example

Fix 3 Tank Meta, and maybe she doesn't need quiet as much tweaking

Then again, having dropped down to Gold.... I see less and less 3 tank.... and more and more "overall you pick is bad, your play is bad, your ULT is bad" :P

Reaper is a poor counter to DVa seen as she can absorb all his shots and then just fly away.

Adventagious

Zillah wrote: »

But it is overpowered. It's essentially an instant execution for most non-tank heroes, with autoaim and a huge hitbox. It deserves to be nerfed. It's also weird and inconsistent in how it behaves, so if they can kill two birds with one stone, sweet. His gun's right click is perfectly lethal at medium range as well.
.

I'd disagree here - even if you pull off the hook/primary/melee combo while aiming at the head (which is very difficult to do consistently) there are plenty of characters who won't die and can escape and self heal with their abilities.
The ones that don't escape aren't meant to - RH is an intended counter to the squishy portion of the roster.

The alternate fire can be tricky too, if you're not at the right range it does nothing, and only a solid hit to centre mass/head at perfect range is going to do any good. Little bits of shrapnel will otherwise be ignored.

Like everyone else on the roster he has his own share of counters.

The hook mechanics do indeed need some work; unfair pulls through level geometry are frustrating, no argument there.

But i think the rest of his kit should be left alone.

Yeah, he has a big health pool and can self heal - but you know what? He's the biggest, easiest target to damage in the game and everyone is shooting at him. Rein is huge but has the shield and big health, Zarya has her bubbles and Dva her matrix. Winston has his shield but is probably due a bit of a buff in my opinion.

Caveat - i play a fair bit of Roadhog and am quite fond of him. Trying not to be biased, but it's hard!

Penn

Nody wrote: »

Sorry but they will need to do a whole lot more than that; outside of the hook (and even at current style you're looking at around 60% hit ratio at best) Roadhog is useless. As DPS you got far better options, as tank you got far better options and the only thing keeping Roadhog relevant is his ability to hook and disrupt an enemy line (and even that is enemy dependent as they all land at various ranges making the hook one hit kill combo possible or not). Remove that and you might as well replace him with D'Va (better mobility, DPS and ultimate) straight out.

Yeah but they're not removing his hook, just that you can't hook people through objects or drag people through the environment. The unintentional aspects of it. You'll still be able to hook and disrupt an enemy line. Just won't be able to do it in a way that's unfair.

Nody

Benzino wrote: »

I see people mention that D.Va is OP a lot, but I'm not sure why. There are a lot of counters to her and she will lose 1 v 1 battles against a number of other heroes. Her ult, while very capable of wiping an entire team, is probably one of the easiest to avoid also.

Between triggering the ultimate when she's lost her robot (but before jumping out), the boost and jump out and the fact if you're anywhere near and don't start running the right direction the moment it's trigger and you die you mean?

This is before we add the mobility, unlimited ammo, 100% stop shield, knock back from boosting etc.

Penn wrote: »

Yeah but they're not removing his hook, just that you can't hook people through objects or drag people through the environment. The unintentional aspects of it. You'll still be able to hook and disrupt an enemy line. Just won't be able to do it in a way that's unfair.

You mean a way you don't think is fair; do you honestly expect a non armor tank to survive standing around for the full duration of launching it, retrieving and then fire while under fire from the enemy team? Roadhog is already a weak tank as it is and now you're looking at standing in the open in clear sight for everyone for at least 1s to launch, hit, hook and pull back. He'll be dead before the target is even pulled in and that's assuming they don't bother to find some minor item to stand behind to block LOS in the first place. Hook was the only thing RH had going for him; remove his ability to hook without being a standing in the open as a target and he's dead.

Zillah

Falthyron wrote: »

Nerfing Roadhog's hook is more effective and easier to implement than getting decent servers to play matches. A lot of the anguish over Roadhog's hook comes down to distinctly different perspectives. For the player being hooked, it appears like they are behind a wall and out of line-of-sight. But, the player doing the hooking sees the target only going into cover as he/she releases the hook.

At least now the hook can break if LOS is lost as a way of compensating for the issues with the servers.

It's nothing to do with servers, lots of other latency-dependent powers do not suffer this problem. The hook is buggy as coded, frequently grabbing people through solid objects and catapulting players around, even from the Roadhog player's point of view. They're rewriting it to be more consistent.

Part of that recoding is a nerf, which is that it will no longer swing people back around corners, which I think is fair and makes Roadhog more balanced. The ability to latch onto a massive hitbox with significant autoaim through the flimsiest line-of-sight and rubberband them with magic-physics through and around any intervening objects was absurd.

Adventagious

Zillah wrote: »

The ability to latch onto a massive hitbox with significant autoaim through the flimsiest line-of-sight and rubberband them with magic-physics through and around any intervening objects was absurd.

This made me laugh

Fair comment.

Generic Dreadhead

Zillah wrote: »

But it is overpowered. It's essentially an instant execution for most non-tank heroes, with autoaim and a huge hitbox.

So is Hanzos primary fire. One hit kills are thing and Roadhogs has a cool down.

His gun's right click is perfectly lethal at medium range as well.

It's serviceable, I wouldn't be a big fan of it though. Handy for catching a Hero with ~50 HP trying to run away or if you want to DPS a Rhein shield, never found it hugely appealing aside from that though. Maybe I should use it more.

I'm not sure what about balancing makes it a "circlejerk".

The circlejerk commet wasn't aimed at you, just more a Meta comment on Video Game balancing uproar in general

Falthyron wrote: »

For the player being hooked, it appears like they are behind a wall and out of line-of-sight. But, the player doing the hooking sees the target only going into cover as he/she releases the hook.

Exactly, hence why I took that screen grab. From Roadhogs POV, it was fine and then the game sh@t the bed trying to deal with it

fixxxer wrote: »

Not really pleased to hear Roadhog being toned down on console for what seems to be a PC problem. I dunno though, I've only picked him recently and never try for targets I cant see so maybe the difference wont be that big.

Same thing happened to Symettra at one stage. It's a PC centric game essentially unfortunately

Benzino wrote: »

Blizzard have been excellent with their updates, so I hope they fix the Mei ecopoint glitch quickly. As it stands, 3v3 or 1v1 is unplayable, 2 out of every 3 games has at least one person spend the entire match trying it.

Yup, totally stopped playing both modes as a result

emmetkenny wrote: »

In fairness it'd be more like nerfing mercy's staff that she can only heal in line of sight.

True

Nody wrote: »

Sorry but they will need to do a whole lot more than that; outside of the hook (and even at current style you're looking at around 60% hit ratio at best) Roadhog is useless. As DPS you got far better options, as tank you got far better options and the only thing keeping Roadhog relevant is his ability to hook and disrupt an enemy line (and even that is enemy dependent as they all land at various ranges making the hook one hit kill combo possible or not). Remove that and you might as well replace him with D'Va (better mobility, DPS and ultimate) straight out.

I agree, and bolded the most important part which is what I trying to get earlier.
I'm happy for them to "fix" the hook exploit on PC (which will have a spillover on console naturally) without them breaking it.
"Overpowered" it is not.

emmetkenny wrote: »

Reaper is a poor counter to DVa seen as she can absorb all his shots and then just fly away.

This sentence can apply to every hero though, Aside from Zarya (and Symettra and Winston to an extent)

Zillah wrote: »

The hook is buggy as coded, frequently grabbing people through solid objects and catapulting players around, even from the Roadhog player's point of view. They're rewriting it to be more consistent.

No one is disputing this is can be issue on PC it is currently not an issue on Console is what we are saying

Penn wrote: »

Yeah but they're not removing his hook, just that you can't hook people through objects or drag people through the environment. The unintentional aspects of it. You'll still be able to hook and disrupt an enemy line. Just won't be able to do it in a way that's unfair.

Exactly, fix it, don't nerf it since it's not OP if the game worked as intended. Exploits/glitches are not Overpowered, they are glitches

Zillah

Generic Dreadhead wrote: »

No one is disputing this is can be issue on PC it is currently not an issue on Console is what we are saying

There are a few different conversations going on here, I haven't said anything about consoles.

fixXxer

Zillah wrote: »

There are a few different conversations going on here, I haven't said anything about consoles.

That's probably my fault. I saw a lot of people complaining about the glitch and mentioned that its not an issue (or at least a much smaller issue) on PS4. I don't think I've ever seen a crazy hook outside of a youtube video.

Generic Dreadhead

Zillah wrote: »

There are a few different conversations going on here, I haven't said anything about consoles.

Yeah, I was just reiterating Ryus point that the Glitch/Exploit isn't an issue on Console. Why? I don't know.... something about Data packets maybe

But I fundamentally disagree with your sentiment the hook is OP
But Nody more or less covered what I was getting at.

Penn

Nody wrote: »

You mean a way you don't think is fair; do you honestly expect a non armor tank to survive standing around for the full duration of launching it, retrieving and then fire while under fire from the enemy team? Roadhog is already a weak tank as it is and now you're looking at standing in the open in clear sight for everyone for at least 1s to launch, hit, hook and pull back. He'll be dead before the target is even pulled in and that's assuming they don't bother to find some minor item to stand behind to block LOS in the first place. Hook was the only thing RH had going for him; remove his ability to hook without being a standing in the open as a target and he's dead.

I think not being able to hook and pull non-visible enemies through the environment is fair, yes. But as the devs themselves have said, this may lead to Roadhog becoming underpowered, so they'll address that after people have played as him a bit and they can see what needs to be addressed.

I think he's a weak tank too and definitely needs some work regardless. This is the first step though as it is something which is unfair to those who get unfairly hooked. Again, look at the two gifs I posted of McCree and Reinhardt getting hooked. McCree was behind a wall (and it's not like he was hooked, ran behind the wall and got pulled back, he was never in RH's line of sight) and Reinhardt was pulled out of f*cking nowhere. It's also a disadvantage to RH in some cases like the Reinhardt one because instead of possibly being able to hook and kill a Genji, gets faced with a Reinhardt and Genji's still alive too.

Overpowered or underpowered... the hook needs fixing.

Benzino

Nody wrote: »

Between triggering the ultimate when she's lost her robot (but before jumping out), the boost and jump out and the fact if you're anywhere near and don't start running the right direction the moment it's trigger and you die you mean?

It does not mean insta death, far from it. All the maps are littered with environmental objects (Oasis might be the exception here, need to play it more), just go behind one of them and you'll be sorted.

In most cases, I find D.Va ults usually only get 1 or 2 kills max. It's rare when it gets more (in my experience) unless it's combined with another ult like Mei's or Zarya's.

Nody wrote: »

This is before we add the mobility, unlimited ammo, 100% stop shield, knock back from boosting etc.

Her shield only lasts a short duration and has a brief cooldown before it can be activated again. When matrix is activated, just stop shooting at her!

Unlimited ammo is not an issue in my opinion considering the little damage her guns do unless she is right up close, and she needs the mobility to get in close otherwise she would be totally useless considering the low damage output of her weapons at range.

I don't see any issue with the knock back either, it's not as effective as Lucio's or Pharah's and does little damage.

I actually think D.Va is in the best place balance wise she the game launched, and I'd be hesitate to change her much. Instead, I think they need to buff Winston, he is the alternative to D.Va as a mobile tank but I think he's too squishy as is. Perhaps replacing some of his health with armour is the way to go.

Penn

Penn wrote: »

Overpowered or underpowered... the hook needs fixing.

More examples:
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Jericho Caine

emmetkenny wrote: »

How many have you won so far? I think there is a 1000 point cut off for Competitive so if your within that you can group up with us.

Is that the SR your talking about? I'm currently at 1941.

Nody

Benzino wrote: »

It does not mean insta death, far from it. All the maps are littered with environmental objects (Oasis might be the exception here, need to play it more), just go behind one of them and you'll be sorted.

In most cases, I find D.Va ults usually only get 1 or 2 kills max. It's rare when it gets more (in my experience) unless it's combined with another ult like Mei's or Zarya's.

And it ensures you clear the point for about 5s between running in and out on top of kills. It is one of the strongest ultimates in the game atm and it can be triggered at any time inc. when the suit is killed ensuring you pull a full health suit directly without downtime.

Her shield only lasts a short duration and has a brief cooldown before it can be activated again. When matrix is activated, just stop shooting at her!

4s of unlimited damage tanking on a 10s recharge which allows her to for example get up to a Bastion which would melt Reinhardt's shield in about 2s. It's the top absorbing shield with the lowest cooldown recycle with the longest duration.

Unlimited ammo is not an issue in my opinion considering the little damage her guns do unless she is right up close, and she needs the mobility to get in close otherwise she would be totally useless considering the low damage output of her weapons at range

Except all other tanks are also short range damage dealers with less range and without any mobility except for Winston's jump.

I don't see any issue with the knock back either, it's not as effective as Lucio's or Pharah's and does little damage.

Knocking people off cliffs, off lifts, elevators, healers around corners etc. is a big deal esp. when it's on a 5s cooldown (Lucio is on 4s, Pharao at 11s).

I actually think D.Va is in the best place balance wise she the game launched, and I'd be hesitate to change her much. Instead, I think they need to buff Winston, he is the alternative to D.Va as a mobile tank but I think he's too squishy as is. Perhaps replacing some of his health with armour is the way to go.

D'Va currently is at the peak of her power and will likely get nerfed in the months to come.

Nody

Penn wrote: »

https://gfycat.com/DisastrousCapitalAchillestang

And the player would have died to a Hanzo doing a head shot next to the entrance as well there; shall we nerf Hanzo arrows while we're at it?

J. Marston

Winston needs some kind of buff. It's telling that he's still pretty weak while this tank meta is dominating.