city of sanctuary

7upfree

longshanks wrote: »

I never mentioned racism. I asked are you going to organise a protest outside the well known traveller gangs house as you said you organised the protest against the Roma.
What is your criteria for organising protests? Which gangs get a free pass? And why?

Do we really need to take more criminals in? I think that's what his criteria is.

RobYourBuilder

O Riain wrote: »

As for you 7upfree, ignoring the plight that people are suffering in the direct provision system and alleging that they are not indeed actual 'asylum seekers' is ignorant at best and racist at worst.

No it's not it. He is correct in his assertions.

"A small but well placed minority of commentators have sought to create the impression that Ireland's treatment of asylum seekers is harsh and unfair. They have consistently concealed the real facts from the Irish people. Moreover, they have sought to create the impression that anyone who points out the true situation is engaging in political racism. They hint at international comparisons which do not exist.

They refuse to address the very large abuse of asylum protection in Ireland. They claim to believe that it is wrong to point out what is happening lest it create prejudice against genuine asylum seekers. They are engaging in a form of verbal intimidation of those who would tell the truth."

Dealing fairly but efficiently with the large number of unfounded asylum claims which are being received which represent over 90% of the total asylum applications being processed annually

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/PR07000171

Over 90% of them are bogus.

7upfree

O Riain wrote: »

As for you 7upfree, ignoring the plight that people are suffering in the direct provision system and alleging that they are not indeed actual 'asylum seekers' is ignorant at best and racist at worst.

Ya see, when you descend to comments like that, you've already undermined your own argument.

Robyourbuilder has put it far more succinctly.

"Racism". Sweet Jesus.:rolleyes:

7upfree

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/PR07000171

Over 90% of them are bogus.

Great find my friend.

navalus

Yes a very great find .

invalid

Not wishing to enter the argument but that statement was made in 2005, 9 years ago. Time has most assuredly moved on, it is now irrelevant is they are real or bogus, 9 years is far to long to let anyone's life be in such a limbo.

RobYourBuilder

invalid wrote: »

Not wishing to enter the argument but that statement was made in 2005, 9 years ago. Time has most assuredly moved on, it is now irrelevant is they are real or bogus, 9 years is far to long to let anyone's life be in such a limbo.

They get a decision on their asylum claims within three months of their application. Problem is, it's not a decision that they want. Start with ORAC, get a refusal. Go to RAT, get a refusal. Then seek subsidiary protection or leave to remain. Get a refusal. Seek a Judicial review. Get a refusal. Whack in an asylum claim under your childs name and around the merry go round we dance again.

You want to award people for attempting to exhaust the system. They are free to leave at any given time.

From your post, I'm taking it that you want to give them an amnesty. Very egalitarian of you but not very rational. Where will they work? Where will they live? Will they need upskilling and education? Welfare? Amnesties always serve to do one thing; encourage more to arrive and chance their arm. It won't solve the problem, but exacerbate it.

invalid

Damnit, wasn't going to get drawn in but how and ever. To answer your questions, firstly I do believe in equality and I am quite rational.
And in fairness I do not believe in an amnesty per say, and if this was 2005 I would be totally against it. But it is not it is 2014 and we have locked people up are exorbitant cost for years and now its time to stop and actually stray to act rationally. And teh opnly rational, fair and honest thing to do now is to give these people there life back

As for this exacerbating a problem you must first see a problem. I do not.

Xenophobia is not a positive emotion. It is expressed by arguments such as crime, social welfare fraud, unemployment and protection of our culture. These are smoke screens for fear, cultural stagnation and in many cases racism.

I see no problem in a properly structured and monitored method of migration; the Irish have been doing it for centuries (that is migrating, not structured). I just believe we should have a fair and honest structure that offers protections to the state against those who arrive but are not willing to contribute and protections those who are seeking a better life for themselves and their children. I believe that racial diversity and the integration of new cultures can only strengthen this republic, not weaken it. I believe that the Irish culture can, as it has before, withstand the introduction of other cultures, ideas, foods and peoples and be stronger for it.

I have never seen in any debate that we should restrict the influx of Germans, English, Dutch, French or Americans to this state, only those for east Europe, Asia and Africa. Let’s get real about this, if we want to have a better country, and a least a better looking country we should encourage migration here. And to take up your last point again, what about the undocumented Irish in the USA, should they be deported? Do they contribute nothing to the USA? Are they just abusing the system for economic gain?

Of course not.



They are white.

Immigration in Ireland – 2013 in Review

Stories from Direct Provision #1

Stories from Direct Provision #2

RobYourBuilder

And in fairness I do not believe in an amnesty per say, and if this was 2005 I would be totally against it. But it is not it is 2014 and we have locked people up are exorbitant cost for years and now its time to stop and actually stray to act rationally. And teh opnly rational, fair and honest thing to do now is to give these people there life back

Cool. Anyone in DP has been refused refugee status, subsidiary protection or leave to remain because their claims are unfounded. 800 are currently fighting deportation orders. If they stay, will they be able to provide for themselves or will they be reliant on the state?

Suggest a cheaper method of dealing with asylum other than dp. I've yet to hear one.

As for this exacerbating a problem you must first see a problem. I do not. 

Bogus asylum seekers are very much a problem. EU wide. Record numbers of illegals/asylum seekers are landing in Malta, Italy, and Spain. They don't want to stay there, but head to western Europe. Give an amnesty here and word will spread pretty quickly. Asylum numbers are already up 40% on last year.

I see no problem in a properly structured and monitored method of migration; the Irish have been doing it for centuries (that is migrating, not structured). I just believe we should have a fair and honest structure that offers protections to the state against those who arrive but are not willing to contribute and protections those who are seeking a better life for themselves and their children

Billions of people live on less than $2 a day. They would be better off in Ireland. How many should we take in? Is there a limit? Where will they work? Will they need medical care? Somewhere to live? A welfare payment? Education? Language classes? Who shall pay for all this?

You are aware being from a developing country or being poor is not grounds for asylum, right?

I just believe we should have a fair and honest structure that offers protections to the state against those who arrive but are not willing to contribute and protections those who are seeking a better life for themselves and their children. I believe that racial diversity and the integration of new cultures can only strengthen this republic, not weaken it.

You can believe in whatever the hell you want. Studies show the opposite;

Robert Putnam, Diversity in Communities wrote:

In recent years, Putnam has been engaged in a comprehensive study of the relationship between trust within communities and their ethnic diversity. His conclusion based on over 40 cases and 30 000 people within the United States is that, other things being equal, more diversity in a community is associated with less trust both between and within ethnic groups. Although limited to American data, it puts into question both the contact hypothesis and conflict theory in inter-ethnic relations. According to conflict theory, distrust between the ethnic groups will rise with diversity, but not within a group. In contrast, contact theory proposes that distrust will decline as members of different ethnic groups get to know and interact with each other. Putnam describes people of all races, sex, socioeconomic statuses, and ages as "hunkering down," avoiding engagement with their local community—both among different ethnic groups and within their own ethnic group. Even when controlling for income inequality and crime rates, two factors which conflict theory states should be the prime causal factors in declining inter-ethnic group trust, more diversity is still associated with less communal trust.

Lowered trust in areas with high diversity is also associated with:

●Lower confidence in local government, local leaders and the local news media.

●Lower political efficacy – that is, confidence in one's own influence.

●Lower frequency of registering to vote, but more interest and knowledge about politics and more participation in protest marches and social reform groups.

●Higher political advocacy, but lower expectations that it will bring about a desirable result.Less expectation that others will cooperate to solve dilemmas of collective action (e.g., voluntary conservation to ease a water or energy shortage).

●Less likelihood of working on a community project.

●Less likelihood of giving to charity or volunteering.

●Fewer close friends and confidants.

●Less happiness and lower perceived quality of life.

●More time spent watching television and more agreement that "television is my most important form of entertainment".

Putnam published his data set from this study in 2001[4][5] and subsequently published the full paper in 2007.[6]

Putnam has been criticized for the lag between his initial study and his publication of his article. In 2006, Putnam was quoted in the Financial Times as saying he had delayed publishing the article until he could "develop proposals to compensate for the negative effects of diversity" (quote from John Lloyd of Financial Times).[7] In 2007, writing in City Journal, John Leoquestioned whether this suppression of publication was ethical behavior for a scholar, noting that "Academics aren’t supposed to withhold negative data until they can suggest antidotes to their findings."[8] On the other hand, Putnam did release the data in 2001 and publicized this fact.[9] The proposals that the paper contains are located in a section called "Becoming Comfortable with Diversity" at the end of his article. This section has been criticized for lacking the rigor of the preceding sections. According to Ilana Mercer "Putnam concludes the gloomy facts with a stern pep talk".[10]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam#Diversity_and_trust_within_communities

I have never seen in any debate that we should restrict the influx of Germans, English, Dutch, French or Americans to this state

Probably because they don't take the p*ss or falsely claim asylum. For what it's worth, an American asylum seeker was deported and banned from reentering the state by former Minister for Justice, Alan Shatter. He was white, fwiw.

Let’s get real about this, if we want to have a better country, and a least a better looking country we should encourage migration here. 

Genetics, nice.

According to the United Nations report Trends in International Migrant Stock: The 2013 Revision, we already have one of the highest foreign born populations in the EU. Higher than Germany, France, the UK, and the Netherlands. Even higher than the US.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign-born_population

And to take up your last point again, what about the undocumented Irish in the USA, should they be deported? Do they contribute nothing to the USA? Are they just abusing the system for economic gain?

That is up to the citizens of America. I don't support illegals, be they Irish or otherwise. If they are apprehended by ICE, they will be arrested, brought to county or a detention centre, shackled up, left for a week or two, go to court and get deported. No arseboxing around, sob stories or asylum claims entertained there.

7upfree

invalid wrote: »

And to take up your last point again, what about the undocumented Irish in the USA, should they be deported? Do they contribute nothing to the USA? Are they just abusing the system for economic gain?Of course not.

In comparison to Ireland, what social welfare benefits do they receive from Uncle Sam?

navalus

I never knew we had one of the highest foreign born populations in the EU, if this continues will we be a minority in our own Country ?like the native American and Aboriginal Australians.

mollymosfet

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

Some of these lefties are doing my absolute nut in. what have they done for this city at all ? besides the usual rhetoric and shouting racist at anybody who dares to stand up against organised crime.

the crime you're seeing amongst the roma only exists due to centuries of deeply racist persecution that you're helping sustain with posts like this.

so yes, racism. just because you don't understand why you're racist doesn't mean you're not racist.

mollymosfet

navalus wrote: »

I never knew we had one of the highest foreign born populations in the EU, if this continues will we be a minority in our own Country ?like the native American and Aboriginal Australians.

Oh well, then we can just move to any number of other primarily white countries that killed and persecuted groups like the native americans and aboriginal australians.

(And the Roma).

mollymosfet

Cool. Anyone in DP has been refused refugee status, subsidiary protection or leave to remain because their claims are unfounded.

I'm sick of hearing this. This relies on the system being fair. This relies on the idea that there isn't any degree of inherent racism or ignorance in Irish society causing these claims to be viewed as "unfounded". Claimed being refused doesn't mean anything inherently. The state isn't automatically right and the claimee isn't automatically wrong. There is literally no reason to believe this outside of outright xenophobia. Our state has been so unreliable in representing our interests, what makes you think it's any better with asylum seekers?

mollymosfet

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

More than 90% of Asylum seekers are bogus, they are economic migrants who thought by declaring themselves asylum seekers would get them into the country so they could work. The main thing that's wrong with the Irish asylum system isn't direct provision, it's that the deportation process is so unbelievably slow.

[Citation Needed]

navalus

Can you answer me this Molly how can they be described as "Asylum seekers " who enter this country, as I said before how many EU countries do they enter to get to Ireland ? By EU law they are supposed to seek Asylum in the first EU country they enter. The country doesn't have a bottomless pit of money to support people who live here never mind the ones left in every year. Ah I see the Racist card used against those you do not agree with, was wondering when that card would be used.

mollymosfet

The "Racist card" card is really old and needs to stop. People need to learn to examine their internal biases instead of presuming themselves to be saintly and above that. Most people are racist to a degree since we're raised in a whites first culture, and that needs to be pointed out. So get over it.

If you're asking such an elementary question it's pretty clear there's a complex answer. If their charlatanism was that obvious, then even the Irish system would catch it. There are reasons why that happens, but that would regard you to care about the lives and life experiences of Asylum seekers to hear them out, which you do not.

jayboi

mollymosfet wrote: »

The "Racist card" card is really old and needs to stop. People need to learn to examine their internal biases instead of presuming themselves to be saintly and above that. Most people are racist to a degree since we're raised in a whites first culture, and that needs to be pointed out. So get over it.

If you're asking such an elementary question it's pretty clear there's a complex answer. If their charlatanism was that obvious, then even the Irish system would catch it. There are reasons why that happens, but that would regard you to care about the lives and life experiences of Asylum seekers to hear them out, which you do not.

In all fairness that is some sweeping statement to make about being brought up in whites first culture and your completely out of order.
You must have some sort of personal issue or agenda for you to go finger pointing and pontificating to others on this forum when you do worse with a totally unfounded assessment of Irish society, culture and education. It's you who has the problem here not everyone else.

mollymosfet

That's not a sweeping statement. It's a fact. I'm pointing out a flaw in our culture, so it's inherently a generalisation.

My "personal agenda" is that you're saying ****ed up racist **** about my friends. You are racists. You are bad people who are selfish with narrow world views and refuse to educate yourselves because you feel threatened and that's all that matters. The problem is not with me.

You don't get to complain about me making generalisations about who is or isn't racist when most of you in this thread ARE ACTUALLY RACIST to begin with. You are prejudiced and hateful against the Rromani people. This is a fact. You are racist.

Status Offline

If you weren't so overly aggressive your points might be received a bit better. My suggestion, go back to Tumbler until you mature enough to actually debate with people rather than hurling insults at people based on your cause de jour.

mollymosfet

Oh yes, because people making ignorant, sweeping remarks against the Roma people are very mature.

Why is it acceptable to throw insults at an entire race of people, but yet calling out racism is taking it too far?

Also, don't even start with the Tumblr/SJW ****... no. You are not more mature, more world wise, or anything like that. I know Roma people, and I have some good idea of what persecution as like even if I've never experienced on that level. You are not mature, you are sheltered and commenting on an issue you are largely ignorant of.

wellboytoo

10 euro she'll get 4 more posts before the holidays.

Status Offline

mollymosfet wrote: »

Oh yes, because people making ignorant, sweeping remarks against the Roma people are very mature.

Why is it acceptable to throw insults at an entire race of people, but yet calling out racism is taking it too far?

Also, don't even start with the Tumblr/SJW ****... no. You are not more mature, more world wise, or anything like that. I know Roma people, and I have some good idea of what persecution as like even if I've never experienced on that level. You are not mature, you are sheltered and commenting on an issue you are largely ignorant of.

I work with people with severe mental illnesses and have worked with refugees over the years....so you're barking up the wrong tree there. I've known plenty of Roma people over the years.Same as any other group of people, some are nice and others are scum bags. Race has nothing to do with that.

You're in the realm of the "I'm not racist because I have a "insert different race" friend. IMO that makes you an even bigger bigot as you feel that your friends are so worthless that they need a big, let me guess transgender/self diagnosed autistic/what ever makes me special this week, white privileged person to speak up for them because they can't do it them selves. You both degrade them and your self by playing the victim card and being an aggressor at the same time. The internet is full of kids like yourself. You've never really experienced the world outside your sheltered little vacuum of victimhood. No one's ever really pulled you on your **** and because you were always told you were special to stop you from throwing a tantrum, you were stupid enough to believe it.Unfortunately you feel the need to bark you opinions at everyone online because you're probably too much of a coward to actually take any real action in real life that might actually make a difference. Much better be a keyboard warrior and get that good self righteous feeling than actually try and make a positive effect on people or actually try and communicate with people. You catch more flys with honey....or is it Ethiopians.

You are not special, you are not telling people anything they don't already know, none of your thoughts now or in the future are original in any way or form.You will never see the irony of your beliefs versus your actions. You are a millennial and you will never learn because you are incapable of it.

mollymosfet

I work with people with sever mental illnesses and have worked with refugees over the years....so you're barking up the wrong tree there. I've known plenty of Roma people over the years.Same as any other group of people, some are nice and others are scum bags. Race has nothing to do with that.

There are remarks being made against the Roma people. This is racist. Most people have no idea what they go through. I don't just know Roma locally, I'm friends with prominent online Roma activists & Historians. I'm right to call this out. None of what you've said changes that.

You're in the relm of the "I'm not racist because I have a "insert different race" friend.

Actually this is literally just the trick you pulled directly above. I've said nothing racist to defend in the first place.

IMO that makes you an even bigger bigot as you feel that your friends are so worthless that they need a big, let me guess transgender/self diagnosed autistic/what ever makes me special this week, white pillaged person to speak up for them because they can't do it them selves.

No, because again, I've done or said nothing racist, at least not as overtly as others in this thread.

Also I am not self diagnosed autistic. Where did this come from? It is ableist to assume I self diagnosed. You're showing a very stereotypical Anti/reverse-SJW bent here. My point is that I'm less sheltered than those who make judgements on the marginalised. I could never claim to know what it's like to be Roma, of course. Which is why, unlike you, I try to believe them and not racist scumbags who care more about their iPhones than human rights.

You both degrade them and your self by playing the victim card and being an aggressor at the same time. The internet is full of kids like yourself.

I'm not a kid. I'm also not degrading the Roma. If there were Roma people here to speak up, I would give them the platform. On the other hand, you and your friends would harass them into silence. I've seen this happen before. If you were Roma - would you want to set foot on a forum where it's acceptable for people like AlekSmart to call for them to be wiped out from this country? So many of them are tired of arguing. It is better that I, an ally, speak up in place of nobody at all.

You've never really experienced the world outside your sheltered little vacuum of victimhood. No one's ever really pulled you on your **** and because you were always told you were special to stop you from throwing a tantrum, you were stupid enough to believe it.

Again, all the language you're using is typical anti-SJW **** and anti-SJW **** is often rooted in outright bigotry. You are using derailing/goading tactics here - "sheltered little vacuum of victimhood" - what does that even mean? And I haven't been told I was "special". I've been told I was a freak, a tranny, and my own parents didn't accept me until fairly recently. Even though they're supposed to be very conservative on these matters, my Roma friends and Asylum Seekers have defended me without question and even given me support when I was discriminated against(kicked out of a pub for being trans - on a night when we were putting on a gig in aid of the Asylum Seekers - nice). Of course i'm going to sympathise with people who don't treat me like filth over people who turn me into a joke purely for speaking up for my own rights.

Given how it's a sensitive topic right now - playing down how difficult it is to be transgender or mentally ill makes you an asshole. What have you experienced that gives you a right to say this, exactly?

I don't live in a vacuum, quite the opposite. As I've said countless times anti-SJWs are generally the ones that refuse to leave their bubbles. It's one thing to say you have "Roma friends" but quite another to actually listen to them.

Much better be a keyboard warrior and get that good self righteous feeling than actually try and make a positive effect on people or actually try and communicate with people. You catch more flys with honey....or is it Ethopians.

All of this is completely meaningless ranting. None of it changes the fact that there is a strongly racist attitude towards the Roma in this thread, on this forum and in this country and even if I am not Roma I am right to speak up.

You are not special, you are not telling people anything they don't already know, none of your thoughts now or in the future are original in any way or form.You will never see the irony of your beliefs versus your actions. You are a millennial and you will never learn because you are incapable of it.

Why am I not special? How are your thoughts more original than mine? What has being special got to do with calling out racism? What does being a millennial?

Seriously, all of these are red herrings and derailment tactics. The goal, as always, is to shame your opponent into submission. And there is so much transphobic and ableist subtext in this I'm surprised you didn't just outright call me a snowflake(though maybe you did, I actually get a headache trying to read your post). Past the first 2 lines which is the "Roma friend" argument, absolutely nothing of what you said has any real relevance on the argument whatsoever.

Also whelp it looks from your posting history that you're a GamerGater and not even one of the reasonably sympathetic kinds, but the SJWS SJWS SJWS SJWS rape culture doesn't exist lol kind.

jayboi

And tonight Matthew I'm going to be Joan Quirke

Status Offline

mollymosfet wrote: »

There are remarks being made against the Roma people. This is racist. Most people have no idea what they go through. I don't just know Roma locally, I'm friends with prominent online Roma activists & Historians. I'm right to call this out. None of what you've said changes that.



Actually this is literally just the trick you pulled directly above. I've said nothing racist to defend in the first place.



No, because again, I've done or said nothing racist, at least not as overtly as others in this thread.

Also I am not self diagnosed autistic. Where did this come from? It is ableist to assume I self diagnosed. You're showing a very stereotypical Anti/reverse-SJW bent here. My point is that I'm less sheltered than those who make judgements on the marginalised. I could never claim to know what it's like to be Roma, of course. Which is why, unlike you, I try to believe them and not racist scumbags who care more about their iPhones than human rights.



I'm not a kid. I'm also not degrading the Roma. If there were Roma people here to speak up, I would give them the platform. On the other hand, you and your friends would harass them into silence. I've seen this happen before. If you were Roma - would you want to set foot on a forum where it's acceptable for people like AlekSmart to call for them to be wiped out from this country? So many of them are tired of arguing. It is better that I, an ally, speak up in place of nobody at all.



Again, all the language you're using is typical anti-SJW **** and anti-SJW **** is often rooted in outright bigotry. You are using derailing/goading tactics here - "sheltered little vacuum of victimhood" - what does that even mean? And I haven't been told I was "special". I've been told I was a freak, a tranny, and my own parents didn't accept me until fairly recently. Even though they're supposed to be very conservative on these matters, my Roma friends and Asylum Seekers have defended me without question and even given me support when I was discriminated against(kicked out of a pub for being trans - on a night when we were putting on a gig in aid of the Asylum Seekers - nice). Of course i'm going to sympathise with people who don't treat me like filth over people who turn me into a joke purely for speaking up for my own rights.

Given how it's a sensitive topic right now - playing down how difficult it is to be transgender or mentally ill makes you an asshole. What have you experienced that gives you a right to say this, exactly?

I don't live in a vacuum, quite the opposite. As I've said countless times anti-SJWs are generally the ones that refuse to leave their bubbles. It's one thing to say you have "Roma friends" but quite another to actually listen to them.



All of this is completely meaningless ranting. None of it changes the fact that there is a strongly racist attitude towards the Roma in this thread, on this forum and in this country and even if I am not Roma I am right to speak up.



Why am I not special? How are your thoughts more original than mine? What has being special got to do with calling out racism? What does being a millennial?

Seriously, all of these are red herrings and derailment tactics. The goal, as always, is to shame your opponent into submission. And there is so much transphobic and ableist subtext in this I'm surprised you didn't just outright call me a snowflake(though maybe you did, I actually get a headache trying to read your post). Past the first 2 lines which is the "Roma friend" argument, absolutely nothing of what you said has any real relevance on the argument whatsoever.

Also whelp it looks from your posting history that you're a GamerGater and not even one of the reasonably sympathetic kinds, but the SJWS SJWS SJWS SJWS rape culture doesn't exist lol kind.

:rolleyes:

wellboytoo

Could anyone decipher that for me please?

7upfree

wellboytoo wrote: »

Could anyone decipher that for me please?

Agreed. Yawn. Nothing to see here. Move on.

BlaasForRafa

mollymosfet wrote: »

the crime you're seeing amongst the roma only exists due to centuries of deeply racist persecution that you're helping sustain with posts like this.

Right yeah, crime exists because racism.:rolleyes:

You're whats called an "enabler". You give criminals excuses so they can go on committing crimes safe in the knowledge that some simple-minded "do-gooder" will back them up no matter what.

7upfree

mollymosfet wrote: »

the crime you're seeing amongst the roma only exists due to centuries of deeply racist persecution that you're helping sustain with posts like this.

Sweet Jesus. Seriously.:rolleyes: