Help! Dog pee and poop everywhere!!

KatelynneGA14

I have a 5 month old Cavachon. When I first got him I trained him to go to the toilet on puppy pads. He was doing fine for the first couple of weeks, but now he just goes wherever he wants. Literally EVERYWHERE.
I've tried everything, sticking his nose in it, hitting him on the nose, putting him outside, giving out, and all of them together. I have literally tried every single thing possible. When he does go on the puppy pad I praise him, give him his favourite treat, and play with him, but this only happens once in a long time. When I bring him out for a walk he will specifically wait and hold it in until I bring him inside, even if we go out for 2 hours+. It's getting uncontrollable at this stage, and my Mam is seriously thinking about getting rid of him.
I don't have many more options at the minute, but if anyone has any tips could you please tell me. I don't want to lose my puppy.
Thanks.

henryporter

Main way of training them is to take them for walks, when they do their business, praise them with something like "good toilet" - they start to associate the word toilet with the action, so when you say it and open the the door out they go and do a few transactions. We have two rescue dogs who could stay in the house 24 hours without lifting the leg - it's all about creating a habit. I don't subscribe to punishment as a method of training though - it doesn't work, as you have discovered.

KatelynneGA14

henryporter wrote: »

Main way of training them is to take them for walks, when they do their business, praise them with something like "good toilet" - they start to associate the word toilet with the action, so when you say it and open the the door out they go and do a few transactions. We have two rescue dogs who could stay in the house 24 hours without lifting the leg - it's all about creating a habit. I don't subscribe to punishment as a method of training though - it doesn't work, as you have discovered.

Thanks for the reply. As I said, if I bring him out for a walk he will hold it in until we are Indoors. Whether that's in my house, my nanas, a shop or my brothers school, he has no problem holding it as long as he can until he is indoors. So I can't praise him for going outdoors when he just physically won't.

DBB

Hi OP,
Well, as you have discovered, punishing pup doesn't work, and in most cases, makes the problem a LOT worse, and causes a lot of side-issues to appear.
Are you prepared to go back to basics with your pup, and to put some very hard work in to put this right?
Is everyone in your family prepared to put in the hard work, AND to cut the puppy some slack, in light of the fact that a lot of human error has taken place here?

KatelynneGA14

DBB wrote: »

Hi OP,
Well, as you have discovered, punishing pup doesn't work, and in most cases, makes the problem a LOT worse, and causes a lot of side-issues to appear.
Are you prepared to go back to basics with your pup, and to put some very hard work in to put this right?
Is everyone in your family prepared to put in the hard work, AND to cut the puppy some slack, in light of the fact that a lot of human error has taken place here?

Well to be honest I don't see any human error. We've done what has worked for other dog owners so I wouldn't call it human error. Yes we do put our everything into the dog and do not slack on his care and training. I asked for ways to help train him, that's all I need, a few tips.

DBB

KatelynneGA14 wrote: »

Well to be honest I don't see any human error. We've done what has worked for other dog owners so I wouldn't call it human error. Yes we do put our everything into the dog and do not slack on his care and training. I asked for ways to help train him, that's all I need, a few tips.

I'm not getting on your case as such, but I am telling you that punishment is a very risky strategy when it comes to training dogs, especially housetraining pups. Have a look at this current thread, as it illustrates a major problem associated with doing things like slapping pup, sticking his nose in it etc:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057321726

So, by punishing the pup, there was human error made. Pups do not do stuff like wee all over the place for the laugh. They do it because they don't know what else they're supposed to do, or they do it because they've been taught to do it, albeit inadvertently. I know you took advice from other people who own dogs in the best faith, but the truth is that many dog owners haven't a clue what they're at when it comes to training dogs, and this leads to a proliferation of old wives' tales and nonsense that results in dogs being abused. For every dog for who this awful advice "works" for, I give you two dogs that never get fully, reliably housetrained, or develop behavioural problems around not fully trusting their owners.

I know a lot of dogs whose owners used puppy pads when housetraining. I would say less than half of those pups became fully housetrained adults. The problem is that by letting him toilet in the house, whether it's on pads, newspaper, or anything else, you are actually teaching him that it's okay to toilet in the house.
That last bit is really important OP, because it applies to you. Your puppy has been trained to toilet in your house. That's not his fault. He is only doing what he's been taught to do, albeit unwittingly.

Puppies develop very strong associations with the smell and feel of the place they're taught to toilet, so much so that for many dogs, they find it difficult to toilet if these smells and feels are not there... so if a pup learns to go to the toilet (on a pad/newspaper) in the kitchen, then the kitchen itself becomes carte blanche to toilet in, and the pup starts to seek out the kitchen when he feels the need to toilet. This is why your pup is holding his poop and pee in until he gets home from walks, because he has learned that your house is his toilet... because of the use of puppy pads.
He is, in essence, reverse housetrained, because of the use of puppy pads.

Now onto the effects of punishing him when he toilets. If the owner slaps the pup, sticks his nose in it, shouts at him etc, then you end up with a pup who does not trust you, and will not toilet in front of you. Proper, effective housetraining relies upon the pup trusting you enough to toilet in front of you, so that you're right there to give him the huge rewards he deserved for getting it right... and dogs should learn from the outset to get it right, outside, in the garden. Not indoors on any substrate, including pads.
Think about it, but think about it in the context that dogs live in the "right here, right now". If they pee on the floor, by the time they've stood up and walked away from it, they've forgotten that they had anything to do with it. So, you come into the room, and pup has just peed, or maybe even peed a few minutes ago. Either way, you did not catch him right in the act. You get angry. You slap the pup/stick his nose in it/scold him.
To pup, who has no way if linking the pool on the floor with your anger, is confronted by a human who is mostly nice to him, but every so often appears on the scene and loses all reason... the pup has no idea why, and has no way of controlling your behaviour. So you end up with a pup who is worried about what your appearance means, he has no way of knowing if you're going to be friendly, or angry.
Seriously OP, this is not good... I've met dogs who have ripped kitchens to shreds when they hear their owner coming because they're so anxious about what's going to happen, and all because the owners did exactly what you're doing with your pup at the start. I've met dogs that eat their poop to hide the evidence (see thread I linked to above). I've met pups who go off behind the furniture or under beds to pee and poop, trying to hide from their unpredictable owner.

So, you need to go back to basics, and do this properly, gently, and without punishment. Are you prepared for this?
I, and I'm sure others here are prepared to help you through this, but only if you're prepared to recognise that what you've done has not helped so that you can avoid making the same mistakes, and if you're prepared to take advice on board... which begs me to ask... how did you get on with the advice given in your thread where you were having problems with him waking you early in the morning covered in pee and poop?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=91478216

KatelynneGA14

Thank you for your help. I will stop the punishments for now and see how that goes. He is a cheeky little dog. He knows exactly where he is allowed go and where he is not. His bed and puppy pad is out in the utility room, and he knows that that is where he needs to relieve himself. He will even go as far as walking out to the utility room, peeing the tiniest bit on the pad, walking into the kitchen and finishing it in there. If I catch him in the act he will stop and walk out to his puppy pad and just sit there until I move away. He knows exactly what he is doing. At night time he is absolutely perfect! Not a speck of pee out of place. He goes on the pad and that's that. During the day, he goes when he wants and where he wants. When he does go on the pad he let's the whole house know so he can get his treat, and waits next to the press where we keep them. So he knows that if he pees on the pad, he gets a treat, and if he goes in the kitchen he gets punished. He's fully aware of that but just doesn't bother with it sometimes. I have no idea why.

Gran Hermano

OP you won't get better advice than what DBB has provided.
Unfortunately I've also seen several people fail with puppy pads.
You're confusing the crap out of the dog by rewarding it for toileting indoors. Bichons and Bichon mongrels have a reputation for being stubborn to toilet train as well. You're getting slightly better results at night as the old saying that a dog won't crap where it sleeps is true in the main.

Go back to basics, praise the dog immediately when it toilets out doors. Go seriously over the top with praise and a small high value treat. It'll mean frequent trips outdoors. Once an hour is what I'd suggest and yes it'll mean you standing beside the dog and waiting in the cold for up to ten minutes each time until the dog learns outdoors, "go pee", pee and reward.
It needs to be a positive experience for the dog so when it does pee outdoors act as if they've just found you a winning lottery ticket.
Best of luck. Put the work in. Praise the good and ignore the bad/mistakes.

fiounnalbe

KatelynneGA14 wrote: »

Thank you for your help. I will stop the punishments for now and see how that goes. He is a cheeky little dog. He knows exactly where he is allowed go and where he is not.

Not to sound harsh but..he clearly doesn't understand where he is allowed go and where he is not OP, because if he did he simply wouldn't do it where he is not. He is a 5 month old puppy, he's not being cheeky he just sounds like he is confused and really needs some gentle guidance as to what is the right thing to do. Please don't just stop the punishments for now - stop them for good, it is not his fault he received mixed signals as to where is alright to toilet.

Follow DBB's advice about how to train him and I guarantee you'll have a happier more confident puppy and a happier family all round.

ABajaninCork

You need to watch the puppy carefully for the 'triggers'. When he wakes up, eats, plays, gets excited? THAT'S when he's likely to want the loo. Stop using the pads. Take him outside straight away. When he wees or poops, get really excited, praise him like mad and say the words - 'Wee wee', 'poopy doo' - whatever it takes as appropriate. After a while, he'll be able to do it on command. You also need to be prepared to take him out last thing at night, and at least a couple of times in the night as he's so little and can't really hold it.

Did exactly this with my Shih Tzu who are supposed to be notoriously hard to train. He got the idea within three weeks. If he has an accident? Clean it up without comment. Don't tell him off at all. I would also clean the area with a little biological soap to discourage him going in the same spots. Some people recommend crate training puppies as well, but didn't use that method, although the dog slept in his crate.

He's only 5 months old. He's still a baby. You need to be patient.

maringo

Sounds like the dog is very confused. I have never used puppy pads - they weren't thought of when I had my first dog. The only way I would train a puppy is to take them outdoors as the op said every hour - horrible in the winter weather but that is the only sure way I know of the dog getting the message that outdoors is THE toilet. If they get into the habit of peeing in an area they will continue. Could you fence off a small area of the garden maybe temporarily as a toilet area and put him out there regularly? Persistence is the only way to avoid confusing the animal. Personally I would never use puppy pads in the house - might be an idea to put a used one and a clean one outside where you want him to go so he can be led out to that on the hour. No easy way out of this - just persistence and patience will pay off.

DBB

OP, you can forget that he "knows" what he's doing... if he knew what he was meant to do, he'd do it. Dogs don't do revenge, they don't do things to piss us off, they do things that work for them. That's it. If it works for them, they'll do it again. Your pup, quite honestly, sounds like he's hugely confused, because he doesn't know what you want from him. He doesn't know what you want from him because sometimes he gets rewarded for going to the toilet inside, and sometimes he gets punished for going to the toilet inside.
And that's where you have to manage things to make sure that peeing outside works for him, and works really, really well. This is going to take a very patient, consistent approach, making sure you always actively give him the chance to get it right, rather than waiting for him to get it wrong.
You've already discovered that he's fine at night. Why? Because you're managing where he, and consequently where his bladder and bowel are, at all times. You'll need to do this during the day too.
I'd suggest you completely re-jig how you do things during the day, so that you break all associations your pup has with punishment and peeing.
So, get a playpen, and use it to contain him during the day if you're in any doubt about how full his bladder or bowel are. They are a great way of recreating your utility room by day, but he is not being deprived of social contact whilst you're doing it.
At regular intervals, bring him out to the garden. Bring really, really nice treats, I'd suggest real, proper meaty treats like chicken, ham, salami, frankfurter, not boring dry treats. You *may* find it easier to bring the pads out to the garden... seeing as he does go on them, it *may* speed this up to teach him to go on them out in the garden, and gradually reduce the size of the pad until he doesn't need them any more.
Let him mooch around with no communication. Keep all communication for afterwards. But as soon as you see him begin to squat, introduce your "go to the toilet" verbal cue.
When he goes, as he is actually peeing, don't distract him too much, but do coo gently at him. If you praise him too loudly as he's going, you may disrupt him in mid-flow, meaning he's not entirely empty when you bring him back in.
As soon as he finishes going, once he has risen out of the squat, throw a little party for him, make a huge fuss, give him several lovely, tasty treats, and make him feel very special. Then bring him back inside.
Now that he has recently toileted, you know he's safe to have loose around the house for a little while. But if you need to leave him, or are distracted by your own life for a while, and are not sure you can bring him out for a while, stick him back in his playpen. But do try to attend to his toileting needs about once an hour, less if he needs it. And as Abajanincork said, he'll need to go after waking up, after eating, and in the middle of playtime no matter what, even if he already toileted a few minutes ago.
Don't ever punish him again, it is so, so counter-productive as you've found to your cost. At worst, if you catch him in the act, and I mean in mid-squat and full flow, by all means say a calm, and gentle "no!", and bring him outside. But if this does happen, you need to chalk it down to experience and remember to be more attentive to him the next time.
Also, Gran Hermano pointed out that Bichons and their mixes can be difficult to housetrain, not because they're thick (anything but) or because they're bold, but because overbreeding has somehow managed to corrupt their "clean gene". So you may need to take that into account and use it as a reason to cut him some extra slack for any mistakes he might make.

Here's a playpen, they fold into whatever shape you want so fit into any space, and they fold down flat when you're not using them:
http://www.zooplus.ie/shop/rodents/runs_fencing/metal/8_sided/126789

KatelynneGA14

fiounnalbe wrote: »

Not to sound harsh but..he clearly doesn't understand where he is allowed go and where he is not OP, because if he did he simply wouldn't do it where he is not. He is a 5 month old puppy, he's not being cheeky he just sounds like he is confused and really needs some gentle guidance as to what is the right thing to do. Please don't just stop the punishments for now - stop them for good, it is not his fault he received mixed signals as to where is alright to toilet.

Follow DBB's advice about how to train him and I guarantee you'll have a happier more confident puppy and a happier family all round.

Can I ask how you think he is getting mixed signals? Just wondering cause I don't see any way be could be getting mixed signals

muddypaws

KatelynneGA14 wrote: »

Can I ask how you think he is getting mixed signals? Just wondering cause I don't see any way be could be getting mixed signals

Because you've used puppy pads, he now thinks it is okay to go to the toilet in the house, if you had just trained him ONLY to go to the toilet outside, that is what he would understand.

You posted a while ago about him messing in the house, did you start getting up during the night to take him outside?

KatelynneGA14

Gran Hermano wrote: »

OP you won't get better advice than what DBB has provided.
Unfortunately I've also seen several people fail with puppy pads.
You're confusing the crap out of the dog by rewarding it for toileting indoors. Bichons and Bichon mongrels have a reputation for being stubborn to toilet train as well. You're getting slightly better results at night as the old saying that a dog won't crap where it sleeps is true in the main.

Go back to basics, praise the dog immediately when it toilets out doors. Go seriously over the top with praise and a small high value treat. It'll mean frequent trips outdoors. Once an hour is what I'd suggest and yes it'll mean you standing beside the dog and waiting in the cold for up to ten minutes each time until the dog learns outdoors, "go pee", pee and reward.
It needs to be a positive experience for the dog so when it does pee outdoors act as if they've just found you a winning lottery ticket.
Best of luck. Put the work in. Praise the good and ignore the bad/mistakes.

I have literally sat outside with him for over an hour and he won't go outside. No matter what you do. We can go outdoors for hours and hours and he will wait until we are in some indoor place (yesterday it was a school). He doesn't like the feel of grass or concrete much. It's a struggle to get him going for a walk. Even when I leave him outside for 4 hours+ when I need to go out, the back garden is clean and he does it as soon as he comes in. I can't praise him for something he just refuses to do.

beertons

Crate training. He has too much freedom at the moment, walking into a different room to relieve himself. Whilst I haven't done it myself, I feel it is what you need to do. Everyone I hear mention it, raves about it.

KatelynneGA14

maringo wrote: »

Sounds like the dog is very confused. I have never used puppy pads - they weren't thought of when I had my first dog. The only way I would train a puppy is to take them outdoors as the op said every hour - horrible in the winter weather but that is the only sure way I know of the dog getting the message that outdoors is THE toilet. If they get into the habit of peeing in an area they will continue. Could you fence off a small area of the garden maybe temporarily as a toilet area and put him out there regularly? Persistence is the only way to avoid confusing the animal. Personally I would never use puppy pads in the house - might be an idea to put a used one and a clean one outside where you want him to go so he can be led out to that on the hour. No easy way out of this - just persistence and patience will pay off.

Thanks for the reply. I have cornered the garden off for him to go there, but as I've said, he just refuses to go outdoors. No matter what. I have resorted to putting puppy pads outside just so he knows he can go out there, but it's no use. He literally just goes the second you let him back in the house.

KatelynneGA14

Thank you! I'll try the outside training again and hopefully he will understand this time. I'll get a playpen and see if that works. Thanks.

Caprica6

You cant or should not ever hit a dog/puppy or shove there nose in crap.

The way to do it is to keep putting him onto the pad, also its not ideal as its cold but during the day keep him out as long as possible to do his business every time hes goes praise and rub him after.

All Puppies have a smaller bladders and function then a fully grown adult dog they cant hold on for long and generally have to pee nearly every hr on the hr if not less.

Have you been moving his training pad about? Is hitting him or shouting at him making him nervous? Also most dogs don't like going in the same area they might sleep!

Positive reinforcement and understanding its not the puppies fault is the way to go.

DBB

KatelynneGA14 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. I have cornered the garden off for him to go there, but as I've said, he just refuses to go outdoors. No matter what. I have resorted to putting puppy pads outside just so he knows he can go out there, but it's no use. He literally just goes the second you let him back in the house.

If you decide to set up the playpen, I'd suggest you provide him with a litter tray of sand... it's a different substrate that he might be encouraged to go in (most dogs love peeing on sand). The tray can then be moved outside gradually.
He is a bad habit OP, reverse housetraining is difficult to undo.. so when I say going back to basics, I really mean it. New substrate, new curtailment of puppy's movements around the house until he's trained, no punishment, lots of patience.
When you say you've tried waiting outside with him, how often have you tried? Honestly?! Is tonight the first time you've accompanied him outside?
When you say he doesn't like going for walks, what do you mean? Does he just put the brakes on? How long are his walks generally?

Caprica6

Also If your dog refuses to go out side don't force him make it a fun play time for him try throwing a ball out side or sit out and rub him and let him/her relax until they naturally have to go, the more you relax with your dog and stop putting emphasis on pee pee time the more likely he/she will do it. The more you bring your pup outside and socialize it with other things, dogs and people the less scared it will be.

Patience is key with puppies there basically children, you might have to accompany him outside so he can pee. Especially if use to going in the house.

Have to say I never use training pads a lot of folk I know have and they seemed to never work.

ShaShaBear

If you are going outside with him and getting frustrated and shouting etc, combined with you punish-rewarding him for going inside, he is probably afraid of you. He's never been praised for going outside, but he obviously has for going inside. Ergo he waits to get inside, as there is a chance you might be nice to him.

Go back and read the thread that DBB linked, which is about MY 5 month old puppy, who (thanks to abusive foster parents) is now so terrified of getting punished like you do to your dog, that he eats his own faeces so no-one will find it.

Your puppy cannot hold it forever at that age, and chances are if you really are going outside, you are doing it at the wrong time. How often is the puppy fed, how much water do they get?

Dump the puppy pads, take one and soak it on the next accident in the house. Take it outside and rub it all over the grass. Then, around half an hour after he has any food or water, take him outside to that spot and wait. Encourage him if he sniffs his scent. Tell him he is good. Then, when he goes, make a HUGE deal out of them and THEN let him back inside. If he has an accident inside, you weren't supervising him, so that is on you, not the puppy. And when I say take him out, I mean stand right beside him, not at the doorway while he wanders around aimlessly.

You IGNORE accidents inside the house, and praise toileting outside. When you praise a dog for doing something you are telling them that repeating it gets good things. After a few tries they pinpoint exactly what combination of things you expect from them. When you punish them, they take much longer to come to the same conclusion and usually develop fear and behavioural problems before they figure out exactly what you want. Some dogs never figure it out. Puppy peed inside, you slap them and force their nose into a pool of steaming urine. Seriously, think about that and how it makes a defenceless puppy feel. They are terrified of you, may turn to aggression when anyone touches their head and may OR may not associate the punishment with the pee/poop on the floor. But sometimes when they go inside you don't do that. You are a totally unpredictable danger to your pup. Maybe he'll start eating and lapping up his own messes to avoid getting beaten - I'm now getting up at 4am every morning to take my puppy outside on a lead so he can vomit up his own poo thanks to people who punish their dogs like that.

ene

i agree with all the other posters have said just too add though...

think about your nose and how much you can smell with it, a dogs nose can smell a million more things...now would you like your nose to be put anywhere near your poo? its the same for a dog! in my house the dog is a member of my family so treat him like it

also when you go outside keep the dog on a lead or confined to a small area and ignore him until he does something don't play or anything as this distracts the puppy!