ICT Specialists (Executive Officer level) in Civil Service

kippy

mitresize5 wrote: »

out of curiosity I opened this thread and then opened the information booklet

So basically the closing date for applications was 15 November 2014 and they still haven't recruited anyone.

Pretty much tells you all you need to know about the civil/public service ...... do these people live in the real world at all?

So what does these alleged facts tell you about the civil/public service? What disconnect from the real world do you see?

rostalof

mitresize5 wrote: »

out of curiosity I opened this thread and then opened the information booklet

So basically the closing date for applications was 15 November 2014 and they still haven't recruited anyone.

Pretty much tells you all you need to know about the civil/public service ...... do these people live in the real world at all?

Why let facts get in the way of an opportunity to moan about the civil service. People have been placed in these positions since May.

The_Conductor

The short and simple- is that despite the ending of the official moratorium on recruitment of staff- the floodgates have not opened- and Departments have to have individual posts sanctioned on a case by case basis- in keeping with the agreed staff ceilings for the Departments. When you factor into the equation two big issues-

1. Employees of agencies under the auspices of Departments have their staffing counted towards the overall staff ceilings of government Departments. So you end up with with organisations under whom government Departments have tenuous control at best- influencing the ability of government Departments to staff themselves.

2. McCreevy's Decentralisation scheme has severely bolloxed up many government Departments- where there are excesses of staff in some locations- with whom Departments have difficulty allocating work- while simultaneously having vast numbers of overstretched and overworked staff in other locations- who are at breaking point- and neither those with too little work, nor those who are getting slaughtered- want to move location. The whole refrain of let them videoconference- is moot- far and away the largest concentrations of misplaced staff are at the lower ranks- and higher ranked staff (who increasingly include EOs and upwards) do move about as required (however, mileage, travel and subsistence and overtime- is micromanaged from above- to minimise costs). As for videoconferencing- its far from unusual to have a single video conference unit available in an office despite core functions of that office being conducted in a decentralised office on the other side of the country.

We are going to be picking up the pieces from McCreevy's botched decentralisation scheme- for the next 10-15 years........

As for decentralisation- as a concept- it makes a lot of sense. However- the whole issue was politicised- and there were rash decisions made to give every little constituency some sort of a government office. It was also sold to the electorate that these posts were Dublin posts being decentralised to the regions- which was a load of bollox. McCreevy's decentralisation scheme- was only the latest such scheme (they had been going on since the 1960s). At the outset of the scheme- fewer than 1-in-3 of all civil servants worked in Dublin- just over 2/3 were based in locations other than Dublin. And as for the decentralisation of posts- less than a quarter of those who moved were from Dublin to other locations- over 3/4 were from one already decentralised location to another (Longford to Carrick- is the example that is normally held up to show how stark this was).

Departments have been instructed to utilise their pre-existing resources to the best of their abilities before they are allowed recruit new staff. However- they are hamstrung in that they can't physically move staff from one location to another location- for political reasons aside from anything else- so there is a sort of an impasse going on............

Are more EO ICTs required- hell yes. Whats holding up their recruitment- among other things- it could be an unauthorised clerical officer in a satellite office of a body under the auspices of the parent Department............

Anyone who knows how all of this is going down- are forever metaphorically hitting their heads off the table in frustration- as nothing is changing- and no-one is allowed to say anything.

No politician is going to stick their necks out and admit they've allowed an office in Tubbercurry (or where-ever) close- because there wasn't enough work for the staff there- in order to allow an office in Newbridge in Co. Kildare recruit people before there is an insurrection there.......... Similarly- no-one is going to try to force the unions into allowing Management compel staff to move locations- esp. as the staff in Carrick (or where-ever) may have fought rearguard actions for years to get to Carrick...........

Its a mess- and its all feeding into current recruitment or lack thereof.

Maximus_1

My better half interviewed for these roles last week. What she found very unusual having been in IT for over 15 years was that there were no real IT questions to answer in the interview!

General airy fairy stuff like communication style, decision making etc. She was expecting at least some technical questions to get a gauge of her knowledge but nada. In short she came out wondering how are they to going to make sure they end up with good ICT skilled people who can get sh1t done as opposed to folks who can waffle about their communication skills being concise and clear?!

RobbieTheRobber

Maximus_1 wrote: »

My better half interviewed for these roles last week. What she found very unusual having been in IT for over 15 years was that there were no real IT questions to answer in the interview!

General airy fairy stuff like communication style, decision making etc. She was expecting at least some technical questions to get a gauge of her knowledge but nada. In short she came out wondering how are they to going to make sure they end up with good ICT skilled people who can get sh1t done as opposed to folks who can waffle about their communication skills being concise and clear?!

IMO they are assuming that anyone who has the requisite degree/diploma (to meet the requirements to be considered for the position) in IT should have the skills required for a ICT entry level position.
They are also not interviewing for a specific role so asking specific application or environment based questions may have no relevance to the role a successful candidate will take.

fxotoole

Maximus_1 wrote: »

My better half interviewed for these roles last week. What she found very unusual having been in IT for over 15 years was that there were no real IT questions to answer in the interview!

General airy fairy stuff like communication style, decision making etc. She was expecting at least some technical questions to get a gauge of her knowledge but nada. In short she came out wondering how are they to going to make sure they end up with good ICT skilled people who can get sh1t done as opposed to folks who can waffle about their communication skills being concise and clear?!

Because an EO ICT is expected to be able to undertake tasks that a regular EO would undertake, while also being an expert in ICT. They need to ensure that the people they recruit have the skills that a regular EO would have, while also having the technical abilities to perform the ICT part of the EO ICT role.

An EO recruited from this competition may at some point in their career decide to, or be required to switch to the non ICT stream of the civil service, so they'd have to have all the "soft" skills that a regular EO would have, in order to deal with people, lead teams, analyse and make decisions, deliver results, etc.

The_Conductor

Even in an IT post- you can still have a number of contractors nominally reporting to you, have to do monthly invoices, liaise with and generate briefing notes for project boards, liaise with the business side- particularly in design work, produce manuals and other publications, be capable of running all manner of metrics, be available to assist with PQs, Reps etc etc

An EO ICT- is an EO- with all the skills of an EO- with in addition- a speciality in a particular IT stream. Its pretty normal these days to stream EO ICTs into either SQL or Java- and train them up in this particular stream- its not a broad IT background that they're looking for- its a mentality which they can use to mold you in their desired manner. Just because you are a dab hand at security, networking, hardware, have managed a helpdesk- or done low level programming- does not mean you will ever get the opportunity to display these skills in an IT role- much as you would hope you would......

These are the sort of questions you really should be asking at the end of the interview- they will always leave a small segment at the end for you to ask or clarify any questions you may have- make sure you use it wisely.

Calina

Maximus_1 wrote: »

My better half interviewed for these roles last week. What she found very unusual having been in IT for over 15 years was that there were no real IT questions to answer in the interview!

General airy fairy stuff like communication style, decision making etc. She was expecting at least some technical questions to get a gauge of her knowledge but nada. In short she came out wondering how are they to going to make sure they end up with good ICT skilled people who can get sh1t done as opposed to folks who can waffle about their communication skills being concise and clear?!

Communications and decision making are not airy fairy stuff and technical people who are bad at them are basically bad at their jobs regardless of how in-depth a knowledge they have of any particular programming language or networking infrastructure.

An ICT skilled person who cannot use a technical example to illustrate effective communication and decision making has signally failed to demonstrate either communications or technical skills.

Organisations which want to hire good people will recognise the skills which can be acquired easily through training (pretty much most technical stuff particularly when someone already has some technical skills) and worry less about them than they will about identifying whether this person is a good cultural fit for the organisation or not.

fxotoole

Did the interview today. What threw me was that I had prepared my best examples of where I had demonstrated each competency. The interview board turned this on its' head by cherrypicking roles on my application form and asking how that role related to a chosen competency.

It was a hard one to call but I don't think I did too badly as I managed to salvage it insofar as I could.

Noisin

What number on the panel are they at now, will they be calling more for interview?

Maximus_1

Mrs Maximus got her result via message board this morning. Placed number 2. I imagine this will lead to a job offer albeit likely in Dublin but sure we will cross our fingers

CP30

Hi does anyone know how many jobs are being offered - say if some one gets in the top 15 order of merit do you think they will get an offer in Dublin?

Noisin

well done on doing so well on your interview panel.
Does anybody know how long the panel for appitude test is valid for, is it a year or over. I am no 295, I wonder is there any hope of being called for an interview.

fxotoole

Didn't get past the interview stage. Not too bothered as I'm on a HEO ICT panel in my own dept anyhow.

I was placed between number 210 - 220 and whether or not nore people are going to be called to interview depends entirely on whether or not more EO ICT's are needed

GGbutterfly90

Hi All

This question is directed at the people like myself that have taken up EO ICT positions. How are the rest of you guys getting on. Are ye happy with the work and the pay?

Personally I think I pulled the short straw. I am working on an out of date unsupported system. This is absolutely no benefit to me or to my CV. There is no budget in this department for any training. My HEO give me a lot of Clerical Officer duties because the CO's in the section are here so long and refuse to do the work. Even the money is crap but I knew that coming in. 2 of the other EO's recruited before I arrived have left already and have not being replaced.

I have 3 more months to serve in my probation period. Then I think its time to start having babies.............

fxotoole

GGbutterfly90 wrote: »

Hi All

This question is directed at the people like myself that have taken up EO ICT positions. How are the rest of you guys getting on. Are ye happy with the work and the pay?

Personally I think I pulled the short straw. I am working on an out of date unsupported system. This is absolutely no benefit to me or to my CV. There is no budget in this department for any training. My HEO give me a lot of Clerical Officer duties because the CO's in the section are here so long and refuse to do the work. Even the money is crap but I knew that coming in. 2 of the other EO's recruited before I arrived have left already and have not being replaced.

I have 3 more months to serve in my probation period. Then I think its time to start having babies.............

Sounds like the Department your working for has made a case for an EO (ICT) where a regular EO would have been sufficient. I've seen several cases of that happening in this particular campaign.

Can you request a transfer to another ICT-related post in another Department, or perhaps seek a transfer through the union?

fxotoole

Looks like PAS are launching another panel:

http://publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/campaignAdvert/30314.htm

was the 2014 panel exhausted already?

The_Conductor

fxotoole wrote: »

Looks like PAS are launching another panel:

http://publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/campaignAdvert/30314.htm

was the 2014 panel exhausted already?

It was only supposed to last for 2 years anyway- though it could very well have been exhausted (esp. given the number of people who turned down offers on the panel.........)

Bringing in people with a couple of years experience on the EO salary scale- while it might have worked during the downturn- is not going to cut the mustard these days.

Noisin

Correct me if I am wrong but the last time the qualification required was a level 8, this time it is a level 6. They must have dropped the standard of qualification. Also I thought the last time the starting salary was 29,000, for this time around it is 29,000.

Slydice

Nope, in the last one people could apply with a leaving cert and at least one year of ICT experience.

Starting salary in the booklet was €27,464

I don't see that path available in this booklet.

Maybe it's AO ye're thinkin of?

ifElseThen

The starting salary for this is shocking. Especially when a dude I know contracting for Revenue is on €98,000 as a subcontractor to the large IT consultancy in there.

gazzer

ifElseThen wrote: »

The starting salary for this is shocking. Especially when a dude I know contracting for Revenue is on €98,000 as a subcontractor to the large IT consultancy in there.

It baffles me that there is no allowance for EO ICT grades. I was an EO(JSA) for 8 years but only got to do HelpDesk work. This was despite me doing a degree in IT. Ended up moving out of the IT area into the general Civil Service as it was the only way I had a chance to progress in my career. All the while there were contractors earning multiples of what I was earning and doing the work that I wanted to do.

The_Conductor

gazzer wrote: »

It baffles me that there is no allowance for EO ICT grades. I was an EO(JSA) for 8 years but only got to do HelpDesk work. This was despite me doing a degree in IT. Ended up moving out of the IT area into the general Civil Service as it was the only way I had a chance to progress in my career. All the while there were contractors earning multiples of what I was earning and doing the work that I wanted to do.

I could have written the exact passage.......
Exact same here- both an IT undergrad and postgrad- and have now similarly left IT for an admin area.

ncit9933

Where's the regional posts likely to be?

The_Conductor

ncit9933 wrote: »

Where's the regional posts likely to be?

The larger Departments would probably have a good number of posts in the likes of Athlone, Carrick-on-Shannon, Portlaoise, Limerick, Cork city, Clonakilty......... Outside of that, it would predominantly be Dublin posts.

Jobsearch16

To those of you working as EO ICT Specialists, could I please enquire how stressful these positions are? I suppose in comparison to working in MNC's. Are you given enough time to settle in and learn the systems or do you have to be up and running almost immediately which has been my experience in nearly every MNC I have worked in over the last 15 yrs. Thank you to those who will take time to reply

The_Conductor

Jobsearch16 wrote: »

To those of you working as EO ICT Specialists, could I please enquire how stressful these positions are? I suppose in comparison to working in MNC's. Are you given enough time to settle in and learn the systems or do you have to be up and running almost immediately which has been my experience in nearly every MNC I have worked in over the last 15 yrs. Thank you to those who will take time to reply

It depends entirely on the section you're assigned to- however (and keep in mind the last decade hasn't been particularly representative)-

1. Probably at least 4 times more contractors than civil service staff

2. Contractors may be from several different companies (Version 1, Deloitte etc) and may not talk to one another

3. You'll probably be instructed to keep contact with the contractors on a strictly project specific basis (i.e. no asking for opinions or help with your SQL or Java)

4. Training will probably be minimalistic- i.e. you get a few days of SQL or Java- and thereafter you're expected to brush up on the go

5. You're not necessarily placed in a manner to use your pre-existing skillset- for example in a new group of 6- the HEO/AP can point at the first 3- you, you and you- you're going to be SQL programmers- and you, you and you- you're on Java.........

6. You may have a selection of test environments- which may be open to you at various times- but not consistently- and if the contractors are running a fresh build (which could happen several times a day) in one of these environments- you may not be told- and may be bashing your head off the table wondering why your code is throwing up all manner of weird and wonderful errors

7. Some software that you're accustomed to- may be yanked with little/no warning (think Toad for example)- as someone somewhere decides they don't want to pay the licensing fees

8. Your external access to online resources (code repositories etc) may be curtailed depending on what access internet access is considered appropriate for you- for example you may have access to Oracle specific sites- but not bulletin boards where code is discussed etc etc

9. Some of the managers may imagine that knowledge is power and try to impart as little of it as possible to you- meaning you have little idea whats going on- and are told nothing (even the contractors often know more than the civil servants)

10. Some of the managers may be extremely grade conscious- and consider that because they are HEOs or APs- that they are superior to you- and needn't interact with you (honestly- this bull is probably among the worst you'll find)

I could go on and on........

It can be stressful- but it really depends on the section you find yourself in- and the attitudes of your co-workers and your managers.

If you end up in one of the echelon's of hell- on the brightside- opportunities to move do come up (eventually).

art

There's a public service reform process on going which speaks of IT specialisation yet the depressing reality is as you've outlined. There just seems to be no genuine interest in allowing our own people become skilled and productive and despite the BS from the reform panel about how highly they value staff, there's no value placed on IT personnel from my experience. My take on it is that it is a much easier task, if say you miss a deadline, to say 'ah well the contract company let me down' than to say 'my project management wasn't great/my staff weren't properly prepared, etc'. I expect in a few years, IT services will be sold off out to the market entirely. It's depressing to me but I hope those above affected by this at least agitate as much as practical and try push through change - go to the "townhall" things they do and ask the hard questions: why am I being denied the opportunity to develop skills, why are people's skills and experience not being recognised, and so on. Make them face their hypocrisy.

sneem

Hi folks,
I was told about 10 months ago I made the panel and have been rang twice but the jobs were too far away, not sure how long more in the panel but in the off chance I do get something near home can I ask the following.
1. the starter wage is 27k, how soon before you get up to 40k,
2. what pension does a new starter gets these days as after so many public service agreements I'm not sure what data is in date.
3. Anyone in there regret going into this position.
4. Do they allow work from home to avoid along commutes as I live in an rural area.
5. Is it a nice place in general to work compared to the private sector or is a depressing environment.
6. is it easy to move around if you don't get put you in an area you are not skilled in.

I guess the big one though is how quickly is the progression in wages from a badly paid 27k upwards.
I am currently on 50k in private sector.
John

DublinWriter

art wrote: »

I expect in a few years, IT services will be sold off out to the market entirely.

Most of it already is, the process of stealthy outsourcing has been going on since the Tiger years. Most of it seems to happen on a project-by-project basis.