ICT Specialists (Executive Officer level) in Civil Service

Dothehustle

Core hours are 10 to half 12 and half 2 to 4
In my dept u can start at 8 in morning and finish at 7 at night

Calina

Sup08 wrote: »

People with private sector experience can apply for higher positions with greater pay. All options including pay are known before they apply to the civil/public service.

They can choose to stay in private sector where they can command a higher wage but with the risk of shorter term employment.

This is going way off topic for the thread.

The Civil Service via the Civil Service Renewal plan is interested in bringing people in at all levels from the private sector. The problem is that it is intrinsically unfair to give people who have six years experience of work more money than other people who have six years experience of work purely on the grounds that for some people it represents a promotion. These are open competitions.

Additionally, there is nothing stopping civil service employees applying for promotions within the civil service - after all, this is why many of them are applying for promotions via the open competitions after all.

Knowing the rules exist as they exist at the moment does not make things fair.

FWIW, I'm of the opinion that people working in IT in the civil service, particularly at the entry level grades of EO and AO are under remunerated. I also suspect - from experience - that the grade system for the civil service isn't totally appropriate for the division of information technology work within the civil service. It's not going to get fixed as I doubt the non IT grades would agree to a different salary structure for IT. Although, to be fair, it exists for other specialist roles.

Sup08

Calina wrote: »

The Civil Service via the Civil Service Renewal plan is interested in bringing people in at all levels from the private sector. The problem is that it is intrinsically unfair to give people who have six years experience of work more money than other people who have six years experience of work purely on the grounds that for some people it represents a promotion. These are open competitions.

Additionally, there is nothing stopping civil service employees applying for promotions within the civil service - after all, this is why many of them are applying for promotions via the open competitions after all.

Knowing the rules exist as they exist at the moment does not make things fair.

FWIW, I'm of the opinion that people working in IT in the civil service, particularly at the entry level grades of EO and AO are under remunerated. I also suspect - from experience - that the grade system for the civil service isn't totally appropriate for the division of information technology work within the civil service. It's not going to get fixed as I doubt the non IT grades would agree to a different salary structure for IT. Although, to be fair, it exists for other specialist roles.

I understand that there are many roles in the civil service that are under paid even at PO level but that's what you sign up for.

People with experience can apply for higher grades in open competition but like everyone else before and as long as they meet the criteria, start on the same pay scale. They have a choice not to apply.

Where in the private sector, you can very well be doing the same job as the next person and be on a different salary altogether. Especially if it is between different genders. That's certainly not fair or equal.

When you keep you years service from a promotion in the civil service, you do not get the years added on to your new role. You simply keep your exisitng salary if it is more than the entry point on the scale. You remain at this leevel until your new pay scale catches up. They cannot cut your wages.

This means a new entrant to the civil service will be on the same pay scale eventually as an existing civil servant once the pay scale has caught up with the existing civil servants current salary. What's not fair about that.

Sup08

Sup08 wrote: »

I understand that there are many roles in the civil service that are under paid even at PO level but that's what you sign up for.

People with experience can apply for higher grades in open competition but like everyone else before and as long as they meet the criteria, start on the same pay scale. They have a choice not to apply.

Where in the private sector, you can very well be doing the same job as the next person and be on a different salary altogether. Especially if it is between different genders. That's certainly not fair or equal.

When you keep you years service from a promotion in the civil service, you do not get the years added on to your new role. You simply keep your exisitng salary if it is more than the entry point on the scale. You remain at this leevel until your new pay scale catches up. They cannot cut your wages.

This means a new entrant to the civil service will be on the same pay scale eventually as an existing civil servant once the pay scale has caught up with the existing civil servants current salary. What's not fair about that.

Ability, experience, or extra qualifications count for nothing?

Sup08

Deleted User wrote: »

Ability, experience, or extra qualifications count for nothing?

They do, they get you the job and maybe a promotion once you are in the civil service. No body twists anyone's arm to join the civil service.

The terms and conditions are there before you sign up and if they don't suit, don't join.

There is no harm in asking for experience to be recognised, it has happened before where a new entrant has been placed on a higher point of the pay scale based on their experience and was deemed to be beneficial to the department. Therefore they were paid more.

Most open competitions how-ever state that new entrants would start at the entry point of the scale.

Sup08

Sup08 wrote: »

They do, they get you the job and maybe a promotion once you are in the civil service. No body twists anyone's arm to join the civil service.

The terms and conditions are there before you sign up and if they don't suit, don't join.

There is no harm in asking for experience to be recognised, it has happened before where a new entrant has been placed on a higher point of the pay scale based on their experience and was deemed to be beneficial to the department. Therefore they were paid more.

Most open competitions how-ever state that new entrants would start at the entry point of the scale.

So will not target those with best matched skills.
The year on year pay increments reward mediocrity (not that performance review is actually used as a fair tool either mind)


I've seen an ICT support dept in the HSE staffed by graduates only, not necessarily IT grads, from level 1 to 3 and the Networks/Infrastructure section unable to recruit a suitable replacement for a very experienced leaver.
Ended up with one of the support team in the role (talking a 5+ year experience role) trying miserably to catch up.

We have the exact same happening in AGS where they are trying to recruit degree level recruits with experience, only to land them at 23k a year.

The problem is not that people are unaware of the enforced scale.
The problem is the calibre of candidate this scale brings at entry level

Calina

Deleted User wrote: »

So will not target those with best matched skills.
The year on year pay increments reward mediocrity (not that performance review is actually used as a fair tool either mind)


I've seen an ICT support dept in the HSE staffed by graduates only, not necessarily IT grads, from level 1 to 3 and the Networks/Infrastructure section unable to recruit a suitable replacement for a very experienced leaver.
Ended up with one of the support team in the role (talking a 5+ year experience role) trying miserably to catch up.

We have the exact same happening in AGS where they are trying to recruit degree level recruits with experience, only to land them at 23k a year.

The problem is not that people are unaware of the enforced scale.
The problem is the calibre of candidate this scale brings at entry level

I'd argue that this is a general across the population problem. This doesn't mean that there aren't individuals with very high skills who come in even so because of other considerations - a career change, a decision to move away from some aspects of the private sector; unemployment at the time of appointment.

However, the net downside of this is it may equally see people choosing not to stay in the civil service over the long term and this may have a net negative impact on the population for promotion later. Again, this has to be seen in the context not of how things always have been, but where the civil service apparently wants to go in the future.

The fact that PAS notices state up front that people appointed on these panels come in at the first step on the scale doesn't automatically make it fair - this should apply to all candidates for open competitions including those applying from the civil service.

As a general note - btw - I strongly feel that no one should be coming into the state sector with zero experience of elsewhere. The state sector benefits from by diversity of experience but even now, there is a limited amount of it around.

Also, your comment on the entry salaries for Gardaí was something I discussed with family particularly in the context of highly specialised investigations such as financial fraud.

However, if you suggest that the starting salary for Gardaí should be at least 30KE, and that civil servants need a re-appraisal of their salary scales, there would be a significant amount of howling. We don't tend to value things very well here.

TestLink

The starting salary for this ICT role is the salary which I currently get now.

I know no one is forcing me to join. Yet could some one suggest reason(s), why I should quit my current private sector role and join this ICT civil service role?

Dothehustle

ITguru wrote: »

The starting salary for this ICT role is the salary which I currently get now.

I know no one is forcing me to join. Yet could some one suggest reason(s), why I should quit my current private sector role and join this ICT civil service role?

Just some of the what I see as main benefits
Flexi
Increment every year
Paid college fees/ paid study leave
And job security

Bad points
Wages mightnt be as high in private sector
No control over what role /systems u.'ll be looking after

Edit :Forgot about work sharing if u need it its there

TestLink

Thanks Dothehustle

IloveIT

Has anyone heard from the Public appointments since we got the message below

There are vacancies for all the candidates placed on the panel. This office will be in touch with you shortly regarding your appointment.

Just wondering how long "shortly" is.

xECompanyx

Just got a generalised message from public jobs for ICT DEV Regional trying to gauge my interest in 4 provencial locations. None of them suit me. Looks like you return the form with your interest and the first interested candidate by offer of Merit gets the bite of the cherry. I presume by not replying crosses me off the list for those Counties.

TestLink

Its seems very odd that a candidate have no choice in selecting a work place based on the tools and technologies used at a place. For eg at some place where knowledge of routing and switching is necessary and the selected candidate have only have desktop support experience. Or kinowledge of share point is required and the candidate have only Java experience!

Any way how to avoid this?

Would it be possible to get the contact details of an IT Manager etc at the job offered dept / office from public jobs and pre-check whether the place suits the prospective candidate?

anon_1975

xECompanyx wrote: »

Just got a generalised message from public jobs for ICT DEV Regional trying to gauge my interest in 4 provencial locations. None of them suit me. Looks like you return the form with your interest and the first interested candidate by offer of Merit gets the bite of the cherry. I presume by not replying crosses me off the list for those Counties.

I'm got the same and reading does seem to suggest not replying is seen as a refusal for those locations but you will be offered other counties as they come up ?

xECompanyx

anon_1975 wrote: »

I'm got the same and reading does seem to suggest not replying is seen as a refusal for those locations but you will be offered other counties as they come up ?

Ya, you will. Its a little different to how I invisaged it turning out. Looks like one offer for one dept in one location and if you don't take it, tough tittie, ur off the list. A bit rigid if you ask me. Let's hope an offer does come up for my County :-((

trot8trot

I'm in the same boat. They've given until 5:30pm tomorrow to decide.
It would be handy to know the identity of the regions/areas in advance? How many? How big? Something as small as a county? or as large, as say, 'The Midlands'? Don't want to reject one place and write off any future vacancies in a whole province as a result!
I will, of course, be ringing PAS for info on the morrow, but any advice until then very welcome.

xECompanyx

trot8trot wrote: »

I'm in the same boat. They've given until 5:30pm tomorrow to decide.
It would be handy to know the identity of the regions/areas in advance? How many? How big? Something as small as a county? or as large, as say, 'The Midlands'? Don't want to reject one place and write off any future vacancies in a whole province as a result!
I will, of course, be ringing PAS for info on the morrow, but any advice until then very welcome.

I would think it's by County and not region but PAS should be able to clarify for you. Let us know how you get on.

It says 3 working days to accept an offer yet they are looking for the form back by tomorrow evening. We only got it today??? Do the Math PAS..Numerical Reasoning??

anon_1975

xECompanyx wrote: »

Ya, you will. Its a little different to how I invisaged it turning out. Looks like one offer for one dept in one location and if you don't take it, tough tittie, ur off the list. A bit rigid if you ask me. Let's hope an offer does come up for my County :-((

Do you mind me asking what county/counties you'd be hoping for ? Is the west too much to hope for ?

anon_1975

xECompanyx wrote: »

I'm Kerry, a civil servant 17 yrs, 12 of those in Killarney...Yourself?

Mayo/Sligo 10 years plus in private sector.

anon_1975

xECompanyx wrote: »

Best of luck, my GF is Roscommon, used to those parts ;-), bit of a sphin from the Kingdom..

wow that's some sphin alright Thanks and best of luck to you too !

posy2010

Any word from Dublin panel?

Leitbrook

Hi all did anybody get offered anything in northwest... infrastructure thanks

trot8trot

xECompanyx wrote: »

I would think it's by County and not region but PAS should be able to clarify for you. Let us know how you get on.

It says 3 working days to accept an offer yet they are looking for the form back by tomorrow evening. We only got it today??? Do the Math PAS..Numerical Reasoning??

Spoke to PAS earlier today. If I understood correctly when PAS mention "location" it is precisely that, not region or county; so for example if I reject an offer from the Dept of Stuff in Ballymadeup, I will not get another offer from that specific location, however this would not stop me getting a seperate offer from the Dept of Tat in the same town at some stage in the future.

PAS said the four listed regional locations were the only ones to contact them with ICT Development vacancies so far. Plus they said they were unable to predict which Dept vacancies would next come up, or when.

Lastly I was told that PAS expected to be in a position to offer places in the four listed regional locations by the end of the week. So wait and see.

xECompanyx

Thanks for the info. Interesting, i would have assumed if you rejected a Dept in a particular County, ur gone for all other Depts in that County. If what you say is correct, that's a much better setup..

crossbeauty

Leitbrook wrote: »

Hi all did anybody get offered anything in northwest... infrastructure thanks

no nothing, but i'm not high up on panel so not expecting
to hear anytime soon (if at all!)

posy2010

Any word from the Dublin Infrastructure Panel?

IloveIT

posy2010 wrote: »

Any word from the Dublin Infrastructure Panel?

No, seems like a long wait. I called them again and they said that they are waiting for the various dep's to let them know what numbers are needed and locations. She said we would hear soon.

posy2010

IloveIT wrote: »

No, seems like a long wait. I called them again and they said that they are waiting for the various dep's to let them know what numbers are needed and locations. She said we would hear soon.

Thanks a mill

posy2010

IloveIT wrote: »

No, seems like a long wait. I called them again and they said that they are waiting for the various dep's to let them know what numbers are needed and locations. She said we would hear soon.

Thanks a mill

Ventnor

Just off the phone with PAS regarding the Regional Infrastructure panel. Looks like it will be another while until there is any movement. They are waiting for ICT departments to come back with a list of vacancies. After this we will be contacted regarding our preferences. Patience is a virtue (apparently)