"forcing" a child to see his father

LegacyUser

short summary before i go into the issue itself.

i have 9 year old son.
seperated from his father for 8 years - the father is a non EU national.
i am in a relationship with another man for 7 years - he has rared my son as his son for the entire relationship.
father has been granted limited access to see my son, 4 hours a month.
father has no interest in the child, has not contributed one cent towards his upbringing in last 8 years, disappeared for 4 years when hiding from immigration and now is back now for last 2 years.
last week he came to court looking for more access, i assume to keep his immigration rights in Ireland.
Court cases every couple of months.

so, for last one year, my son is now being forced to meet this man, who is in his eyes, a complete stranger and somebody who he doesnt want in his life. as far as my son is concerned, his dad is the one that has been spending every day with him, since he was 2 years old.

i am being forced by court to take my son to meet this man, who only turns up when it suits him, even though this man is abusive towards my son, agressive and rude. he turns up late, spends most of the meetings on the phone and has no relationship with my son.

i have recently stopped taking him as every meeting day is a nightmare, my sons life is being destroyed emotionally by this and he cannot cope - i feel so sorry for him, i believe he is being punished by the state and i am at my wits end. last week in court, i was threatened with jail if i dont bring my son to these meetings more regulary.

so here is my point, at what stage does my sons mental health become important? if he refuses to go anymore, what can i do, will i lose custody of him and be put in jail?

its a nightmare scenario that i believe i am getting no help from, all i want is whats best for my son and a normal, happy life which we have, until this man comes calling.

appreciate your time and advise here,

Linda.

Big Bag of Chips

Unfortunately, if there is an access order in place, then you have to make your child available for access. The father doesn't have to take up the access.

You need to make sure you do everything right. So you need to make sure you make your child available. If his father doesn't show up then you bring your access order to the local Garda station and get it stamped and signed as evidence that the father didn't show up on that date. The more of them you have, the stronger your argument in court. Is access supervised? The father should not be allowed to in any way threaten or intimidate the child. Would you consider involving social services, or maybe a psychologist? School should be able to advise you. Your child should have support in place anyway. But if he tells an official person his worries and fears then you may be able to present a report in court backing up your claim.

Courts are only interested in evidence. They will not listen to hearsay. There's still no guarantee that he will be allowed to stop going to see his dad, but the conditions of seeing him might become much stricter. You cannot do anything though that will jeopardise your side. If you do everything by the book, then you won't get in trouble.

LegacyUser

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Unfortunately, if there is an access order in place, then you have to make your child available for access. .

but this is my question. at what point does enough, become enough? if my son is screaming and crying that he does not want to go, what can i do? keep the meetings until when he is 18? or when does the threat of jail or losing my son, go away if i dont keep bringing him there to meet him?

if i force him, i worry he will grow up blaming me for making him go to these horrific meetings, yet thats only one side, my main concern of course is the damage this is going on his childhood.

another side is that i am worried that if he is forced to spend more time with his "father", over time it will eventually become public knowledge in his school and he will feel under pressure at school and with his friends over this - i actually think he already is and is quite ashamed of the entire sad set up.

its sad that at this age, the courts dont care one bit about the welfare of the child which should be first and foremost objective for them.

Big Bag of Chips

As kids get a little older a judge may take their opinion into consideration. But for now, all a judge has to go on is your word against your ex's. And it might surprise you how many mothers use their kids as a bargaining tool with their exes. Withholding access in return for more maintenance. Withholding access because they are jealous of a new partner. Withholding access "just because". That is why you have to gather all your evidence. You need to have proof that your son is hurt and upset and potentially damaged by the visits. It's horrible for you to have to put him through it, but it's necessary because of the many people who abuse the power of being the custodial parent. A judge can't just take the word of a parent. You need to have something solid to back up your claims.

Talk to the principal of the school, or go to your GP if you prefer. If your son is getting that upset, then he needs some sort of support. Maybe even look into the Rainbows Programme. It might benefit him. He will be with his peers, who are in similar situations to him. This is a situation that you can't stop.... Unless you do it right.

Gatling

I'd write a letter to the judge explaining the trauma your child is going through and state he's using access purely for immigration related issues .
As a previous poster recommended talk to the school they might be able to recommend your son talking to someone professional if it's effecting your child's well being

CrazyRabbit

Gatling wrote: »

I'd write a letter to the judge explaining the trauma your child is going through and state he's using access purely for immigration related issues .
As a previous poster recommended talk to the school they might be able to recommend your son talking to someone professional if it's effecting your child's well being

A letter from a child psychologist stating that your son is suffering terribly due to these visits would hold a lot of weight with a judge also.

LegacyUser

The judge is granting four hours a month. He, in all reasonableness, cannot grant any less than that without some kind of substantiation, like violence, abuse etc to deny a biological father access rights, without frankly legislating from the bench or behaving like an activist judge.

Does he have legal rights too or just four hours a month? Is it supervised?

What other mothers allegedly do, which is basically bigoted hearsay, is really nothing to do with you and should not be brought into assessing your situation as it is prejudicial an unsubstantiated, not to mention irrelevent.

When your son is 12, he can tell the judge he doesn't want t see him, and the judge might likely grant his wish.

Are you married to the man you live with? If not, then get married. If you did end up in gaol, which you won't, at least then there is another legal custodian.

If you can prove the coincidence between immigration issues and wanting access, I think htat would be a very good start. He could counter argue with the reason he hasn't seen his child is that he was scared and in hiding from immigration and that led to a pitfall of depression yadda yadda...didn't want to attach and form a bond if he was going to be deported anyway...yadda yadda....

Big Bag of Chips

dontworry wrote: »

What other mothers allegedly do, which is basically bigoted hearsay, is really nothing to do with you and should not be brought into assessing your situation as it is prejudicial an unsubstantiated, not to mention irrelevent.

The point is, judges hear excuses and unsubstantiated claims in the family court every single day... And they are not interested!

The important word in this is "unsubstantiated". And it goes for both of you. You can't make unsubstantiated claims that your son is too upset/afraid to go, you need proof of this in the form of some sort of correspondence from someone impartial. Like a psychologist, maybe even your GP, or his teacher. You can't just turn up in court and say your ex hasn't shown up for access on x, y and z dates. You need proof, in the form of a stamp on the order from the local Garda station. Your ex can't make unsubstantiated claims about you and not have proof to back them up either. Judges hear all sorts of excuses. And your line of your son not wanting to go, without proof to back it up, is just another excuse.

If you have evidence to support your claims the judge will take it into account. If you both start with "he said/she said" then it will come down to who is more believable/convincing on the day.

Tasden

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

The point is, judges hear excuses and unsubstantiated claims in the family court every single day... And they are not interested!

The important word in this is "unsubstantiated". And it goes for both of you. You can't make unsubstantiated claims that your son is too upset/afraid to go, you need proof of this in the form of some sort of correspondence from someone impartial. Like a psychologist, maybe even your GP, or his teacher. You can't just turn up in court and say your ex hasn't shown up for access on x, y and z dates. You need proof, in the form of a stamp on the order from the local Garda station. Your ex can't make unsubstantiated claims about you and not have proof to back them up either. Judges hear all sorts of excuses. And your line of your son not wanting to go, without proof to back it up, is just another excuse.

If you have evidence to support your claims the judge will take it into account. If you both start with "he said/she said" then it will come down to who is more believable/convincing on the day.

I know what you're saying to the OP but this is so hard to actually do. You've made great suggestions that should help but getting proof the child is afraid to go isn't easy.

Personally in my situation I have so much evidence in the form of texts from the father basically saying from the horses mouth that he couldn't be bothered, and demonstrating the verbal abuse I'm subjected to for no reason. None of it matters in court.

Schools generally don't get involved in those types of matters because like you said it all comes down to he said she said. Most schools will only be in a position to document who collects child and if child exhibits certain behavioural issues, they can't say its down to anything because thats not something they're qualified to do. So anything they do write will mean nothing really.

Rainbows cant discuss what the kids talk about with either parents and if one parent doesn't want the child there then they can't accept the child in the programme. (I know this was suggested as a support for the child more than for evidence, was just as an fyi for op in case she thought it could be a way to show it)

A child psychologist may be able to document something but i don't know.

I know this doesn't help OP, i guess I just wanted to let you know I understand your frustration. Maybe go to FLAC and ask if they can think of anything. Unfortunately for all the talk of father's rights and the issues fathers face in family courts, it can be just as difficult for some mothers that are genuinely trying to do right by their child. But like the previous poster said there is a lot of using children as pawns (both men and women) and there isn't really a way to decipher unfortunately.

Big Bag of Chips

Sorry, I know the school can't diagnose or attribute behaviour to any one thing, but the school can get in contact with a child psychologist if they feel the child's behaviour is out of the ordinary. (Is his behaviour in school something that would concern teachers? You mention that he is getting embarrassed by the set up.. This is where Rainbows would help him. He'd realise he's not the only one.)

It is so difficult, as the previous poster mentioned, even if you have all your information. So imagine how far you'll get with just your word against his.

LegacyUser

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Sorry, I know the school can't diagnose or attribute behaviour to any one thing, but the school can get in contact with a child psychologist if they feel the child's behaviour is out of the ordinary. (Is his behaviour in school something that would concern teachers? You mention that he is getting embarrassed by the set up.. This is where Rainbows would help him. He'd realise he's not the only one.)

It is so difficult, as the previous poster mentioned, even if you have all your information. So imagine how far you'll get with just your word against his.

Without a very concrete linked correlation of abuse within the FOUR HOURS A MONTH of contact which is really nothing, a psychologist's report is not going to prove any kind of direct correlation. Not only that, it could be counter turned against the custodial parent... In addition to that, you can get in an endless cycle of appeals and second opinions costing endless amounts of time and money.

Embarrassment is not a reason (a concern yes) enough for a judge to deny access to a biological father.

What exactly makes these meetings a nightmare? There might be ways to lessen the horror if you can give some examples.

loubian

worried mother Linda wrote: »

short summary before i go into the issue itself.

i have 9 year old son.
seperated from his father for 8 years - the father is a non EU national.
i am in a relationship with another man for 7 years - he has rared my son as his son for the entire relationship.
father has been granted limited access to see my son, 4 hours a month.
father has no interest in the child, has not contributed one cent towards his upbringing in last 8 years, disappeared for 4 years when hiding from immigration and now is back now for last 2 years.
last week he came to court looking for more access, i assume to keep his immigration rights in Ireland.
Court cases every couple of months.

so, for last one year, my son is now being forced to meet this man, who is in his eyes, a complete stranger and somebody who he doesnt want in his life. as far as my son is concerned, his dad is the one that has been spending every day with him, since he was 2 years old.

i am being forced by court to take my son to meet this man, who only turns up when it suits him, even though this man is abusive towards my son, agressive and rude. he turns up late, spends most of the meetings on the phone and has no relationship with my son.

i have recently stopped taking him as every meeting day is a nightmare, my sons life is being destroyed emotionally by this and he cannot cope - i feel so sorry for him, i believe he is being punished by the state and i am at my wits end. last week in court, i was threatened with jail if i dont bring my son to these meetings more regulary.

so here is my point, at what stage does my sons mental health become important? if he refuses to go anymore, what can i do, will i lose custody of him and be put in jail?

its a nightmare scenario that i believe i am getting no help from, all i want is whats best for my son and a normal, happy life which we have, until this man comes calling.

appreciate your time and advise here,

Linda.

This is almost exactly like my situation. If there is a court order, you can bring him back on breech of order or get it varied. Keep a diary of everything - when he is late, doesn't show up, when he texts, what he says to the child. Why were you in court that you were threatened with jail? Do you have a solicitor or do you represent yourself?

Big Bag of Chips

dontworry wrote: »

Without a very concrete linked correlation of abuse within the FOUR HOURS A MONTH of contact which is really nothing, a psychologist's report is not going to prove any kind of direct correlation.

Well if we just take court and the parents out of it for a minute going by what the OP has said the child could do with speaking to someone. And seeing a child psychologist may or may not help with court cases but it can't do any harm to the child to have someone listen to him and maybe help him figure out a lot of what he's feeling.

You may not be able to stop access, OP, but you can at least get your son as much help as possible to deal with it.

LegacyUser

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Well if we just take court and the parents out of it for a minute going by what the OP has said the child could do with speaking to someone. And seeing a child psychologist may or may not help with court cases but it can't do any harm to the child to have someone listen to him and maybe help him figure out a lot of what he's feeling.

You may not be able to stop access, OP, but you can at least get your son as much help as possible to deal with it.

Generally there seems to be inadequate provisions by the courts for reunifications with absent fathers. There appears no strategies or infrastructures in place for this.

This is a highly specialised area in family systems and yes the child and the whole family, all stakeholders would need support in it so I would take control out of the schools hands and find someone who knows what they are doing. I doubt the educational psychologists can negotiate this territory.

Until OP is more specific on why and how these meetings are a nightmare, I think it's wiser to hold back on encouraging means on which to block the minimal access there already is, get some details and maybe find a way to reduce the stress.

There are a lot of reasons the child could be anxious, but it's evident EVERYONE has let him down, including the courts, into how to manage starting a relationship with a biological parent after 9 years of absence and only four hours a month.

If the father is a non EU national there also might be significant cultural differences and expecations on parenting and children.

SIX PACK

Truth be told I say you done everything in your power to not let your Son have a bonding Relationship with his biological Father for past 8 years.
So is it any wonder he barely knows who his Dad is.


*mod note*
Your post is hard to make sense of but it also looks like a direct attack on the op based on idol speculation.
Please do not attack other posters.

loubian

SIX PACK wrote: »

Truth be told I say you done everything in your power to not let your Son have a bonding Relationship with his biological Father for past 8 years.
So is it any wonder he barely knows who his Dad is.

Ignore this. It is not the sole mothers responsibility for the father and child to build a relationship. As you have said in your opening post, you've been there when he hasn't shown up, disappeared for 4 years, n then expects you to do what he says. The father knew where you lived, more than likely had your number, had fb, the courts etc to try n see his child and he didn't. Sick of people blaming the mothers who sit in every weekend waiting for the father of their child to show up and he just saunters in, whenever he likes, having no regard to how it disrupts the child's routine as well.

LegacyUser

Thank you so much to everybody for your great advice, some really helpful things here and I really appreciate it.

I do not want to go into details as to why the meetings are not good for my son, all i will say is that they are very uncomfortable and borderline nightmare scenario for my son. The man is rude and shows no interests, amongest other things such as shouting at my son, being abusive and making my son really really uncomfortable.

One day he actually had to run away from him in tears such was the level of drama this was causing.

SIX PACK wrote: »

Truth be told I say you done everything in your power to not let your Son have a bonding Relationship with his biological Father for past 8 years.
So is it any wonder he barely knows who his Dad is.

You make me sick. This man didnt want anything to do with my son for 4 years (and truth be told its actually 8 years he doesnt care), he never came near us.

He has not contributed one cent towards the child in 8 years. In this 8 years, he has been barred from our house by the police (i wont go into reasons), has been arrested for not paying maintenance and has been denied access by courts for years as a result. He then comes back looking for access 4 years later, gets granted four hours a month and shouts at my son, treats him like crap and abuses him, when he does decide to show. Why does he deserve to have a bonding relationship, when another man has raised his son for him?

As i said, people like you make me sick when you dont even know the story behind it. Why you are so quick to blame me i do not know.

Deenie123

worried mother Linda wrote: »

The man is rude and shows no interests, amongest other things such as shouting at my son, being abusive and making my son really really uncomfortable.

One day he actually had to run away from him in tears such was the level of drama this was causing.

.....

he has been barred from our house by the police (i wont go into reasons)

.....

shouts at my son, treats him like crap and abuses him, when he does decide to show.

Can you film any of this? Can you get a hidden camera to put on your son during these meetings and use the footage? I know it all sounds a bit tin-foil hatty but it sounds like his biological father is really bad for him and needs to be dealt out of the picture.

I don't know if the court would accept footage like that though?

Is there any chance of talking to a garda, maybe a community garda who's used to dealing with kids? Explain the situation that you're concerned about how the visits are affecting him and want some sort of documentation of what's going on in those visits. Maybe ask them if you can have your son himself make a report about his biological father's behaviour when it's out of line or upsetting?

Best of luck, OP.

SIX PACK

worried mother Linda wrote: »

Thank you so much to everybody for your great advice, some really helpful things here and I really appreciate it.

I do not want to go into details as to why the meetings are not good for my son, all i will say is that they are very uncomfortable and borderline nightmare scenario for my son. The man is rude and shows no interests, amongest other things such as shouting at my son, being abusive and making my son really really uncomfortable.

One day he actually had to run away from him in tears such was the level of drama this was causing.




You make me sick. This man didnt want anything to do with my son for 4 years (and truth be told its actually 8 years he doesnt care), he never came near us.

He has not contributed one cent towards the child in 8 years. In this 8 years, he has been barred from our house by the police (i wont go into reasons), has been arrested for not paying maintenance and has been denied access by courts for years as a result. He then comes back looking for access 4 years later, gets granted four hours a month and shouts at my son, treats him like crap and abuses him, when he does decide to show. Why does he deserve to have a bonding relationship, when another man has raised his son for him?

As i said, people like you make me sick when you dont even know the story behind it. Why you are so quick to blame me i do not know.

If he is Non EU.
What Nationality is the Father it would answer a lot of questions very quick.

Moral of the story. ~ stick to your own. Sorry for my ignorant earlier post.

hawkwind23

Parenting is not pay as you go? More to bring a father than paying maintenance
We only have one side of the argument here and it does appear quite emotional and defensive.
I'm making no comment bar that if when we hear the fathers version of events, if he does want a relationship with the boy then this will be encouraged by the courts.
Impossible to pass judgement without both sides of the argument

January

At this point OP, I am going to close this thread and advise you to seek legal advice. Either from your solicitor or from FLAC.ie . I'd also advise you to seek the advice of a professional child psychologist or counselor for your son if, as you say, all this is having a negative effect on him.