Commonage/hill farmers issues thread, GLAS, GAEC, etc etc

Username John

Capercaillie wrote: »

NPWS Natterjack toad scheme. You get paid to dig ponds and manage the grazing (tight sward) around the ponds.

Oh - there I go I suppose

I just had a look, it seems to have been a REPS 4 option.

Do those ponds have to be removed for the maps now?

Capercaillie

Username John wrote: »

Oh - there I go I suppose

I just had a look, it seems to have been a REPS 4 option.

Do those ponds have to be removed for the maps now?

I don't know, but the area of the pond would be tiny so the relative loss would be a lot less than the payment.

Farmer

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

I see ICSA are holding a land eligibility meeting in Maam Cross tonight, I think I'll take a spin over and see what their story is.

Did anybody get to this? Any feedback?

Connemara Farmer

Farmer wrote: »

Did anybody get to this? Any feedback?

No I didn't go in the end, had a few jobs to do on the farm and it was a fine evening.

Connemara Farmer

It will be interesting to see what the actual number of commonage applications for GLAS Tranche 1 will be after the deadline.

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/minister-coveney-is-continuing-to-gloss-over-over-challenges-facing-glas/

MIKEKC

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

It will be interesting to see what the actual number of commonage applications for GLAS Tranche 1 will be after the deadline.

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/minister-coveney-is-continuing-to-gloss-over-over-challenges-facing-glas/

Looks like it will be very low, people seem to be pulling out by the day

Connemara Farmer

MIKEKC wrote: »

Looks like it will be very low, people seem to be pulling out by the day

I can hear the excuses already ".....generous scheme.... money from Europe.... farmers didn't want...." :pac:

Pity the reality is "...barriers to entry.... unnecessary complications.... departmental foot dragging...."

That so many "sure bet" tier one farmers may not join........ There will be people interested in those stats, if it comes to pass.

Username John

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

I can hear the excuses already ".....generous scheme.... money from Europe.... farmers didn't want...." :pac:

Pity the reality is "...barriers to entry.... unnecessary complications.... departmental foot dragging...."

That so many "sure bet" tier one farmers may not join........ There will be people interested in those stats, if it comes to pass.

I wonder when (if) the stats will be communicated? I wonder will it be after the scheme re-opens again in Sept

Connemara Farmer

Username John wrote: »

I wonder when (if) the stats will be communicated? I wonder will it be after the scheme re-opens again in Sept

After the election if they could manage it I'm sure. I reckon a PQ would be the quickest method.

Bodacious

no scheme for me as a new entrant in 2013, then 2014 and now 2015... lack of knowledge transfer between NPWS and Dept of Ag.. main chough areas seem to be cork/Kerry, Donegal and bits of clare.. so despite confirmation and emails from my local NPWS ranger .. they weren't on data handed electronically to dept of agriculture to which mapping of areas are produced so just before deadline im told .."sorry!"


JOKE

Connemara Farmer

Bodacious wrote: »

no scheme for me as a new entrant in 2013, then 2014 and now 2015... lack of knowledge transfer between NPWS and Dept of Ag.. main chough areas seem to be cork/Kerry, Donegal and bits of clare.. so despite confirmation and emails from my local NPWS ranger .. they weren't on data handed electronically to dept of agriculture to which mapping of areas are produced so just before deadline im told .."sorry!"


JOKE

Yup, that's what we were always told, if birds weren't mapped according to the depts computer, tough titty. It is an absolute joke particularly when NPWS already know of them.

Farmer

So the European auditors must be too busy out measuring around bushes to notice that this money is probably being spent protecting the wrong birds in the wrong areas...but then I suppose much of GLAS is the same..fine one bunch of lads for having blackthorn in a corner and pay another bunch ten times more to plant a bit....get penalized for having a pond while across the water, people get extra money to dig out a pond as part of a frog / toad habitat scheme!!!

Whatever about the birds, the donkey is safe for another while yet!!

Edit: Apologies to the real donkey for any offence caused

Bodacious

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

Yup, that's what we were always told, if birds weren't mapped according to the depts computer, tough titty. It is an absolute joke particularly when NPWS already know of them.

no communication within NPWS at all and none between 2 government bodies. They wouldn't be long getting in touch with each other if I was doing something wrong ;-) got that email bout 15.30, then came home and was moving electric fence for cows and what was causing a racket in amongst my calves but a pair of fine Choughs.. having a feeding frenzy were cattle had grazed down the grass to expose bare soil.

Birdnuts

Bodacious wrote: »

no communication within NPWS at all and none between 2 government bodies. They wouldn't be long getting in touch with each other if I was doing something wrong ;-) got that email bout 15.30, then came home and was moving electric fence for cows and what was causing a racket in amongst my calves but a pair of fine Choughs.. having a feeding frenzy were cattle had grazed down the grass to expose bare soil.

I get a couple of Choughs on my place in North Mayo during the winter and they breed across the bay. I asked the local NPWS ranger lady about some of the issues you've raised here and she said they have huge problems getting any satisfaction from the Dept of Agriculture in relation to co-operation or joined up thinking when it comes to implementing sensible policies on farm schemes, designated lands etc. Really I think it would be better if the NPWS had sole control of such monies/plans and cut out the bigger Dept alltogether who appear to have neither the interest or expertise in doing what is needed in this area.

Bodacious

Birdnuts wrote: »

I get a couple of Choughs on my place in North Mayo during the winter and they breed across the bay. I asked the local NPWS ranger lady about some of the issues you've raised here and she said they have huge problems getting any satisfaction from the Dept of Agriculture in relation to co-operation or joined up thinking when it comes to implementing sensible policies on farm schemes, designated lands etc. Really I think it would be better if the NPWS had sole control of such monies and cut out the bigger Dept alltogether who appear to have neither the interest or expertise in doing what is needed in this area.

only 12 breeding pairs in whole of Co. Galway. I could easily take the money put the whole damn lot into Traditional hay meadows for the next five years and sell the hay/graze all other plots instead but would not suit the chough as they need a short sward and access to the soil.. they also benefit from the cows being outwintered.


NPWS/Dept of Ag have failed to protect this bird's habitat IMO and promote biodiversity and sustainable agicultural practices

Birdnuts

Bodacious wrote: »

only 12 breeding pairs in whole of Co. Galway. I could easily take the money put the whole damn lot into Traditional hay meadows for the next five years and sell the hay/graze all other plots instead but would not suit the chough as they need a short sward and access to the soil.. they also benefit from the cows being outwintered.


NPWS/Dept of Ag have failed to protect this bird's habitat IMO and promote biodiversity and sustainable agicultural practices

Oh theres no doubt the state has failed badly in this - especially when you consider the amount of EU money they got over the years to support such things. Never understood why the Dept didn't just copy the highly successful Countryside Stewardship Scheme in the UK which brought back the likes of Corncrake, Citril Bunting etc. from the dead over the last 20 years or so

djmc

It seems to me they have absolutely no interest in protection of rare birds and animals or small family farms in this country this is clear from the amount of money taken from reps disadvantaged area payments npws hen harrier scheme etc. While pushing agribusiness and increased production with tams 2 its easy see where the rdp money is going.
Any complaints about this to our politations seems to be falling on deaf ears bar a few in opposition.

Bodacious

djmc wrote: »

It seems to me they have absolutely no interest in protection of rare birds and animals or small family farms in this country this is clear from the amount of money taken from reps disadvantaged area payments npws hen harrier scheme etc. While pushing agribusiness and increased production with tams 2 its easy see where the rdp money is going.
Any complaints about this to our politations seems to be falling on deaf ears bar a few in opposition.

Well I'm going to be writing to Coveney anyway.. Young farmer incentives my arse

Farmer

Bodacious wrote: »

Well I'm going to be writing to Coveney anyway.. Young farmer incentives my arse

Do you think you could get it raised as a Dáil question to him by a local TD? That way it goes on public record and is not as easy for him to rhyme off the standard answer that you know you're going to get

Capercaillie

Bodacious wrote: »

only 12 breeding pairs in whole of Co. Galway. I could easily take the money put the whole damn lot into Traditional hay meadows for the next five years and sell the hay/graze all other plots instead but would not suit the chough as they need a short sward and access to the soil.. they also benefit from the cows being outwintered.


NPWS/Dept of Ag have failed to protect this bird's habitat IMO and promote biodiversity and sustainable agicultural practices

I believe that the DAFM/IFA want species like Hen Harrier/Corncrake/Twite/Breeding waders extinct. Once they are gone the restrictions which presently are in place will be lifted. No SPA for Corncrake or Hen Harrier which will pave the way for increased production intensification.

patjack

Bodacious wrote: »

Well I'm going to be writing to Coveney anyway.. Young farmer incentives my arse

I have written to Coveney in the past, would you surprised to hear that I didn't get any response from his office!!!!

I have written to previous Ministers for Agriculture and have always got a response from their office.

It's common courtesy, whether they are writing back with good or bad news, they should write back.

Birdnuts

Capercaillie wrote: »

I believe that the DAFM/IFA want species like Hen Harrier/Corncrake/Twite/Breeding waders extinct. Once they are gone the restrictions which presently are in place will be lifted. No SPA for Corncrake or Hen Harrier which will pave the way for increased production intensification.

In reality it would be rather more complicated than that. The EU would take action against the state for failing to secure these species and their habitats. With heavy fines likely until their satifactory status is restored. In addition since the economics of increased production in many of these "marginal" areas are rather dubious given the scrappage of headage schmemes etc. and the ongoing factory price pressures - More likely many of these marginals areas will be either be abandoned or go into forestry - though the latter would depend on EU grant aid which after ECJ court cases over failure to maintain these species, would be rather unlikely. Teagasc had a map of farm incomes on their site a while ago which showed little difference in farm incomes in most cases between designated and adjacent non-designated areas in marginal areas. Around my place in the West there is already land abandonment taking place and most of it is outside designated areas.

Birdnuts

patjack wrote: »

I have written to Coveney in the past, would you surprised to hear that I didn't get any response from his office!!!!

I have written to previous Ministers for Agriculture and have always got a response from their office.

It's common courtesy, whether they are writing back with good or bad news, they should write back.

When you look at Coveny's background and actions to date, one can only come to one conclusion about his attitude to farmers in marginal areas. I think it will take someone with a completly different set of principles before things change for the better in the Dept. Certainly farmers in these areas need to sound out all political parties on these matters in the run-up to the next election

Capercaillie

Birdnuts wrote: »

Since the economics of increased production from many of these "marginal" areas is rather dubious given the scrappage of headage schmemes etc. and the ongoign factory price pressures - More likely many of these marginals areas will be either be abandoned or go into forestry - though the latter would depend on EU grant aid which after ECJ court cases over failure to maintain these species, would be rather unlikely. Teagasc had a map of farm incomes on their site a while ago which showed little difference in farm incomes in most cases between designated and adjacent non-designated areas in marginal areas. Around my place there is already land abandonment taking place and most of it is outside designated areas.

Birds Directive and the Habitats Directive is under review at the moment. If this piece of vital legislation goes you can see all SPA/SAC designations go in Ireland. Just look at the example of the NHA raised bogs. Due to pressure from turf cutters a whole raft of NHA's were de-designated. They couldn't de-designate the SAC's due to it being European legislation. This hasn't made them enfore the legislation though sadly.

Birdnuts

Capercaillie wrote: »

Birds Directive and the Habitats Directive is under review at the moment. If this piece of vital legislation goes you can see all SPA/SAC designations go in Ireland. Just look at the example of the NHA raised bogs. Due to pressure from turf cutters a whole raft of NHA's were de-designated. They couldn't de-designate the SAC's due to it being European legislation. This hasn't made them enfore the legislation though sadly.

I'm aware of that review or "fitness check". These are a regular feature of all EU legislation over the years and one can speculate all day as to its outcome but I doubt they will simply scrap whole directives given how embedded they are in other EU legislation and the current blow back from all around Europe on the matter in recent weeks. As for turf cutting, thats a separate non-farming issue and I don't think this thread should go off - topic arguing about it. NHA's are of a lesser standing than SAC's,SPA's in any case - and thats just a fact of life for good or for bad.

Bodacious

Birdnuts wrote: »

I'm aware of that review or "fitness check". These are a regular feature of all EU legislation over the years and one can speculate all day as to its outcome but I doubt they will simply scrap whole directives given how embedded they are in other EU legislation and the current blow back from all around Europe on the matter in recent weeks. As for turf cutting, thats a separate non-farming issue and I don't think this thread should go off - topic arguing about it. NHA's are of a lesser standing than SAC's,SPA's in any case - and thats just a fact of life for good or for bad.

I got an email back from the NPWS man that sent data across to dept of agriculture on bird species .. Pitiful response , blaming everyone but himself .. They have failed miserably to preserve the existence / recovery of this rare bird that they have been entrusted with the responsibility to protect and cost me 5k in the process

I wonder if I took 5k out of his wages would he feel like I feel at this minute

ulleJ1

I have low lying land but I also have 50 acres of mountain land,
The department came out and inspected it (50 acres of mountain land ) last feb 2015 when I had the sheep taken off it pre lambing,
They deemed it eligible for the year of 2014 due to no fences and lack of farming activity,
I keep the same sheep on it every year , they know there area and keep to it eliminating the need for fences, it is surrounded by commonage but it is not commonage itself.....
I have since appealed there decision sending in my own report containing objective evidence of farming activity during 2014-
this objective evidence includes letter from local vet stating he treated animals on it, letter from dead animal removal service stating they took dead animals off it during 2014 and a letter from a shearer stating he clipped sheep on it during 2014, I also have photos of old sheep dung on it proving evidence of livestock grazing on it during 2014....
If not over turned I would be set to pay back almost 10K in DAS payment and entitlements and as this is the reference year my livelihood is at stake ....

Do you think the department are likely to over turn it based on this evidence?

If not I will have to take legal action , my live is at stake here ...
This is very stressful for me and its all because an inspector wants to look good in his office job to keep his supervisor happy...
What do ye think of this situation?

Connemara Farmer

ulleJ1 wrote: »

I have low lying land but I also have 50 acres of mountain land,
The department came out and inspected it (50 acres of mountain land ) last feb 2015 when I had the sheep taken off it pre lambing,
They deemed it eligible for the year of 2014 due to no fences and lack of farming activity,
I keep the same sheep on it every year , they know there area and keep to it eliminating the need for fences, it is surrounded by commonage but it is not commonage itself.....
I have since appealed there decision sending in my own report containing objective evidence of farming activity during 2014-
this objective evidence includes letter from local vet stating he treated animals on it, letter from dead animal removal service stating they took dead animals off it during 2014 and a letter from a shearer stating he clipped sheep on it during 2014, I also have photos of old sheep dung on it proving evidence of livestock grazing on it during 2014....
If not over turned I would be set to pay back almost 10K in DAS payment and entitlements and as this is the reference year my livelihood is at stake ....

Do you think the department are likely to over turn it based on this evidence?

If not I will have to take legal action , my live is at stake here ...
This is very stressful for me and its all because an inspector wants to look good in his office job to keep his supervisor happy...
What do ye think of this situation?

PM sent

Farmer Pudsey

ulleJ1 wrote: »

I have low lying land but I also have 50 acres of mountain land,
The department came out and inspected it (50 acres of mountain land ) last feb 2015 when I had the sheep taken off it pre lambing,
They deemed it eligible for the year of 2014 due to no fences and lack of farming activity,
I keep the same sheep on it every year , they know there area and keep to it eliminating the need for fences, it is surrounded by commonage but it is not commonage itself.....
I have since appealed there decision sending in my own report containing objective evidence of farming activity during 2014-
this objective evidence includes letter from local vet stating he treated animals on it, letter from dead animal removal service stating they took dead animals off it during 2014 and a letter from a shearer stating he clipped sheep on it during 2014, I also have photos of old sheep dung on it proving evidence of livestock grazing on it during 2014....
If not over turned I would be set to pay back almost 10K in DAS payment and entitlements and as this is the reference year my livelihood is at stake ....

Do you think the department are likely to over turn it based on this evidence?

If not I will have to take legal action , my live is at stake here ...
This is very stressful for me and its all because an inspector wants to look good in his office job to keep his supervisor happy...
What do ye think of this situation?

In this weeks farmers journal an intresting article about TAMS 1. Sheep fencing is not included due to poor take up in a previous grant scheme. Lots of applications however few did the fencing. According to the journal one of the reasons for the poor take up was some councils required planing where there was previously no fences.:eek:

djmc

Does anyone know the timeline for appeals I have appealed a decision 6 months ago and have heard nothing since

Farmer

in reply to djmc..

I appealed one in Dec 2013, a man walked the land about a month ago but I have heard nothing yet, I think it's still being digitized. I am now sending in my second SFP application (2014 and 2015) with inaccurate mapping while waiting for their appeal process to provide a map that I won't be penalized on!

That was in the glut of the 10,000 eligibility appeals though, I expect they should be catching up now.

ganmo

Glas wouldn't allow us some of our stone walls, because the maps have our boundary inside the wall...computer says no

Connemara Farmer

Some news may interest some here on @ConnemaraFarmer (that's me) on Twitter.

Correct info posted now :rolleyes:

djmc

I joined twitter just to see the news curiosity killed the cat.☺
On another note anyone with hen harrier spa might be interested to see the npws have a new map online showing every type field in your farm and what is growing on it at the time of the survey.
http://www.npws.ie/news/hen-harrier-spa-habitat-map-viewer-published

Connemara Farmer

djmc wrote: »

I joined twitter just to see the news curiosity killed the cat.

Keep an eye on it, Some interesting stuff being talked about recently.

Count Mondego

ganmo wrote: »

Glas wouldn't allow us some of our stone walls, because the maps have our boundary inside the wall...computer says no

Balls. You'd only be getting half rate from them unless it was the road.

ulleJ1

Does anyone know the answer to this.....

There was a commonage for sale - it had three individual shares, I bought the three shares in three separate lots so I now own it in full....

My question is - is this still commonage now that I own it in full or does the commonage title now go from it???

Does anyone know of commonage that has only one shareholder?

No one else has a right to it now

Maidhci

If you bought out the individual commonage rights, you own it outright, therefore, I would imagine it is not commonage any longer. Effectively, there are no owners-in-common any longer as you are the sole owner.

ulleJ1

Sorry can I adjust my last statement.......

There are numerous people with turbery rights to this land though.... would that uphold the commonage title I wonder?

Basically it was commonage but now has one owner but I need it to uphold its commonage title for department purposes

Maidhci

ulleJ1 wrote: »

Sorry can I adjust my last statement.......

There are numerous people with turbery rights to this land though.... would that uphold the commonage title I wonder?

Basically it was commonage but now has one owner but I need it to uphold its commonage title for department purposes

That is a different scenario to the question originally posted - you should check through the T&Cs of the particular scheme to which your question relates.

Connemara Farmer

Farmers in the Slieve Aughtys onto phase two of their fight. I've met some of these farmers and wish them the best of luck, they're 100% owed that money. Just look at the Depts faith in their own inspections from the news report, yet still bring farmers to the steps of a court inflicting that level of stress and worry.

http://connachttribune.ie/aughty-farmers-look-for-cash-back-532/

Farmer

IRISH NATURA & HILL FARMERS ASSOCIATION (INHFA)
Cavan / Leitrim Launch:An important public meeting for all farmers will be held by the Irish Natura & Hill Farmers Association (INHFA), in Glangevlin Hall, on Wednesday 3rd of June at 9pm. Topics will include: Beef Geonomics, GLAS, Land Eligibility, Young Farmers Schemes, as well as a Q & A Session.

Connemara Farmer

I see Peter Young has got a bit carried away with his near weekly dig at "upland farmers" and is losing concentration.

200ha x €150 is €30k, not €300k.

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story eh Pravda.

Connemara Farmer

Also......... he ranted on

Given as a reason to why so few commonage farmers applied for GLAS, on page 14 (Peter Young again) states:

"No sheep
The other major issue was than many commonage farmers have no sheep. To go into GLAS you have to commit to a minimum number of sheep"



This is also incorrect, I know cattle only commonage farmers who have applied for GLAS. You do not need sheep.

ganmo

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/glas-in-numbers-90000-bird-boxes-and-1300km-of-hedgerows/

so 27k farmers signed up, how can the minister be happy with that?

Capercaillie

ganmo wrote: »

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/glas-in-numbers-90000-bird-boxes-and-1300km-of-hedgerows/

so 27k farmers signed up, how can the minister be happy with that?

180,000ha of permanent pasture will be conserved
• 8,000km of water courses will be protected,
• 40,000ha of endangered bird habitat will be brought under sustainable management
• 50,000ha of other Natura habitat will be protected
• 1,300km of new hedgerows will be planted
• 2,000 new groves of native trees will be established
• 1,000 new orchards of traditional Irish varieties will be planted
• 6,000km of stone walls will be protected
• 6,000 new habitats will be created for threatened solitary bee species
• 90,000 bird boxes and 80,000 bat boxes will be erected
• 2,700 commonages will be brought under new Commonage Management Plans
• 3,000 archaeological monuments will be protected
• 8,000ha of wild bird cover will be planted, providing up to 12,000 tonnes of seed for wild birds.

As for endangered bird habitat. Most farmers in my area SPA are not entering the Twite scheme because it doesn't pay them. 50,000ha Natura sites protected is a lie. Most Upland Natura sites have been torched this Spring and for example the Harrier GLAS plan is basically worthless to Hen Harrier (too watered down to have any benefit to Harriers).
Some joke!

Farmer

....and 35,000 km of spin has been generated.

djmc

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/farmers-raise-e70000-to-challenge-department-on-land-eligibility/

I wonder how this will play out.
I doubt if they could win in an Irish court but if it went to a European Court and was won there it could be a game changer.
It shows how these farmers are probably more dependent on payments than anywhere else
The whole food price issue needs to be tackled as at the moment probably 80% of beef and sheep farmers would be uneconomical without direct payments and 99.9%
If you are talking about marginal hill farms in the west of Ireland.
I have seen a few trying things like an open working farm or adopt a sheep etc to try and support their incomes.

ganmo

Anyone been out burning?

Capercaillie

Agriculture Committee Launch Report on Hen Harrier Conservation Issues and CONFIRMS Department of Agriculture (DAFM) in last RDP round (2007-2013) reallocated €430million of funds specifically for farmers with land designated as Natura 2000 to other schemes.
Page 10 "DAFM said the re-allocation was due to lack of demand from the SPA and SAC farmers: but no measure had been put in place: no scheme created to ensure the funds were channelled into SACs and SPAs"
So, DAFM purposefully drew down money from EU specifically for farmers in Natura 2000. Decided (in co-operation with the Irish Farmers Association) not to provide a way for farmers to get access to it, then...considered themselves justified in purposefully depriving these farmers in Natura 2000 the funding they were entitled too, and moved the money to other farm schemes - knowingly undermining farmers livelihoods and the governments legal obligation to maintain habitats and species protected by EU legislation. Add to this situation DAFM's purposeful decision then to offer lucrative forest grants and premiums; DAFM have intentionally created and perpetuated a socio-economic and conservation crisis in rural upland Ireland. All this against a backdrop of continued decline of our Hen Harrier, Curlew, Red Grouse, Dunlin, Golden Plover and Merlin.

The report can be found at the top of the page at the following address - http://www.oireachtas.ie/…/agriculturefoodandthema…/reports/