Commonage/hill farmers issues thread, GLAS, GAEC, etc etc

Birdnuts

Capercaille wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/345679678896374/photos/pcb.564893373641669/564890456975294/?type=1&theatre
DAFM diverted over €400million of EU financial support specifically for farmers in Natura 2000 sites in last RDP!!

That was the point I was making and why I'm glad affected farmers are now bringing their case directly to Europe.

Connemara Farmer

My next video will feature Luke "Ming" Flanagan and topically he had something to say about BOPs and farmers

Again sorry for the quality, camera phone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDs_DMPnUKs

Capercaille

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

That is absolutely true.

This is why I am against an "environmental" scheme. I am in favour of a scheme dedicated to Natura, Designated type land. That way, the funding the Commission want to go to that land can't be diverted (I'd not use as polite a word) by vested interests "broadening" out "environmental" schemes.

The environmental schemes/GLAS must actually help threatened species/habitats and not be a payment to farmers for doing feck all.

Connemara Farmer

Capercaille wrote: »

The environmental schemes/GLAS must actually help threatened species/habitats and not be a payment to farmers for doing feck all.

I would not describe the conditions imposed on my land as "feck all". It devalues my asset, and limits my business.

Birdnuts

Capercaille wrote: »

The environmental schemes/GLAS must actually help threatened species/habitats and not be a payment to farmers for doing feck all.

Its not the farmers fault if the schemes are not properly targetted or implemented. And that is the current state of play which benefits nobody.

Connemara Farmer

Birdnuts wrote: »

Its not the farmers fault if the schemes are not properly targetted or implemented. And that is the current state of play which benefits nobody.

Precisely. As we have found out we have SFA input listened to by those who make the decisions. This past two and a half years this has been going on, not since yesterday. Submission after submission has been sidelined and ignored.

Capercaille

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

Precisely. As we have found out we have SFA input listened to by those who make the decisions. This past two and a half years this has been going on, not since yesterday. Submission after submission has been sidelined and ignored.

Are people lobbying the IFA to get payments transferred from people with huge SFP to smaller farmers? I do work for a farmer that is on 400,000 SFP a year.

supersean1999

Capercaille wrote: »

The environmental schemes/GLAS must actually help threatened species/habitats and not be a payment to farmers for doing feck all.

What an ignorant comment.

Connemara Farmer

Capercaille wrote: »

Are people lobbying the IFA to get payments transferred from people with huge SFP to smaller farmers? I do work for a farmer that is on 400,000 SFP a year.

Well mine is €1,800 so I think you're getting thick with the wrong guy?

Capercaille

supersean1999 wrote: »

What an ignorant comment.

Elaborate. REPS was a failure. It was more an income source than delivering any worthwhile environmental gains.

Capercaille

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

Well mine is €1,800 so I think you're getting thick with the wrong guy?

I ain't getting thick with anybody.

Birdnuts

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

Precisely. As we have found out we have SFA input listened to by those who make the decisions. This past two and a half years this has been going on, not since yesterday. Submission after submission has been sidelined and ignored.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I can't understand why the Dept haven't done some research in the area and implemented schemes like they have in similar rural areas in the UK which have been very succesfull in terms of their conservation outcomes and farmer satisfaction. IMO there needs to a serious cleanout in the Dept of deadwood and their replacement with people with the required expertise.

Birdnuts

Capercaille wrote: »

Are people lobbying the IFA to get payments transferred from people with huge SFP to smaller farmers? I do work for a farmer that is on 400,000 SFP a year.

If you've been following this topic here you will know that this is preceisly what Con and others have been trying to do. Hence the reason why hill farmers are trying to take their case directly to Europe

Connemara Farmer

Birdnuts wrote: »

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I can't understand why the Dept haven't done some research in the area and implemented schemes like they have in similar rural areas in the UK which have been very succesfull in terms of their conservation outcomes and farmer satisfaction. IMO there needs to a serious cleanout in the Dept of deadwood and their replacement with people with the required expertise.

Inability to implement schemes is my information, fit for purpose? I think not.

By the by, as I'm usually quite hard on "the Department", there are quite a significant number of good people in there, just unfortunately not enough in the right places as yet.

Birdnuts

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

By the by, as I'm usually quite hard on "the Department", there are quite a significant number of good people in there, just unfortunately not enough in the right places as yet.

Oh I don't doubt that. No doubt its the usual thing in this country of the people who want to do the right thing getting sidelined when it doesn't fit into certain powerfull vested interests agendas.

Connemara Farmer

Is that Ming video working OK? Had issues uploading it.

Birdnuts

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

Is that Ming video working OK? Had issues uploading it.

Yep

Capercaille

Birdnuts wrote: »

If you've been following this topic here you will know that this is preceisly what Con and others have been trying to do. Hence the reason why hill farmers are trying to take their case directly to Europe

I asked the question. If I knew the answer I would have not bothered asking it.

Tokyo

Capercaille wrote: »

I asked the question. If I knew the answer I would have not bothered asking it.

Mod Note:
It's a discussion thread. If you can't post within the spirit of the thread, consider taking a step back for a bit.

djmc

Here's my take on it I'm a dairy farmer and know very little about sheep except what I learned in at collage 20 years ago
But I am farming on a hill and half of it is in a SAC for the hen harrier
I believe now I was mislead buy npws when they were designating the area as SAC with promise of good grants and that it would not impact my farm practice
It does and it is almost impossable to adhere to rules of sac and sfp. For example I can't plough spray reseed dig or drain any land in sac
All you can do to control rushes is top them and on a wet year on the side of a mountain would be near suicide then they would need to be topped four times a year
Ragwort would have to be pulled fine if you have 5 acres and all day to do it but if there is 50 acres and you can't spray it how are you supposed to maintain good agricultural practice.
Land has fallen form 15000 an acre to last year I saw some sold near me for less than 300 an acre more didn't even get a bid because you might as well buy land on the moon its good for nothing unless you are a hen harrier.
Don't get me wrong l love wildlife and always have but can see why people are getting pissed off with the hole thing.
To say farmer shouldn't get money for nothing
I work 7 days a week 365 days a year had my farm devalued and the half in SAC get worse because of restrictions on spraying seseeding etc. and to date have not got one cent for having it degesnated and I probably have it easy compared to the sheep farmers on the side of the Kerry mountains rounding up stock over 1000 acres with a dog.

Connemara Farmer

djmc wrote: »

I believe now I was mislead buy npws when they were designating the area as SAC with promise of good grants and that it would not impact my farm practice

A farmer recalled how when the SAC's were introduced here they were told at a meeting they'd be like "double Goyas" (the expensive paintings), not just one Goya, but double!

Connemara Farmer

One of Colm O'Donnells pieces.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syf31dDNcds

Birdnuts

djmc wrote: »

I believe now I was mislead buy npws when they were designating the area as SAC with promise of good grants and that it would not impact my farm practice
year
.

I think it was the Dept of Agriculture who mislead everyone including the NPWS. At the time the expectation was that Pillar 2 monies would go to farmers like yourself at an enhanced rate over non-designated farmers. Thats what the EU commission had signed off on. However as outlined in this thread, these monies were diverted elsewhere. That was entirely the doing of the Dept and had nothing to do with NPWS,EU or anyone else. Thats why I think it is a wise move to bring this issue direct to Brussels.

Connemara Farmer

Birdnuts wrote: »

That was entirely the doing of the Dept and had nothing to do with NPWS,EU or anyone else.

Oh, oh, oh I bet I could think of another crowd that had a big hand in it.

Birdnuts

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

Oh, oh, oh I bet I could think of another crowd that had a big hand in it.

Now Now!!:D;)

Connemara Farmer

Birdnuts wrote: »

Now Now!!:D;)

You know I'm right :cool:

ihatewinter

djmc wrote: »

Here's my take on it I'm a dairy farmer and know very little about sheep except what I learned in at collage 20 years ago
But I am farming on a hill and half of it is in a SAC for the hen harrier
I believe now I was mislead buy npws when they were designating the area as SAC with promise of good grants and that it would not impact my farm practice
It does and it is almost impossable to adhere to rules of sac and sfp. For example I can't plough spray reseed dig or drain any land in sac
All you can do to control rushes is top them and on a wet year on the side of a mountain would be near suicide then they would need to be topped four times a year
Ragwort would have to be pulled fine if you have 5 acres and all day to do it but if there is 50 acres and you can't spray it how are you supposed to maintain good agricultural practice.
Land has fallen form 15000 an acre to last year I saw some sold near me for less than 300 an acre more didn't even get a bid because you might as well buy land on the moon its good for nothing unless you are a hen harrier.
Don't get me wrong l love wildlife and always have but can see why people are getting pissed off with the hole thing.
To say farmer shouldn't get money for nothing
I work 7 days a week 365 days a year had my farm devalued and the half in SAC get worse because of restrictions on spraying seseeding etc. and to date have not got one cent for having it degesnated and I probably have it easy compared to the sheep farmers on the side of the Kerry mountains rounding up stock over 1000 acres with a dog.

The likes of the NPWS and the Department of Agriculture need to actually visit hill farms and see how restrictions and designations impact productivity and finances. Sure none of the officials have a clue what it is like to farm on marginal land. Their motto, give farmers an ould environmental scheme, they'll be happy and so will Brussels. Job done !!!!!!! No concept or thought into what constraints will do to management or the impact to the environment or habitats. Just have to look at the destocking in the 90's and the state of many commonage now, undergrazed and full of gorse, bracken and heather. Can't burn so it, so there's another restriction to try to increase the level of productivity

Even Teagasc spout information which is only suited to good quality lowland enterprises not commonage or wet land.

coolshannagh28

Birdnuts wrote: »

I think it was the Dept of Agriculture who mislead everyone including the NPWS. At the time the expectation was that Pillar 2 monies would go to farmers like yourself at an enhanced rate over non-designated farmers. Thats what the EU commission had signed off on. However as outlined in this thread, these monies were diverted elsewhere. That was entirely the doing of the Dept and had nothing to do with NPWS,EU or anyone else. Thats why I think it is a wise move to bring this issue direct to Brussels.

Sane applies to SFP the redistribution model Ireland came up with does not follow the spirit of what was agreed by the EU and there is a case to be made that we did not follow the letter of it either. Pillar 2 was the sop thrown to farmers to justify the imbalance and it has not come up to scratch either surprise surprise

Connemara Farmer

rangler1 wrote: »

Not my job, but my map has been reduced because of a wreck of a shed and a roadway, a neighbours because of rushes, but I've always been conservative in my measurements so I'm not penalised, Incidentally my roadway grows more grass than probably a lot of land in the country.

Ring Alan O'Brien in Portlaoise about the roadway, I am almost sure they said at a clinic in either Athenry or Clifden that the grassy part is eligible. But, that will likely trigger a visual inspection.

Connemara Farmer

I see we got a mention on front page of Farming Indo tomorrow morning, hope it's a good article, was an excellent meeting.

jjf1974

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

I see we got a mention on front page of Farming Indo tomorrow morning, hope it's a good article, was an excellent meeting.

I wonder what spin the farmers journal/I.f.a will put on it if they even bother to mention it at all.

Connemara Farmer

jjf1974 wrote: »

I wonder what spin the farmers journal/I.f.a will put on it if they even bother to mention it at all.

Unlikely to mention would be my guess, but who knows. I am not bothered either way.

jjf1974

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

Unlikely to mention would be my guess, but who knows. I am not bothered either way.

True and yet if the famous Eddie Downey ties 2 shopping trollies together outside a supermarket they picture it on the front page and get George Lee to show it on the six-one news.

Connemara Farmer

jjf1974 wrote: »

True and yet if the famous Eddie Downey ties 2 shopping trollies together outside a supermarket they picture it on the front page and get George Lee to show it on the six-one news.

Duncan Stewart would be the man for the job, any farming programme I remember him doing he did a good in depth job of it. George I think is a kg/ltr kinda guy.

Connemara Farmer

Agriland article today:

http://www.agriland.ie/news/commonage-farmers-meeting/

Connemara Farmer

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=21000:commonage-farmers-happy-after-commission-meeting&catid=23:news&Itemid=46

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=20851:farmers-opposed-to-disruption-of-sea2summit-ifa&catid=23:news&Itemid=46

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=21039:ifa-president-told-to-get-up-off-his-backside&catid=23:news&Itemid=46

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=21038:time-coveney-started-to-listen-and-consult-with-farmers&catid=23:news&Itemid=46

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=21047:farmers-vent-fury-at-minister-for-spin-coveney-&catid=23:news&Itemid=46

Haven't quite been infected with the renewed sense of pride in IFA myself, I must've been standing behind a door when they were handing out them tablets, calling Nurse Ratchet........

Connemara Farmer

There is, what I call, a March for fairness being organised for Castlebar, on Friday December 5th. More details when I have them.

All are invited to participate.

Connemara Farmer

http://www.agriland.ie/news/hill-farmers-march-enda-kennys-castlebar-office/

supersean1999

any mention in the journals piece on glas about. 50% agreement on commonage.

Connemara Farmer

supersean1999 wrote: »

any mention in the journals piece on glas about. 50% agreement on commonage.

Lol, I was going to comment on it but got diverted to reading another document that was loitering with intent on the coffee table for ages.

Isn't it depicted as fierce simple to get €5k from GLAS if you're a commonage farmer? Just have 41 hectares and bang, money in the pocket. Money for jam! Commonage farmers are creaming it, raking it in, rolling in cash!

Pity it's not the case.

Round up 50% of farmers or land area, iron out all differences (farming, social, etc), draw up and pay for (how much? Who knows, there's no guidelines AFAIK) a master plan first. While doing that accept if that plan goes "wrong" it's completely the relevant farmers and planners fault.

Edited to add: Oh not to mention private planners (cos Teagasc not involved) are going through their client list and picking private land owners from commonage ones, so how will you get a planner in the first instance? Plus hiring an extra planner (on top of the - One if you're lucky as 50% of commonage farmers have more than one commonage and one planner is needed for each commonage - planner for the commonage) to do your individual plan which feeds into the master plan.

THEN you may APPLY to join GLAS.

But, consider this. Say you do get 50% of active farmers to jump through all that. Say you have a rogue farmer on that commonage, or next door, that not only has more tagged sheep than s/he should, but also illegal untagged sheep. That rogue farmer will eat the sh1t out of the place. What happens at your next inspection? Collective responsibility?

I have the same power over that farmer as I have over any farmer on here. Department denying their responsibility there.

That article is based on a 99 page document I received some time ago. There are two full pages in it on Choughs (or wading birds I forget) and ONE page on commonage with NO detail in it. If it wasn't serious it'd be hilarious.

Not to mention given that all of the above is completely up in the air, and absolutely NOT confirmed, why?

The Govt stocking rate in Pillar 1 of 1 ewe to 1.5 hectares on marginal land is against WTO rules, therefore unlikely to be accepted.

So, to draw down money from Pillar 2 (GLAS etc) one must take steps above and beyond what is required in Pillar 1. Now that Pillar 1 is in question, how can you have a Pillar 2 scheme?

The whole thing is in a ball. We have been saying for ages and ages, you do not draw up a scheme from the top down, it's unworkable.

I can see the thing having to be redrawn, we see the usual characters roaring for the scheme to be opened. God gave us all two ears and one mouth, if they'd used them in that proportion for the past 2.5 years none of this mess would have happened. But that's the pitfall one faces when one says one things but does another.

supersean1999

Well said. Its absolutely disgraceful. As for the piece in the journal. A joke . Proof read by the ifa and the dep of ag no doubt. Also. Did they report on a meeting with 1000 farmers in maam cross.

Connemara Farmer

supersean1999 wrote: »

Well said. Its absolutely disgraceful. As for the piece in the journal. A joke . Proof read by the ifa and the dep of ag no doubt. Also. Did they report on a meeting with 1000 farmers in maam cross.

Dunno, I just skimmed over it tbh. I don't expect much from IFJ and am rarely disappointed. Seriously lacking in journalistic freedom IMO.

Big piece on a farmer I know,Martin Joe Kerrigan, good farmer he is too.

ihatewinter

If a farmer has rights on 2 commonages, could they pick the biggest commonage (if over 41 hectares) to get full payment and forget about the other one.

Otherwise it would mean double the cost, compare to a large lowland farm with no hassle

Connemara Farmer

ihatewinter wrote: »

If a farmer has rights on 2 commonages, could they pick the biggest commonage (if over 41 hectares) to get full payment and forget about the other one.

Otherwise it would mean double the cost, compare to a large lowland farm with no hassle

Yes & no, but remember now, this has all gone up in the air again and more so with what I'm after hearing but more on that at another date so don't be counting chickens yet.

From what I know, they'd accept if you could make up 41HA from one commonage you could once you met the various unnecessary hoops.

However, you would have to give an undertaking that IF/WHEN your other commonage/s looked to go into GLAS you'd have to go in with them too.

So you could have a delayed expense for no extra €.

And you mean triple the cost, potentially. 1 planner for the master plan, potentially a second planner for the other commonage master plan, PLUS another planner for your individual farm plan which feeds into the master plan.

ihatewinter

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

And you mean triple the cost, potentially. 1 planner for the master plan, potentially a second planner for the other commonage master plan, PLUS another planner for your individual farm plan which feeds into the master plan.

Never thought of the farm plan, the way it's going at the moment with all the expenses and red tape the return for the farmer will be low. Plus majority of commonage farmers will be excluded from GLAS+ so planners will be the only ones benefiting

supersean1999

If u had 38- 39 say 40 ha of commanage on one hill. Would you not just claim than area and not bother with the lowland. Or another commonage. And just recieve 4750 apx without doing a plan for the lowland

Connemara Farmer

supersean1999 wrote: »

If u had 38- 39 say 40 ha of commanage on one hill. Would you not just claim than area and not bother with the lowland. Or another commonage. And just recieve 4750 apx without doing a plan for the lowland

It's not a full farm scheme, so you do not have to include the lowland. But, you still need a planner to feed into the master plan.

That said it may be possible to have the planner doing the master plan do your plan, or not, will depend on circumstances and individuals involved.

Connemara Farmer

The land eligibility issue that is quickly coming, affecting SFP, will be a LOT bigger an issue than GLAS ever has been for marginal/hill areas.

Connemara Farmer

Alan Matthews has an interesting Tweet on, uhm, Twitter.

The website of the Environment part of the Commission (I think I have that right, DG ENV anyway) is hosting the results based Agri-Environmental schemes.

I see that as progress, hopefully the monies ear marked for sensitive areas will be spent there!

Connemara Farmer

Some more details on the March.

December 5th, 12.30pm assembly @ McHale Park for a 1pm sharp start, ending up at Enda Kennys constituency office.