Commonage/hill farmers issues thread, GLAS, GAEC, etc etc

Farmer Pudsey

MIKEKC wrote: »

The reason a lot of young farmers have low entitlements is a lot of them had lazy fathers. Now they want to take money from those that worked hard for years
.

I think it a bit more complicated than that, thank you for you insightful and lenghty contribution.

MIKEKC

Yes a bit more complicated, but an important reason without doubt

djmc

MIKEKC wrote: »

The reason a lot of young farmers have low entitlements is a lot of them had lazy fathers. Now they want to take money from those that worked hard for years
.

Not sure what you mean by this
I will lose money under new cap because I had land rented and finished cattle and drew punches on stock during reference years and had good enough value entitlements
I work 365 days a year on my dairy farm alone but l still think the new system is fair even though I will loose a bit.
Farming in the west of Ireland is very challenging
You don't see many abandoning land in the golden vale because they can't make money at it.

Connemara Farmer

I wouldn't be getting too ahead of the game just yet now.

supersean1999

MIKEKC wrote: »

The reason a lot of young farmers have low entitlements is a lot of them had lazy fathers. Now they want to take money from those that worked hard for years
.

You might be the opposite. A lazy son with a hard working father. Sure its a cycle dont you see

MIKEKC

No I'm the hard working father

supersean1999

MIKEKC wrote: »

No I'm the hard working father

Well dont spoil them kids haha:D

MIKEKC

Close to pension,so someone going to get spoiled. A question while I'm here if a farmer rents a shed to a neighbour what form must he fill. No other cattle on farm

MayoAreMagic

MIKEKC wrote: »

The reason a lot of young farmers have low entitlements is a lot of them had lazy fathers. Now they want to take money from those that worked hard for years.

But surely a young farmer shouldn't get different treatment to another young farmer today because of what their father did or didn't do 10 years ago?

Also, worked hard for years, or worked the system? Probably a bit of both if we are honest about it.

MIKEKC

I agree it's hard on young farmers whose fathers didn't build up good payments,but worse still I must now suffer as well because these guys didn't build up payments

Farmer Pudsey

MIKEKC wrote: »

I agree it's hard on young farmers whose fathers didn't build up good payments,but worse still I must now suffer as well because these guys didn't build up payments

The issues with the SFP are various. It has not helped that the different Farm organisations want nothing to do with the rebalancing of it and have stuck to historical payments model.

The EU was favourable to front loading payments on the first 20-30 Ha and fixed greening payments which would have suited small to medium farmers. However there was a dong in the manger attitude by the farm organisations and the Dept. This is visible in the Pillar 2 funding where the department is not allocating it as it was intended

MIKEKC

Although it wouldn't suit me I can never understand how IFA convinced low payment holders to accept the present system

paddysdream

MIKEKC wrote: »

Although it wouldn't suit me I can never understand how IFA convinced low payment holders to accept the present system

Whats a low payment?
Do you mean on a per hectare/entitlement basis or overall payment amount?

MIKEKC

On a per hectare basis, if someone has a small amount of hectares they can't build up a large payment overall

paddysdream

MIKEKC wrote: »

On a per hectare basis, if someone has a small amount of hectares they can't build up a large payment overall

Irish average is about 250 or so.What would you call low?

MIKEKC

paddysdream wrote: »

Irish average is about 250 or so.What would you call low?

Anything below that is low, many poor souls on e150 or below

paddysdream

MIKEKC wrote: »

Anything below that is low, many poor souls on e150 or below

To be fair 200 per hectare is not that low esp. where the ground could never have carried the required amount of stock during the reference years no matter what type of farming was practiced.

To bring everyone up to 250 would entail bringing everyone over that down to 250 as well.
Despite what you read on here and in the papers,there are not that many with "massive "payments and very very few with amounts totally unrelated to what they are at today(2014).

Lots of pub talk with people about this subject.Look up the actual figures and you might be surprised.Despite everyone knowing lots of lads with 6 figure sums there were less than 250 in the entire country in the begining and now think its only 6 with in excess of 150k.
Average nationwide is 10k or so,thats including all the part timers,hard done by cases and the many millions who seem to have inherited or bought farms with miniscule entitlements.
Among full time farmers I would think the average would be from about 20k to 40k or so.They would be farming ,on average,maybe 2 to 3 times the average farm size of a little under 40 hectares.They would be in the 300 to 500 euro per hectare bracket in the main.

Anyways this is more of a CAP thing than a commonage/Glas thing.As regards the point of the tread,got a text from my adviser tonight saying that GLAS is due in Feb.Getting his spake in early for those finishing AEOS or Reps4 I would imagine.

Know its not what Con wants to hear but if the commonage issue is not resolved when Glas opens will it fill up with those who would/should have been lower down the ladder to enter ie the farmers in the non DA ground who were in Reps or Aeos?

Farmer Pudsey

Average farm size in Ireland in 2010 was 32.7 HA. Average SFP in Ireland was 272/HA and average SFP is about 9K. GLAS will not be open until it is approved by the EU Commission is my understanding. And it is the EU that has send back questions about the 50% rule. It has also questioned Irelands compensations of owners of SAC, Commonage and Natura land. I read somewhere a bit back(a few years ago) that the Commission also questioned why we had one of the lowest rate of designated lands in Europe.

If the EU fails to approve GLAS the department will not be opening it in February no matter how hard the IFA scream

supersean1999

MIKEKC wrote: »

Anything below that is low, many poor souls on e150 or below

A lot of the poor souls might have 100 ha

MIKEKC

supersean1999 wrote: »

A lot of the poor souls might have 100 ha

If they have 100 ha don't think they could be called poor souls, unless a lot of it is commonage most farms around here would be 30ha

Capercaille

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

It has also questioned Irelands compensations of owners of SAC, Commonage and Natura land. I read somewhere a bit back(a few years ago) that the Commission also questioned why we had one of the lowest rate of designated lands in Europe.

True. Also the Irish SAC/Natura2000/SPA sites are badly protected and there is widespread habitat damage been done to those sites.

Connemara Farmer

paddysdream wrote: »

Know its not what Con wants to hear but if the commonage issue is not resolved when Glas opens will it fill up with those who would/should have been lower down the ladder to enter ie the farmers in the non DA ground who were in Reps or Aeos?

Not much point in speculating. This week both the Taoiseach and Minister have been busy back peddling. They've both acknowledged publicly the problems we've been indicating for some time. We'll continue to tip away and see what happens.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Average farm size in Ireland in 2010 was 32.7 HA. Average SFP in Ireland was 272/HA and average SFP is about 9K. GLAS will not be open until it is approved by the EU Commission is my understanding. And it is the EU that has send back questions about the 50% rule. It has also questioned Irelands compensations of owners of SAC, Commonage and Natura land. I read somewhere a bit back(a few years ago) that the Commission also questioned why we had one of the lowest rate of designated lands in Europe.

If the EU fails to approve GLAS the department will not be opening it in February no matter how hard the IFA scream

The EU did indeed send back many interesting questions, coincidentally a lot of which were similar to the questions we'd highlighted. That was good to see.

If not all, then the vast bulk of all this BS could have been avoided. A lot of which were created by lobbying in the first place.

paddysdream

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

Not much point in speculating. This week both the Taoiseach and Minister have been busy back peddling. They've both acknowledged publicly the problems we've been indicating for some time. We'll continue to tip away and see what happens.



The EU did indeed send back many interesting questions, coincidentally a lot of which were similar to the questions we'd highlighted. That was good to see.

If not all, then the vast bulk of all this BS could have been avoided. A lot of which were created by lobbying in the first place.

Do you think Glas will open in the Spring ?
Well worthwhile speculating as if its anyway attractive ie return exceeds expenditure,then many drystock farmers will look at it ,esp. those finishing Reps 4.

Saw some of the specs and with a little tweaking and creative bookwork then would look at it myself.Max 5k would pay if spend was under 2k a year.
Depends I suppose on the uptake as I would be on the very lower end of eligible people apart from the 140 nitrate level.3k is an extra 30 lambs or so in sales with no cost incurred.

Connemara Farmer

paddysdream wrote: »

Do you think Glas will open in the Spring ?
Well worthwhile speculating as if its anyway attractive ie return exceeds expenditure,then many drystock farmers will look at it ,esp. those finishing Reps 4.

Saw some of the specs and with a little tweaking and creative bookwork then would look at it myself.Max 5k would pay if spend was under 2k a year.
Depends I suppose on the uptake as I would be on the very lower end of eligible people apart from the 140 nitrate level.3k is an extra 30 lambs or so in sales with no cost incurred.

I don't know. This "letter of comfort" is a new thing. Sort of makes me think of a young lad handing the headmaster an IOU for his tardy homework

Despite the comments in the Dail by the Minister and on radio by the Taoiseach, there's been no real new detail, besides admitting what the dog on the hill knew, that GLAS in relation to commonages is full of really big holes. It's a lot of the same thing dressed up in new clothes.

50% Collective agreement has turned into rather a farce for the dept. who continue to insist it's a requirement from the EU, despite the fact in the presence of two Irish MEP's and four Irish hill farmers the EU stated plainly that Collective Agreement is NOT a requirement. Turning it into a "guideline" that doesn't have to be met smacks of someones pet project.

Apparently now the dept. are fighting "someone" against Collective Agreement FOR the hill farmers. It can't be the EU, because they've said it's no problem to NOT have CA. So who are they rowing with?

Then there's still the ownership of (liability) and payment for these Commonage Management Plans, or whatever it is they're called this week.

So I don't know, we'll have to await developments. I know it's starting to become very hard work convincing farmers to wait, rather than act as some are getting impatient to do.

Farmer Pudsey

paddysdream wrote: »

Do you think Glas will open in the Spring ?
Well worthwhile speculating as if its anyway attractive ie return exceeds expenditure,then many drystock farmers will look at it ,esp. those finishing Reps 4.

Saw some of the specs and with a little tweaking and creative bookwork then would look at it myself.Max 5k would pay if spend was under 2k a year.
Depends I suppose on the uptake as I would be on the very lower end of eligible people apart from the 140 nitrate level.3k is an extra 30 lambs or so in sales with no cost incurred.

Yes GLAS will open some time in the spring however it may be a good bit different than what a lot of people expect. Reps4 was a reps scheme for intensive large farmers. GLAS may well turn out different. The Dept idea of GLAS was to limit money to Commages, Hen Harrier, Nautura and SAC land by limiting max amount and then an extar money to bring in extra 2K applicants had to jump through hoops that would be lost in extra spend.

Will be very hard to reach 5K unless you have a fairly substancial acreage. You will not reach any sort of sum with hedges and stone walls. Tillage farmers that have ground not suitable for tillage may find it easier to reach max than most small to medium sized livestock farmers.

ihatewinter

From the IFJ website

Three month payment for 2015 likely as Taoiseach moves to address commonage concerns.
The opening date for GLAS applications has been pushed back until late January or early February 2015. It had previously been hoped that the scheme would be open before the end of this month.

The latest planned date was confirmed by Minister Simon Coveney in reply to Éamon Ó Cuív in the Dáil last week.

“We will do everything we can to deliver an application process that allows farmers to apply on time, and planners to put plans in place on time,” Minister Coveney said.

He said the plans “should not be too complicated”, and that he wanted to accept 30,000 farmers into the scheme next year. €20m is budgeted for GLAS for 2015, “for a three-month payment”, he added.

This would indicate a 1 October start date for GLAS plans. A farmer drawing down the maximum €5,000 in a full year would get €1,250 for three months next year. An extra €416 would be drawn down for every extra month the scheme is open.

IFA’s Rural Development chairman Flor McCarthy stressed that the most important date of all is the commencement date of the scheme, from which date successful applicants will be paid.

Farmer Pudsey

ihatewinter wrote: »

From the IFJ website

Three month payment for 2015 likely as Taoiseach moves to address commonage concerns.
The opening date for GLAS applications has been pushed back until late January or early February 2015. It had previously been hoped that the scheme would be open before the end of this month.

The latest planned date was confirmed by Minister Simon Coveney in reply to Éamon Ó Cuív in the Dáil last week.

“We will do everything we can to deliver an application process that allows farmers to apply on time, and planners to put plans in place on time,” Minister Coveney said.

He said the plans “should not be too complicated”, and that he wanted to accept 30,000 farmers into the scheme next year. €20m is budgeted for GLAS for 2015, “for a three-month payment”, he added.

This would indicate a 1 October start date for GLAS plans. A farmer drawing down the maximum €5,000 in a full year would get €1,250 for three months next year. An extra €416 would be drawn down for every extra month the scheme is open.

IFA’s Rural Development chairman Flor McCarthy stressed that the most important date of all is the commencement date of the scheme, from which date successful applicants will be paid.

From these figures Simon expects average pay out to be 666 euro for 3 months or an average reps plan paying 2,700:eek:

Wsa this the reason to try to force 50% on commonages farmers. Would it have been too easy for them to get to 5K. As well as they have right of entry was this designed to prevent entry.

Birdnuts

ihatewinter wrote: »

From the IFJ website

Three month payment for 2015 likely as Taoiseach moves to address commonage concerns.
The opening date for GLAS applications has been pushed back until late January or early February 2015. It had previously been hoped that the scheme would be open before the end of this month.

The latest planned date was confirmed by Minister Simon Coveney in reply to Éamon Ó Cuív in the Dáil last week.

“We will do everything we can to deliver an application process that allows farmers to apply on time, and planners to put plans in place on time,” Minister Coveney said.

He said the plans “should not be too complicated”, and that he wanted to accept 30,000 farmers into the scheme next year. €20m is budgeted for GLAS for 2015, “for a three-month payment”, he added.

This would indicate a 1 October start date for GLAS plans. A farmer drawing down the maximum €5,000 in a full year would get €1,250 for three months next year. An extra €416 would be drawn down for every extra month the scheme is open.

IFA’s Rural Development chairman Flor McCarthy stressed that the most important date of all is the commencement date of the scheme, from which date successful applicants will be paid.

I suspect Simon and his merry men in the Dept are scrambling to shore up their tattered credibility on this whole affair and what we have now from the minister are sound bytes for Dail and Public consumption. Since the EU has not signed off on any of this, its all just speculation on this stage as to when and what form GLAS will be launched.

djmc

I would rather see no deal than a bad deal I would worry that this letter of comfort could just be kicking the can down the road closer to the next election when we would be showered with more election Promise's.

Connemara Farmer

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

From these figures Simon expects average pay out to be 666 euro for 3 months or an average reps plan paying 2,700:eek:

Wsa this the reason to try to force 50% on commonages farmers. Would it have been too easy for them to get to 5K. As well as they have right of entry was this designed to prevent entry.

Like they said in "All the Presidents men", follow the money.

Bodacious

so no Environmental scheme for new entrants for 2013 and then 2014 and now itll be all going well Oct 01st 2015 commencement.. is it me or will we have lost out in the guts of 3 years without a scheme?

Connemara Farmer

Some days I hear things going on behind the scenes and they make me laugh. Today was one, where are the photographers???????????/

Work for credit lads, don't be trying to confuse the issue

As Forrest Gump said, that's all I got to say about that.

Username John

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

Some days I hear things going on behind the scenes and they make me laugh. Today was one, where are the photographers???????????/

Work for credit lads, don't be trying to confuse the issue

As Forrest Gump said, that's all I got to say about that.

Eh?

supersean1999

Username John wrote: »

Eh?

Eh is right. Hahaha con might of hit the hot ones.

Connemara Farmer

Purposefully vague, Pudsey will have an understanding into what I mean, I think It's not important, just something that tickled me at the time.

Connemara Farmer

http://www.yourcommonage.ie/2015/01/the-hill-farmers-proposed.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Connemara Farmer

Good article from the ICSA in the FIndo today re LPIS reviews and fines in relation to marginal and commonage lands.

Farmer Pudsey

I see the IFA is rowing in behind you Con. They have organising a Commonage meeting tonight. I know it a bit of a spin right bang in the center of commonage area's. Well advertised as well.


It is on in Bunclody Co Wexford:eek:

paddysdream

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I see the IFA is rowing in behind you Con. They have organising a Commonage meeting tonight. I know it a bit of a spin right bang in the center of commonage area's. Well advertised as well.


It is on in Bunclody Co Wexford:eek:

Good bit of commonage on the Blackstairs and in south Wicklow.Not all good land in the sunny south east you know!!!!

Connemara Farmer

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I see the IFA is rowing in behind you Con. They have organising a Commonage meeting tonight. I know it a bit of a spin right bang in the center of commonage area's. Well advertised as well.


It is on in Bunclody Co Wexford:eek:

I saw that in the comic, uhm, to be honest I don't have a lot to say about it. Like I've said before I don't do too much thinking about what IFA are or aren't doing in relation to commonage/marginal land. Have wasted enough time on that already.

Connemara Farmer

http://www.yourcommonage.ie/

Good piece on land eligibility posted.

Connemara Farmer

Nice to see this issue getting a bit of wider press. Wonder will it make the Journal?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/news/farmers-sold-out-by-department--an-taisce-312316.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/an-taisce-queries-reallocation-of-unused-environmental-funds-1.2102172

Birdnuts

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

Nice to see this issue getting a bit of wider press. Wonder will it make the Journal?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/news/farmers-sold-out-by-department--an-taisce-312316.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/an-taisce-queries-reallocation-of-unused-environmental-funds-1.2102172

I see the Dept are trying to take us all for fools again by claiming that designated farmers were not interested in applying for these funds. Well the EU know the real story now thanx to IFDL and other groups, so they better have a better excuse than that when they get the call from Brussels.

Connemara Farmer

Birdnuts wrote: »

I see the Dept are trying to take us all for fools again by claiming that designated farmers were not interested in applying for these funds. Well the EU know the real story now thanx to IFDL and other groups, so they better have a better excuse than that when they get the call from Brussels.

I also liked the part where the Dept objected to the figures on the basis AT had not taken the Agri Env schemes into account - sure they're the mechanism used to, being polite, "distribute" the €528m out of designated areas.

I know there are a number of issues the EU are very unhappy about after they were brought to their attention, as others sold those issues to Brussels in quite a different light.

Capercaille

Birdnuts wrote: »

I see the Dept are trying to take us all for fools again by claiming that designated farmers were not interested in applying for these funds. Well the EU know the real story now thanx to IFDL and other groups, so they better have a better excuse than that when they get the call from Brussels.

x2

The spokeswoman added that farmers with Natura land will be guaranteed access to the first tier of the new agri-environment scheme known as Glas. Under the new scheme, farmers will receive up to €375 per hectare for protecting and enhancing the habitats for endangered farm birds.

Fail to add that payments are capped at 5,000 euro. The big sticking point.

Connemara Farmer

Some interesting questions raised in this piece.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=861115733946341&id=144404808950774

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=861501580574423&id=144404808950774&substory_index=0

rangler1

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

Some interesting questions raised in this piece.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=861115733946341&id=144404808950774

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=861501580574423&id=144404808950774&substory_index=0

The image ofOrigin Green isn't going to be much good if there isn't any beef or lamb about, which is what'll happen when they cut the subsidies to those that are producing it

Birdnuts

rangler1 wrote: »

The image ofOrigin Green isn't going to be much good if there isn't any beef or lamb about, which is what'll happen when they cut the subsidies to those that are producing it

The CAP is moving away from subsidies for production to general rural development focused on public goods provided by farmers like clean water,tourist landscapes, artizan/niche food products with added value etc.. I think that is a good thing for smaller farmers as production subsidies are simply a way of factories getting there hands on stock/produce for below cost price from farmers. It had to go that way anyway with the expansion of the EU. There is simply not enough money in the CAP pot to role out the type of headage schemes we saw in the 80's to places like Poland,Romania, Serbia etc.. As it is the CAP budget will come under serious pressure next time round as countries like the UK and Germany are already crumbling about how much farming is getting out of the EU budget compared to its overall contribution to the Euro economy.

PS: And yes we have to play the "Green" card since is it the main basis for Irish food marketing abroad. But it has to be more than just a label or slogan. The consumers that will pay premium prices for food are too savy nowadays to be hooked by PR campaigns that lack substance. And that is something the Dept and certain other players in the Irish Agri scene still don't seem to grasp:(

rangler1

Birdnuts wrote: »

The CAP is moving away from subsidies for production to general rural development focused on public goods provided by farmers like clean water,tourist landscapes, artizan/niche food products with added value etc.. I think that is a good thing for smaller farmers as production subsidies are simply a way of factories getting there hands on stock/produce for below cost price from farmers. It had to go that way anyway with the expansion of the EU. There is simply not enough money in the CAP pot to role out the type of headage schemes we saw in the 80's to places like Poland,Romania, Serbia etc.. As it is the CAP budget will come under serious pressure next time round as countries like the UK and Germany are already crumbling about how much farming is getting out of the EU budget compared to its overall contribution to the Euro economy.

PS: And yes we have to play the "Green" card since is it the main basis for Irish food marketing abroad. But it has to be more than just a label or slogan. The consumers that will pay premium prices for food are too savy nowadays to be hooked by PR campaigns that lack substance. And that is something the Dept and certain other players in the Irish Agri scene still don't seem to grasp:(

There is no future for farming in this country with beef at €4.00 - €450/kg or lamb at €5.00/kg without subsidies....most young people are too well educated to farm without prospects of a decent income now

Connemara Farmer

rangler1 wrote: »

The image ofOrigin Green isn't going to be much good if there isn't any beef or lamb about, which is what'll happen when they cut the subsidies to those that are producing it

Except farmers are not allowed to be paid on production, very slight flaw in your logic. This is why the 1 ewe to 1.5ha idea got dropped, against WTO rules. Harvest 2020 is not what the RDP is for, read the 266 questions sent back from Brussels.

The idea put out by the Dept that Natura farmers didn't want money is... I really wouldn't even waste the energy ridiculing it, it's that silly. Very simple for the EU to find the Dept out on that, as they are doing on other things.

Give someone enough rope comes to mind.