Commonage/hill farmers issues thread, GLAS, GAEC, etc etc

rangler1

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

Except farmers are not allowed to be paid on production, very slight flaw in your logic. This is why the 1 ewe to 1.5ha idea got dropped, against WTO rules. Harvest 2020 is not what the RDP is for, read the 266 questions sent back from Brussels.

The idea put out by the Dept that Natura farmers didn't want money is... I really wouldn't even waste the energy ridiculing it, it's that silly. Very simple for the EU to find the Dept out on that, as they are doing on other things.

Give someone enough rope comes to mind.

I know that....but if they don't change that guideline, food production will drop, CAP is very green and idealistic at the moment, my opinion is that'll have to change is the next review. The saying ''you can't eat the scenery'' comes to mind

Connemara Farmer

rangler1 wrote: »

I know that....but if they don't change that guideline, food production will drop, CAP is very green and idealistic at the moment, my opinion is that'll have to change is the next review. The saying ''you can't eat the scenery'' comes to mind

My opinion is the EU will be taking a closer focus on what they give Ireland money for, and what Ireland actually spends that money on. Some of the tales told out in Brussels about what's going on here have been found out.

newholland mad

Capercaille wrote: »

x2

Fail to add that payments are capped at 5,000 euro. The big sticking point.

Not that awfully well versed in this so excuse me if im missing something but are you saying that 5000 cap is too low for all glas applicants or are you saying there should be a 2 tiered cap with a higher limit for farmers with natura land ?

djmc

A food production drop could be a good thing for farmers and maybe beef factory's and huge supermarkets like tescos would sit up and take notice that they can't buy food at below the cost of production if supply started running out.
A flat rate payment per hectare would at least act as a safety net for farmers.

Farmer Pudsey

rangler1 wrote: »

There is no future for farming in this country with beef at €4.00 - €450/kg or lamb at €5.00/kg without subsidies....most young people are too well educated to farm without prospects of a decent income now

I think that this need to be rephrased.There is no future for full time beef farming in Ireland. Price is immaterial as even at 5/kg for beef it is unlikly that full time drystock is viable. In reality the only method of farming that is viable full time in 100 acres is milk.

However part time drystock and sheep farming is very viable. However too many are brainwashed by the promotion of full time farming. IMO suckler farming is not viable again at a beef price of less than 5/kg and this is not sustainable longterm. However again beef produced from the dairy herd is viable if beef farmers stopped paying too much for calves.

A 360 kg carcase at 4.25/kg comes into 1487. Production options are the key. Bullock for summer grazing slaughter under 36 months and killing bulls at 16 months and at 24 months during the winter period along with AA and HE bullocks and a viable bonus.

However the question here is about GLAS. The Dept and farm organisations pushed too much of an commercial agenda. they seem to have a bias against the west of the Shannon farmers. I a seriously coming to the opinion that a flat rate SFP front loaded is the best for most medium sized farmers. Too many usinf SFP now as a pension along with GLAS. Was amazed at a Teagasc meeting recently the way min farming methods were being pushed on good land. I see no reason why farms along the west coast should be discrimated against as a lot of minimal farming is happening on better land.

The department was really caught out over the commonage issue. This isuue is still in play as the idea that a commonage farmer will only get 120/HA in an area of natural constraint while a lad that is virtually at minimum farming will get 314 for low input permanent pasture is strange to me. The other question is why is there a limit on Hen harrier land etc. If you have land that is constrained by being designated should you not be compensated for this on all the land not just on some. For instance a lad that has 14Ha of HH land will get 5K however a lad that has 50Ha only gets the same as well. Then you add in the fact some of the most envoirmently green lad we have commonage is restricted to 120/HA you have to ask what sort of envoirment scheme it is.

djmc

newholland mad wrote: »

Not that awfully well versed in this so excuse me if im missing something but are you saying that 5000 cap is too low for all glas applicants or are you saying there should be a 2 tiered cap with a higher limit for farmers with natura land ?

I think he means for natura land but it should be probably higher for all land like reps4 by the time planners tax and farmers time are taken into account there will be a bit less than 5000.
I think natura farmers should be given the cost of renting land elsewhere if they can't farm the land they have.

Connemara Farmer

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

However the question here is about GLAS. The Dept and farm organisations pushed too much of an commercial agenda. they seem to have a bias against the west of the Shannon farmers. I a seriously coming to the opinion that a flat rate SFP front loaded is the best for most medium sized farmers. Too many usinf SFP now as a pension along with GLAS. Was amazed at a Teagasc meeting recently the way min farming methods were being pushed on good land. I see no reason why farms along the west coast should be discrimated against as a lot of minimal farming is happening on better land.

The department was really caught out over the commonage issue. This isuue is still in play as the idea that a commonage farmer will only get 120/HA in an area of natural constraint while a lad that is virtually at minimum farming will get 314 for low input permanent pasture is strange to me. The other question is why is there a limit on Hen harrier land etc. If you have land that is constrained by being designated should you not be compensated for this on all the land not just on some. For instance a lad that has 14Ha of HH land will get 5K however a lad that has 50Ha only gets the same as well. Then you add in the fact some of the most envoirmently green lad we have commonage is restricted to 120/HA you have to ask what sort of envoirment scheme it is.

Two things to add here:

First, the €120ha commonage payment. A large part of that is to be paid out to planners (as said by Paul Dillion of the Dept), a commonage masterplan is needed for each commonage, then another planner is needed for the individual farmers. Last I heard.

Second point is on minimal farming activities re destocking and Commonage framework plans. A lot of farmers are in ludicrous situations where they may be told (Slieve Aughty Mtns south Galway) their land is ineligible for payment as there's "no farming activity" visible on inspection. Yet, same had the Dept tell them they must remove their cattle from hills Nov - May. How could there be an activity when the Dept don't allow it? Never mind that that land is actually eligible for payment under European regulations. The unfortunate farmers in that area are just the advance victims in what will be a much wider scale debacle unless the Dept listen to reason.

As you rightly say Pudsey, there is a bias against certain types of farmers, however not only located West of the Shannon and that will be clearly evident when the land eligibility sh1t hits the fan.

djmc

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

Two things to add here:

First, the €120ha commonage payment. A large part of that is to be paid out to planners (as said by Paul Dillion of the Dept), a commonage masterplan is needed for each commonage, then another planner is needed for the individual farmers. Last I heard.

Second point is on minimal farming activities re destocking and Commonage framework plans. A lot of farmers are in ludicrous situations where they may be told (Slieve Aughty Mtns south Galway) their land is ineligible for payment as there's "no farming activity" visible on inspection. Yet, same had the Dept tell them they must remove their cattle from hills Nov - May. How could there be an activity when the Dept don't allow it? Never mind that that land is actually eligible for payment under European regulations. The unfortunate farmers in that area are just the advance victims in what will be a much wider scale debacle unless the Dept listen to reason.

As you rightly say Pudsey, there is a bias against certain types of farmers, however not only located West of the Shannon and that will be clearly evident when the land eligibility sh1t hits the fan.

Well done just saw the article about this in agriland.
Its great to finally see a farming organization that will stand up for farmers on marginal land

Connemara Farmer

djmc wrote: »

Well done just saw the article about this in agriland.
Its great to finally see a farming organization that will stand up for farmers on marginal land

This is the article and letter:

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/new-farm-organisation-takes-minister-to-task-on-inspections/

djmc

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/coveney-announces-opening-of-glas/
Looks like they are sticking to a cap on payments for hen harrier and natura sites too
Anyone know how many hectares is needed in spa to receive the full 7k in glas

Birdnuts

djmc wrote: »

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/coveney-announces-opening-of-glas/
Looks like they are sticking to a cap on payments for hen harrier and natura sites too
Anyone know how many hectares is needed in spa to receive the full 7k in glas

The most important part of the link

“While the formal approval process for the RDP as a whole has still to be completed, we now have a very clear understanding with the European Commission as to the shape of the new scheme, its priorities, the actions that should be applied and the rates of payment that will be made”, the Minister said."

I wouldn't call this issue as done and dusted just yet. Despite the spin from the minister the RDP hasn't been cleared yet which is rather unusual in light of the fact that other countries plans have already got the nod as reported in the farming press this week. Call me synical, but this statement seems to be a holding position to cover the fact that his plans have still not got the official nod from Brussels. Not to mention the fact that he obviously wants to waffle about the greatness of his proposed GLAS scheme at next weeks FG Ard Dheis

Bullocks

djmc wrote: »

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/coveney-announces-opening-of-glas/
Looks like they are sticking to a cap on payments for hen harrier and natura sites too
Anyone know how many hectares is needed in spa to receive the full 7k in glas

I don't but it would be interesting to see how many and what kind of spend is necessary to get the 7k . I'm getting almost 4 from AEOS without spending much bar the initial planners fee and a few soil samples

Connemara Farmer

The Governments blinkered view of land eligibility criteria on marginal and hill land, will IMO, lead to large uncontrolled fires in parts of the country this year.

Bullocks

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

The Governments blinkered view of land eligibility criteria on marginal and hill land, will IMO, lead to large uncontrolled fires in parts of the country this year.

If we get a dry summer I'd say they could expect trouble alright . Lads that never burnt scrub before will be at it this year and maybe it's no harm either to thin out some places that aren't allowed to stock it enough to do the job properly

djmc

An old man did that around here a few years back unfortunately the fire got out of control in him and burned thousands of acres of forestry plantation

Bullocks

djmc wrote: »

An old man did that around here a few years back unfortunately the fire got out of control in him and burned thousands of acres of forestry plantation

That's what I mean by expecting trouble , every year around here something gets burnt that shouldn't or at least there are close ones and that's just the regular burners . But if a few others decide to let fly with the blowtorch that wouldn't be used to it fires could travel fairly quick over a few dry weeks

Connemara Farmer

Laptop internet isn't working.

Had long reply typed out but can't post it!

supersean1999

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

Laptop internet isn't working.

Had long reply typed out but can't post it!

Ill take a guess. Mobile broadband down because of the wind?? Prob 3

Connemara Farmer

supersean1999 wrote: »

Ill take a guess. Mobile broadband down because of the wind?? Prob 3

No, radio broadband down due to the sea... Can do nothing off phone too fiddly.

supersean1999

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

No, radio broadband down due to the sea... Can do nothing off phone too fiddly.

The wild west haha. If my wifi goes i cant do much in the 2g.

Connemara Farmer

Bullocks wrote: »

If we get a dry summer I'd say they could expect trouble alright . Lads that never burnt scrub before will be at it this year and maybe it's no harm either to thin out some places that aren't allowed to stock it enough to do the job properly

Bullocks wrote: »

That's what I mean by expecting trouble , every year around here something gets burnt that shouldn't or at least there are close ones and that's just the regular burners . But if a few others decide to let fly with the blowtorch that wouldn't be used to it fires could travel fairly quick over a few dry weeks

See the point I was trying to make the last day was this, they won't be controlled fires, because the weather won't cooperate outside of the nesting season which begins the first of next month (March), and as we all know you can't burn legally inside the nesting season. SFP declaration deadline 15th of May.

The motivation to burn is the threat to all farm payments from, mostly, undergrazing of compulsorily destocked land. Inspections, which led to 100% and 60% penalties, in South Galway said there was no evidence of "farming activity" on lands where cattle had been forced off from November until May by the same Department. Farmers and ecologists walked that land recently and found nothing wrong with it.

Farmers cannot graze land appropriately where the method of grazing, the animals, have been removed from them. Now the Dept. complete with terribly fuzzy, vague, subjective, and opaque guidelines are fining farmers for doing what the Dept forced them to do in the first instance.

Only in Ireland would this sh1t be put up with.

Now, from my point of view, I am against burning. As some of my commonages were burned before (arson), and I know the result is aftergrass this Summer, and pure poverty for the next 8-9 years on my type land.

But people will burn that land, because their entire income is threatened, so they will have no choice. A 20% perceived "overclaim" leads to 100% loss.

Poor Farmer in the hills

I see Donegal INHFA have set up their first meeting to fill farmers in on how GLAS is going to work and to give farmers the opportunity to join the new farming organisation. Great to see somebody representing ordinary farmers!

Birdnuts

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

.

The motivation to burn is the threat to all farm payments from, mostly, undergrazing of compulsorily destocked land. Inspections, which led to 100% and 60% penalties, in South Galway said there was no evidence of "farming activity" on lands where cattle had been forced off from November until May by the same Department. Farmers and ecologists walked that land recently and found nothing wrong with it.

Farmers cannot graze land appropriately where the method of grazing, the animals, have been removed from them. Now the Dept. complete with terribly fuzzy, vague, subjective, and opaque guidelines are fining farmers for doing what the Dept forced them to do in the first instance.

Only in Ireland would this sh1t be put up with.

.

Sounds like another case of the Dept operating outside of CAP and EU rules. Using that logic you could be fined for rotational grazing on any farm. On plenty of farms in the west(including my own) its not possible to graze stock on bottomless land in the period October-April. This was always the way and is commonsense since it would be ruinous for both the land and the stock to leave them out over winter for obvious reasons. One can only come to the conclusion that their is an agenda here by the Irish state to drive traditional farming into extinction across marginal land in this country:mad:

patjack

100% agreed Birdnuts, and in my opinion this agenda has been pursued since the Govt and Ag Minister took charge.

I was very hopeful under Coveney, economy weak Ag strong, he could have held more for marginalised farmers. He could have resisted pressure for cuts in Agriculture from the Govt, because Ag was propping up the economy. Sadly he is only seeing the effect of his agenda now on rural Ireland. He is letting out droplets of information which seem to acknowledge that rural Ireland has been let down.

I don't disagree with his Agri-food agenda, he has done an excellent job promoting our reputation, but rural Ireland, marginalised areas, farmers in difficult areas who will always have a role to play (albeit not necessarily important to gross food production) have been badly let down.

It's like €100 euro has been taken from back pocket and we are now getting €50 back, through GLAS etc.

I am lucky in that I will qualify for GLAS, but do I think enough farmers will qualify? No. Do I think that the payment reflects the devaluation of land, the restriction on production, the years where there was a designation and no compensation. It doesn't, definitely doesn't.

I am not greedy, but the past five years have felt like, I don't feature in Mr. Coveneys plans, yet I have a role to play to maintaining the countryside that the Govt want me to continue doing.

We are different breed to highly productive, efficient farmer. We are not highly productive but we are efficient. It's efficiency at something different, and only those farming in these areas know and understand or users of these areas understand.

Completely different, we don't want money for nothing, but we have borne a huge cost the last few years where our land couldn't be planted or stocked etc, yet we had to put up with this restriction and the devaluation of land because of the restriction.

The threat that hangs over the existence of these farmers is serious. This is a serious threat, farmers are suffering. It is time for joined up thinking between Dept of Tourism and Dept of Ag and Dept of Arts Heritage and the Gaeltacht to ascertain in monetary terms our contribution to the economy.

Mr. O' Cuiv in fairness to him, albeit not a fan of his party has carried the baton for farmers like me (even though I am in a different provence). He understands and values real rural Ireland and he has shown an appreciation for it and for us which he carried through to his work and represented our cause which won't gain him too much politically. So credit where credit is due.

My only hope is that the groups that formed as a result of the lack of representation by the IFA and lack of understanding by the Govt, will never allow farmers like me to suffer this injustice again.

Connemara Farmer

There are a couple of pieces in the Farming Indo today worth a read.

Connemara Farmer

http://m.independent.ie/business/farming/hill-farmers-fury-over-department-inspections-31015648.html

supersean1999

Shower of dictators

Connemara Farmer

Christ this is some abortion of a scheme. Been doing the rounds, and have had the phone surgically attached to my head.

A complication today, pick a commonage, any commonage. On that commonage, the person who decides who should do the Commonage Management Plan is the planner who has the most individual clients on that commonage.

supersean1999

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

Christ this is some abortion of a scheme. Been doing the rounds, and have had the phone surgically attached to my head.

A complication today, pick a commonage, any commonage. On that commonage, the person who decides who should do the Commonage Management Plan is the planner who has the most individual clients on that commonage.

Could be a lot of places sold out of brown envelopes

Connemara Farmer

supersean1999 wrote: »

Could be a lot of places sold out of brown envelopes

How do you mean?

My head is wrecked, trying to sort out 5 commonages, and some shareholders on those have interests in other commonages I'm not involved with then also.

Getting very messy.

supersean1999

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

How do you mean?

My head is wrecked, trying to sort out 5 commonages, and some shareholders on those have interests in other commonages I'm not involved with then also.

Getting very messy.

Ara it's a load of ****ix the master plans should be done by the dep, and everyone pay there own guys, what a well organised cluster **** the dep have managed to pull, still no acknowledgement of the mess up on the last framework plans and de stocking, and now there fining lads for doing what they were told, this will be repeated in a few years after these daft plans where some go in and others don't, IMO can only work if run by the dep and 100% must join or no payments, time to sort out the hills, how many on them, who is using them, it's madness

Connemara Farmer

supersean1999 wrote: »

Ara it's a load of ****ix the master plans should be done by the dep, and everyone pay there own guys, what a well organised cluster **** the dep have managed to pull, still no acknowledgement of the mess up on the last framework plans and de stocking, and now there fining lads for doing what they were told, this will be repeated in a few years after these daft plans where some go in and others don't, IMO can only work if run by the dep and 100% must join or no payments, time to sort out the hills, how many on them, who is using them, it's madness

Yeah, absolutely agree.

ihatewinter

Oh the fun begins :mad::mad:

Connemara Farmer

ihatewinter wrote: »

Oh the fun begins :mad::mad:

It's great fun, and cheap.... Two commonages I'm on nearly have as many individual planners as active shareholders. The others which I thought were relatively safe ground now have the same situation. My strategy of looking to avoid paying for multiple CMP planners may be on the rocks.

Thought I had an insurmountable job done and wrapped up this week.

Days like this I remember the serenity prayer.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

And ironically given it's better know application, I'm off to have a bottle of cider.

ihatewinter

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

It's great fun, and cheap.... Two commonages I'm on nearly have as many individual planners as active shareholders. The others which I thought were relatively safe ground now have the same situation. My strategy of looking to avoid paying for multiple CMP planners may be on the rocks.

Thought I had an insurmountable job done and wrapped up this week.

Days like this I remember the serenity prayer.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

And ironically given it's better know application, I'm off to have a bottle of cider.

By the end of it, plenty will be hitting the strong stuff. I have 2 commonages, 1 will be a total disaster as i don't talk to any of them and they will do as they please and overstock etc and luckily the second commonage is family owned, though it doesn't mean there won't be disagreement over it.

Connemara Farmer

ihatewinter wrote: »

By the end of it, plenty will be hitting the strong stuff. I have 2 commonages, 1 will be a total disaster as i don't talk to any of them and they will do as they please and overstock etc and luckily the second commonage is family owned, though it doesn't mean there won't be disagreement over it.

There is an awful lot of talk of the commonage management plans eventually being linked to the SFP. There's also talk of farmers in the CMP's having "some" protection compared to farmers outside them. I suspect those overstocking hills will get punished, but it will be up to individual farmers to let their planner know it's happening. Not a nice situation.

You don't need any1 else to get into GLAS by the way, it's just handier to have cooperation on costs.

djmc

I wonder would it be possible for everyone to set out there own list of proposals on what how they should manage hill farms natura land etc.
Ie. Hill farm representatives, department of environment and department of agriculture an taisca birdwatch Ireland etc.
Then sit down and work something out.
It seems to me that the department of environment and the department of agriculture are pushing their own agenda in two opposed directions with the farmers stuck in the middle.

djmc

Imo they have set stocking limits for a set amount of acres.
If a farmer is within the stocking limits why should it matter what he is growing on his land bar noxious weeds etc.
The only reason I can see is to push production and if that's what they want then lift the restrictions on reclaiming ground and bogs burning spraying drainage etc and let the farmer drive on.
Some direction is needed besides a guy with a clip board shrugging his shoulders that he is just doing his job

Base price

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/new-farming-organisation-inhfa-to-launch-in-donegal/

I said

Base price wrote: »

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/new-farming-organisation-inhfa-to-launch-in-donegal/

Sort of excludes a lot of people with the title who might want away from IFA ie. dairy and beef

supersean1999

Base price wrote: »

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/new-farming-organisation-inhfa-to-launch-in-donegal/

That hairy buck in the picture needs shearing

Base price

supersean1999 wrote: »

That hairy buck in the picture needs shearing

:D

Poor Farmer in the hills

From what i see the new farm organisation will attract a lot of farmers .You are not excluded by any means if your land is not designated. We are all facing the same difficulties with sheep and cattle on marginal land and unfair distribution of payments

rangler1

Poor Farmer in the hills wrote: »

From what i see the new farm organisation will attract a lot of farmers .You are not excluded by any means if your land is not designated. We are all facing the same difficulties with sheep and cattle on marginal land and unfair distribution of payments

I wonder what your SFP would be if it was based on production, my subsidy equates to about €40/ lamb produced which is needed to stay in business.
A lot of people with jobs and good incomes shouting to reduce our income is all I see, saw the same thing with the installation aid,
If the department think they can reduce our SFPs and still keep beef/lamb production rising, they're in dreamland

rangler1

Base price wrote: »

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/new-farming-organisation-inhfa-to-launch-in-donegal/

Did you not tell us you sold your entitlements......you're hard to follow

Base price

rangler1 wrote: »

Did you not tell us you sold your entitlements......you're hard to follow

I told you that I sold some of them, not all of them.

rangler1

Base price wrote: »

I told you that I sold some of them, not all of them.

....and your supporting a group taking SFP from productive farmers
Each to their own I suppose

Base price

rangler1 wrote: »

....and your supporting a group taking SFP from productive farmers
Each to their own I suppose

The demise of the SFP has been on the cards for years.
I am not a member of the new organisation (we are IFA members) however I do applaud them for their efforts in representing farmers who were overlooked by other farm organisations. Just because you farm marginal land does not mean you are unproductive. In fact your statement is insulting to such farmers.
I believe in the principle of social inclusion and would extend that principle to equality in the agri sector. If my land in Leinster can produce more than land in other areas of the country then it is up to me to farm it accordingly. I should not receive more SFP per hectare due to location.

rangler1

Base price wrote: »

The demise of the SFP has been on the cards for years.
I am not a member of the new organisation (we are IFA members) however I do applaud them for their efforts in representing farmers who were overlooked by other farm organisations. Just because you farm marginal land does not mean you are unproductive. In fact your statement is insulting to such farmers.
I believe in the principle of social inclusion and would extend that principle to equality in the agri sector. If my land in Leinster can produce more than land in other areas of the country then it is up to me to farm it accordingly. I should not receive more SFP per hectare due to location.

You have to admit that there isn't the same opportunity for outside employment farming 500+ ewes on 100 acres as there would be farming 100 ewes and there has to be an income subsidy there.
Also I wrote that they were trying to reduce active famers SFP, I didn't refer to whether they were productive or not.
As for the new organisation, there's a hill farming committee in IFA and if farmers aren't happy with the ELECTED representatives they've only themselves to blame.
I'm fed up with elected representatives on commitees (not just the hill committee mind you) blaming both Gen Sec and president for the reps own weaknesses, all commitees are provided with facilities and expertise (and better say it , expenses) and it's up to them to capitalise on that. 33 different committee reports at the AGM, How can two people be responsible for all that and be the face of IFA as well.

supersean1999

rangler1 wrote: »

You have to admit that there isn't the same opportunity for outside employment farming 500+ ewes on 100 acres as there would be farming 100 ewes and there has to be an income subsidy there.
Also I wrote that they were trying to reduce active famers SFP, I didn't refer to whether they were productive or not.
As for the new organisation, there's a hill farming committee in IFA and if farmers aren't happy with the ELECTED representatives they've only themselves to blame.
I'm fed up with elected representatives on commitees (not just the hill committee mind you) blaming both Gen Sec and president for the reps own weaknesses, all commitees are provided with facilities and expertise (and better say it , expenses) and it's up to them to capitalise on that. 33 different committee reports at the AGM, How can two people be responsible for all that and be the face of IFA as well.

.
Does the hill rep have a vote at national level????. You mention 500 ewes id imagine you would be expecting to sell 1.5 lambs a ewe. Thats 750 lambs. And did you say you get e40 a lamb in sfp.Thats serious money.