No christening. Family issues

Whispered

First baby due at the beginning of December and I don't want to have it christened.

Now I'm not against having a belief and I am agnostic rather than athiest. My issue is with the idea of indoctrinating a baby, who knows no better, into a group who at the very least has let the children in its care down time and again.

The idea of going to a catholic school and learning the Catholic religion is not one I'm comfortable with and id rather travel to get my child into a school which isn't run by a religious order. I know a relative who feels similarly to me had her son christened and he is going to a catholic school, so he will fit in. He is in junior infants and she was very upset to hear him recently tell his younger brother that gods light shines from him when he is good.

My husband is going along with my wishes for now, but I know as soon as his family (who are not religious btw) put pressure on he will want to relent for an easy life. Sure everyone does it, why not just go along with it etc. He is worried about the child fitting in, missing out on the "big day" of his or her communion etc.

I gave in with our wedding and had it in a church, this is more important to me. I see it potentially effecting my child's whole life. On the other hand, my husband has as much right to have a say in the decision.

I was wondering how many of you have experienced the same and how you handled it. Also any way I can put it to my husband to help him understand why this is an important decision, not something to just go along with.

Thanks.

brandnewaward

same as that , when we do have kids. i told the missus that i wouldn't have kids if they had to be baptized. she was worried about the mother and what she'd say and also the school situation , but we've since moved abroad and its not so much an issue

Whispered

See I'm not sure the school thing is actually still an issue here. I could be wrong of course as I've no experience, but with educate together schools popping up and Ireland becoming more diverse surely not being christened and not being Catholic is becoming more "normal"?

My main challenge is to persuade the hubby that there are good reasons to not do it. My own parents, in particular my father aren't happy about it but I can handle them myself. I will however need his support when it comes to his family. In an ideal world we could say "it's not being done end of story" and it would be dropped. But I know he's gonna end up caught between me saying no and other people pressurising him.

I do not want to be bullied into this, but don't want to effectively bully my husband into not doing it. So a clear cohesive "against" argument so that he's fully comfortable with the decision will be needed

endacl

I'd wait till the child is 18, and ask him/her what they wish to do regarding their baptism. Seems to me to be the fairest way to deal with the issue.

That's what I'd be telling anybody who didn't have any business having an opinion on the matter.

endacl

Whispered wrote: »

But I know he's gonna end up caught between me saying no and other people pressurising him.

If he does honestly agree with you, then it's time for him to 'husband up'.

Whispered

endacl wrote: »

If he does honestly agree with you, then it's time for him to 'husband up'.

I agree but he doesn't have a strong opinion on the matter either way. He's not at all religious, no beliefs what so ever, but would go along with things for a quiet life, where as I would have a more agnostic leaning than him but am very against organised religion as a whole.

bobskii

I have this exact same dilemma looming . except ill be getting pressure from both sets of parents . my husbands answer is sur why not christen him/her we were all christened .
but I want the child to make up its own mind when it's old enough and not be rail roaded into the Catholic religion 'just because'.

moc moc a moc

Whispered wrote: »

He's not at all religious, no beliefs what so ever, but would go along with things for a quiet life

You married a mouse, not a man.

Whispered

moc moc a moc wrote: »

You married a mouse, not a man.

That is very helpful. Thank you.

If you have anything constructive to add, that doesn't involve insulting both me and my husband id be interested to hear it.

Whispered

bobskii wrote: »

I have this exact same dilemma looming . except ill be getting pressure from both sets of parents . my husbands answer is sur why not christen him/her we were all christened .
but I want the child to make up its own mind when it's old enough and not be rail roaded into the Catholic religion 'just because'.

I have it both sides too, but I find it much easier to let people know when to back off than he does. Haha only yesterday my dad decided that he was going to discuss how I should get rid of my dogs before baby is born. The conversation ended very quickly when I told him that I don't really care what his opinion on it is. The christening conversation was handled in much the same way. I told them, gave my reasons the let them know it was not really up for discussion.

Husband is much less confrontational than I am and more laid back though, it's one of the things I love about him. Most of the time

It's the "just because" that gets me too. If he was religious I'd be happy for him to share that with his child. I'd have to be really. But he's not! I think "just because" is a terrible reason to do it.

Peregrinus

This is a decision for you and your husband. The feelings of your husband's extended family are a fairly peripheral consideration. Not completely irrelevant, but they shouldn't be driving this.

Having said that, not all of the concerns your husband expresses are about his family's feelings - he is also concerned for the child's welfare; doesn't want him feeling different, left out, etc, etc.

Of course, your child will grow up in a world which is quite different from the world your husband (and no doubt you also) grew up in. As you say, I don't think that, as an unbaptised child, your child will be quite as marked by difference as would have been the case twenty or thirty years ago.

Plus, it might help you to talk to a couple of people who were raised as unbaptised children in Ireland - no doubt there are a few on this board, or at least there are people who can point you in the right direction. They can tell you what the experience was like for them, even twenty or thirty years ago. They may be able to allay some of your husband's concerns. It may n ot have been as bad, even then, as he thinks, and it certainly will be less bad still at present, and in the near future.

Assuming you get your husband is onside, be gentle with your husband's family. Stand your ground, but try to do so in a way that makes it easier for them to accept your decision. It's not their decision but, still, best to minimise any confrontation or bad feelign that results from them sticking their noses in. Explain your feelings about raising your child to make his or her own choice. And consider having a naming/welcoming celebration and perhaps even "godparents" for the child - find another term, obviously - so that the extended family can mark his or her arrival in the way they would want to.

Whispered

Thank you! That's very helpful.

bobskii

ah I've had plenty of that too . dogs gotta go,in fairness my father wouldn't suggest it cos he knows the answer he'd get which would be similar to the one you gave!!
I can deal with my own family ,mainly my mum on the religion front as my dad is in no way religious .But my father in law is staunch Catholic and I know that will be a tough one . plus like your oh mine is laid back and chilled but also likes to please his father at all times . I honestly don't know what I'm going to do but every time it's brought up its brushed aside(by hubby) probably to avoid the argument!

Whispered

Have you looked at schools in your area? Do you have a non religious option?

It's a tough one because at the end of the day you can get it done and then forget about it. It just doesn't feel right though. Neither parent on his side is religious. They'd want it done just because too. It's maddness

Actually I think I will send him a link to this forum. If he browses a bit it might make him have an opinion either way.

bobskii

my cousin goes to the local school and he's not baptised so I'm presuming it'd b ok. like you I don't mind if I have to travel to get to a school which isn't Catholic run.
I have a feeling my oh is Gonna dig his heels in over this but like you I gave into the church wedding for peace sake but don't want to drag a child into a religion that it will question in years to come.

indigo twist

I was expecting all sort of arguments with my family over not getting our child baptised, but they have been surprisingly quiet on the issue, thankfully. If I were to announce a christening tomorrow, they would be over the moon - but they've accepted it's just not going to happen. I explained to them that it would be hypocritical of me and disrespectful to their faith for me to stand up in a church and lie about how I was going to raise my son.

Maybe ask your husband to actually read the promises you both would have to make as part of the ceremony, including renewing your own faith. Ask him to consider the fact that he would be admitting that his newborn was born sinful and needs to be cleansed of those sins ... I mean, it's not just a case of dressing the baby up in a pretty white gown and taking some photos and having a party - it's a fairly serious ceremony. And it's signing the child up for life. The child can choose to get baptised at any stage of their life - they can never ever get unbaptised though; once it's done, they are counted as a member of the Catholic population for life.

A naming ceremony is a lovely alternative way to welcome the child without making those promises on his/her behalf. I know of a few people who went for a humanist naming ceremony and were very happy - might be worth looking into - there isn't a huge amount of info on the website, but you'll get contact details of celebrants there. If you have religious family members, you might choose to ask them to say a prayer or a blessing at the ceremony, if you're comfortable with that (not sure if this is allowed at humanist ceremonies, but you could always do your own, get a friend or family to officiate, and make up your own rules!)

If it ends up being a case that your husband is firmly in favour of a Catholic baptism and you're firmly against it - well, it very likely won't be the first or the last time that you disagree when it comes to parenting decisions! In making the decision, I would ask whether this will benefit the child, and how? Would you be acting in his/her best interests? How would you feel if your child turns around in twenty years time and tells you how they wish they hadn't been signed up for this; that they wish you'd left the decision to them? For that matter, how would you feel if they decided in twenty years time that they wanted to be a priest/nun?! How would you cope with a five-year-old or a ten-year-old terrified of hell - it'll be a lot harder to reassure them that it's all fairytales when you signed them up for this religion.

Have you thought about further down the line; communions and confirmations? If you go through with these, your child will go through quite a bit of brainwashing in preparation - it's not just a case of turning up on the day - many priests insist on the whole family attending weekly mass coming up to the event. I don't think I could stand watching my child being brainwashed; I'd find it very hard to listen to them talking about God and heaven and hell, and accepting it all as fact. But it's the path you'd be setting them on. If you give in to the baptism, don't you think the same family pressure will apply when it comes to first confessions and communions and all the rest?

I think it's important to make your decision before the child is born, and be ready to present a united front to your families. Something to consider - I don't know of anyone who regrets not having been baptised as a baby, or who regrets not having had their baby baptised. Because if someone wishes they were baptised, well they can go right ahead and do it, at any age. On the other hand, plenty of people wish they hadn't been baptised. Plenty of parents regret giving in to pressure and doing it to keep the peace. You can never undo it once it's been done. And you'll face the same issues with any future children - be careful about the precedent you set here.

Peregrinus

bobskii wrote: »

my cousin goes to the local school and he's not baptised so I'm presuming it'd b ok.

Depends. If it's a religious school and if demand for places is high, being baptised can definitely get you up the queue.

bobskii wrote: »

I have a feeling my oh is Gonna dig his heels in over this but like you I gave into the church wedding for peace sake but don't want to drag a child into a religion that it will question in years to come.

Trust me. Whatever beliefs you "drag" the child into it will question in years to come.

Still, best not to drag it into beliefs that you don't actually share.

Whispered

If I could thank that twice I would indigo. Loads to open up a discussion there. Thanks.

It's YOUR baby, yours and your Husbands. It's YOUR decision. Make that decision now and let it be known. End of story!

brandnewaward

+1 on the naming ceremony, we are having a humanist wedding year after next with bridgit carlin from the humanist society , she had fantastic ideas for the wedding so we probably would do the naming ceremony with her too. communions and confirmations at school will be tricky for the child but they surely will get over it , just bring em somewhere special that weekend and it'll be outta their minds

bobskii

indigo om going to print that off . It says exactly what I think myself and why I think that way . Thanks.

lazybones32

This is your child, not your family-in-law's child. Your husband needs to take your side more than acquiescing to his parents/kin's request regarding your child. Your voice and opinion should be more important than all others when it comes to your family unit.

I may be a bit blunt, aggressive and lacking in tact when it comes to unwelcome intrusion in my decisions but someone needs to be firm and it seems like your husband isn't going to do that. I'm not trying to insult him or you but I can't understand such passivity.

Hotblack Desiato

Since the formal defection process was abolished a few years ago, the RCC is the Hotel California of religions, you can check out but you can never leave.

RCC is still secretive over its records of child abuse and still refusing to pay the (little) compensation it agreed to pay. Even if I was religious I wouldn't touch this organisation with a bargepole.

School places won't be an issue unless schools are oversubscribed in your area, even so your child still has a right to a school place and Dept Education can direct a school to admit your child. It just might not be your preferred school though.

Lots of children are not baptised and/or don't take part in sacraments, your child will certainly not be the only one. If it wasn't for the kids of non-believers our local CoI school could well be closed by now.

You have the constitutional right to opt your child out of religious instruction in school, the school may object on the basis of supervision etc. but this is their problem to deal with not yours. It just needs a small amount of flexibility and goodwill on the school's part. Oddly, this doesn't ever seem to be a problem to accommodate when it's muslims, hindus etc. asking to opt out of religious instruction..

The bouncy castle catholics seem to be the worst for wanting other people to conform to what they do (which is, go through the motions) as it prevents them from having to question their own choices and beliefs. People who are more religious aren't usually as keen to make non-believers stand up in a church and tell lies.

magicbastarder

one analogy to use with the in-laws is to point out to them that in no way would they be trying to pressure you to have the kid baptised as muslim as that is not a religion you follow; so expecting you to baptise it as catholic, another religion you do not follow, is just as absurd.

rainbow kirby

brandnewaward wrote: »

+1 on the naming ceremony, we are having a humanist wedding year after next with bridgit carlin from the humanist society , she had fantastic ideas for the wedding so we probably would do the naming ceremony with her too.

I would lean in that direction too - having a humanist wedding next year with Tina Storey and if the families want a day out to celebrate a new arrival then the naming ceremony seems like a good plan. The thought of going through a Catholic baptism for any future child of mine makes me feel a bit sick tbh. Thankfully, not living in Ireland makes the school thing a bit easier - only 15 out of 47 primaries in my borough (Islington) are faith schools.

lazygal

We are lucky in that we were in agreement before we got married that if and when we had children we would not baptize. If our choice was between baptizing solely to secure a school place or homeschooling, I would homeschool. We reasoned that our parents made their choices about how we were raised which, like many a la carte catholics, involved the ceremonies. That was their decision about us when we were under their control. So when we had our children, pretty much like when we were planning our wedding and a church wedding was mentioned, we pointed out that this was not our parents' day, so this child was ours, and while we welcome having extended family around, the big decisions would be made by us and us alone.
I know it bothers my father greatly that we didn't baptize our children and he sees it as a 'just in case' thing to do. But frankly we cannot and will not take hurt feelings of others into account for all our decisions. There are things I'll give leeway on, like the grandparents giving them treats they'd never get at home, small stuff like that I'll suck it up. But on the big things, like how we raise our children and faith formation and indoctrination, only me and my husband get a say on that. I will say that having not had a church wedding we smoothed the path somewhat for baptism questions. I would encourage your husband to think of you and him as a family unit, and the rest of both your families being outside that when it comes to big decisions.

eviltwin

I had my first baptised because it was the done thing at the time. By the time number 2 came along all the scandal had happened and I knew I was atheist anyway so I had cut all ties with the church. There was no way number 2 was going to be baptised after that. Yes people were very upset but we'd already had a civil wedding so we'd kinda nailed our colours to the mast at that point so I doubt anyone was really surprised. But it did cause issues for a while. He's almost 5 now though and no one cares, people will get over it and in a few years will have forgotten about it.

As hard as it may be I think its worth riding the storm if it means that much to you. I wanted to raise my child to be an independent free thinker who respects everyone no matter what their background and I don't think an active involvement with the RCC fosters that.

My son is now in school in an ET and growing up without the albatross that is the church around his neck, he's the first child in either of our entire families ever not to be a Catholic and I have to be honest, I feel pretty great knowing that for my little family at least the cycle has ended. He can do what he wants when he gets older but at least we'll know if he does end up joining a church it will be through his own choice and not because it was forced on him.

Whispered

Really glad I posted here now, I was somewhat reluctant. I felt a bit like it left us (and in particular my husband) open to insult but you've all been really helpful.

I think I'll send him a link to this thread so he can see that not only is it not unusual in this day and age but that it is actually an important decision.

Thanks!!

lazygal

Your child will by no means be the only one not doing religion if that is part of the school they attend. When I got the 'left out' comments, I pointed out that we tell our children all the time that just because 'everyone else' is doing something doesn't mean you can or should do it. I really, really wish my parents had thought more about simply going through the catholic motions with us. Especially since they never really believed any of the teachings anyway. At the time I might have felt sad about not doing communion and confirmation and all that goes with that, but that's not a good enough reason to start indoctrinating an infant IMO.
There are some groups such as Teach Don't Preach that have good resources on navigating the religious school system when the time comes.

Brian Shanahan

Whispered wrote: »

I agree but he doesn't have a strong opinion on the matter either way. He's not at all religious, no beliefs what so ever, but would go along with things for a quiet life, where as I would have a more agnostic leaning than him but am very against organised religion as a whole.

By getting your child christened, in the eyes of the church you are making an irrevocable decision for that child (as there is no mechanism for renouncing your christianity within the rcc, and the church will always count them as catholic). If it were me doing the persuading I would strongly emphasise the sheer immorality of making a decision for another in this matter (were it an actual life or death situation, like getting surgery for the child, it would be different), essentially co-opting them into a club without their consent from which they can never leave in the eyes of that club, and from which membership that club will continue to skew the ruling of this country. But I'm a bit of hardarse when it comes to something like this, so it may not be the best advice.

Whispered wrote: »

Have you looked at schools in your area? Do you have a non religious option?

I can answer this one for the whole country. Unless you are willing to pay through the nose for a private education, all schools are required to have a religious component, as departmental rules state in no unclear terms that "faith formation" (i.e. religious indoctrination) is an essential component of a child's education (the mandarins seem to labour under the delusion that for one to be moral one must have religion). ET schools tend to mitigate this harsh bias somewhat, but mostly in a happy-clappy "all religions are good" saccharine kind of way.

Your best bet for a non-religious education in Ireland is to emigrate, unfortunately.

Whispered

If I understand the ET schools correctly, do they cover religion from a more cultural PoV? I have no issue with a child learning about different religions, beliefs, cultures etc so long as he or she is not being told they have to believe it too. I could be wrong and will certainly look into it further.

I don't think schools do much to encourage critical thinking and self development in children on a range of issues (kids in uniform, or very young kids learning while sitting at a desk, for example) but at least on the religion part we have a bit more control.

I'm surprised at how strongly I feel about it tbh.

Brian Shanahan

Whispered wrote: »

If I understand the ET schools correctly, do they cover religion from a more cultural PoV? I have no issue with a child learning about different religions, beliefs, cultures etc so long as he or she is not being told they have to believe it too. I could be wrong and will certainly look into it further.

Departmental rules say that they have to have a religious ethos, and give educational time to "faith formation" to get state funding (one one of the threads here there was guideline for time spent teaching subjects in primary school which mandated 10% of teaching hours to religious faith formation, equal with the three basics, English, Irish and Maths. There's actually quite a number of threads which detail the religiosity of the Irish education system). Just because they are not so dogmatic about the "you're going to hell if you don't follow the one true faith" line, doesn't make the religion they have to indoctrinate any less unpalatable.

lazygal

ET schools are multi denominational. So children are expected to join in the celebration of other faiths. I've read about their programme and I have issues with the time given over to celebrate the occasions during class because it seems that it still reinforces the notion that religion is an essential part of education in Irish schools. There are no non denominational schools in Ireland funded by the state. We have our children's names down for an ET but I'm not 100% happy with the fact that they'll have to actively participate in celebrating things they don't believe. It's the least worst option for us. I was quite enthusiastic about ET originally but they are seen as a 'just religious enough' option by the Department rather than as a real alterative to ethos and faith based schools.

fisgon

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The bouncy castle catholics seem to be the worst for wanting other people to conform to what they do (which is, go through the motions) as it prevents them from having to question their own choices and beliefs. People who are more religious aren't usually as keen to make non-believers stand up in a church and tell lies.

This is actually a really good point, and one I hadn't heard before.

It's not completely accurate - there's many an Irish mass going mammy who will insist on a baptism for her grandchildren whether the parents believe or not - but it is true that it is often the passive, going-along-with-it crowd who don't like when someone steps out of line.

fisgon

eviltwin wrote: »

. There was no way number 2 was going to be baptised after that. Yes people were very upset ..... it did cause issues for a while. He's almost 5 now though and no one cares, people will get over it and in a few years will have forgotten about it.

.

Exactly. This is not the Ireland of the 1950s or even of the 1980s. In most schools now there are children of other faiths, so most schools are used to accommodating kids who are not doing religion. It is not right that kids are separated like this, but it is not nearly as ostracising as it used to be.

Also, my nieces go to a catholic school, though they were never baptized. They were never asked for a baptismal cert. Church schools in general, are aware that the majority of people, given a choice, would not send their kids to a catholic school, and so realize they need to be flexible to not piss people off.

Also, Irish society is changing still, and becoming more irreligious all the time. Those family members who object to the lack of baptism are quickly becoming the minority. More and more people are opting out. It will become more normal. People will get over it, and soon forget about it.

There is also the point that you (the OP) are setting an example. This may not be high on your list of priorities, but no doubt there are cousins, or younger siblings in your family, neighbours and friends around you, who realize, when you don't baptize, that it is actually possible, that the herd mentality is not obligatory. It is contributing, in a small way, to a more truly open, tolerant society.

eviltwin

Whispered wrote: »

If I understand the ET schools correctly, do they cover religion from a more cultural PoV? I have no issue with a child learning about different religions, beliefs, cultures etc so long as he or she is not being told they have to believe it too. I could be wrong and will certainly look into it further.

I don't think schools do much to encourage critical thinking and self development in children on a range of issues (kids in uniform, or very young kids learning while sitting at a desk, for example) but at least on the religion part we have a bit more control.

I'm surprised at how strongly I feel about it tbh.

I think it depends on the school. My son's school learn about different religions as part of an ethics class but they don't celebrate individual faiths. They learnt about Dewali recently but just learnt about it, that was it. I live in a very multi cultural area so there are people of all faiths in my son's class, its a point of interest I guess when some kids are doing something special like that and it tends to come up in the news ( they start the day by telling teacher their "news"). Its important to me that my son grows up with knowledge of other faiths and if possible has friends of those faiths and I feel that's more likely in an ET. The RCC schools in my area are still very much Catholic in numbers.

ET's tend to be very open, everyone is seen as equal, teachers and pupils use first names, there are no uniforms, they have very active student councils even in the very young classes, regular assemblies, parents are encouraged to get involved too. Its not perfect but its better than a lot of options out there.

lazygal

From asking around about our local ET, while they learn 'about' religious festivals, they will also celebrate them, as in they'll do some artwork about it, the children of that faith might bring in food and there's a level of fuss made. I guess its a blurring of lines between learning about something and celebration of it. I mean, should we have to send ours to a Catholic school is letting them participate in a nativity play learning about Christmas from a catholic perspective or indoctrination? Plus, how on earth can every faith be taught in an ethics class? There are tens of thousands of denominations out there.

eviltwin

lazygal wrote: »

From asking around about our local ET, while they learn 'about' religious festivals, they will also celebrate them, as in they'll do some artwork about it, the children of that faith might bring in food and there's a level of fuss made. I guess its a blurring of lines between learning about something and celebration of it. I mean, should we have to send ours to a Catholic school is letting them participate in a nativity play learning about Christmas from a catholic perspective or indoctrination? Plus, how on earth can every faith be taught in an ethics class? There are tens of thousands of denominations out there.

I suppose it depends on your point of view. I don't have such a problem with religion that I want my son to have nothing to do with it. These kids are his friends and I want him to learn about the cultures and important days in his friends lives. Personally I don't mind being involved in people's religious celebrations myself. My husbands family are devout Catholics and a close friend of mine is Muslim. I've been to a few things in my time and once I'm not asked to pray or anything like that I'll go along, eat the food, have a good time. I think its about context. If you're invited to a wedding in a Catholic church most people will go because they are there to celebrate with the couple, you're not expected to go and pray or receive communion. They don't ask you in order to convert you, they want you there to be part of a big thing in their lives. I think its the same for other faiths too. They just want to show you something that means a lot to them.

They don't teach every faith, afaik they only did Dewali because there are Hindus in the class. I would expect them to learn about the main faiths but they have until 6th class to do all that.

Whispered

I can see the blurring and I guess I would consider it the same as kid been told fairy tales in school or drawing pics of the north pole around christmas etc. So long as they are not being told it's what they have to believe in I don't have a problem, although I can see how people would. I also recognise that religious beliefs were (are?) fundamental in the development of various interesting and rich cultures, can be very interesting to learn about and can explain a lot about why the world is as it is today.

I sent the thread on (hi o/) and his response was that we have more important things to think about than a christening when it comes to raising our child (like what baby swim place we will go to apparently :pac:). So I'm going to take that answer as him agreeing that christening is not important enough to either of us to bother with

lazygal

Most important, which sports teams will the child be forced to support?!

lazygal

eviltwin wrote: »

I suppose it depends on your point of view. I don't have such a problem with religion that I want my son to have nothing to do with it. These kids are his friends and I want him to learn about the cultures and important days in his friends lives. Personally I don't mind being involved in people's religious celebrations myself. My husbands family are devout Catholics and a close friend of mine is Muslim. I've been to a few things in my time and once I'm not asked to pray or anything like that I'll go along, eat the food, have a good time. I think its about context. If you're invited to a wedding in a Catholic church most people will go because they are there to celebrate with the couple, you're not expected to go and pray or receive communion. They don't ask you in order to convert you, they want you there to be part of a big thing in their lives. I think its the same for other faiths too. They just want to show you something that means a lot to them.

They don't teach every faith, afaik they only did Dewali because there are Hindus in the class. I would expect them to learn about the main faiths but they have until 6th class to do all that.

My issue is bringing religion into a state mandated service. The state forces all children to learn about religion, even if it clashes with their ethos. To me celebration of religion should be done in the home, not by state paid teachers. We're obliged to send our children to school, yet the system pays no heed to the wishes of parents who want a non religious option for their children, instead the option is a wooly 'we learn about all faiths, well the ones that pop up in class or that we think are big enough to discuss' approach.

Pherekydes

lazygal wrote: »

Most important, which sports teams will the child be forced to support?!

Once they join the local GAA club they can never leave...:pac:

Brian Shanahan

lazygal wrote: »

Most important, which sports teams will the child be forced to support?!

Munster in the Rugby, and Limerick in the GAA, of course! There are no other logical choices.

eviltwin

lazygal wrote: »

My issue is bringing religion into a state mandated service. The state forces all children to learn about religion, even if it clashes with their ethos. To me celebration of religion should be done in the home, not by state paid teachers. We're obliged to send our children to school, yet the system pays no heed to the wishes of parents who want a non religious option for their children, instead the option is a wooly 'we learn about all faiths, well the ones that pop up in class or that we think are big enough to discuss' approach.

I would be angry if large portions of the school day were being set aside to celebrate anything tbh, I don't know how it works in the older classes as my boy is in Junior Inf but they have a circle time every morning where they talk about what is going on with them and afaik the teacher takes her cues from that. If one of the kids has been on holiday somewhere or someone has gotten a new pet the teacher will build that into the work of the day. As I said religion isn't something that bothers me once its not being taught in a faith formation way or one faith is seen as being more important than others so I don't mind it being discussed. I do agree that in an ideal world something that is a lifestyle choice should be taught at home and should not be part of the education system but you can't trust everyone to do that responsibly. The most important thing for me is that my son grows up to know and respect other people's belief systems and that they respect him.

Whispered

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Munster in the Rugby, and Limerick in the GAA, of course! There are no other logical choices.

There will be no rugby brought into this house!

GAA is the one true sport and kilkenny hurlers the one true team. Anything else is truly wrong.

Morgase

You might have to be very very clear with the in-laws, Whispered.

I realised myself recently just how ingrained the Catholicism can be with the Irish Mammies - my brother and his partner are expecting their first child, and in front of them my mother commented on how "in her eyes the child will be a Catholic". She also made a comment on how she'd bring it off with her to get it baptised. Cue death glares from the parents-to-be and myself and her being told that that's not on - which were like water off a duck's back. I think there's going to be a few conversations to be had over the next year or so.

Anyway, the point of my ramblings is that you might have to really try hard to knock it into the heads of some people that this is something for you and your husband to decide, and that any interference, however well-meant, won't be tolerated.

bur

Whatever peoples views, being christened isn't a life sentence ffs, bit of perspective please.

Brian Shanahan

Whispered wrote: »

There will be no rugby brought into this house!

GAA is the one true sport and kilkenny hurlers the one true team. Anything else is truly wrong.

Humans, always bringing their illogical emotionality into their supporting decisions. When will they ever learn?

Brian Shanahan

bur wrote: »

Whatever peoples views, being christened isn't a life sentence ffs, bit of perspective please.

If it isn't such a big deal, why not leave it until the child is old enough to make the choice for themselves?


Oooh, wait....that would mean that virtually nobody would sign up for the nonsense make-believe, so you gotta get them early before they can decide for themselves. So yeah, it is a big fcuking deal for the church to baptise people before they can talk, the only ways they've got is deception and compulsion.

hdowney

my two points. I was baptised in a Catholic church, simply because the only folk my mammy knew at the time were Catholic. she left soon after. she wanted me to go to the local CoI primary, but as I wasn't protestant I couldn't so off to the local Catholic I went. mammy didn't want me participating in religion classes so I sat at the back drawing (late 80s early 90s). I didn't make communion( mammy took me to watch cos she thought I'd want to be with my friends on their day - I didnt I was in tears LONG STORY). By this time she was attending a Methodist church so I got transferred to the CoI for 4th clasa up. went to a hellhole of a CoI secondary for jc then back to a Catholic secondary for lc.
from that I have decided to do my best to not send any future child of mine near a faith school.

as to baptism. I know of even deeply religious parents who wanted to leave the child make their own decision when older so instead of baptism they had a blessing of sorts ) I'd say similar to the humanist mentioned above but in a church).

as others have said this is YOU and your HUSBANDS baby and no one else's. do what you believe best and the rellies will just have to suck it up.

looksee

A friend was telling me that when her grandchild was born she was pretty sure the child would not be baptised, so immediately after the birth she quietly baptised the child in the way that anyone can, by making the sign of the cross and saying that the child was baptised.

My reaction was to be a bit unimpressed, but then I thought, to anyone who doesn't believe, making a gesture like that was no more significant than, say, putting a coin in the child's hand 'for luck'. Even if you don't believe in 'luck', or indeed the advisability of putting coins in a baby's hand, if an old uncle does it, you are not going to madly object (though you would speedily remove the coins!). So what matter if a granny satisfies her own sense of obligation by engaging in a bit of superstition?

It is just possible, following that line of thought that you could say to relatives, look if you are concerned about his immortal soul, go ahead and lay baptise him, we just don't want it done by the RCC. If they object to that, then they are more concerned about appearances than the child's spiritual welfare. It is such impossible nonsense that really it does not matter. What matters is the parents' unwillingness to make promises they have no intention of keeping, and signing the child into an organisation they do not respect.