I feel ripped off by Irish Rail.

mooneyd

Hey everyone,
TLDR;
- Tax saver rail ticket user. (tickets are bought 1 month in advance)
- Paid €340 for a ticket but only used it for 3 days
- Ticket from new address is only €146 a month.
- Cannot get any form of refund or credit towards future tickets.


I have just moved from Clara to Celbridge to be closer to work and reduce my commute to work.
I am trying to have my ticket refunded in some way as it was only used for 3 days and I had to order it a month in advance through the tax saver scheme. So by the time I moved house I already had my ticket for November so I emailed Irish rail to see if I could exchange, refund or get credit for my €340 ticket.
I offered to buy a weekly ticket to cover the 3 days use I had and to have the current monthly ticket returned or credited towards tickets for my new commute.
But I have just received a generic response saying contact my tax saver account manager in work. Who was simply told no when it came to altering the ticket in any way. So not only do I have a ticket for €340 that is going to waste because I'm going to travel on a different line I need to buy another €146 ticket for this month.


Has any suggestions as to what I should do?

schemingbohemia

Re-write your post? I haven't a clue what you're on about.

Sheldons Brain

While he could have explained it better, the OP moved house and laments any convenient way to pay the higher fare just for the 3 days he is at his old house.

corktina

he already bought the ticket and wants to cash it back in a nd buy the cheaper one, and presumably they wont let him. (That's my take on it)

spurious

The OP really shouldn't have bought the €340 ticket for this month if he knew he was moving on the 3rd.

Just make sure next month's ticket is the cheaper one.

mooneyd

spurious wrote: »

The OP really shouldn't have bought the €340 ticket for this month if he knew he was moving on the 3rd.

Just make sure next month's ticket is the cheaper one.

You must order your Tax saver ticket by the 4th of the month previous. So with the current rental market its not as easy as you make it sound.

hfallada

mooneyd wrote: »

You must buy your Tax saver ticket one month in advance. With the current rental market its not as easy as you make it sound.

Thats hardly Irish rails fault. You arent entitled a refund due to change of mind. The company may offer a good will gesture. But I dont see why Irish rail should offer a good will gesture in this case.

ArmaniJeanss

Sounds like one of those hits you just have to accept when you move house/rentals. Similar things happen with utility contracts like broadband/cable.

mooneyd

But you can transfer 90% of your utilities to a new address.

L1011

mooneyd wrote: »

But you can transfer 90% of your utilities to a new address.

And? That isn't a comparable situation.

tenifan

If you wanted flexibility you shouldn't have bought a monthly ticket, op. it's your own fault. You're not entitled to a refund.

mooneyd

hfallada wrote: »

Thats hardly Irish rails fault. You arent entitled a refund due to change of mind. The company may offer a good will gesture. But I dont see why Irish rail should offer a good will gesture in this case.

If they didn't take 6 days to respond to my email about transferring the ticket then I could have had the ticket stopped before the 1st. If they need me to order my ticket almost a month in advance but don't respond in a prompt manner to requests when you need amend the order then I feel like it kind of is their fault.

L1011 wrote: »

And? That isn't a comparable situation.

How so? I pay for service, the option to provide the service is still there but I have now overpaid. The customer is credited for the difference.

Is it just me or does it seem like I'm the only one who is seeing the major issue here? im not talking about the difference between the price of someones coffee but an entire weeks wages for someone.

tenifan wrote: »

If you wanted flexibility you shouldn't have bought a monthly ticket, op. it's your own fault. You're not entitled to a refund.

Tax saver isn't available on a weekly/ daily basis my choice is monthly or pay for the year up front. And im very glad now I didnt pay the €3800 for that ticket. When it seems like everyones response is well thats your though luck.

L1011

mooneyd wrote: »

How so? I pay for service, the option to provide the service is still there but I have now overpaid. The customer is credited for the difference.

What utility do you pre-pay for specific amounts of consumption and get refunded if you don't use it?

mooneyd wrote: »

Is it just me or does it seem like I'm the only one who is seeing the major issue here? im not talking about the difference between the price of someones coffee but an entire weeks wages for someone.

You knew you were moving. You could have not bought a monthly at all for the month, or bought one for the new location and paid cash for the few days at the old.

Peppa Pig

Why is a new ticket needed? Can you not get on a later station or do you have to start your journey at the original station?

goingnowhere

Existing ticket is completely valid for the new journey

OP wants Irish Rail to refund them the difference.

Victor

mooneyd wrote: »

- Ticket from new address is only €146 a month.

Am I correct in saying you are travelling Celbridge-Heuston?

The Short Hop Zone rail only ticket is €142 from 1 November 2014. Other 2014 fares are here: http://www.railusers.ie/passenger_info/fare_calc_2014.php?station_from=HZLCH&station_to=HSTON&stage1=Submit+Query - 2015 fares will be uploaded soon.

So not only do I have a ticket for €340 that is going to waste because I'm going to travel on a different line I need to buy another €146 ticket for this month.

If you are travelling Celbridge-Heuston instead of Clara-Heuston, your ticket is still valid. Importantly, you have also used it several times and the ticket wasn't returned in time - see the terms and conditions here: http://www.taxsaver.ie/Commuters/Annual-Ticket-Conditions/Monthly-Ticket-Conditions/

You haven't actually lost out all that much - somewhere between €2 and €105.

Cash price Effective price doesn't pay income tax or USC Effective price – standard tax rate payer Effective price – marginal tax rate payer
The monthly from Clara to Heuston would have cost €340 (Taxsaver elegible - effective price €163-340). €340 €326.40 €234.60 €163.20
The weekly from Clara to Heuston would have cost €93 (not Taxsaver elegible - effective price €93). €93 €93.00 €93.00 €93.00
The monthly from Celbridge to Heuston will cost €142 (Taxsaver elegible - effective price €68-142). €142 €136.32 €97.98 €68.16
Amount lost €105.00 €97.08 €43.62 €2.04

cython

mooneyd wrote: »

You must order your Tax saver ticket by the 4th of the month previous. So with the current rental market its not as easy as you make it sound.

Unless things have changed since I last looked, this is not an Irish Rail policy, but one of your employer's . Irish Rail deadline is some time in the middle of the month. So if your employer imposes a much earlier deadline, talk to them about your woes.

petronius

Stockholm extensive metro €900 per year
Dublin Luas Bus rail €171 a month or discounted at €1710 per year (€1550 bus and luas only)

MOH

petronius wrote: »

Stockholm extensive metro €900 per year
Dublin Luas Bus rail €171 a month or discounted at €1710 per year (€1550 bus and luas only)

That's a bit unfair, you're not really comparing like with like.



Stockholm has a more frequent service and all night metros

petronius

That makes it even worse that they can be just under 1/2 the price we have to pay here!

Victor

petronius wrote: »

Stockholm extensive metro €900 per year
Dublin Luas Bus rail €171 a month or discounted at €1710 per year (€1550 bus and luas only)

That's €83.79 per month or €837.90 per year (€759.50 bus and Luas only) with Taxsaver. Admittedly Taxsaver availability is poor.

Losty Dublin

petronius wrote: »

That makes it even worse that they can be just under 1/2 the price we have to pay here!

But the passengers are paying for it, just indirectly. The below link is from 8 years ago but it gives an idea of the levels of public transport subventions at play in other European cities.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2006120600012#N5

schemingbohemia

Victor wrote: »

That's €83.79 per month or €837.90 per year (€759.50 bus and Luas only) with Taxsaver. Admittedly Taxsaver availability is poor.

Victor, I know what you're saying but Taxsaver is available to all employers and employees, the fact that some Employers choose not to make it available to their workforce when it would actually save them money is something that continues to flabber my gast!

MOH

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Victor, I know what you're saying but Taxsaver is available to all employers and employees, the fact that some Employers choose not to make it available to their workforce when it would actually save them money is something that continues to flabber my gast!

There's a lot of people in temporary positions or on short term contracts that can't avail of Taxsaver.
Why involve the employer at all? It just seems to impose an unnecessary level of admin and additional restrictions.

bk

Losty Dublin wrote: »

But the passengers are paying for it, just indirectly. The below link is from 8 years ago but it gives an idea of the levels of public transport subventions at play in other European cities.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2006120600012#N5

I'm sorry, but the numbers in that Dail Reply are pure fantasy and we all know it.

This figure only includes the direct subvention, it doesn't take into account the indirect subvention of the payments for the Free Travel Scheme. When you take into account the FTS payments, the government subvention to DB shuts up to around 50%, roughly inline with the European average.

All of this can easily be read in DB and CIEs annual reports.

And it also doesn't take into account all the things the government pays for including:

- All new buses for DB
- DB's bus depots
- RTPI poles
- Leap

just from DB as an example.

So lets not pretend public transport isn't also heavily subsidised by the government here in Ireland.

Qualitymark

Irish Rail prices generally are strange. A return ticket to Belfast or Cork is nearly €40 on the train, unless you buy it way before, but only €20 on the bus, even if you buy it the same day. (Online prices in both cases.)

bk

Qualitymark wrote: »

Irish Rail prices generally are strange. A return ticket to Belfast or Cork is nearly €40 on the train, unless you buy it way before, but only €20 on the bus, even if you buy it the same day. (Online prices in both cases.)

Actually even €40 would be a reduced, pre-booked, online fare.

The actual "normal" return fare to Cork is €75.70 day return or €82.60 open return!

And yes, you could pay these rates when booking online too! Just try booking a day return ticket to Cork for today online.

MOH

bk wrote: »

Actually even €40 would be a reduced, pre-booked, online fare.

The actual "normal" return fare to Cork is €75.70 day return or €82.60 open return!

And yes, you could pay these rates when booking online too! Just try booking a day return ticket to Cork for today online.

The thing that really bugs me is it's quite difficult to find out the "offline" fare online.
I've been caught out before where first time I made a particular journey I checked fares online but wasn't sure what time train I needed to get, so didn't book online. I couldn't find any obvious way of working out what the fare on the day would be Then when I paid at the ticket office it was massively more expensive than I was expecting. If they highlighted the walkup fare when you're booking online, or at least made it easier to find, would probably push more people towards booking in advance.

As it was, any time I made that journey again I got a bus.

schemingbohemia

MOH wrote: »

There's a lot of people in temporary positions or on short term contracts that can't avail of Taxsaver.
Why involve the employer at all? It just seems to impose an unnecessary level of admin and additional restrictions.

Because it's like a tax credit taken from gross wages, how else could it happen?

The employer generally pays up in one go and then takes the payment from the employee from each payslip, some will front-load the annual tickets and take them from the first few months.

Or are you suggesting that they should just give a notional tax credit for everyone who buys a monthly or annual ticket and reduce the prices accordingly? Never going to happen.

schemingbohemia

MOH wrote: »

The thing that really bugs me is it's quite difficult to find out the "offline" fare online.
I've been caught out before where first time I made a particular journey I checked fares online but wasn't sure what time train I needed to get, so didn't book online. I couldn't find any obvious way of working out what the fare on the day would be Then when I paid at the ticket office it was massively more expensive than I was expecting. If they highlighted the walkup fare when you're booking online, or at least made it easier to find, would probably push more people towards booking in advance.

As it was, any time I made that journey again I got a bus.

This wasn't difficult to find.
http://www.irishrail.ie/fares-and-tickets/dublin-cork

n97 mini

schemingbohemia wrote: »

This wasn't difficult to find.
http://www.irishrail.ie/fares-and-tickets/dublin-cork

Try find the fare for Waterford to Sligo.

MOH

schemingbohemia wrote: »

This wasn't difficult to find.
http://www.irishrail.ie/fares-and-tickets/dublin-cork

Fair enough, it seems to have improved.
That certainly wasn't available a couple of years ago.

It's still confusing.
How much is an open return from Heuston to any station before Portarlington?
If I look at the Galway page, if tells me to l look at the Cork page for shaded fares. But goes ahead and lists fares anyway. Yet the same fares on the Cork pages are different prices?


And since it's world usability day I'll point out that's an abysmal presentation of data.

Look at grid. Note letter. Scroll down through page to find letter.
At the very least, why not make the letter a link to the correct section.

Some pages show the Fare Calculator (still in Beta? Why? How difficult can it be?). Others don't.

LXFlyer

MOH wrote: »

Fair enough, it seems to have improved.
That certainly wasn't available a couple of years ago.

It's still confusing.
How much is an open return from Heuston to any station before Portarlington?
If I look at the Galway page, if tells me to l look at the Cork page for shaded fares. But goes ahead and lists fares anyway. Yet the same fares on the Cork pages are different prices?

And since it's world usability day I'll point out that's an abysmal presentation of data.

Look at grid. Note letter. Scroll down through page to find letter.
At the very least, why not make the letter a link to the correct section.

Some pages show the Fare Calculator (still in Beta? Why? How difficult can it be?). Others don't.

The amount of information about fares is vastly improved over what it was previously, and you can now get information about booking office fares for each line in the country.

Cross-routes aren't there, but the information for the vast majority of the journeys are.

The issue that you raise about Dublin-Portarlington fares arises because there are three fare tables for the pricing of booking office fares:

1) Express Routes:

• Dublin-Cork
• Dublin-Tralee
• Dublin-Limerick-Ennis (via Limerick Junction),
• Cork-Tralee
• Dublin-Dundalk

2) Economy 1 Routes:

• Dublin-Galway
• Dublin-Westport/Ballina
• Western Rail Corridor
• Cork-Western Rail Corridor
• Dublin-Sligo

3) Economy 2 Routes:

• Dublin-Waterford
• Nenagh Branch
• Waterford-Limerick Junction-Limerick/Dublin/Cork/Tralee via Clonmel
• Dublin-Rosslare

So in other words, that's why the Dublin/Galway fare table refers you to the Dublin/Cork page for the fares between Dublin and Portarlington - they are based on the Express fares table.

The reason those stations are listed at all in the Dublin-Galway table is for journeys from those stations to beyond Portarlington, but it might have been better to just leave those shaded squares blank perhaps in the Dublin/Galway table.

goingnowhere

Only true fare calculator

http://www.railusers.ie/passenger_info/fare_calc_2014.php
&
http://www.railusers.ie/passenger_info/fare_calc_2015.php

Qualitymark

goingnowhere wrote: »

Only true fare calculator

http://www.railusers.ie/passenger_info/fare_calc_2014.php
&
http://www.railusers.ie/passenger_info/fare_calc_2015.php

Doesn't list Belfast.

LXFlyer

Belfast is here:
http://www.irishrail.ie/fares-and-tickets/dublin-belfast

n97 mini

Bloody hell, €91 Waterford Sligo return. I used to do it for £10 return when I was in college in the 90s.

Qualitymark

n97 mini wrote: »

Bloody hell, €91 Waterford Sligo return. I used to do it for £10 return when I was in college in the 90s.

Prices are ballooning, but (to paraphrase Bertie) they're even balloonier in Irish Rail.

Victor

n97 mini wrote: »

Bloody hell, €91 Waterford Sligo return. I used to do it for £10 return when I was in college in the 90s.

Exaggeration or a miscalculated fare? In 1993 Cork-Dublin day return was about £20 (€25) for student.

n97 mini

Victor wrote: »

Exaggeration or a miscalculated fare? In 1993 Cork-Dublin day return was about £20 (€25) for student.

It was the student fare from Waterford to all destinations on the Sligo line. Iirc it applied on the Galway and Mayo lines as well. I availed of it from 89 to 94.

Vic_08

bk wrote: »

I'm sorry, but the numbers in that Dail Reply are pure fantasy and we all know it.

This figure only includes the direct subvention, it doesn't take into account the indirect subvention of the payments for the Free Travel Scheme. When you take into account the FTS payments, the government subvention to DB shuts up to around 50%, roughly inline with the European average.

How often do the same stupid arguments have to be refuted to posters on this forum?

the FTS payments are NOT a subvention. They are payments from the DSP for fares for free travel pass recipients who would otherwise be required to pay actual fares. A payment that after a funding freeze and continuing expansion even those in charge at the DSP admit is a very good deal for them and a bad one for the transport companies.

If the CIE companies are receiving subvention through this then Aircoach, Citylink and almost every other bus operator in the state are also receiving subvention.

end of the road

looking at this table.

1) Express Routes:

Dublin-Cork
Dublin-Tralee
Dublin-Limerick-Ennis (via Limerick Junction),
Cork-Tralee
Dublin-Dundalk


2) Economy 1 Routes:

Dublin-Galway
Dublin-Westport/Ballina
Western Rail Corridor
Cork-Western Rail Corridor
Dublin-Sligo


3) Economy 2 Routes:

Dublin-Waterford
Nenagh Branch
Waterford-Limerick Junction-Limerick/Dublin/Cork/Tralee via Clonmel
Dublin-Rosslare[/QUOTE]

i'd put

1. intercity.
dublin cork.
2. regional
dublin westport/ballina, dublin sligo, dublin rosslare, dublin tralee, nenagh branch
dublin waterford, waterford limerick, WRC, cork WRC, dublin galway, dublin limerick/ennis.
3. commuter
dublin droghida/dundalk. cork tralee? maybe even separate the dublin maynooth and dublin kildare commuter services to their own separate fare structure.

now this should be a bit better

Urethra Franklin

surely the best way for this is simply

1. intercity.
dublin cork, dublin galway, dublin limerick/ennis, dublin waterford, maybe even waterford limerick, WRC, and cork WRC.
2. regional
dublin westport/ballina, dublin sligo, dublin rosslare, dublin tralee, nenagh branch
3. commuter
dublin droghida/dundalk. cork tralee? maybe even separate the dublin maynooth and dublin kildare commuter services to their own separate fare structure.

to be honest the current way its done looks like the order in which IE like the routes they operate. waterford being at the bottom along with unsurprisingly rosslare rather then being up with galway westport and tralee doesn't convince me otherwise

The cork route has a train every hour, and last train out of Dublin is at nine. It's often made up of long, Mark IV sets which are a lot more comfortable than the 3 car ICR the Waterford line gets. Waterford line has a train every two to three hours, no clock face timetable, the last train is at half six, and you often have to wait in passing loops for the crossing train. I think it's only fair that the price is cheaper, therefore.

end of the road

Urethra Franklin wrote: »

The cork route has a train every hour, and last train out of Dublin is at nine. It's often made up of long, Mark IV sets which are a lot more comfortable than the 3 car ICR the Waterford line gets. Waterford line has a train every two to three hours, no clock face timetable, the last train is at half six, and you often have to wait in passing loops for the crossing train. I think it's only fair that the price is cheaper, therefore.

if the whole thing was based on price alone i'd agree. as its irish rail i'm not so sure, but then again when it comes to irish rail i'm as sinnical as you can get as to their motives. call it years of experience if you will. redoing the table now.