A discussion on the the taking and distribution of private images of oneself

skallywag

Folks,

There is a somewhat similar thread already over on TLL, but it focuses more on how such images should be handled once a relationship ends. I would like to take a step back from that, and focus more on the initial creation and consequent distribution of such images of oneself.

I have spent a sizeable chunk of my life working in the R&D side of electronic technology, and am naturally interested in how we then put this technology to use in our everyday lives. Although I find the the vast majority of uses positive and progressive, there is one particular trend which I simply cannot get my mind around, and that is the creation and distribution of private images of oneself.

Please don't get me wrong, I am in no way prudish etc, and have no problems per se with the creation and distribution of such material provided that one can guarantee that it remains private (that is, if one so wishes in the first place). This clearly cannot be the case though in the vast majority of instances, and once the image is distributed then you have effectively signed over the right to have it on the internet, forever. Any arguments along the lines of 'oh I thought the person that I sent them too would keep them private' etc are incredibly naive in my opinion. I fully agree that intentionally passing such material on to others is a very nasty thing to do, but I certainly still believe strongly that the core issue in play here is the initial creation and distribution.

This is a very powerful technology and everyone needs to use it responsibly and take responsibility for their own actions.

Opinions?

ancapailldorcha

Photos of an intimate nature are a gift in my opinion and as such should be erased when the relationship ends if for no other reason than it'd be highly disrespectful to a future partner to keep them.

skallywag

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Photos of an intimate nature are a gift in my opinion and as such should be erased when the relationship ends if for no other reason than it'd be highly disrespectful to a future partner to keep them.

I agree with you 100%.

But, I do not wish for this thread to take this direction i.e. this is exactly the topic of the thread over on TLL. I want to take a step back from that and have a discussion on the creation and distribution of this material in the first instance.

ancapailldorcha

skallywag wrote: »

I agree with you 100%.

But, I do not wish for this thread to take this direction i.e. this is exactly the topic of the thread over on TLL. I want to take a step back from that and have a discussion on the creation and distribution of this material in the first instance.

I think I misread your post.

Obviously, sending them to a second party risks their release into the internet from which there can be no return. A lot of people nowadays use online storage which has been proven somewhat insecure especially in the case of certain celebrities. One approach is to treat it as something akin to burglary. It's obviously not the victim's fault but there are certain precautions which ought to be taken. All I really use the cloud for is holiday snaps, cover letters and the like. Stuff I'd hate to lose.

The problem with suggesting precautions is that certain elements of the feminist community will accuse you of victim blaming which seems to be their go-to whinge these days. Ultimately, everyone is responsible for their own safety and privacy and the easiest way to avoid this is to refrain from creating such images.

Dial Hard

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The problem with suggesting precautions is that certain elements of the feminist community will accuse you of victim blaming which seems to be their go-to whinge these days. Ultimately, everyone is responsible for their own safety and privacy and the easiest way to avoid this is to refrain from creating such images.

The issue people (not just feminists) have with that attitude is that it says the problem is with the person who created the image and not the asshole who passed it on and to me that's a very odd way of looking at things. It's akin to saying "Well the easiest way to avoid being hit by a car is to refrain from ever leaving your house." An extreme example, yes, but both come from the same thought processes.

FactCheck

skallywag wrote: »

I certainly still believe strongly that the real fault lies with the original distributor.

Well, I disagree pretty strongly with this. I'm very sympathetic to most of what you wrote, but I think it was a mistake to include the line above if you don't want to debate "blame" or have a rehash of a similar thread - because it's fairly incendiary and lots of people won't move past it.

But anyway, I agree that the psychology and motivations around creating and sharing these images is pretty interesting, so let's stick with that.

This is all really interlinked IMO with some similar issues. The crux of talking about it and getting people to make genuinely informed decisions needs to come with teenagers, in proper, informative, non-judgemental sex education classes.

The problem, of course, is that programmes like this are thin on the ground (or lacking altogether) in Ireland. We can't even teach teenagers properly about contraception, intimate partner abuse, and sexuality. The odds of us managing to cover the ethics and implications of intimate photos are slim.

But let's pretend we live in a slightly more grown-up and functional society (let's all pretend to be Swedish!). I think the best way of persuading people that creating and sending intimate pictures is a bad idea is NOT to tell them horror stories that you can't trust anybody and oh my god, what if your other half turns out to be an abusive, manipulative monster who leaps at his/her first chance to shame you? The reality is that the vast majority of the population are fairly trustworthy and responsible and would never deliberately humiliate a current or former partner. Telling teenagers that they might is ineffective because a) you risk encouraging a gender war where you tell boys/girls that the other sex are manipulative bullies, which is not a healthy attitude to foster and b) they can plainly see that most people are not like that, in which case they will dismiss everything else you tell them as exaggerations and stupidity.

A better tactic I think is to emphasise the fundamental lack of security around any digital image. If Jennifer Lawrence and all her wealth and all her handlers can't keep her images secure, what hope do you have? Point out that phones get stolen. Or just borrowed - you might trust your other half, but could you trust their best friend, if they got hold of their phone, never to try to copy an image, either to humiliate you or just for the laugh?

This is also a good tactic because it ties in with another very serious issue that we all have only had to worry about in the past few years. The proliferation of camera phones and YouTube means that going out in public, we all now run the slim but genuinely quite frightening risk that some random event in our lives will "go viral" leading to our public humiliation. This is a good angle because it removes the whole judgemental sexual element - everybody goes out, most people drink, most people interact with strangers. The thought of being the next KPMG girl or that guy who walloped his head on the ice on the RTE news is pretty unsettling. And those aren't even that bad! Boards might have the integrity not to go after some stupid drunk teenager talking ****e, but Reddit, Twitter and the Irish Independent generally have no such scruples.

The final line is one of practicality. The reality is that many people are going to want to express themselves sexually this way. It's not the wisest course of action, but having one night stands is pretty unwise in a lot of respects too and people will just do it anyway. At a certain point, you have to respect the fact that lots of people will make somewhat foolish choices, and just try to offer up suggestions to minimise the potential downsides. (So the one night stand equivalent would be encouraging people to always carry barrier contraception, use at least two kinds of contraception, be careful where you go with strangers, try to have a flatmate around if you bring a stranger home, etc). The best defence for a leaked intimate photo is to never, ever include an identifying feature. Cut your head off the top. Don't include your face. Try to make the background vague. There are no shortage of boobs and dicks on the internet, some random blurry shot of yours is not going to go viral and ruin your life if there is no way to tell who you are.

Finally, you have to assess who you are as a person and how likely this is to actually be a problem for you. This is harder for teenagers than old folks like me, as they probably haven't decided what they want to do in life. What I mean is, if your life plan is to move to the big city and launch your rap career, or you intend to hop on a plane to Australia and work in a bar by the beach for the rest of your days, a random viral photo of you naked is unlikely to ruin your life. You will dust yourself off just fine from something like this. On the other hand, if your life plan is to move back home to Ballygobackwards and become the local primary school teacher or county councillor, then you will want to be considerably more careful about your image - and not just your naked blurry camera phone image.

There are no easy answers now though. We live in an age where everything is recordable and everything is shareable. The problems with that go way beyond naked pics. And if we think it's bad now, just wait five years until we're all wearing Google Glass (and equivalents).

skallywag

Dial Hard wrote: »

...the problem is with the person who created the image and not the asshole who passed it on...

I did not open this thread for it to go down this road, and I have pointed this out twice already. There is a perfectly on-topic thread over at TLL for you to post on, complete with your profanity, here is a link:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057308262

ancapailldorcha

Dial Hard wrote: »

The issue people (not just feminists) have with that attitude is that it says the problem is with the person who created the image and not the asshole who passed it on and to me that's a very odd way of looking at things. It's akin to saying "Well the easiest way to avoid being hit by a car is to refrain from ever leaving your house." An extreme example, yes, but both come from the same thought processes.

I phrased that badly. Of course the perpetrator is the one at fault. All I meant was that people should take certain precautions as the world isn't the way we'd like it to be and it's pragmatic to act accordingly. I should be able to go wherever I please night or day but there are areas where I would likely be assaulted should I do so. Therefore it is sensible to avoid such places at night.

skallywag

FactCheck wrote: »

Well, I disagree pretty strongly with this. I'm very sympathetic to most of what you wrote, but I think it was a mistake to include the line above if you don't want to debate "blame" or have a rehash of a similar thread - because it's fairly incendiary and lots of people won't move past it.

You're quite right, that was indeed a poor choice of language, the word 'fault' is not appropriate here, I will reword it.

Earl Turner

Dial Hard wrote: »

The issue people (not just feminists) have with that attitude is that it says the problem is with the person who created the image and not the asshole who passed it on and to me that's a very odd way of looking at things. It's akin to saying "Well the easiest way to avoid being hit by a car is to refrain from ever leaving your house." An extreme example, yes, but both come from the same thought processes.

The people who take send intimate pictures of themselves have to take some responsibility. Personally I think it's stupid to send these kind of pictures. Once sent you have no control over them and once they're online that's it.

And any woman who sends naked pictures of herself and expects the man to delete them once the relationship is over is being very naive.

skallywag

FactCheck wrote: »

But anyway, I agree that the psychology and motivations around creating and sharing these images is pretty interesting, so let's stick with that

It strikes me that the whole topic is getting more and more normalised as time has moved on. When the era of camera phones etc was imminent, there was much debate on the effect that it would have on society etc. The ability to create and so easily distribute such material was certainly put on the table, but more with a giggle than anything else, i.e. it was never really envisaged that this would really take off.

skallywag

skallywag wrote: »

I am in no way prudish etc, and have no problems per se with the creation and distribution of such material provided that one can guarantee that it remains private.

Which by implication means you do have a problem with it if one can not make such a guarantee. But the reality is that some people produce and distribute such material not only without making such guarantee - but intending the exact opposite.

The existence of web sites that are expressly designed for users to distribute images of themselves to a wider audience demonstrate this. And they clearly know that the second they hit "upload" that picture will be distributed widely.

The website Newbie Nudes is one I know of personally and - I am led to believe - is one of the better known and more successful examples of this.

You are basically right with your main point however - that anyone attempting to share these images privately under the expectation they will never be distributed - is likely being very naive.

If - unlike the people using sites like Newbie Nudes - your wish is that only select people will see such images then it is naive to do anything but retain them and show them to that person yourself but do not release hold on them.

My circle of friends has a monthly house party in my place - and during a few of them we toyed with the idea of making a full porn movie. Replete with story line and plot and sub-plot and all the arty things you do not normally associate with porn. Set in medieval times we have even reached the point of having a near complete script and having checked out some Irish rentable castles to use as sets (including one with a dungeon).

But we did discuss that - should we ever actually go ahead with it - the most trusted person in our group (me as it turns out) will retain the one and only sole copy of it - encoded and locked up in my safe - and no one will ever be allowed view it except anyone involved directly or indirectly in it's production.

But even then everyone knows the risks.

skallywag

Deleted User wrote: »

Which by implication means you do have a problem with it if one can not make such a guarantee. But the reality is that some people produce and distribute such material not only without making such guarantee - but intending the exact opposite

I certainly have no issue at all with anyone who either does not mind or actually enjoys the proliferation of such images. I've changed the wording to reflect that.

lazybones32

It's the personal responsibility of the person who takes the 'selfie' or allows their partner to take a nude or suggestive photo, imo.

I wouldn't allow anyone take a picture of me that was going to be stored on a cloud or sent via FB, twitter, etc;. Anything that is posted on the Interwebz becomes public property or the property of the host: everything posted here on Boards.ie is technically the property of Boards (aside from pics of copyright material obviously, etc.); everything written on Y!Answers belongs to them.

I've never destroyed or deleted any picture of an ex I have and I've no intention to either.

Galwayguy35

Earl Turner wrote: »

The people who take send intimate pictures of themselves have to take some responsibility. Personally I think it's stupid to send these kind of pictures. Once sent you have no control over them and once they're online that's it.

And any woman who sends naked pictures of herself and expects the man to delete them once the relationship is over is being very naive.

In fairness you can't say that every man will keep the pics or pass them around, I have taken pics of exes and they have done the same, when the relationship ended I deleted them and assume they did as well.

Earl Turner

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

In fairness you can't say that every man will keep the pics or pass them around, I have taken pics of exes and they have done the same, when the relationship ended I deleted them and assume they did as well.

You are a better man than me.

Galwayguy35

Earl Turner wrote: »

You are a better man than me.

It's a personal decision I guess for everyone to decide, I just don't see the point keeping them when a relationship is over.

KomradeBishop

As I said in TLL thread, most people think clicking 'delete' on an image, actually erases it - but it doesn't, the image stays around for a while (until something overwrites it - so potentially an extremely long time if you have a lot of free space), and is easily recovered.

So if you or your partner have ever taken such images on your phone, even if you deleted them straight after without sending (yes - that includes the 'outtakes'...), fair chance it's still there, unless it was a really long time ago or there's little free space.

The vast majority of people don't know how to keep an image secure, or know how to securely delete an image - i.e. they don't know how to be 'responsible' here - so it's just a bad idea both to ever take them, and especially to ever share them (is your partner good enough with computers, to not screw that up? are you?) - there are just too many innocent ways (such as losing your phone) for the image to be passed on.

Barely There

I am comfortable with any of my ex-partners using the many digital images of my erect throbbing cock I have bequeathed them with, in whatever way they deem most appropriate.

Wibbs

Barely There, from the charter: There is an expected standard of effort when posting in this forum. and There's nothing wrong with a bit of banter and having a laugh but please consider that a thread on 'penis size' or 'hairy back' may be a matter of great merriment for you but the original poster may really want some serious answers and discussion. You're banging right up against both, so maybe dial it back a bit? Cheers.