Very young girls wearing the hijab

Defender OF Faith

katydid wrote: »

As you rightly pointed out, there are many instances of inequality of women in Christian scripture; the difference is that most Christians don't take it literally, but contextualise it to the time in which it was written. If you can tell me that most Muslims contextualise their scripture in a similar way, and recognise this as not applying in the 21st century, then please tell me.

Islam is the same at all times and ages regardless of whether this is the 30th century or the 1st century people just need to follow Islam, if there's a dispute there are 4 schools of Islamic jurisprudence that deals with different interpretation of a said verse.
These instances you see of women inequality Islam is innocent of them, as I explained such cases occurs in societies due to the cultural norm of that specific society and not because of Islam.
The best case of this is honour killing, that has no basis in Islam. It was something the Arabs before Islam used to practice as they viewed having a female child would bring a shame to the family and killing her would restore their honour, the Quran described their evil practice by saying:

"And when the news of the birth of a female child is brought to any of them, his face become dark, and he is filled with inward grief!.
He hides himself from the people because of the evil that whereof he has been informed. Shall he keep her with dishonour or bury her in earth? certainly, evil is their decision"14:58-59

Islam came and put a stop to that, however in some part of the world today were its people claim Islam they still practice that these are the black sheep of society, they are found in every religion and I repeat and say that Islam should not be blamed for their action since it's clearly against what they are doing.

katydid wrote: »

Women in the west cover their breasts because it is a tradition that has existed for a long time, even before the Christian era. There is no religious prohibition on it.

And yet they still cover their breast why you tell me? because it's a tradition; making it appear that women in the west don't really care about their modesty or shame. However Islam cares deeply about a women modesty and shame, and hence orders the Hijab to be worn by her and that does not make her any less equal then a man, who does not have to do this.
Just like western men who do not cover their chest, are no less equal then western women that do cover their chest.

katydid wrote: »

You said "The verse goes on to explain the reason for seeking testimony from two women in place of the testimony of one man, by saying "...so that if one of them should make a mistake, the other could remind her" (2:282)." That is a clear admission that the testimony of a woman is not worth the same as that of a man, since it is not required of a man to have another man "to remind" him. If Islam does not regard the testimony of a woman to be of equal value to that of a woman, it clearly doesn't regard women as equal.

This mean that you have not really read past that point once you got what you needed however I might need to simplify stuff slightly.

The verse deals ONLYwith TRANSACTIONS -sorry for caps but it's important you get this across- and hence this is the only setting where this ruling applies. The relevant wording implies, that in general, transactions were not often matters of concern to women at that time. It also indicates that the actual witness would be one woman. As such her testimony is legally acceptable.

Lets think about it this logically & rationally now.
Lets say a single women witnessed a transaction, she would not need to worry about this again until the time she is called to testify, she would go home take care of her kids,husband and house she could get pregnant and go through her menstrual cycle several time.

The man is out there working consistently thinking about this transaction as he needs the money to feed his family, one year later the Judge calls the women to testify, however due to the busy nature of her life she could not remember exactly, the man hence loose the money he was always thinking about.

Just because you need someone to remind you it does not mean you are less equal then a him.
If you ask your Husband to remind you to buy the milk once you go shopping does that make you any equal then him? of course no you assumed the possibility of forgetting and the risk associated with and wanted extra assurance not to forget. Now just think about a transaction and how important is it and the risks associated with it since it's people hard earned money we are talking about here.

Islam understand the busy event and nature of a women's life and the possibility that she might forget about this transaction since after all looking after money is not a women job and hence said that a second women to remind the first is necessary if the women can remember then she is not needed.

katydid wrote: »

Christianity will also argue that they put women on a pedestal, and they will cite the Virgin Mary as an example. But in some branches of Christianity, this veneration of an ideal woman is contradicted by the treatment of women. The Roman Catholic church is a good example; Mary is idealised, but ordinary women are not granted equality within the denomination. But Roman Catholicism is one branch of Christianity, it is not representative of Christianity. Other Christian denominations treat women with total equality. What interpretation of Islam does?

Madam in Islam we do not put you only on a pedestal we put you on top of our head, a whole chapter in the Quran is called "the chapter of Women" and "The chapter of Mary" you mention that other Christian denomination treat women equally but why? because they disregard the part of the scriptures that say treat women as non-equal then men.
In Islam we don't need to do that as all interpretation of pure Islam meaning Islam without interference from cultural and social norms, treat women with equality.

~Except maybe Shiaa sect of Islam due to their "Nikah mut‘ah" whereby you can basically marry a women purely for sex simply a sex object, without the intention of having a real relationship or starting a family with her which is forbidden in Sunni Islam. the largest and main branch of Islam and the largest religious denomination for any religion in the world.

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Islam apply at all times and ages regardless of whether this is the 30th century or the 1st century people just need to follow Islam these instances you see of women inequality Islam is innocent of them, as I explained such cases occurs in societies due to the cultural norm of that specific society and not because of Islam.
The best case of this is honour killing, that has no basis in Islam. It was something the Arabs before Islam used to practice as they viewed having a female child would bring a shame to the family and killing her would restore their honour, the Quran described their evil practice by saying:

"And when the news of the birth of a female child is brought to any of them, his face become dark, and he is filled with inward grief!.
He hides himself from the people because of the evil that whereof he has been informed. Shall he keep her with dishonour or bury her in earth? certainly, evil is their decision"14:58-59

Islam came and put a stop to that, however in some part of the world today were its people claim Islam they still practice that these are the black sheep of society, they are found in every religion and I repeat and say that Islam should not be blamed for their action since it's clearly against what they are doing.


And yet they still cover their breast why you tell me? because it's a tradition; making it appear that women in the west don't really care about their modesty or shame. However Islam cares deeply about a women modesty and shame, and hence orders the Hijab to be worn by her and that does not make her any less equal then a man, who does not have to do this.
Just like western men who do not cover their chest, are no less equal then western women that do cover their chest.




This mean that you have not really read past that point once you got what you needed however I might need to simplify stuff slightly.

The verse deals ONLYwith TRANSACTIONS -sorry for caps but it's important you get this across- and hence this is the only setting where this ruling applies. The relevant wording implies, that in general, transactions were not often matters of concern to women at that time. It also indicates that the actual witness would be one woman. As such her testimony is legally acceptable.

Lets think about it this logically & rationally now.
Lets say a single women witnessed a transaction, she would not need to worry about this again until the time she is called to testify, she would go home take care of her kids,husband and house she could get pregnant and go through her menstrual cycle several time.

The man is out there working consistently thinking about this transaction as he needs the money to feed his family, one year later the Judge calls the women to testify, however due to the busy nature of her life she could not remember exactly, the man hence loose the money he was always thinking about.

Just because you need someone to remind you it does not mean you are less equal then a him.
Islam understand the busy event and nature of a women's life and the possibility that she might forget about this transaction since after all looking after money is not a women job and hence said that a second women to remind the first is necessary if the women can remember then she is not needed.


Madam in Islam we do not put you only on a pedestal we put you on top of our head, a whole chapter in the Quran is called "the chapter of Women" and "The chapter of Mary" you mention that other Christian denomination treat women equally but why? because they disregard the part of the scriptures that say treat women as non-equal then men.
In Islam we don't need to do that as all interpretation of pure Islam meaning Islam without interference from cultural and social norms, treat women with equality.

~Except maybe Shiaa sect of Islam due to their "Nikah mut‘ah" whereby you can basically marry a women purely for sex simply a sex object, without the intention of having a real relationship or starting a family with her which is forbidden in Sunni Islam. the largest and main branch of Islam and the largest religious denomination for any religion in the world.

You don't seem to grasp what I'm telling you; Christianity doesn't change at all, ever. Christianity is about a belief in a message sent by God, a message of total love, and an expectation that humans would imitate such love. That's all that matters. Other things are subservient to this message. So when one understands that women and men are equal, as we do in the West, then some of the practicalities of scripture are seen in a different way.

You say the verse about the woman's witness ONLY applies to transactions. It doesn't matter that it "only" applies to transactions; the point is that it inequivocally defines women as having a different status in terms of giving witness than men have. Your feeble attempt to explain about family and menstruation is just plain silly; either a woman's word is equal to a man's or it's not. It is a statement of women's inequality. It takes just one example of inequality to show what the attitude to women is.

You say you put women "on top of our head". So, tell me, why are women not religious leaders in mainstream Islam? If they are equal to men, if not above them, why are they banished from the main body of the mosque and have to pray separately? Why can't they worship with their "brothers", or if the men can't control themselves in the presence of women, why don't they share the main worship space, and take turns with the women to use it. How about the men taking the back room for a change?

And I'm still waiting for your explanation for the different rules about hijab. I think I've asked four times now...

Defender OF Faith

katydid wrote: »

You say you put women "on top of our head". So, tell me, why are women not religious leaders in mainstream Islam?

Why are women not leaders in mainstream Islam? I mean you are not a Muslim so you will obviously be asking this, but living in the west how much exposure to you really get into the Mainstream Islamic world to know this?

Let me tell you that there are plenty of women that are religious leaders in today Muslim world the following are just few examples:

Beginning with the greatest women in Islam next to Mary the virgin by the peace and blessing of Allah be upon her the Prophet wife Khadija and his daughter Fatima are highly reserved figure in Islam to this very day.

Then you have his wife Aisha that remains a position of authority when it comes to Hadith and knowledge regarding the hadith.

There are much more example from the prophet life and Islamic history about influential women there are women among Islam that have even lead military conquests but here are some quick examples from the modern world.
I note that many names will be unfamiliar since of course your not a Muslim and have no such interest in these women also the Wikipedia page that might be provided will be in Arabic as these women are only popular in the Muslim world and among Muslim scholars it's just proof that these people exist.

Um Saad the women with the shortest chain of recitation to the prophet she taught many of today Islam greatest scholars of Quran. http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A3%D9%85_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3%D8%B9%D8%AF

Biaan ali al tantawi another great scholar one that is directly related to Al al Tantawi one of the Islamic world golden writers and theologians.
She has a program on the most popular Islamic channel in the Muslim world namely Iqraa
here's a link to an episode of her program https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4M6DNGNwBQ

Dr. Rufaida Al.Habash and also the President of AlAndaluse Institute for Islamic Studies in Hama,Syria.
She also have a program on Iqraa channel and is a very influential women in the Muslim world here is a link to her website
http://alandaluse.net/en/

Hmm there's more but I cant remember their name at the moment since I dont follow their program that much but if your interested I can do some research and present some if your looking for some that are active in the west you have Dr. Rafeef Ziadeh and Dr. Manal Fakhoury.
[/QUOTE]

katydid wrote: »

[/B]If they are equal to men, if not above them, why are they banished from the main body of the mosque and have to pray separately? Why can't they worship with their "brothers", or if the men can't control themselves in the presence of women, why don't they share the main worship space, and take turns with the women to use it. How about the men taking the back room for a change?

Lol, I don't understand, how is women praying in a separate area considered inequality? I mean as a man I might say "why do we have to pray in a different area then women? why cannot we pray with them I demand equality!"
But if that really concerns you; both Muslim men and women pray together in Makkah the largest mosque in Islam and its holiest site.

Complaining that Mosques separation between men and women in prayer providing each with their own prayer space is like saying why is men and women locker room different?! we demand equality lets demand for a single gender locker room!

You will say obviously women do not feel comfortable changing with men similarly in prayer, go ask a Muslim women and she will tell you that she does not feel comfortable praying with men.
If this still distresses you however there are mosques were men and women pray together that you can visit.

katydid wrote: »

You say the verse about the woman's witness ONLY applies to transactions. It doesn't matter that it "only" applies to transactions; the point is that it inequivocally defines women as having a different status in terms of giving witness than men have. That is a statement of women's inequality. It takes just one example of inequality to show what the attitude to women is

You seem unwilling to go and dive below the surface. In the west men are legally discriminated against when it comes to Family laws and who keeps the children.If a women claim that she's assaulted by a man she will receive more attention then a man claiming assault by a women.
This is in its clear sense inequality against men, however once you scratch the surface and understand the reason it can be justified.

Read this reflectively again :

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

The relevant wording-of the verse- implies, that in general, transactions were not often matters of concern to women at that time. It also indicates that the actual witness would be one woman. As such her testimony is legally acceptable.

Just because you need someone to remind you it does not mean you are less equal then a him.
If you ask your Husband to remind you to buy the milk once you go shopping does that make you any equal then him? of course no you assumed the possibility of forgetting and the risk associated with and wanted extra assurance not to forget. Now just think about a transaction and how important is it and the risks associated with it since it's people hard earned money we are talking about here.

Lets think about it this logically & rationally now.
Lets say a single women witnessed a transaction, she would not need to worry about this again until the time she is called to testify, she would go home take care of her kids,husband and house she could get pregnant and go through her menstrual cycle several time.

The man is out there working consistently thinking about this transaction as he needs the money to feed his family, one year later the Judge calls the women to testify, however due to the busy nature of her life she could not remember exactly, the man hence loose the money he was always thinking about.

katydid wrote: »

And I'm still waiting for your explanation for the different rules about hijab. I think I've asked four times now...

I think I have answered you already read this again:

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

well let me ask you this first as it will help me in answering your question.

Why do women in the west where they have been equated with men cover their breasts and men don't if they are as the west claim equal?

katydid wrote: »

Women in the west cover their breasts because it is a tradition that has existed for a long time, even before the Christian era. There is no religious prohibition on it.

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

And yet they still cover their breast why you tell me? because it's a tradition; making it appear that women in the west don't really care about their modesty or shame. However Islam cares deeply about a women modesty and shame, and hence orders the Hijab to be worn by her and that does not make her any less equal then a man, who does not have to do this.
Just like western men who do not cover their chest, are no less equal then western women that do cover their chest.

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Why are women not leaders in mainstream Islam? I mean you are not a Muslim so you will obviously be asking this, but living in the west how much exposure to you really get into the Mainstream Islamic world to know this?

Let me tell you that there are plenty of women that are religious leaders in today Muslim world the following are just few examples:

Beginning with the greatest women in Islam next to Mary the virgin by the peace and blessing of Allah be upon her the Prophet wife Khadija and his daughter Fatima are highly reserved figure in Islam to this very day.

Then you have his wife Aisha that remains a position of authority when it comes to Hadith and knowledge regarding the hadith.

There are much more example from the prophet life and Islamic history about influential women there are women among Islam that have even lead military conquests but here are some quick examples from the modern world.
I note that many names will be unfamiliar since of course your not a Muslim and have no such interest in these women also the Wikipedia page that might be provided will be in Arabic as these women are only popular in the Muslim world and among Muslim scholars it's just proof that these people exist.

Um Saad the women with the shortest chain of recitation to the prophet she taught many of today Islam greatest scholars of Quran. http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A3%D9%85_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3%D8%B9%D8%AF

Biaan ali al tantawi another great scholar one that is directly related to Al al Tantawi one of the Islamic world golden writers and theologians.
She has a program on the most popular Islamic channel in the Muslim world namely Iqraa
here's a link to an episode of her program https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4M6DNGNwBQ

Dr. Rufaida Al.Habash and also the President of AlAndaluse Institute for Islamic Studies in Hama,Syria.
She also have a program on Iqraa channel and is a very influential women in the Muslim world here is a link to her website
http://alandaluse.net/en/

Hmm there's more but I cant remember their name at the moment since I dont follow their program that much but if your interested I can do some research and present some if your looking for some that are active in the west you have Dr. Rafeef Ziadeh and Dr. Manal Fakhoury.

Lol, I don't understand, how is women praying in a separate area considered inequality? I mean as a man I might say "why do we have to pray in a different area then women? why cannot we pray with them I demand equality!"
But if that really concerns you; both Muslim men and women pray together in Makkah the largest mosque in Islam and its holiest site.

Complaining that Mosques separation between men and women in prayer providing each with their own prayer space is like saying why is men and women locker room different?! we demand equality lets demand for a single gender locker room!

You will say obviously women do not feel comfortable changing with men similarly in prayer, go ask a Muslim women and she will tell you that she does not feel comfortable praying with men.
If this still distresses you however there are mosques were men and women pray together that you can visit.




You seem unwilling to go and dive below the surface. In the west men are legally discriminated against when it comes to Family laws and who keeps the children.If a women claim that she's assaulted by a man she will receive more attention then a man claiming assault by a women.
This is in its clear sense inequality against men, however once you scratch the surface and understand the reason it can be justified.

Read this reflectively again :




I think I have answered you already read this again:[/QUOTE]
Women are so rare as religious leaders in Islam that you can actually quote them by name. That says it all. In my church, probably half of the priests are women. How many mosques in any Islamic tradition have women leaders, leading prayers for men and women?

Women praying in a separate area is inequality, when the men occupy the main praying area and the women are relegated to a different room or gallery. Even if Muslim men can't control themselves in the presence of women, if they regarded women as equal they would share the main part of the mosque with them. But praying is not the same as being in a locker room; prayer is communion with God, and God, as you keep saying, makes no difference between men and women. So why can't men and women pray together? It doesn't involves stripping off your clothes...why would men and women not feel comfortable sharing their worship of God? That is truly bizarre.

You have not explained why a man doesn't have to cover himself in the same way as a woman. I find men's chests very attractive, and I love curly haired men. So in order to save women like getting excited, should a Muslim man not cover his chest and his hair?

Spirogyra

The policy of the apartheid regime in South Africa was 'separate but equal', the world didn't buy it....

Defender OF Faith

katydid wrote: »

Women praying in a separate area is inequality, when the men occupy the main praying area and the women are relegated to a different room or gallery. Even if Muslim men can't control themselves in the presence of women, if they regarded women as equal they would share the main part of the mosque with them. But praying is not the same as being in a locker room; prayer is communion with God, and God, as you keep saying, makes no difference between men and women. So why can't men and women pray together? It doesn't involves stripping off your clothes...why would men and women not feel comfortable sharing their worship of God? That is truly bizarre.

Who said women don't pray in the "Main area" what exactly is the main area in your definition? just because men pray in a specific area does not make it main. You also have to understand that it's a man obligation to pray in the mosque as he's ordered by God to do so. However it it's not an obligation for the women, whether she wants to pray in the mosque or at home is up to her as unlike the man a women might find trouble in visiting the mosque 5 times a day daily to pray due to taking care of the house,kids menstrual cycle or what ever reason she might have.

Go visit a mosque and have a look at the women section and ask the women their what they think, that's the only way you will get a satisfying answer I suggest the ICCI in Dublin they are very welcoming of non-Muslims in fact any mosque is it's just that it's the largest Mosque in Ireland so far.

katydid wrote: »

Women are so rare as religious leaders in Islam that you can actually quote them by name. That says it all. In my church, probably half of the priests are women. How many mosques in any Islamic tradition have women leaders, leading prayers for men and women?

I don't know what do you mean, what do you want me to do instead? take you in a tour to the Muslim world for you to see every women leader. I mean to begin with your not a Muslim so of course you will not know of any Muslim women as leaders you are saying this in a very subjective way.
Also if you asked about men leader in the Muslim world I would have to quote them by name as well.

katydid wrote: »

You have not explained why a man doesn't have to cover himself in the same way as a woman. I find men's chests very attractive, and I love curly haired men. So in order to save women like getting excited, should a Muslim man not cover his chest and his hair?

This is the 3rd time for me reposting this I think I have already answered your question read:

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

well let me ask you this first as it will help me in answering your question.

Why do women in the west where they have been equated with men cover their breasts and men don't if they are as the west claim equal?

katydid wrote: »

Women in the west cover their breasts because it is a tradition that has existed for a long time, even before the Christian era. There is no religious prohibition on it.

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

And yet they still cover their breast why you tell me? because it's a tradition; making it appear that women in the west don't really care about their modesty or shame. However Islam cares deeply about a women modesty and shame, and hence orders the Hijab to be worn by her and that does not make her any less equal then a man, who does not have to do this.
Just like western men who do not cover their chest, are no less equal then western women that do cover their chest.

Tell me what does not make sense about this answer?

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Who said women don't pray in the "Main area" what exactly is the main area in your definition? just because men pray in a specific area does not make it main. You also have to understand that it's a man obligation to pray in the mosque as he's ordered by God to do so. However it it's not an obligation for the women, whether she wants to pray in the mosque or at home is up to her as unlike the man a women might find trouble in visiting the mosque 5 times a day daily to pray due to taking care of the house,kids menstrual cycle or what ever reason she might have.

Go visit a mosque and have a look at the women section and ask the women their what they think, that's the only way you will get a satisfying answer I suggest the ICCI in Dublin they are very welcoming of non-Muslims in fact any mosque is it's just that it's the largest Mosque in Ireland so far.


I don't know what do you mean, what do you want me to do instead? take you in a tour to the Muslim world for you to see every women leader. I mean to begin with your not a Muslim so of course you will not know of any Muslim women as leaders you are saying this in a very subjective way.
Also if you asked about men leader in the Muslim world I would have to quote them by name as well.


This is the 3rd time for me reposting this I think I have already answered your question read:






Tell me what does not make sense about this answer?

As you said, there are some mosques where men and women pray together, but many where the women are in a gallery or a side room, while the men occupy the larger area. Why is that?

You say men are obliged to pray, but women aren't. Again, inequality. Why would you "oblige" people to pray in a particular place, anyway? Prayer is a privilege, not a duty. It is something every person, male or female, old or young, should want to do, anywhere or anytime. Not do because they have to. I think it's sad that Muslims feel prayer to be an obligation.

You seem obsessed with women's menstruation. What on earth has that got to do with prayer? What has taking care of children got to do with it? Are women the only people capable of taking care of children? I can understand where all this stuff originates; like the Bible, these things were written in a different time. But it's 2014. Women are not tied to the kitchen or to children; men and women share housework and childcare. And, believe it or not, menstruating women are not considered by society as "unclean".

What would be the point of talking to women in a "women's section" of a mosque? Those women have accepted their inequality. If they hadn't, they would be praying alongside their so-called "brothers"...

No, I don't want you to introduce me to every woman leader. But you can tell me which branches of Islam have as many women leaders as men leaders. The fact that you were able to name women leaders means they are few and far between. Just answer a simple question; are there branches of Islam where women leaders would be as acceptable and as commonplace as men leaders?

Defender OF Faith

katydid wrote: »

As you said, there are some mosques where men and women pray together, but many where the women are in a gallery or a side room, while the men occupy the larger area. Why is that?

You say men are obliged to pray, but women aren't. Again, inequality. Why would you "oblige" people to pray in a particular place, anyway? Prayer is a privilege, not a duty. It is something every person, male or female, old or young, should want to do, anywhere or anytime. Not do because they have to. I think it's sad that Muslims feel prayer to be an obligation.

Why men occupy a larger area? because more men attended the congregation then women, if you attend the mosque during the dawn prayer(6AM) and Night prayer (7PM) that are usually no women present.

You misunderstood something here about prayer and obligation, I don't think you know anything about Islam at all so I will give you a basic introduction:

the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) say:

Islam has been built on five [pillars]: testifying that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, performing the prayers, paying the Zakah, making the pilgrimage to the House, and fasting in Ramadan.

These are the Pillars of Islam, meaning you cannot become a true Muslim unless you do all of them together, Islam is not like Christianity were you can interpret the text and worship God as you like. Muslim worship God the way he wants us to worship him and these 5 pillars are the foundation of Islam.

The 5 daily prayers are the most important Pillar in Islam. In the day of resurrection it's the first thing a Muslim will be asked about whether he performed them well or not.

These prayers are an obligation to every Muslim men and women alike.
Men are obliged where possible to prayer these 5 prayer in congregation not necessarily a mosque but pray with a group as the prophet of Islam have said:

The Holy Prophet has also stated: “It better to join another person and pray than to pray alone and it is more superior in the company of two men and the bigger the congregation the more liked it is by Allah.”
(Abu Dawûd)

Why is the congregation prayer so Important in Islam? to meet and connect with your brothers and spread the spirit of brotherhood as the prophet have said:

The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “The example of the believers in their affection, mercy, and compassion for each other is that of a body. When any limb aches, the whole body reacts with sleeplessness and fever.”

Regarding the Women prayer the Prophet have Cleary said:

the Prophet (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him). He said: "Do not prevent your women from going to the mosque, even though their houses are better for them." (Reported by Abu Dawud)

But the fact that praying at home is preferable does not mean that that women are not permitted to go to the mosque.

This is why Men usually take the largest area in the mosque because much more men will attend the prayer then women.

Finally regarding your query with prayer being a privilege and not a duty your confusing your Christian prayer where you kneel and ask God for his help on your knees with the Muslim prayer. This in Islam is called supplication rather then prayer or Dua.

Salat or prayer is the practice of the 5 daily prayer I just explained as opposed to Dua which is the Arabic for supplication. Supplication is of paramount importance in Islam. The benefits of supplication are immense as are its virtues, God says in the Quran:


And when My servants ask you, [O Muhammad], concerning Me - indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to Me [by obedience] and believe in Me that they may be [rightly] guided. (2:186)

“And your Lord said: Supplicate to Me, I shall answer you. Indeed, those who are too haughty to worship Me shall enter Hell in humiliation.” [Sûrah Ghâfir: 60

Supplication in Islam is a privilege and the prophet have said:

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “No one beseeches Allah in supplication without Allah either giving him what he asks for or preventing him from being afflicted with a harm equivalent to it in magnitude, as long as he does not supplicate beseeching something sinful or the breaking of blood ties.” [Sunan al-Tirmidhî (3381)

I have also came across this video that might gives you an insight into what a mosque looks like from the inside and a general idea about mosques in Islam, encase you are unable to visit one yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzOMp4DYTYs&feature=youtu.be

Defender OF Faith

I Divided my replay into two section as the latter needed some explanation in its own here is the second section. I hope that you read both carefully when you find the time ~Thanks

katydid wrote: »

you seem obsessed with women's menstruation. What on earth has that got to do with prayer?

A Muslim women is given a break from prayer the greatest Pillar of Islam during her menstruation as Islam understand the hormonal, physiological and mood changes she undergo during this period.

katydid wrote: »

But you can tell me which branches of Islam have as many women leaders as men leaders. The fact that you were able to name women leaders means they are few and far between.?

I don't think you really understand the ridiculousness of what your saying here. You are saying that because I can name women leader they are a minority, well tell me what form of identification do you want then? their pictures, passport or what? as I apologise because I don't understand your point exactly.
Am able to name Men leader just like am capable of naming women leader does that mean men leader are a minority just because I can name them?

katydid wrote: »

Just answer a simple question; are there branches of Islam where women leaders would be as acceptable and as commonplace as men leaders?

I am sorry but I cant answer this question probably as my knowledge does not extend to the different branches of Islam and the rules each of them have as the prophet have said:

the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Jews were divided into seventy-one or seventy-two sects, and the Christians were divided into seventy-one or seventy-two sects, and . By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, my Ummah will be divided into seventy-three sects, one of which will be in Paradise and seventy-two will be in the Fire." It was said, O Messenger of Allaah, who are they? He said, "Al-Jamaa’ah." This was narrated by Abu Dawood

There for I cannot tell you what the other 72 sects say I am a follower of Sunni Islam is the largest branch of Islam; referred to in Arabic as ahl as-sunnah wa l-jamāʻah.Sunni Islam is the world's second largest religious body (after Christianity)and the largest religious denomination for any religion in the world.

In accordance with ahl as-sunnah wa l-jamāʻah-Sunni Islam- women leaders would be as acceptable and as commonplace as men leaders

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

I Divided my replay into two section as the latter needed some explanation in its own here is the second section. I hope that you read both carefully when you find the time ~Thanks



A Muslim women is given a break from prayer the greatest Pillar of Islam during her menstruation as Islam understand the hormonal, physiological and mood changes she undergo during this period.


I don't think you really understand the ridiculousness of what your saying here. You are saying that because I can name women leader they are a minority, well tell me what form of identification do you want then? their pictures, passport or what? as I apologise because I don't understand your point exactly.
Am able to name Men leader just like am capable of naming women leader does that mean men leader are a minority just because I can name them?



I am sorry but I cant answer this question probably as my knowledge does not extend to the different branches of Islam and the rules each of them have as the prophet have said:

the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Jews were divided into seventy-one or seventy-two sects, and the Christians were divided into seventy-one or seventy-two sects, and . By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, my Ummah will be divided into seventy-three sects, one of which will be in Paradise and seventy-two will be in the Fire." It was said, O Messenger of Allaah, who are they? He said, "Al-Jamaa’ah." This was narrated by Abu Dawood

There for I cannot tell you what the other 72 sects say I am a follower of Sunni Islam is the largest branch of Islam; referred to in Arabic as ahl as-sunnah wa l-jamāʻah.Sunni Islam is the world's second largest religious body (after Christianity)and the largest religious denomination for any religion in the world.

In accordance with ahl as-sunnah wa l-jamāʻah-Sunni Islam- women leaders would be as acceptable and as commonplace as men leaders

What on earth has menstruation got to do with a person's ability to conduct business or pray? That is absolutely ridiculous. I can understand people in the past having such ideas, but to assume that menstruation, a perfectly natural part of life, is a problem for women is ridiculous in this day and age. SOME women find they have a problem, but they still carry on and function as normal. MOST women have no problem whatsoever. And if it's not a problem for women, why is it a problem for men?

I don't want any naming or identification of women leaders. I just want you to answer a simple question; what branch of Islam has as many women leaders as men leaders? It's not a trick question. You say that in Sunni Islam women WOULD be as acceptable and as commonplace as men; WOULD is irrelevant. I'm asking in what branch ARE they as acceptable and commonplace. And I don't mean for leading women in prayers, I mean of leaders of everybody, male and female. The fact that you can't answer the question is itself an answer - you don't know of any, because no such thing exists.

Defender OF Faith

I can see we are reaching a Climax with this small chat we were having lately as am writing less and less I hope this is a good sign though!

katydid wrote: »

What on earth has menstruation got to do with a person's ability to conduct business or pray? That is absolutely ridiculous. I can understand people in the past having such ideas, but to assume that menstruation, a perfectly natural part of life, is a problem for women is ridiculous in this day and age. SOME women find they have a problem, but they still carry on and function as normal. MOST women have no problem whatsoever. And if it's not a problem for women, why is it a problem for men?

I never said it was a problem, it's as you have said a natural part of life, I guess I simply referred to it to much when I was taking about women in general for you to conclude that.

katydid wrote: »

I don't want any naming or identification of women leaders. I just want you to answer a simple question; what branch of Islam has as many women leaders as men leaders? It's not a trick question. You say that in Sunni Islam women WOULD be as acceptable and as commonplace as men; WOULD is irrelevant. I'm asking in what branch ARE they as acceptable and commonplace. And I don't mean for leading women in prayers, I mean of leaders of everybody, male and female. The fact that you can't answer the question is itself an answer - you don't know of any, because no such thing exists.

I blame my poor English for this, as I used "Would" thinking that, it being the past tense of "WILL" can be used for conformation, however I forgot that it can also be used when referring to a possible situation.

Let me correct that. Women ARE accepted as leaders in Islam. one of the bravest soldiers among the history of Islam was a women by the name of Nusaybah bint Ka'b, a women every Muslim holds to a very high regards.

The bravery of this women should be taught in western universities today. As an early convert to Islam she participated in the battle of Uhud, were women role involved bringing water to the soldiers.
Nusaybah entered the battle, carrying a sword and shield, once the Muslims were being defeated and began to retreat. Her skill with the sword in the battle of Uhud astonished those who saw her. The Prophet said that in whichever direction he turned in the battlefield he could see her defending and protecting him.
When her son got wounded in the battle, she bandaged his arm and told him not to lose courage but continue with his attack on the enemy.

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) smiled when he saw the heroism and courage of both mother and son, and said,
'From where can anyone get courage like you, O Umm 'Umarah?'


I found a nice site that list a number of influential Muslim Women leaders that you might find interesting:
http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/Muslim_Leaders.htm

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

I can see we are reaching a Climax with this small chat we were having lately as am writing less and less I hope this is a good sign though!


I never said it was a problem, it's as you have said a natural part of life, I guess I simply referred to it to much when I was taking about women in general for you to conclude that.


I blame my poor English for this, as I used "Would" thinking that, it being the past tense of "WILL" can be used for conformation, however I forgot that it can also be used when referring to a possible situation.

Let me correct that. Women ARE accepted as leaders in Islam. one of the bravest soldiers among the history of Islam was a women by the name of Nusaybah bint Ka'b, a women every Muslim holds to a very high regards.

The bravery of this women should be taught in western universities today. As an early convert to Islam she participated in the battle of Uhud, were women role involved bringing water to the soldiers.
Nusaybah entered the battle, carrying a sword and shield, once the Muslims were being defeated and began to retreat. Her skill with the sword in the battle of Uhud astonished those who saw her. The Prophet said that in whichever direction he turned in the battlefield he could see her defending and protecting him.
When her son got wounded in the battle, she bandaged his arm and told him not to lose courage but continue with his attack on the enemy.

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) smiled when he saw the heroism and courage of both mother and son, and said,
'From where can anyone get courage like you, O Umm 'Umarah?'


I found a nice site that list a number of influential Muslim Women leaders that you might find interesting:
http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/Muslim_Leaders.htm

A good sign or a bad sign...not sure :-)

Your English is fine. Have I misunderstood? Are you saying that in Sunni Islam it is commonplace for women to lead worship?

I don't really understand why you're telling me about famous warriors and the like from history. I'm talking about today. 2014. I'm talking about ordinary situations in mosques in Ireland or Saudi Arabia or wherever - are women leading prayer for their sisters and brothers, teaching them about Islam and helping them spiritually. That is the kind of leader I'm talking about.

You haven't addressed my points about your defence of women not being required to pray in the same way as men. I pointed out that in 2014, notions like looking after children, or menstruation are rather outdated, and can hardly be used as an excuse to treat women differently.

katydid

I found this message from Defender of Faith in my email, but can't find it here, so I'm going to cite it here, and reply...

"It seems that you are really interested in leadership, which is an issue some Muslim women do not bother with, simply because not everyone would like to bear the responsibilities of a leader, I wont be surprised if your Michelle Obama asking me these questions!

Now however since you made your definition of a leader clear, I might be able to answer more appropriately in a way you will hopefully understand.

A women leader in Islam as I understand from what you are saying is someone who:
1)Lead the prayer for both men and women.
2)Teach both men and women about Islam.
3)Help both men and women spiritually.

Number 2 and number 3 are a definite yes, absolutely and there's nothing wrong from an Islamic prospective in them doing so however certain tribes ,laws and social norm might stand in their way but it's important to emphasis such factors have nothing to do with Islam and in a official Islamic state(am sure ISIS come to mind with this but I can assure you their is nothing Islamic about Isis and I hope I don't need to explain why) they have the full right to do such activities.

Regarding number one however this is where you might not like the answer, before I begin I would like to remind you with what I have said earlier, that
God has singled out men for some virtues and rulings, and He has singled out women for other virtues and rulings.

It is not permissible for any man to wish for that which has been granted to women only, nor is it permissible for any woman to wish for that which has been granted to men.
This kind of wishing is tantamount to objecting to the laws and rulings of God.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And wish not for the things in which Allaah has made some of you to excel others. For men there is reward for what they have earned, (and likewise) for women there is reward for what they have earned, and ask Allaah of His Bounty. Surely, Allaah is Ever All‑Knower of everything”
[al-Nisa’ 4:32]

An Imam of a mosque that leaders the congregation on the 5 daily prayer is a job he's paid to do and performs along with other duties he's responsible for as well since I have previously mentioned that the prophet have said:
The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“Do not prevent your women from attending the mosques, although their houses are better for them.”

This naturally mean that a women attends the mosque far less then a man, who's obliged to do so; hence why it's the obligation of a man to lead men in the prayer. The down prayer for example( at 6am) may have 10-15 men and usually not a women in sight, for this reason it's the responsibility of a Man to lead other men and if present women in prayer.

A women may of course lead other women in prayer."

Some Muslim women don't bother with religious leadership, likewise some Muslim men. But some people have a gift for or calling for leadership - in Islam, as in some Christian denominations, men can fulfill their calling to leadership, while women can't. So please don't pretend that women are considered as equal. They have the same feelings, the same gifts, the same things to offer other people, but because they don't have male genitals, their personal skills and qualities don't matter.

It's the same in politics and many other walks of life. Michelle Obama may have no aspirations to leadership, but Hilary Clinton does. Different people, different personalities, different aspirations.

So, getting back to the issue of religious leadership in Islam. You say that it's acceptable for women to teach and give spiritual advice to men and women. Does this regularly happen in Islam?

And as to the first one, nothing you say explains why women can't lead men and women in prayer. Not all women have responsibilities that prevent them from attending and leading prayer, and these days men share such family responsibilities, if they have respect for their wives. Women work at all sorts of jobs; there is no reason why, on practical reasons, a woman couldn't be an employee of a mosque, especially if she has a husband who respects her and shares domestic responsibility with her. Or maybe she has no husband...

Where is the scriptural prohibition on women leading prayer as a full time imam? The scripture you cite is very vague and full of qualifications. It might have made sense fifteen hundred years ago, but as I keep reminding you, this is 2014.

Defender OF Faith

Yes I have written that answer but deleted it after ward,because I felt I needed to research some aspects again, I have no idea how did it get to you, regardless here is my replay:

katydid wrote: »

men can fulfill their calling to leadership, while women can't. So please don't pretend that women are considered as equal.

Did you read my answer well?

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

"Now however since you made your definition of a leader clear, I might be able to answer more appropriately in a way you will hopefully understand.

A women leader in Islam as I understand from what you are saying is someone who:
1)Lead the prayer for both men and women.
2)Teach both men and women about Islam.
3)Help both men and women spiritually.

Number 2 and number 3 are a definite yes, absolutely and there's nothing wrong from an Islamic prospective in them doing so however certain tribes ,laws and social norm might stand in their way but it's important to emphasis such factors have nothing to do with Islam and in a official Islamic state they have the full right to do such activities.

Hence the full activities of leadership that concerns you as a non-Muslim can be performed by a women.

Leadership in the 5 daily Muslim prayer is something Islam blessed the man with, this doesn't reduce the rights of the Muslim women to lead in any area she like.
Also if to this point you have no idea of how the 5 daily prayers are formed a muslim brother has made this excellent video to non-Muslims about how the Muslim pray:

Prayer is something between you and God, Islam is the only religion that gave women their full rights, and just as Islam blessed the women with rights 3 times that of the man when it comes to motherhood, Islam blessed the man with leadership when it comes to the 5 daily prayer. A Muslim man will not wish for that which is granted to a women and a Muslim women will not wish for that wish is granted to the man.

Both will submit to the will of God our creator that knows what's best for us, and since in Islam we believe that the Quran is 100% the word of God and that Muhammed is his final prophet and messenger, the rules in Islam comes with absolute justice to both men and women and for the benefit of humanity.

"The only statement of the [true] believers when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them is that they say, "We hear and we obey." And those are the successful."24:51

Islam is a religion about God and the worship of god
"Say (O Muhammed): verily my prayer, my sacrifice, my living, and my dying are for Allah the Lord of mankind. He has no partner. And of this I have been commanded, and I am the first of the Muslims"
(Chapter 7 162-163)
Muslim lead their life the way God and his prophet want us to lead it from the way we eat, enter the toilet speak and sleep even our private affairs with our wives, Islam present its guidance with regard to every single aspect of life.
What is funny that its always the non-Muslim that claim that there is no equality between men and women in Islam as if they know more then the Muslim women herself, that's why you don't hear these complaints from Muslim women because they know such non-sense does not exist in the essence of Islam.

"I found the truth that Islam treat women and men equally. In Islam, women have their right to vote in year 600. Men and Women dressed in a decent way. They are prohibited to tease each other. Indeed, the women need to elongate their dresses."
Kristiane Backer German television presenter, television journalist and author and a revert to islam

katydid wrote: »

And as to the first one, nothing you say explains why women can't lead men and women in prayer.

The issue of whether women can lead men in prayer has been a topic of discussion in Islam as their is no verse in the quran that says she cant, but there's a general consensus among the scholars of the Muslim deriving their ruling from various Hadith and incident in the prophet life that it's not permissible for a women to lead men in their prayer, but their is also a general consensus that women can leader the prayer of other women.

katydid wrote: »

So, getting back to the issue of religious leadership in Islam. You say that it's acceptable for women to teach and give spiritual advice to men and women. Does this regularly happen in Islam?

Did you not see the list I linked you? yes it's common.

Btw I didn't mean it that you had no inspiration of becoming a leader when I mentioned Michelle quite the opposite actually, since I think Michelle is quite a leader that's why i mentioned her, because I assumed from you asking all these matter with regard to women leadership, you have some sort of leadership role in your life that you think such role would not have been granted to a Muslim women.

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Yes I have written that answer but deleted it after ward,because I felt I needed to research some aspects again, I have no idea how did it get to you, regardless here is my replay:


ivities of leadership that concerns you as a non-Muslim can be performed by a women.

Leadership in the 5 daily Muslim prayer is something Islam blessed the man with, this doesn't reduce the rights of the Muslim women to lead in any area she like.
Also if to this point you have no idea of how the 5 daily prayers are formed a muslim brother has made this excellent video to non-Muslims about how the Muslim pray:

Prayer is something between you and God, Islam is the only religion that gave women their full rights, and just as Islam blessed the women with rights 3 times that of the man when it comes to motherhood, Islam blessed the man with leadership when it comes to the 5 daily prayer. A Muslim man will not wish for that which is granted to a women and a Muslim women will not wish for that wish is granted to the man.

Both will submit to the will of God our creator that knows what's best for us, and since in Islam we believe that the Quran is 100% the word of God and that Muhammed is his final prophet and messenger, the rules in Islam comes with absolute justice to both men and women and for the benefit of humanity.

"The only statement of the [true] believers when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them is that they say, "We hear and we obey." And those are the successful."24:51

Islam is a religion about God and the worship of god
"Say (O Muhammed): verily my prayer, my sacrifice, my living, and my dying are for Allah the Lord of mankind. He has no partner. And of this I have been commanded, and I am the first of the Muslims"
(Chapter 7 162-163)
Muslim lead their life the way God and his prophet want us to lead it from the way we eat, enter the toilet speak and sleep even our private affairs with our wives, Islam present its guidance with regard to every single aspect of life.
What is funny that its always the non-Muslim that claim that there is no equality between men and women in Islam as if they know more then the Muslim women herself, that's why you don't hear these complaints from Muslim women because they know such non-sense does not exist in the essence of Islam.

"I found the truth that Islam treat women and men equally. In Islam, women have their right to vote in year 600. Men and Women dressed in a decent way. They are prohibited to tease each other. Indeed, the women need to elongate their dresses."
Kristiane Backer German television presenter, television journalist and author and a revert to islam

The issue of whether women can lead men in prayer has been a topic of discussion in Islam as their is no verse in the quran that says she cant, but there's a general consensus among the scholars of the Muslim deriving their ruling from various Hadith and incident in the prophet life that it's not permissible for a women to lead men in their prayer, but their is also a general consensus that women can leader the prayer of other women.


Did you not see the list I linked you? yes it's common.

Btw I didn't mean it that you had no inspiration of becoming a leader when I mentioned Michelle quite the opposite actually, since I think Michelle is quite a leader that's why i mentioned her, because I assumed from you asking all these matter with regard to women leadership, you have some sort of leadership role in your life that you think such role would not have been granted to a Muslim women.

Ah I see. I was wondering. The text of the post was included in my email notification.

You said that God blessed men with leadership for leading the five daily prayers; I was wondering where it specifically it says that, because what you quoted sounds pretty vague. As I pointed out, all that stuff about minding children is hardly relevant in 2014, when men and women share that responsibility (or should). And I'm still trying to figure out what on earth menstruation, which you've mentioned several times, and with which Islam seems to have some kind of obsession, has to do with anything.

I really don't get what you mean about Michelle Obama; she's not a leader in her own right. She can do interesting things as the wife of a leader, but that's a different thing. The point is that women can and are leaders in their own right. Leaders of men and women, not just of women. Nothing you have said makes any sense in terms of why women are not suitable to be leaders in the same way as men. A "general consensus by scholars" is, with all due respect, a pretty lame excuse in 2014.

How can you say that Islam gives women full rights, when you admit they are not allowed to be leaders in the same

schtinggg

How can you say that Islam gives women full rights, when you admit they are not allowed to be leaders in the same[/QUOTE]

I've been enjoying this debate up to this point. I am fearful however, that we will be presented with the usual 'well, the catholic church isn't exactly accommodating to women' argument - hopefully not........

katydid

schtinggg wrote: »

How can you say that Islam gives women full rights, when you admit they are not allowed to be leaders in the same

I've been enjoying this debate up to this point. I am fearful however, that we will be presented with the usual 'well, the catholic church isn't exactly accommodating to women' argument - hopefully not........[/QUOTE]

As long as it doesn't descend into an anti Roman Catholic diatribe, it's surely ok to contextualise it by reminding readers that Islam isn't alone in discriminating against women?

schtinggg

katydid wrote: »

I've been enjoying this debate up to this point. I am fearful however, that we will be presented with the usual 'well, the catholic church isn't exactly accommodating to women' argument - hopefully not........

As long as it doesn't descend into an anti Roman Catholic diatribe, it's surely ok to contextualise it by reminding readers that Islam isn't alone in discriminating against women?[/QUOTE]

Point noted. However, context is one thing; one that I'm sure any reader or poster here is already aware of. If we were to list all bodies, organisations or whatever that discriminate against women, we'd probably run out of server space. The debate up to this point has been good because its focus has been on Islam. Please do continue.

better call saul

Sad that they have to appear different to their peers. A religion of oppression for sure

katydid

schtinggg wrote: »

As long as it doesn't descend into an anti Roman Catholic diatribe, it's surely ok to contextualise it by reminding readers that Islam isn't alone in discriminating against women?

Point noted. However, context is one thing; one that I'm sure any reader or poster here is already aware of. If we were to list all bodies, organisations or whatever that discriminate against women, we'd probably run out of server space. The debate up to this point has been good because its focus has been on Islam. Please do continue.[/QUOTE]

I think my opponent has given up. Maybe I've left him speechless. I think it must been my crazy suggestions that women are not ruled by their menstrual cycles, and actually have jobs, and husbands who share childcare. All too much for him...

donaghs

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

I can see we are reaching a Climax with this small chat we were having lately as am writing less and less I hope this is a good sign though!


I never said it was a problem, it's as you have said a natural part of life, I guess I simply referred to it to much when I was taking about women in general for you to conclude that.


I blame my poor English for this, as I used "Would" thinking that, it being the past tense of "WILL" can be used for conformation, however I forgot that it can also be used when referring to a possible situation.

Let me correct that. Women ARE accepted as leaders in Islam. one of the bravest soldiers among the history of Islam was a women by the name of Nusaybah bint Ka'b, a women every Muslim holds to a very high regards.

The bravery of this women should be taught in western universities today. As an early convert to Islam she participated in the battle of Uhud, were women role involved bringing water to the soldiers.
Nusaybah entered the battle, carrying a sword and shield, once the Muslims were being defeated and began to retreat. Her skill with the sword in the battle of Uhud astonished those who saw her. The Prophet said that in whichever direction he turned in the battlefield he could see her defending and protecting him.
When her son got wounded in the battle, she bandaged his arm and told him not to lose courage but continue with his attack on the enemy.



I found a nice site that list a number of influential Muslim Women leaders that you might find interesting:
http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/Muslim_Leaders.htm

I think there is an issue with "tenses" here. You say women ARE accepted as leaders in Islam. That's PRESENT TENSE. And the best example you can give is a woman from the time of the birth of Islam (620s)?!

Not a great example either as she apparently was only there, like the other women, in secondary support role, bringing water etc, and happened by chance to get involved in the fighting.

The list of names is interesting too. I note how many of them are from places like Persia, India and western China. Places until recently, far from the reach of Salafist or Wahhabist influence. As well as mainly being wives or daughters of other leaders. The two modern Turkish women on the list don't wear headscarves - relevant this thread. Turkey until Erdogan wasn't officially a Muslim country and had a strong secular influence. Erdogan's recent speeches on gender equality being "against nature", point to a different future for women in Turkey.

And Benazir Bhutto was killed by Islamic extremists.

antoniolgj

But the fact that praying at home is preferable does not mean that that women are not permitted to go to the mosque.

A Muslim women is given a break from prayer the greatest Pillar of Islam during her menstruation as Islam understand the hormonal, physiological and mood changes she undergo during this period.

I wonder where are the feminists? Would a priest get away with these type of comments?

Defender OF Faith

Since it has been a while since I have replied I will divide my answer into a 2 posts based on a main theme.

#1) Prophet Muhammed an introduction into his life

katydid wrote: »

I think my opponent has given up. Maybe I've left him speechless. I think it must been my crazy suggestions that women are not ruled by their menstrual cycles, and actually have jobs, and husbands who share childcare. All too much for him...

#1) stop putting words in my mouth, I never said women are ruled by their menstrual cycle nor found any of these sarcastic comments you just made out of place with what I had written so far.

#2)This is probably why you haven't been reading what I was posting probably. In one instance I had to repost the same answer in multiple occasions before you finally got it, this was not a debate nor did I even consider it as one, the physiology of a debate is like a sport competition, no one like to loose; so even if you make a good point the other person is not going to congratulate you, they are thinking about revenge. A debate is also between people who are quite learned in their areas so far you have been simply asking questions and making statements that you did not support using sources from Islam and I was replaying that's all.

#3) Most of my replays to your posts so far have been within an hour or so from the time you have written them except the last post, hence I needed to take sometime to think about what to say next since after all we are not in a hurry here.


I begin with my replay then:

katydid wrote: »

How can you say that Islam gives women full rights, when you admit they are not allowed to be leaders in the same

To begin with you came here to an Islamic forum accusing Islam of something it's innocent of that's it's a religion that oppresses women while am 100% sure that you never read a biography of Muhammed and all that you know about his life came through what you see in TV and what you read in anti-Islamic website, allow me to give you a brief introduction into this man life first:

To us Muslim and to any scholar or person who have read his Biography Prophet Muhammed, is without doubt the best role model to all of mankind. Among his outstanding virtues & characteristics, he was an extraordinary Husband, a perfect father and a great spiritual leader,judge and statesman.

The Prophet Muhammad is introduced in the Qur’an in these words:
[And We have not sent you forth but as a mercy to mankind. ] (Al-Anbiyaa’: 107)

This man heart was filled with intense love for all human kind irrespective of caste, creed, or color. Once he advised his Companions to regard all people as their brothers and sisters. He added, “You are all Adam’s offspring and Adam was born of clay.”

when the Prophet’s opponents greatly increased their persecution, his Companions asked him to curse them. At this the Prophet replied, “I have not been sent to lay a curse upon men but to be a blessing to them.” His opponents continued to treat him and his Companions unjustly and cruelly, but he always prayed for them.

the Prophet once said, “By God, he is not a believer, by God, he is not a believer, by God, he is not a believer, with whom his neighbors are not secure.” This hadith shows how much he loved and cared for all human beings. One of the lessons he taught was that we should live among others like flowers, and not like thorns, without giving trouble to anybody.

In another hadith the Prophet said, “If a believer is not able to benefit others, he must at least do them no harm.” This shows that to the Prophet the man who becomes useful to others leads his life on a higher plane. But if he fails to do so, he should at least create no trouble for his fellow men

The Prophet’s own example was testified to by Anas ibn Malik, who served the Prophet for ten years. He said that the Prophet never ever rebuked him. “When I did something, he never questioned my manner of doing it; and when I did not do something, he never questioned my failure to do it. He was the most good-natured of all men.”

Once the Prophet was seated at some place in Madinah, along with his Companions. During this time a funeral procession passed by. On seeing this, the Prophet stood up. One of his Companion remarked that the funeral was that of a Jew. The Prophet replied, “Was he not a human being?”

He use to frequently joke with his companions, one day, the Prophet came to Anas Ibn Malik -one of his companions- while he was selling his property. He embraced him from behind without letting the man see him.

The man said, “Leave me and tell me who are you” The man turned and knew that the man who was behind him was the Prophet. The Prophet said, “who will buy this slave?” The man said to the Prophet, “by God! You will find me unsalable”. The prophet said, “but you are not unsalable with God to Him you are so valuable”. So, joking in this tradition is so clear and it is accompanied by the perfect nature and the good companionship.

Also Anas lbn Malik, said, “A man came to the Prophet and asked him to give him a camel to carry his belongings on. The Prophet said, “We shall raise you on the son of the she-camel”. The man, who thought the Prophet meant a young camel said, “O Messenger of Allah! What shall I do with the son of the she-camel”. The Messenger said, “Does the camel give birth to other than the she-camel”.

A mercy to Animals:

The mercy of this man extended to animals as well, he used to commend having mercy on animals. He used to forbid his companions from hurting them, tiring them, overburdening them with heavy loads for long periods, torturing them, or pushing them beyond their limits, for that is a form of suffering.
Once the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him and his house) passed by a camel that was so emaciated its back was one with its abdomen. Upon that, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him and his house) said, “Fear Allah with regard to livestock. Ride them in a fitting way and eat them when they are in good condition.11”


He (peace and blessings be upon him and his house) used to forbid burdening an animal by keeping it standing or sitting on it for a long time unnecessarily. He saw some people sitting on animals so he commented,
“Keep them safe and sound when riding them and when leaving them, don’t use them as chairs for your side talks in the streets and markets. A ridden animal might be better than its rider and might remember and mention God more than its rider does.”

Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him and his house) once said, “A woman was doomed to enter the Fire because of a cat. She imprisoned it and neither fed it nor set it free to eat the rodents of the earth.”

Prophet Muhammad warned against any human being causing a bird to feel panic about its little offspring. Someone took two chicks of a bird (hamra), which came in panic searching for its chicks. Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him and his house) then asked, “Who has distressed it by taking its chicks?” Then he asked them to return the chicks.

Another great quality of Muhammad was that he never took revenge on anyone for personal reasons and always forgave even his firm enemies. His wife `A'ishah reported that Allah's Messenger was not unseemly or obscene in his speech, nor was he loud-voiced in the streets, nor did he return evil for evil, but he would forgive and pardon. The people of the Quraysh rebuked him, taunted and mocked at him, beat him and abused him. They tried to kill him and when he escaped to Madinah, they waged
many wars against him. Yet when he entered Makkah victorious with an army of 10000, he did not take revenge on anyone. He forgave all. Even his deadliest enemy, Abu Sufyan, who had fought so many battles against him, was forgiven, as was anyone who stayed in his house.

Abdullah ibn Ubayy, the leader of the hypocrites of Madinah, worked all his life against Muhammad and Islam and left no stone in trying to defeat his mission. He withdrew his three hundred supporters in the Battle of Uhud, which almost broke the backbone of the Muslims. He engaged in intrigues and acts of hostility against the Prophet of Islam and the Muslims. He tried to discredit Allah’s Messenger by spreading slander about his wife `A’ishah. Yet Muhammad forgave him and offered his funeral prayer and prayed Allah to forgive `Abdullah. But afterwards, Allah revealed: "And never (O Muhammad) pray for one of them who dies, nor stand by his grave. Lo! They disbelieve in Allah and His Messenger, and they died while they were evil doers." (At-Tawbah: 84)

The ideal husband
Prophet Muhammad personifies the roles of perfect father and husband. He was so kind and tolerant with his wives that they could not envisage their lives without him, nor did they want to live away from him. Aisha, his wife describe how once she travelled with the noble prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, he asked her to race him, she was at that time young and thin, and she won the race. Few years later while traveling again the noble prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, he raced her again and this time he won so he told her that that race was for the previous race.

The Prophet was kind and gentle to all women, and advised all other men to follow him in this regard. Sa`d ibn Abi Waqqas described his kindness as follows:
`Umar said -2nd islamic Caliph and companion of Muhammed-: One day I went to the Prophet and saw him smiling. "May God make you smile forever, O Messenger of God," I said, and asked why he was smiling. "I smile at those women. They were chatting in front of me before you came. When they heard your voice, they all vanished," he answered still smiling. On hearing this answer, I raised my voice and told them, "O enemies of your own selves, you are scared of me, but you are not scared of the Messenger of God, and you don't show respect
to him." "You are hard-hearted and strict," they replied. (Al-Bukhari )

Women are secondary beings in the minds of many, including those self-appointed defenders of women's rights as well as many self-proclaimed Muslim men. In Islam, a woman is part of a whole, a part that renders the other half useful. We believe that when the two halves come together, the true unity of a human being appears. When this unity does not exist, humanity does not exist — nor can prophethood, sainthood, or even Islam.

Our Prophet encouraged us through his enlightening words to behave kindly to women. He declared, "The most perfect believers are the best in character, and the best of you are the kindest to their families" (Abu Dawud and At-Tirmidhi). It is clear that women have received the true honor and respect they deserve, not just in theory but in actual practice, only once in history — during the period of Prophet Muhammad.

Cited from,Source and also further reading to those interested:
Part 1: http://islampeace1.wordpress.com/2013/01/19/prophet-muhammad-pbuh-a-mercy-to-the-mankind-part-12/
Part 2: http://islampeace1.wordpress.com/2013/01/19/prophet-muhammad-pbuh-a-mercy-to-the-mankind-part-22/

In conclusion:
If you have read that ,then you will understand why I am as a Muslim and we Muslims in general are adamant that Islam is a perfect religion, that a man like Muhammed whom you just read a glimpse of his wonderful character,would never call to a a religion that will be oppress you. A religion that is send down by God all mighty, and to call it a religion that oppresses women and treat them unequally is due to your own misunderstanding of the religion and its teaching. We believe that Islam is the only way that will lead you to the true path that god wants that's why in the Quran it says:

"And whoever desire other than Islam as religion-never will it be accepted from him and he in the Hereafter will be among the losers"2:85


Yet Islam does not want people to follow it blindly and that's why in the Quran it says that there's no compulsion in religion. In various verses in the Quran it invites you to use and reflect upon the signs of God and use your intellect and mind to lead you to the truth, Islam by its foundation is a very logical and rational religion and wants you to be 100% convinced that's the truth before you enter it.

Suggested Biographies of Muhammed (PBUH):

1)The First Muslim: The Story of Muhammad By lesley hazleton . A wonderful book that I highly suggest as it's written by a non-Muslim and hence may be easier to read and relate to then some of those written by Muslims.

2)The Sealed Nectar a biography written by the Islamic scholar by Safiur Rahman Mubarakpuri. "The book takes into account various phases of the life of Muhammad. The book has been undergone extensive supervision from The Quran Publishing and Printing, Riyadh. The revised edition of the book is less than 600 pages. It has been translated into English as The Sealed Nectar."



The second section of my answer will address the last question you presented to me; regarding why women cannot lead the Muslim prayer which I will hopefully answer by tomorrow as I need to consult a scholar first, Before then I hope I made it clear how a Muslim women can be a leader in any area she likes to be in Islam and how Islam have given the Muslim women her full rights and more. If you think I have missed anything you asked then present it again so I can take it into account when answering you.

Spirogyra

Will I be banned if I post a link outlining that much of the early Quoran was lost? and it also deals with predictable misdeeds by Mohammad?

if indeed we even know who he was,which the author regards as suspect, because as I said, the Quaran was not transcribed for approximately 100 years and most of the early Oralists were killed in battle, they had memorised the Quoran but were killed in battle.

I'd like to post links, but fear banning...

Defender OF Faith

Spirogyra wrote: »

Will I be banned if I post a link outlining that much of the early Quoran was lost? and it also deals with predictable misdeeds by Mohammad?.

0% of the early Quran was lost and the Quran as we have it today is 100% as it was during the prophet time please post this link or send it to me via a PM as it's clearly using misleading sources since if only 1 verse of the only Quran was lost the entire notion of Islam will crumble and the Quran being a book of God as well since it clearly says:

"We have surely send down the revelation and we will surely guard it from corruption"

"And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter his words, and he's the hearing and the Knowing"

If some of the early Quran was lost this mean that God forbid, Allah has failed to protect the Quran glory be to him and exalted may he be from the ill we describe to him.

As I mentioned already in many verses in the Quran, God invites us believers to reflect, think and use our intellect to find the truth in fact we recite in our daily prayer 17 times a day asking God to "Guide us to the straight path". PM the article if you cant post it here.

Spirogyra wrote: »

if indeed we even know who he was,which the author regards as suspect, because as I said, the Quaran was not transcribed for approximately 100 years and most of the early Oralists were killed in battle, they had memorised the Quoran but were killed in battle.

I'd like to post links, but fear banning...

And as I have said this is not true. Now it's either
A) The source you derived this conclusion from was talking about something else and you have misinterpreted it
It presented misleading sources and lead you to arrive to such conclusion.



Review this post:

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Its seems that the link you have read mislead you I would like to see it so I can clear your doubts.
Mohammed (PBUH) was illiterate and could not read nor write, initially the prophet forbad his companion from writing the Quran to encourage memorizing it however later during his life a group of his companions know as "the writers/scribes of revelations" numbering between 23 to 43 men had the duty of writing down the revelation/Quran.

The Quran remained preserved in the heart of his companion and in the various hides that were used to write the revelation, until the time of the 1st Caliph Abu Bakr.
During his short reign, many of the companions whom memorized the Quran were killed during the Ridda wars, and thus in fear of the Quran being lost in the heart of those killed he decided to collect the Quran into a single book to preserve it (by gathering the various papers and scripts the Quran was written in those were possessed by a number of people) this task was given to Zayd ibn Thabit.

Zayd finally accepted the task and, according to him,
"started locating the Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leafstalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart)". Being very strict in his collection of the Quran and even though he had memorized it he refused to write a verse unless 2 of the companion testified that they heard it from the prophet.

The original book that was compiled by Zayd Ibn Thabit was with Abu Bakr during his rule, it was written on palm leaves. After Abu Bakr passed away it was handed down to Umar and then to Hafsa the daughter of Umar Ibn Al Khattab after Umar death, the wife of the Prophet had the book in her possession until the Caliphate of Uthman Ibn Affan.

This with regard to the Quran as a book, however another reason the Quran was well preserved is because those who were teachers of the Quran would have an ijazah and this system continues on still today, a teacher of the Quran must have this as it certify that this named person had read the Quran correctly from cover to cover through face to face interaction with his teacher who would then give him an Ijazah to teach and read the Quran, testifying that you -the student- have recited the Quran to me in the exact same way my teacher had recited it to me, he should then be able to trace this chain of narration back to one of the prophet companion before finally the prophet him self.
Currently in the Muslim world the person with the closest chain of narration to the prophet is a women called Um Alsaad from Egypt with only 27 people between her and the prophet.

Source:http://ibnalhyderabadee.wordpress.com/2006/04/11/legacy-of-abu-bakr-compilation-of-the-quraan/

Also:

Spirogyra wrote: »

what role have the billions of other planets in Gods creation? what is Islams view on these ?.

Would you still be interested to hear the answer still or no?

katydid

antoniolgj wrote: »

I wonder where are the feminists? Would a priest get away with these type of comments?

As I said, they seem obsessed with menstruation for some bizarre reason.

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

To begin with you came here to an Islamic forum accusing Islam of something it's innocent of that's it's a religion that oppresses women while am 100% sure that you never read a biography of Muhammed and all that you know about his life came through what you see in TV and what you read in anti-Islamic website, allow me to give you a brief introduction into this man life first:

To us Muslim and to any scholar or person who have read his Biography Prophet Muhammed, is without doubt the best role model to all of mankind. Among his outstanding virtues & characteristics, he was an extraordinary Husband, a perfect father and a great spiritual leader,judge and statesman.

The Prophet Muhammad is introduced in the Qur’an in these words:
[And We have not sent you forth but as a mercy to mankind. ] (Al-Anbiyaa’: 107)

This man heart was filled with intense love for all human kind irrespective of caste, creed, or color. Once he advised his Companions to regard all people as their brothers and sisters. He added, “You are all Adam’s offspring and Adam was born of clay.”

when the Prophet’s opponents greatly increased their persecution, his Companions asked him to curse them. At this the Prophet replied, “I have not been sent to lay a curse upon men but to be a blessing to them.” His opponents continued to treat him and his Companions unjustly and cruelly, but he always prayed for them.

the Prophet once said, “By God, he is not a believer, by God, he is not a believer, by God, he is not a believer, with whom his neighbors are not secure.” This hadith shows how much he loved and cared for all human beings. One of the lessons he taught was that we should live among others like flowers, and not like thorns, without giving trouble to anybody.

In another hadith the Prophet said, “If a believer is not able to benefit others, he must at least do them no harm.” This shows that to the Prophet the man who becomes useful to others leads his life on a higher plane. But if he fails to do so, he should at least create no trouble for his fellow men

The Prophet’s own example was testified to by Anas ibn Malik, who served the Prophet for ten years. He said that the Prophet never ever rebuked him. “When I did something, he never questioned my manner of doing it; and when I did not do something, he never questioned my failure to do it. He was the most good-natured of all men.”

Once the Prophet was seated at some place in Madinah, along with his Companions. During this time a funeral procession passed by. On seeing this, the Prophet stood up. One of his Companion remarked that the funeral was that of a Jew. The Prophet replied, “Was he not a human being?”

He use to frequently joke with his companions, one day, the Prophet came to Anas Ibn Malik -one of his companions- while he was selling his property. He embraced him from behind without letting the man see him.

The man said, “Leave me and tell me who are you” The man turned and knew that the man who was behind him was the Prophet. The Prophet said, “who will buy this slave?” The man said to the Prophet, “by God! You will find me unsalable”. The prophet said, “but you are not unsalable with God to Him you are so valuable”. So, joking in this tradition is so clear and it is accompanied by the perfect nature and the good companionship.

Also Anas lbn Malik, said, “A man came to the Prophet and asked him to give him a camel to carry his belongings on. The Prophet said, “We shall raise you on the son of the she-camel”. The man, who thought the Prophet meant a young camel said, “O Messenger of Allah! What shall I do with the son of the she-camel”. The Messenger said, “Does the camel give birth to other than the she-camel”.

A mercy to Animals:

The mercy of this man extended to animals as well, he used to commend having mercy on animals. He used to forbid his companions from hurting them, tiring them, overburdening them with heavy loads for long periods, torturing them, or pushing them beyond their limits, for that is a form of suffering.
Once the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him and his house) passed by a camel that was so emaciated its back was one with its abdomen. Upon that, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him and his house) said, “Fear Allah with regard to livestock. Ride them in a fitting way and eat them when they are in good condition.11”


He (peace and blessings be upon him and his house) used to forbid burdening an animal by keeping it standing or sitting on it for a long time unnecessarily. He saw some people sitting on animals so he commented,
“Keep them safe and sound when riding them and when leaving them, don’t use them as chairs for your side talks in the streets and markets. A ridden animal might be better than its rider and might remember and mention God more than its rider does.”

Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him and his house) once said, “A woman was doomed to enter the Fire because of a cat. She imprisoned it and neither fed it nor set it free to eat the rodents of the earth.”

Prophet Muhammad warned against any human being causing a bird to feel panic about its little offspring. Someone took two chicks of a bird (hamra), which came in panic searching for its chicks. Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him and his house) then asked, “Who has distressed it by taking its chicks?” Then he asked them to return the chicks.

Another great quality of Muhammad was that he never took revenge on anyone for personal reasons and always forgave even his firm enemies. His wife `A'ishah reported that Allah's Messenger was not unseemly or obscene in his speech, nor was he loud-voiced in the streets, nor did he return evil for evil, but he would forgive and pardon. The people of the Quraysh rebuked him, taunted and mocked at him, beat him and abused him. They tried to kill him and when he escaped to Madinah, they waged
many wars against him. Yet when he entered Makkah victorious with an army of 10000, he did not take revenge on anyone. He forgave all. Even his deadliest enemy, Abu Sufyan, who had fought so many battles against him, was forgiven, as was anyone who stayed in his house.

Abdullah ibn Ubayy, the leader of the hypocrites of Madinah, worked all his life against Muhammad and Islam and left no stone in trying to defeat his mission. He withdrew his three hundred supporters in the Battle of Uhud, which almost broke the backbone of the Muslims. He engaged in intrigues and acts of hostility against the Prophet of Islam and the Muslims. He tried to discredit Allah’s Messenger by spreading slander about his wife `A’ishah. Yet Muhammad forgave him and offered his funeral prayer and prayed Allah to forgive `Abdullah. But afterwards, Allah revealed: "And never (O Muhammad) pray for one of them who dies, nor stand by his grave. Lo! They disbelieve in Allah and His Messenger, and they died while they were evil doers." (At-Tawbah: 84)

The ideal husband
Prophet Muhammad personifies the roles of perfect father and husband. He was so kind and tolerant with his wives that they could not envisage their lives without him, nor did they want to live away from him. Aisha, his wife describe how once she travelled with the noble prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, he asked her to race him, she was at that time young and thin, and she won the race. Few years later while traveling again the noble prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, he raced her again and this time he won so he told her that that race was for the previous race.

The Prophet was kind and gentle to all women, and advised all other men to follow him in this regard. Sa`d ibn Abi Waqqas described his kindness as follows:
`Umar said -2nd islamic Caliph and companion of Muhammed-: One day I went to the Prophet and saw him smiling. "May God make you smile forever, O Messenger of God," I said, and asked why he was smiling. "I smile at those women. They were chatting in front of me before you came. When they heard your voice, they all vanished," he answered still smiling. On hearing this answer, I raised my voice and told them, "O enemies of your own selves, you are scared of me, but you are not scared of the Messenger of God, and you don't show respect
to him." "You are hard-hearted and strict," they replied. (Al-Bukhari )

Women are secondary beings in the minds of many, including those self-appointed defenders of women's rights as well as many self-proclaimed Muslim men. In Islam, a woman is part of a whole, a part that renders the other half useful. We believe that when the two halves come together, the true unity of a human being appears. When this unity does not exist, humanity does not exist — nor can prophethood, sainthood, or even Islam.

Our Prophet encouraged us through his enlightening words to behave kindly to women. He declared, "The most perfect believers are the best in character, and the best of you are the kindest to their families" (Abu Dawud and At-Tirmidhi). It is clear that women have received the true honor and respect they deserve, not just in theory but in actual practice, only once in history — during the period of Prophet Muhammad.

Cited from,Source and also further reading to those interested:
Part 1: http://islampeace1.wordpress.com/2013/01/19/prophet-muhammad-pbuh-a-mercy-to-the-mankind-part-12/
Part 2: http://islampeace1.wordpress.com/2013/01/19/prophet-muhammad-pbuh-a-mercy-to-the-mankind-part-22/

In conclusion:
If you have read that ,then you will understand why I am as a Muslim and we Muslims in general are adamant that Islam is a perfect religion, that a man like Muhammed whom you just read a glimpse of his wonderful character,would never call to a a religion that will be oppress you. A religion that is send down by God all mighty, and to call it a religion that oppresses women and treat them unequally is due to your own misunderstanding of the religion and its teaching. We believe that Islam is the only way that will lead you to the true path that god wants that's why in the Quran it says:

"And whoever desire other than Islam as religion-never will it be accepted from him and he in the Hereafter will be among the losers"2:85


Yet Islam does not want people to follow it blindly and that's why in the Quran it says that there's no compulsion in religion. In various verses in the Quran it invites you to use and reflect upon the signs of God and use your intellect and mind to lead you to the truth, Islam by its foundation is a very logical and rational religion and wants you to be 100% convinced that's the truth before you enter it.

Suggested Biographies of Muhammed (PBUH):

1)The First Muslim: The Story of Muhammad By lesley hazleton . A wonderful book that I highly suggest as it's written by a non-Muslim and hence may be easier to read and relate to then some of those written by Muslims.

2)The Sealed Nectar a biography written by the Islamic scholar by Safiur Rahman Mubarakpuri. "The book takes into account various phases of the life of Muhammad. The book has been undergone extensive supervision from The Quran Publishing and Printing, Riyadh. The revised edition of the book is less than 600 pages. It has been translated into English as The Sealed Nectar."



The second section of my answer will address the last question you presented to me; regarding why women cannot lead the Muslim prayer which I will hopefully answer by tomorrow as I need to consult a scholar first, Before then I hope I made it clear how a Muslim women can be a leader in any area she likes to be in Islam and how Islam have given the Muslim women her full rights and more. If you think I have missed anything you asked then present it again so I can take it into account when answering you.

A. This is not an Islamic forum. It is a section ABOUT Islam in an Irish forum.

B. I didn't "accuse" Islam of oppressing women. I said it discriminates against women, which is a different thing. Some versions of Islam oppress women, but Islam as a religion discriminates against them. That is quite clear; you have admitted yourself that women are not subject to the same rules and expectations as men, and do not have equal status in terms of religious leadership. They are not allowed to be imams in mosques because, according to you, of "household and childcare duties".

I fail to see how a biography of Mohammed would change these facts. And I fail to see what all that stuff about Mohammed has to do with this discussion.

C. You claim that women are two parts of a whole. If so, why aren't they treated in the same way as men? Parts only fit together if they are equal...when a religion says that a woman can't be trusted to give witness without being "reminded" by another woman, while a man can, clearly doesn't see men and women. You say a woman does not have the same religious obligations as a man, because of things such as menstruation (despite several requests, you still haven't explained this obsession with menstruation) A woman is certainly not seen as equal to a man, no matter how you twist it.

D. You can call your religion a perfect religion, but a "perfect" religion would not treat human beings differently because of their gender. That's far fro perfection.

E. You mention Mohammed's wives. Are women allowed have more than one husband in Islam? If not, then they are surely discriminated against?

Just a suggestion - if you could cut down on quoting long reams of scripture, especially irrelevant material, it would make it easier to follow the train of your argument. It's very hard to pick out your actual argument from the amount of scripture, and it's not necessary.

Defender OF Faith

katydid wrote: »

B. I didn't "accuse" Islam of oppressing women.

It seems that I remember your words more then you, I get the feeling that am the only one taking this seriously.

katydid wrote: »

It is not a misconception that Islam oppresses women, it is a fact;

katydid wrote: »

Some versions of Islam oppress women, but Islam as a religion discriminates against them.[Need proof/examples]That is quite clear; you have admitted yourself that women are not subject to the same rules and expectations as men,[Indicate were I have said that].

katydid wrote: »

I fail to see how a biography of Mohammed would change these facts. And I fail to see what all that stuff about Mohammed has to do with this discussion.

It has everything to do with this discussion as he's the founder of Islam, therefore to understand Islam you need to understand his life first.

If you are unwilling to read and understand the life of the Founder of this religion you have no business discussing its laws and ruling.Since your entire argument centres around Islam discrimination of women but if the founder of this religion never discriminated against women in his entire life and preached the opposite, then clearly your misunderstanding something here.

katydid wrote: »

C. You claim that women are two parts of a whole. If so, why aren't they treated in the same way as men? Parts only fit together if they are equal...when a religion says that a woman can't be trusted to give witness without being "reminded" by another woman, while a man can

I have dealt with this question and explained it well, read my older posts addressing it and if you dont like the previous answer tell me what's wrong with it.

katydid wrote: »

D. You can call your religion a perfect religion, but a "perfect" religion would not treat human beings differently because of their gender. That's far fro perfection.

Are you serious? are you not aware that even your western laws treat people differently based on their gender?

"Presumed paternity laws, post-conception reproductive rights and child support, alimony orders, the gynocentric/misandric definition of rape, the treatment of statutory rape victims pertaining to pregnancy (ie. girls can have an abortion that is paid for by the state, but boys will have to pay child support), public funding for female domestic violence shelters and a lack of public funds for male shelters, the requirement of men exclusively to register with selective service, etc...

There isn't enough space here to go into all the issues that coincide with gender & the law, and how it plays out."

katydid wrote: »

E. You mention Mohammed's wives. Are women allowed have more than one husband in Islam? If not, then they are surely discriminated against?

Am not really sure if you are actually serious or not regarding this, take a time and think about it first, as this question should offend your honour and modesty as a women, what would happen if a women was married to 4 men.

It seems that you have a preformed idea in your mind that Islam calls for inequality between the sexes and do not want to change this notion no matter what is being said, as it appears that you keep recycling statements which I have explained in full, and I wish you would bring them back while at the same time refuting my answer however you bring them back as if I haven't said anything regarding them,basically throwing my answer against the wall as if nothing have happing and moving the train back to point A. Am starting to feel such online discussions are useless due to the time gap between each response leading to forgetting important points or the other party not bothered to read the response will and immediately jumps into conclusion.

If you are serious about understanding Islam you will make the effort to find a Muslim sister that might be able to help or visit a mosque or the Discover Islam "Dawah table" in the city in front of the GPO building but I feel that you are only here for the argument.

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

It seems that I remember your words more then you, I get the feeling that am the only one taking this seriously.






It has everything to do with this discussion as he's the founder of Islam, therefore to understand Islam you need to understand his life first.

If you are unwilling to read and understand the life of the Founder of this religion you have no business discussing its laws and ruling.Since your entire argument centres around Islam discrimination of women but if the founder of this religion never discriminated against women in his entire life and preached the opposite, then clearly your misunderstanding something here.


I have dealt with this question and explained it well, read my older posts addressing it and if you dont like the previous answer tell me what's wrong with it.

Are you serious? are you not aware that even your western laws treat people differently based on their gender?

"Presumed paternity laws, post-conception reproductive rights and child support, alimony orders, the gynocentric/misandric definition of rape, the treatment of statutory rape victims pertaining to pregnancy (ie. girls can have an abortion that is paid for by the state, but boys will have to pay child support), public funding for female domestic violence shelters and a lack of public funds for male shelters, the requirement of men exclusively to register with selective service, etc...

There isn't enough space here to go into all the issues that coincide with gender & the law, and how it plays out."


Am not really sure if you are actually serious or not regarding this, take a time and think about it first, as this question should offend your honour and modesty as a women, what would happen if a women was married to 4 men.

It seems that you have a preformed idea in your mind that Islam calls for inequality between the sexes and do not want to change this notion no matter what is being said, as it appears that you keep recycling statements which I have explained in full, and I wish you would bring them back while at the same time refuting my answer however you bring them back as if I haven't said anything regarding them,basically throwing my answer against the wall as if nothing have happing and moving the train back to point A. Am starting to feel such online discussions are useless due to the time gap between each response leading to forgetting important points or the other party not bothered to read the response will and immediately jumps into conclusion.

If you are serious about understanding Islam you will make the effort to find a Muslim sister that might be able to help or visit a mosque or the Discover Islam "Dawah table" in the city in front of the GPO building but I feel that you are only here for the argument.

I take discrimination against women very seriously, I'll have you know. I made it clear from the beginning I was referring to discrimination and lack of equality, not oppression. As I said, some elements of Islam do oppress women, but Islam as a religion discriminates; the examples you yourself gave show this.

I know Mohammed is the founder of Islam, but how he behaved towards his friends or his enemies is not relevant to this discussion. The only thing that is relevant is what he said about women and their role.

IF Mohammed didn't discriminate against women, then he is at odds with the religion he founded. As you said yourself, it treats women as less important when it comes to testimony in court in certain situations, and when it comes to personal prayer and leading prayers. Their word is not accepted on its own, and they are not allowed to lead men, or men and women together in prayer. And the reason for this is childcare and household duties - as if only women are responsible for these things.

I don't have a pre-formed idea. I got my knowledge from reading and hearing and seeing the way Muslim women are treated differently than men. From seeing fully covered women walking behind men wearing jeans and a tee shirt, for example. And from, amongst other things, the things you have told me about how women are treated as inferiors.

Treating people differently is not the same as treating one gender as inferior. No western law says the testimony of a woman is not acceptable on its own in any legal situation, and no western law says that a woman is not allowed to be a leader of men and women. Other religions do this, but that is not the point. There is no question but that other religions discriminate against women, the point is that Islam pretends otherwise.

If a woman was married to four men, how would it be any less shocking than a man married to four women? I sense a double standard here.

Still waiting for an explanation as to why you are obsessed with menstruation...

I don't see how talking to a woman who is happy to be a member of a group that discriminates against her would convince me that she is not being discriminated against. If you could point me to a woman who is a leader of religion in the exact same way as a man, and who thinks the idea of a woman's testimony is always of the same value as that of a man, then I'd be delighted to hear from her. Does such a woman exist?

Defender OF Faith

katydid wrote: »

IF Mohammed didn't discriminate against women, then he is at odds with the religion he founded.As you said yourself, it treats women as less important when it comes to testimony in court in certain situations,[I never said that provide proofs where I did] and when it comes to personal prayer[How exactly when it come to personal prayer?] and leading prayers.[I said I will answer this issue tomorrow] Their word is not accepted on its own,[Proof what does a women word has to do with prayer?!?!?!] and they are not allowed to lead men, or men and women together in prayer. And the reason for this is childcare and household duties - as if only women are responsible for these things. [Show me where I have said that this is the reason as I never specified a specific reason as to why]

I don't have a pre-formed idea. I got my knowledge from reading and hearing and seeing the way Muslim women are treated differently than men. From seeing fully covered women walking behind men wearing jeans and a tee shirt, for example. And from, amongst other things, the things you have told me about how women are treated as inferiors.[Discussed all these points already and answered them yet you bring them up again as if I did nothing because I simply cannot change a preformed idea that you yourself are not aware of]

Treating people differently is not the same as treating one gender as inferior. No western law says the testimony of a woman is not acceptable on its own in any legal situation,[Again coming back to this point which I have already explained view my answer] and no western law says that a woman is not allowed to be a leader of men and women.Other religions do this, but that is not the point. There is no question but that other religions discriminate against women, the point is that Islam pretends otherwise.

If a woman was married to four men, how would it be any less shocking than a man married to four women? I sense a double standard here.[What do you think you or your female friends will say if you ask them whether they wouldn't mind being married to more then one man and tell me how many of them even remotely or has a 0.0+n chance of considering before I explain]

Still waiting for an explanation as to why you are obsessed with menstruation...[Show me were did I show obsession with menstruation so I can explain]

I don't see how talking to a woman who is happy to be a member of a group that discriminates against her would convince me that she is not being discriminated against.[As I mentioned before women convert to Islam at a rate of 4 to 1 and these women have tasted "the western equality" and yet choose to conver to a religion that discriminate against them? clearly your misunderstanding something, according to your own limited understanding and research only go speak to an actual Muslim women and see if she agrees with your sentiment] If you could point me to a woman who is a leader of religion in the exact same way as a man, and who thinks the idea of a woman's testimony is always of the same value as that of a man, then I'd be delighted to hear from her. Does such a woman exist?[Issue of testimony again did you even read what I said?]

As you can see you brought nothing new here, just regurgitating old issues and argument which I have already discussed, usually what would happen in such a discussion is the following:

Party A present a question
Part B answers the Question
Part A discusses the answer

However what you are doing here is basically beating around the bush by presenting a question I then provide you with an answer to this question but then you yet again ask the same question without telling me what's wrong with my answer to your question.

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

As you can see you brought nothing new here, just regurgitating old issues and argument which I have already discussed, usually what would happen in such a discussion is the following:

Party A present a question
Part B answers the Question
Part A discusses the answer

However what you are doing here is basically beating around the bush by presenting a question I then provide you with an answer to this question but then you yet again ask the same question without telling me what's wrong with my answer to your question.

No, I haven't regurgitated old arguments. I've pointed out that you are contradicting yourself, by saying that men and women are equal in Islam, while providing examples of how they are not. I'm simply asking you to explain this contradiction.

So I'll present the questions again, and see if you have the courage to answer them:

1. If the testimony of a woman is not acceptable in a particular circumstance while the testimony of a man in the same circumstance is, how are men and women equal?

2. If a woman can't lead prayer in all the same circumstances as a man, such as being an imam and leading the five daily prayers, or leading men and women in prayer, how are men and women equal?

3. If a woman has to cover herself from head to toe, including her hair, while a man has only to cover from his navel to his knee, how are men and women equal?

4. If a man can have up to four wives but a woman can only have one husband, how are men and women equal?

And lastly...for the fourth time of asking; why is Islam obsessed by menstruation?

Defender OF Faith

katydid wrote: »

No, I haven't regurgitated old arguments. I've pointed out that you are contradicting yourself, by saying that men and women are equal in Islam, while providing examples of how they are not. I'm simply asking you to explain this contradiction.[Examples I have already explained]

So I'll present the questions again, and see if you have the courage to answer them:

1. If the testimony of a woman is not acceptable in a particular circumstance while the testimony of a man in the same circumstance is, how are men and women equal?[Again already explained look at my old posts when we were discussing this and you will find the answer]

circumstances as a man, such as being an imam and leading the five daily prayers, or leading men and women in prayer, how are men and women equal?[Have you been reading what I said? will answer later today]

3. If a woman has to cover herself from head to toe, including her hair, while a man has only to cover from his navel to his knee, how are men and women equal?[Already answered multiple times before review my old post when we were discussing this and tell me what was wrong with the answer I previously gave]


4. If a man can have up to four wives but a woman can only have one husband, how are men and women equal?[You didn't answer my question did you even read it?
"What do you think you or your female friends will say if you ask them whether they wouldn't mind being married to more then one man and tell me how many of them even remotely or has a 0.0+n chance of considering before I explain"]


And lastly...for the fourth time of asking; why is Islam obsessed by menstruation?i[For the 3rd or 4th time now? are you even listening to me?! I said quote and show me where have I said Islam is obsessed with menstruation?!]

Nothing new again 3 of your comments I already discussed and you are yet to show me where did my answer go wrong instead you come back again and ask the exact same question.

That's why I said go talk to someone face to face if you are truly serious about this, and since you said discrimination against women is no laughing matter and is something you take very seriously,you will take your issue to an Imam of a mosque and not try argue your point over the internet, as if a religion that is currently the fastest growing religion in the world with 1.8 billion follower was discriminating against women it wouldn't have grown to what's today.

It also appears that your attention span is short and you find it difficult to try and remember what I wrote time and time again coupled with the fact that you are not reading what am saying probably leading you to come with conclusions such as "Islam is obsessed with the menstrual cycle", therefore having a discussion with a relevant Islamic body will prove much more helpful, as all your queries can be answered directly.

It's also ironic how you dare me to answer if I have the courage yet I answered however you seem to be lacking the courage to read and change your ideology regarding Islam and Women.

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Nothing new again 3 of your comments I already discussed and you are yet to show me where did my answer go wrong instead you come back again and ask the exact same question.

That's why I said go talk to someone face to face if you are truly serious about this, and since you said discrimination against women is no laughing matter and is something you take very seriously,you will take your issue to an Imam of a mosque and not try argue your point over the internet, as if a religion that is currently the fastest growing religion in the world with 1.8 billion follower was discriminating against women it wouldn't have grown to what's today.

It also appears that your attention span is short and you find it difficult to try and remember what I wrote time and time again coupled with the fact that you are not reading what am saying probably leading you to come with conclusions such as "Islam is obsessed with the menstrual cycle", therefore having a discussion with a relevant Islamic body will prove much more helpful, as all your queries can be answered directly.

It's also ironic how you dare me to answer if I have the courage yet I answered however you seem to be lacking the courage to read and change your ideology regarding Islam and Women.

You want me to talk to an Imam now? So are you saying that you are incapable of explaining your own religion to me?

I remember exactly what you said, even the stuff I had to plough through reams of irrelevant material to find. You have not answered as you claimed.

1. Let's take the first one. You "explained" that a woman would need "reminding" by someone else because of family life and menstruation. A load of nonsense. Women lead busy lives. So do men. Your religion clearly believes that women are not capable of giving true testimony in the same way as men. I'm asking how how you can reconcile that with a claim that women are equal to men.

2. You "explained" that women couldn't be Imams because of family duty and menstruation. (Menstruation is getting to be a bit of a pattern here, and you still haven't explained its significance). I pointed out that both men and women are capable of childcare and looking after their families, and that not all women are married or have children. You failed to address these points, and you haven't explained how you reconcile your claim about the equality of women with this clear example of something men are allowed to do which women are not.

3. You have not answered WHY women have to cover themselves more than men. I pointed out that many women would find men's hair or chests or faces attractive, and therefore, based on the reasons you outlined for covering up, men should cover themselves on the same basis as women have to. But they don't. How how you can reconcile that with a claim that women are equal to men?

4. The fact is that men can marry up to four wives, but women can only marry one husband. Whatever the reason for that, it is a clear inequality between men and women. As for the argument that women would or wouldn't mind being married to more than one man, one could ask the same of any man. If women are expected to be faithful to one man in marriage, so should men.

I didn't say you said Islam is obsessed with menstruation. But you have mentioned menstruation so often, without any explanation, and in such bizarre contexts, that you certainly make it seem so. So, are you going to explain why you've brought up menstruation so often? I am totally baffled what it has got to do with anything, and you have made no effort to explain.

If you can't participate in a discussion about theological matters in your religion, then you shouldn't make statements you can't stand over, and then chicken out by telling me to ask someone else.

Defender OF Faith

katydid wrote: »

You want me to talk to an Imam now? So are you saying that you are incapable of explaining your own religion to me?[Because you are not listening to me]

1. Let's take the first one. You "explained" that a woman would need "reminding" by someone else because of family life and menstruation. [Never said that, dont put words in my mouth]

2. You "explained" that women couldn't be Imams because of family duty and menstruation.[Again I never pointed a specific reason as to why because I havent even answered the question regarding to women leading prayer].

I didn't say you said Islam is obsessed with menstruation. But you have mentioned menstruation so often, without any explanation, and in such bizarre contexts, that you certainly make it seem so. So, are you going to explain why you've brought up menstruation so often? I am totally baffled what it has got to do with anything, and you have made no effort to explain.[Because men do not menstruate take a basic biology course to understand what your body goes through during the menstrual cycle to put into context what I was saying]

katydid wrote: »

If you can't participate in a discussion about theological matters in your religion, then you shouldn't make statements you can't stand over, and then chicken out by telling me to ask someone else.

Theological matters? do you even know what theology is?! you have not so far presented a SINGLE verse or a SINGLE hadith to show or indicate that you have any knowledge or Islam for this to be a discussion, this was me informing someone who's ignorant and misguided about Islamic teachings and law.

You do not want to listen to me, and hence taking to someone one face to face, for someone like your self seems to be the best option. I did not chicken by telling you go talk to someone else In fact I have no problem taking to you about this issue you might understand better then, come to the Discover Islam "Dawah table" in front of the GPO office in the city centre. If your serious I can PM a sisters phone number that can lead you there.

[As I mentioned before women convert to Islam at a rate of 4 to 1 and these women have tasted "the western equality" and yet choose to conver to a religion that discriminate against them? clearly your misunderstanding something, according to your own limited understanding and research only go speak to an actual Muslim women and see if she agrees with your sentiment]

katydid wrote: »

3. You have not answered WHY women have to cover themselves more than men.

4TH TIME I QUOTE THIS ANSWER. Tell me what does not make sense about it?

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

well let me ask you this first as it will help me in answering your question.
Why do women in the west where they have been equated with men cover their breasts and men don't if they are as the west claim equal?

katydid wrote: »

Women in the west cover their breasts because it is a tradition that has existed for a long time, even before the Christian era. There is no religious prohibition on it.

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

And yet they still cover their breast why you tell me? because it's a tradition; making it appear that women in the west don't really care about their modesty or shame. However Islam cares deeply about a women modesty and shame, and hence orders the Hijab to be worn by her and that does not make her any less equal then a man, who does not have to do this.
Just like western men who do not cover their chest, are no less equal then western women that do cover their chest.

katydid wrote: »

4. The fact is that men can marry up to four wives, but women can only marry one husband. Whatever the reason for that, it is a clear inequality between men and women.

I was avoiding a direct answer to this because I was hoping that you understand how seriously sick what your suggesting is, having 4 men insert their body part into the same part, not only increases the risks of transmitting diseases as studies have shown exposure to semen appears to increase the risk of cervical cancer so imagine the risks involved in the women getting exposed to the semen of 4 different men. It's also is disgraceful to the women itself and your western society is a proof of this. A women that sleep with multiple men is shunned upon while a man is treated as a legend.

Lets think about this logically first before moving into what Islam has to say about this.

Suppose a women is married to 4 men, man A,B,C,D all wants children.
To begin with it will lead to hassle just to determine who's the father of this child, but each poor man would have to wait 9 month to bear a child of his own, the women cannot obviously bear the child as soon as she delivers the baby of her first man, she would probably wait for at least a year before making another child with man B, hence each man would need to wait nearly 2 years before having his child, let alone those who want more then one child. The poor women will need to spend the rest of her life being pregnant and delivering babies but I don't think you care as long as you get your "equality".

The capacity of the Man to love is also larger then the women, and society is a testimony to this.
A man could have a relationship with multiple women at the same time, while when a women have a serious affair its usually only with a single man, how do you expect this poor women to love 4 different men at the same time? again I don't think you really care though as long as you get your "equality"

Lets look at what Islam says about this:

"Qur'an (4:3) - "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four" Inequality by numbers"

"how many wifes have you got" is quite a humorous question a lot of the westerners ask the Arabs most of the time we answer by saying we got only one but its the solution to YOUR problem.
In America alone there are 7.8 million more women then men and obviously not all men will get married on top of that there are approximately 25 million men who are gays and hence ANOTHER 25m women cant get married/find a partner, 98% of the prison population are males so your problem is only getting more complicated while Islam is offering you a solution.

Quran is the only scripture which has the statement "marry only one" and you can only marry more if you can do JUSTICE between your wives in term of money,time and material things the quran it self acknowledge that doing justice in term of love is not entirely possible but that shouldnt make you unjust to another.

On another note you talk like Islam is the religion that introduced polygamy however it was practised centuries before Islam. Islam came to set a limit to polygamy for example prophet Ibrahim had 3 wifes Solomon had 700 wives the bible and the jewish scripture both premit polygamy its only later that laws were passed to limit the Jews to one wife & the Christians as well by the church and Jewish rabbis.

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Theological matters? do you even know what theology is?! you have not so far presented a SINGLE verse or a SINGLE hadith to show or indicate that you have any knowledge or Islam for this to be a discussion, this was me informing someone who's ignorant and misguided about Islamic teachings and law.

You do not want to listen to me, and hence taking to someone one face to face, for someone like your self seems to be the best option. I did not chicken by telling you go talk to someone else In fact I have no problem taking to you about this issue you might understand better then, come to the Discover Islam "Dawah table" in front of the GPO office in the city centre. If your serious I can PM a sisters phone number that can lead you there.

[As I mentioned before women convert to Islam at a rate of 4 to 1 and these women have tasted "the western equality" and yet choose to conver to a religion that discriminate against them? clearly your misunderstanding something, according to your own limited understanding and research only go speak to an actual Muslim women and see if she agrees with your sentiment]



4TH TIME I QUOTE THIS ANSWER. Tell me what does not make sense about it?










I was avoiding a direct answer to this because I was hoping that you understand how seriously sick what your suggesting is, having 4 men insert their body part into the same part, not only increases the risks of transmitting diseases as studies have shown exposure to semen appears to increase the risk of cervical cancer so imagine the risks involved in the women getting exposed to the semen of 4 different men. It's also is disgraceful to the women itself and your western society is a proof of this. A women that sleep with multiple men is shunned upon while a man is treated as a legend.

Lets think about this logically first before moving into what Islam has to say about this.

Suppose a women is married to 4 men, man A,B,C,D all wants children.
To begin with it will lead to hassle just to determine who's the father of this child, but each poor man would have to wait 9 month to bear a child of his own, the women cannot obviously bear the child as soon as she delivers the baby of her first man, she would probably wait for at least a year before making another child with man B, hence each man would need to wait nearly 2 years before having his child, let alone those who want more then one child. The poor women will need to spend the rest of her life being pregnant and delivering babies but I don't think you care as long as you get your "equality".

The capacity of the Man to love is also larger then the women, and society is a testimony to this.
A man could have a relationship with multiple women at the same time, while when a women have a serious affair its usually only with a single man, how do you expect this poor women to love 4 different men at the same time? again I don't think you really care though as long as you get your "equality"

Lets look at what Islam says about this:

"Qur'an (4:3) - "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four" Inequality by numbers"

"how many wifes have you got" is quite a humorous question a lot of the westerners ask the Arabs most of the time we answer by saying we got only one but its the solution to YOUR problem.
In America alone there are 7.8 million more women then men and obviously not all men will get married on top of that there are approximately 25 million men who are gays and hence ANOTHER 25m women cant get married/find a partner, 98% of the prison population are males so your problem is only getting more complicated while Islam is offering you a solution.

Quran is the only scripture which has the statement "marry only one" and you can only marry more if you can do JUSTICE between your wives in term of money,time and material things the quran it self acknowledge that doing justice in term of love is not entirely possible but that shouldnt make you unjust to another.

On another note you talk like Islam is the religion that introduced polygamy however it was practised centuries before Islam. Islam came to set a limit to polygamy for example prophet Ibrahim had 3 wifes Solomon had 700 wives the bible and the jewish scripture both premit polygamy its only later that laws were passed to limit the Jews to one wife & the Christians as well by the church and Jewish rabbis.

Er, yes, I kind of do know what theology is, given that have a third level qualification in it...

Please explain why I need to provide a single verse or hadith? You have supplied plenty, all of them which are relevant to this discussion clearly outlining how women are not equal to men. You have not denied that women's testimony is considered not equal to men's in certain cases, or that women are not allowed be leaders of religion in the same way as men. You haven't denied that the marriage laws are different for men and women. So what purpose would it serve for me to provide further examples?

I certainly DO want to listen to you, but you are not speaking. You are not answering the question I have asked in several ways, which was "how can you give me these examples of inequality and then claim women are equal in Islam"? It is totally illogical to give examples of inequality and then claim equality - if you can't explain the contradiction, you shouldn't have made the claim in the first place.

I have no idea why women would choose to join a religion that discriminates against them. I have no idea why women would choose to be Muslim or Roman Catholic or Orthodox Jewish, but they do. Maybe some women like the security of being treated as less capable than men. I don't know, it's a mystery to me. But I certainly have no interest in such women telling me that they not discriminated against, because that's simply untrue.

Your "answer" about hijab is not an answer as to why men should not cover their upper bodies or their hair to prevent temptation on the part of women.

"The capacity of the Man to love is also larger then the women". The hilarious thing is that you actually don't seem to have the slightest idea how misogynistic and bigoted that is. I think you actually believe it...incredible

Regarding a woman having four husbands; I see, so four men "inserting a body part" into one woman could be problematical in terms of hygiene. But one man "inserting a body part" into four women would not be? Surely if the four men were faithful to their wife the way the four wives are expected to be faithful to their husband, there wouldn't be any greater danger of infection or disease? As you point out, in able to ensure the paternity of a child, the "poor man" would have to wait his turn. Not nine months; once a woman is pregnant with one man's child, she can have sex with other men. And so what if the "poor man" would have to wait for his turn; he could control himself...or wear a condom.

And no, the "poor woman" wouldn't have to spend the rest of her life being pregnant. It's up to a woman to decide if and when she will bear children. This is 2014, as I keep having to remind you.

Polygamy or polygyny are problematical ways of conducting relationships, but if you only allow polygamy and not polygyny, you are clearly discriminating against women. It's irrelevant that polygamy was practiced before Islam; the fact is that Islam recognises a difference in the rules for en and women. In favour of men. Hence - discrimination.

To finish, I will take it you have no intention of explaining your continual use of menstruation to explain reasons why women aren't allowed do certain things men don't do. I won't ask again; your failure to answer says it all.

Defender OF Faith

katydid wrote: »

.......

My replay should be in your email i think just like the last time as I have deleted it, to edit it slightly and repost it however the edited version was lost as I refreshed the page by mistake. The one that is sent to your email should suffice.

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

My replay should be in your email i think just like the last time as I have deleted it, to edit it slightly and repost it however the edited version was lost as I refreshed the page by mistake. The one that is sent to your email should suffice.

All I have in my email is this message. Maybe you could tell me what is different in the edited version of your post? Anything new?

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

My replay should be in your email i think just like the last time as I have deleted it, to edit it slightly and repost it however the edited version was lost as I refreshed the page by mistake. The one that is sent to your email should suffice.

There's not much point in posting something to my email and then expecting me to respond to it when you've deleted it... Nobody can see what you wrote, and neither can I, without going back and forth to my email. So I'll repost here what I got in my email, so I can respond to it properly.

You wrote "the verse deals *ONLY*with *TRANSACTIONS* -sorry for caps but it's important you get this across- and hence this is the only setting where this ruling applies. The relevant wording implies, that in general, transactions were not *often matters of concern to women* at that time. It also indicates that the actual witness would be one woman. As such her testimony is *legally acceptable*.

Lets think about it this logically & rationally now.
Lets say a single women witnessed a transaction, she would not need to worry about this again until the time she is called to testify, she would go home take care of her kids,husband and house she could get pregnant and go through her menstrual cycle several time.

The man is out there working consistently thinking about this transaction as he needs the money to feed his family, one year later the Judge calls the women to testify, however due to the busy nature of her life she could not remember exactly, the man hence loose the money he was always thinking about.

Just because you need someone to remind you it does not mean you are less equal then a him.
If you ask your Husband to remind you to buy the milk once you go shopping does that make you any equal then him? of course no you assumed the possibility of forgetting and the risk associated with and wanted extra assurance not to forget. Now just think about a transaction and how important is it and the risks associated with it since it's people hard earned money we are talking about here.

Islam understand the busy event and nature of a women's life and the possibility that she might forget about this transaction since after all looking after money is not a women job and hence said that a second women to remind the first is necessary if the women can remember then she is not needed.
---End Quote---
I cant believe that am posting the exact same answer from 7 days ago showing that we have not progressed at all. "

1. What do you mean "ONLY" with transactions? The point you don't seem to grasp is that the verse is telling us that women are not capable of giving testimony in this circumstance in the same way as men.

The excuses about busy lives are nonsense; don't men have busy lives too? Do men never need to be reminded of anything?

And "go through her menstrual cycle???? I am not even going to waste my time asking what on earth that has to do with anything, since you clearly have no intention of answering. You talk of logic and rationality, and then go on about menstrual cycles???

Fifteen hundred years ago, there might be some excuse for saying that business transactions are "not often of concern to women". This is 2014, and business transactions are often the concern of woman. And are often not the concern of men. It's nonsense to be using that as an excuse to justify, in 2014, a patent example of women not being treated equally with men.


"Looking after money is not a woman's job"! Are you for real?

I can't believe that a man living in this country in 2014 can write such sexist nonsense.

Defender OF Faith

katydid wrote: »

1. What do you mean "ONLY" with transactions? The point you don't seem to grasp is that the verse is telling us that women are not capable of giving testimony in this circumstance in the same way as men.

This is the conclusion that you would arrive to due to your limited understanding of the Islamic text and the Arabic language the true conclusion however is as follows:

"there is no difference between men and women in terms of their abilities, their propensity to forget, in the possibility of their colluding to present false witness, or in their ability to speak either the truth or fabrication. Moreover, the objectives of the Qur'an do not include anything that would indicate otherwise. Therefore, there is no evidence to suggest that there is anything other than equality between the sexes."

You will understand this conclusion and how it came about once you read the explanation of the verse provided again for the 2nd time:http://www.alhewar.com/TahaTestimony.htm

katydid wrote: »

"Looking after money is not a woman's job"! Are you for real?.

1400 years ago it was not, hence that's why the testimony of one women is legally accepted, stop twisting my words out of their context

Also I have sent you a PM that include the E-mail of a brother working with Discover Islam, you can direct your queries to him, he's better qualified and has more experience then I am when it comings to these topics and should be able to provide much clearer answers then I can.

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

This is the conclusion that you would arrive to due to your limited understanding of the Islamic text and the Arabic language the true conclusion however is as follows:

"there is no difference between men and women in terms of their abilities, their propensity to forget, in the possibility of their colluding to present false witness, or in their ability to speak either the truth or fabrication. Moreover, the objectives of the Qur'an do not include anything that would indicate otherwise. Therefore, there is no evidence to suggest that there is anything other than equality between the sexes."

You will understand this conclusion and how it came about once you read the explanation of the verse provided again for the 2nd time:http://www.alhewar.com/TahaTestimony.htm



1400 years ago it was not, hence that's why the testimony of one women is legally accepted, stop twisting my words out of their context

Also I have sent you a PM that include the E-mail of a brother working with Discover Islam, you can direct your queries to him, he's better qualified and has more experience then I am when it comings to these topics and should be able to provide much clearer answers then I can.

My understanding of Arabic is not limited, it is non-existent. But my understanding of English is just fine, and you cited the relevant text in English, not Arabic.

If "there is no difference between men and women in terms of their abilities, their propensity to forget, in the possibility of their colluding to present false witness, or in their ability to speak either the truth or fabrication" why do you keep referring to the fact that women have such busy lives and "are not concerned with money" as a reason why their testimony could be questioned, and the testimony of a second woman required?

You are constantly making statements and then contradicting themselves.

Fourteen hundred years of fifteen hundred years; a hundred years is unimportant in the great scheme of things. The point is that it was A LONG TIME AGO...

You are clearly out of your depth at this stage, and uncomfortable when your inconsistency is pointed out. Instead of recommending that I should consult a scholar, it sounds like you have a bit of learning and studying to do, especially in the area of debate and logic.

Defender OF Faith

I see that lately you have not said anything beneficial to add to this talk that's worth discussing, other then simply regurgitating old statements over and over again, which is unfortunate as I expected you to present the Infamous verse 34 chapter 4 or the issue regarding inheritance, but your inability to read and probably comprehend what I have said made you go in circles bring up discussions we last discussed more then 7 days ago!

katydid wrote: »

why do you keep referring to the fact that women have such busy lives and "are not concerned with money" as a reason why their testimony could be questioned, and the testimony of a second woman required?

Dont take my references out of context, show me the contexts and the statements that include them and how they are contradictory.

I referred to Islam taking into consideration a women busy life style only ONCE when explaining the verse regarding the testimony in the following post:

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Islam is the same at all times and ages regardless of whether this is the 30th century or the 1st century people just need to follow Islam, if there's a dispute there are 4 schools of Islamic jurisprudence that deals with different interpretation of a said verse.
These instances you see of women inequality Islam is innocent of them, as I explained such cases occurs in societies due to the cultural norm of that specific society and not because of Islam.
The best case of this is honour killing, that has no basis in Islam. It was something the Arabs before Islam used to practice as they viewed having a female child would bring a shame to the family and killing her would restore their honour, the Quran described their evil practice by saying:

"And when the news of the birth of a female child is brought to any of them, his face become dark, and he is filled with inward grief!.
He hides himself from the people because of the evil that whereof he has been informed. Shall he keep her with dishonour or bury her in earth? certainly, evil is their decision"14:58-59

Islam came and put a stop to that, however in some part of the world today were its people claim Islam they still practice that these are the black sheep of society, they are found in every religion and I repeat and say that Islam should not be blamed for their action since it's clearly against what they are doing.


This mean that you have not really read past that point once you got what you needed however I might need to simplify stuff slightly.

The verse deals ONLYwith TRANSACTIONS -sorry for caps but it's important you get this across- and hence this is the only setting where this ruling applies. The relevant wording implies, that in general, transactions were not often matters of concern to women at that time. It also indicates that the actual witness would be one woman. As such her testimony is legally acceptable.

Lets think about it this logically & rationally now.
Lets say a single women witnessed a transaction, she would not need to worry about this again until the time she is called to testify, she would go home take care of her kids,husband and house she could get pregnant and go through her menstrual cycle several time.

The man is out there working consistently thinking about this transaction as he needs the money to feed his family, one year later the Judge calls the women to testify, however due to the busy nature of her life she could not remember exactly, the man hence loose the money he was always thinking about.

Just because you need someone to remind you it does not mean you are less equal then a him.
If you ask your Husband to remind you to buy the milk once you go shopping does that make you any equal then him? of course no you assumed the possibility of forgetting and the risk associated with and wanted extra assurance not to forget. Now just think about a transaction and how important is it and the risks associated with it since it's people hard earned money we are talking about here.

Islam understand the busy event and nature of a women's life and the possibility that she might forget about this transaction since after all looking after money is not a women job and hence said that a second women to remind the first is necessary if the women can remember then she is not needed.


Madam in Islam we do not put you only on a pedestal we put you on top of our head, a whole chapter in the Quran is called "the chapter of Women" and "The chapter of Mary" you mention that other Christian denomination treat women equally but why? because they disregard the part of the scriptures that say treat women as non-equal then men.
In Islam we don't need to do that as all interpretation of pure Islam meaning Islam without interference from cultural and social norms, treat women with equality.

~Except maybe Shiaa sect of Islam due to their "Nikah mut‘ah" whereby you can basically marry a women purely for sex simply a sex object, without the intention of having a real relationship or starting a family with her which is forbidden in Sunni Islam. the largest and main branch of Islam and the largest religious denomination for any religion in the world.

The Qur'an, was directed toward a people who, before its revelation, had little or no regard for women and who did not allow their inclusion in matters considered the domain of men. In fact pre-Islamic Arab society sanctioned female infanticide. this was therefore an attempt by me to try and explain why in some situations a second women may be required, as by the nature of the time a women lifestyle was completely unrealeted to the man's who typically deals with such issue.
However if you couldn't make sense of what I said I invite you to read the article to clarify what I have failed to try and do.


Read the article when you have time so that you might finally understand the issue regarding the testimony and come to the conclusion that there's no inequality between the sexes regarding it: http://www.alhewar.com/TahaTestimony.htm

katydid wrote: »

You are clearly out of your depth at this stage, and uncomfortable when your inconsistency is pointed out.

You have yet to point out or shown a SINGLE inconsistency or contradiction I had, rather you keep bringing up and writing empty statements which you have not backed up using my quotes or what I have said please do so I can make it clear or rather apologise in case you are correct. My position through this talk was the same that Islam does not discriminate against women I haven't change my position or contradicted it by posting verse that goes against what I said.

Am not really out of debth just that there is nothing new to discuss as you have not introduced any new issue lately due to your continual reference to old issues we already discussed.

katydid wrote: »

Instead of recommending that I should consult a scholar, it sounds like you have a bit of learning and studying to do, especially in the area of debate and logic.

#1) In the Quran it says "and ask the people of reminder and knowledge if you do not know" am not a scholar nor did I say I was but rather am a student of knowledge and comparative religion who is trying to study and understand his religion while at the same time continue my 3rd level education, that's why I sent you that email and directed you toward someone more qualified then me to answer your questions and queries in a way probably much better then I can.


#2)Your second statement is very, very ironic, your highness the person whom over and over again proved his inability to comprehend and read probably what is written proven by the fact that I had to repost something from 7 days ago for you to finally comprehend.
Including the fact that you so far have not brought a single verse or hadith to support your statement or claims and yet call this a debate oh god the irony, and speaking about Logic while your the one asking me why a women cannot marry 4 men or why a women should cover herself more then a man, questions that you could of answered your self if you though about them logically but since you are unable to I had to help you out and provide a logical answer which you have so far not managed to refute.



We both have alot to learn Madam, yet however I blame myself for not writing clearly and choosing my examples better; that's why I felt the need to let someone else more experienced then I am while I as you said continue my studies, I think you should have received his email by now dont hesitate to email him if you still wish to explore these questions more.

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

I see that lately you have not said anything beneficial to add to this talk that's worth discussing, other then simply regurgitating old statements over and over again, which is unfortunate as I expected you to present the Infamous verse 34 chapter 4 or the issue regarding inheritance, but your inability to read and probably comprehend what I have said made you go in circles bring up discussions we last discussed more then 7 days ago!


Dont take my references out of context, show me the contexts and the statements that include them and how they are contradictory , as I never said women Busy life as a definitive reason but that at the time women had more important things in the life then taking care of transactions. Have you even read the link I provided?!


Show me one statement that I have said which shows I contradicted my self. Show me examples and not empty and shallow words, since I never contradicted my self as my position though out was always the same.


You have yet to point out or shown a SINGLE inconsistency I had rather you keep bringing up and writing empty statements which you have not backed up using my quotes or what I have said. There is nothing new to discuss as you have not introduced any new issue lately due to your continual reference to old issues we already discussed.



#1) In the Quran it says "and ask the people of reminder and knowledge if you do not know" am not a scholar nor did I say I was but rather am a student of knowledge and comparative religion who is trying to study and understand his religion while at the same time continue my 3rd level education, that's why I sent you that email and directed you toward someone more qualified then me to answer your questions and queries in a way probably much better then I can.


#2)Your second statement is very, very ironic, your highness the person whom over and over again proved his inability to comprehend and read probably what is written proven by the fact that I had to repost something from 7 days ago for you to finally comprehend.
Including the fact that you so far have not brought a single verse or hadith to support your statement or claims and yet call this a debate oh god the irony, and speaking about Logic while your the one asking me why a women cannot marry 4 men or why a women should cover herself more then a man, questions that you could of answered your self if you though about them logically but since you are unable to I had to help you out and provide a logical answer which you have so far not managed to refute.



You have alot to learn Madam in the area of debate, comprehension and logic.

"our the one asking me why a women cannot marry 4 men or why a women should cover herself more then a man, questions that you could of answered your self if you though about them logically"

I did think about them logically. And, when I did so, I asked you some logical questions, which you have ignored.

You ask me to give you examples of how you contradict yourself. I have. Already. Listed them out one by one, with the same question after each example. Maybe you missed the post, so I'll copy and paste the examples again.

"1. Let's take the first one. You "explained" that a woman would need "reminding" by someone else because of family life and menstruation. A load of nonsense. Women lead busy lives. So do men. Your religion clearly believes that women are not capable of giving true testimony in the same way as men. I'm asking how how you can reconcile that with a claim that women are equal to men.

2. You "explained" that women couldn't be Imams because of family duty and menstruation. (Menstruation is getting to be a bit of a pattern here, and you still haven't explained its significance). I pointed out that both men and women are capable of childcare and looking after their families, and that not all women are married or have children. You failed to address these points, and you haven't explained how you reconcile your claim about the equality of women with this clear example of something men are allowed to do which women are not.

3. You have not answered WHY women have to cover themselves more than men. I pointed out that many women would find men's hair or chests or faces attractive, and therefore, based on the reasons you outlined for covering up, men should cover themselves on the same basis as women have to. But they don't. How how you can reconcile that with a claim that women are equal to men?

4. The fact is that men can marry up to four wives, but women can only marry one husband. Whatever the reason for that, it is a clear inequality between men and women. As for the argument that women would or wouldn't mind being married to more than one man, one could ask the same of any man. If women are expected to be faithful to one man in marriage, so should men. "


The only thing I am regurgitating is one simple question, a question you refuse to answer. It is illogical to provide several examples of how women are treated differently to men, in a way that they are either not valued in the same way, or are that they are not allowed to do the same thing as men - and then claim that men and women are equal. To invoke logic and reason and to display such illogic is farcical.

Yet you consistently refuse to explain this contradiction. As I said, it seems you are out of your depth in this discussion; it's very easy to make statements, not so easy to back them up.

You claim your statements are out of context, but you don't explain the context, other than to say that they were written in the past. That certainly would contextualise it if you then admitted that Islam had to adapt these strictures to the modern day. But your misogynistic statements such as that women's "busy lives" mean they might forget and need the support of another witness, and the outrageous statement that "the capacity of men to love is larger".

I have no idea what verse about inheritance you are referring to, but I've no idea why you think I should need to quote it. You've supplied me with more than enough examples of how women are not treated as the equals of men!

Defender OF Faith

katydid wrote: »

"1. Let's take the first one. You "explained" that a woman would need "reminding" by someone else because of family life and menstruation. A load of nonsense. Women lead busy lives. So do men. Your religion clearly believes that women are not capable of giving true testimony in the same way as men. I'm asking how how you can reconcile that with a claim that women are equal to men.

So how did I contradict my self here? you just presented a statement that you do not agree with that's all and not a statement that I have contradicted my self with.

I referred to Islam taking into consideration a women busy life style only ONCE when explaining the verse regarding the testimony in the following post:

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Islam is the same at all times and ages regardless of whether this is the 30th century or the 1st century people just need to follow Islam, if there's a dispute there are 4 schools of Islamic jurisprudence that deals with different interpretation of a said verse.
These instances you see of women inequality Islam is innocent of them, as I explained such cases occurs in societies due to the cultural norm of that specific society and not because of Islam.
The best case of this is honour killing, that has no basis in Islam. It was something the Arabs before Islam used to practice as they viewed having a female child would bring a shame to the family and killing her would restore their honour, the Quran described their evil practice by saying:

"And when the news of the birth of a female child is brought to any of them, his face become dark, and he is filled with inward grief!.
He hides himself from the people because of the evil that whereof he has been informed. Shall he keep her with dishonour or bury her in earth? certainly, evil is their decision"14:58-59

Islam came and put a stop to that, however in some part of the world today were its people claim Islam they still practice that these are the black sheep of society, they are found in every religion and I repeat and say that Islam should not be blamed for their action since it's clearly against what they are doing.


This mean that you have not really read past that point once you got what you needed however I might need to simplify stuff slightly.

The verse deals ONLYwith TRANSACTIONS -sorry for caps but it's important you get this across- and hence this is the only setting where this ruling applies. The relevant wording implies, that in general, transactions were not often matters of concern to women at that time. It also indicates that the actual witness would be one woman. As such her testimony is legally acceptable.

Lets think about it this logically & rationally now.
Lets say a single women witnessed a transaction, she would not need to worry about this again until the time she is called to testify, she would go home take care of her kids,husband and house she could get pregnant and go through her menstrual cycle several time.

The man is out there working consistently thinking about this transaction as he needs the money to feed his family, one year later the Judge calls the women to testify, however due to the busy nature of her life she could not remember exactly, the man hence loose the money he was always thinking about.

Just because you need someone to remind you it does not mean you are less equal then a him.
If you ask your Husband to remind you to buy the milk once you go shopping does that make you any equal then him? of course no you assumed the possibility of forgetting and the risk associated with and wanted extra assurance not to forget. Now just think about a transaction and how important is it and the risks associated with it since it's people hard earned money we are talking about here.

Islam understand the busy event and nature of a women's life and the possibility that she might forget about this transaction since after all looking after money is not a women job and hence said that a second women to remind the first is necessary if the women can remember then she is not needed.


Madam in Islam we do not put you only on a pedestal we put you on top of our head, a whole chapter in the Quran is called "the chapter of Women" and "The chapter of Mary" you mention that other Christian denomination treat women equally but why? because they disregard the part of the scriptures that say treat women as non-equal then men.
In Islam we don't need to do that as all interpretation of pure Islam meaning Islam without interference from cultural and social norms, treat women with equality.

~Except maybe Shiaa sect of Islam due to their "Nikah mut‘ah" whereby you can basically marry a women purely for sex simply a sex object, without the intention of having a real relationship or starting a family with her which is forbidden in Sunni Islam. the largest and main branch of Islam and the largest religious denomination for any religion in the world.

The Qur'an, was directed toward a people who, before its revelation, had little or no regard for women and who did not allow their inclusion in matters considered the domain of men. In fact pre-Islamic Arab society sanctioned female infanticide. this was therefore an attempt by me to try and explain why in some situations a second women may be required, as by the nature of the time a women lifestyle was completely unrealeted to the man's who typically deals with such issue.
However if you couldn't make sense of what I said I invite you to read the article to clarify what I have failed to try and do.


Read the article when you have time so that you might finally understand the issue regarding the testimony and come to the conclusion that there's no inequality between the sexes regarding it: http://www.alhewar.com/TahaTestimony.htm

katydid wrote: »

2. You "explained" that women couldn't be Imams because of family duty and menstruation. (Menstruation is getting to be a bit of a pattern here, and you still haven't explained its significance). I pointed out that both men and women are capable of childcare and looking after their families, and that not all women are married or have children.

Again I see no inconsistency with what I have said since I have never said that women cannot be Imam because of family duty and menstruation show me where I specified this as the main reason, as what you should be attacking me on is the main reason as to why women cannot lead the prayer rather then peripheral reasons I gave which in some circumstances supports the main reason.

katydid wrote: »

3. You have not answered WHY women have to cover themselves more than men. I pointed out that many women would find men's hair or chests or faces attractive, and therefore, based on the reasons you outlined for covering up, men should cover themselves on the same basis as women have to. But they don't. How how you can reconcile that with a claim that women are equal to men?

Already answered 5 times so far and to this point I have not received your feedback regarding the answer I gave

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

well let me ask you this first as it will help me in answering your question.
Why do women in the west where they have been equated with men cover their breasts and men don't if they are as the west claim equal?

katydid wrote: »

Women in the west cover their breasts because it is a tradition that has existed for a long time, even before the Christian era. There is no religious prohibition on it.

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

And yet they still cover their breast why you tell me? because it's a tradition; making it appear that women in the west don't really care about their modesty or shame. However Islam cares deeply about a women modesty and shame, and hence orders the Hijab to be worn by her and that does not make her any less equal then a man, who does not have to do this.
Just like western men who do not cover their chest, are no less equal then western women that do cover their chest.

katydid wrote: »

4. The fact is that men can marry up to four wives, but women can only marry one husband. Whatever the reason for that, it is a clear inequality between men and women. As for the argument that women would or wouldn't mind being married to more than one man, one could ask the same of any man. If women are expected to be faithful to one man in marriage, so should men. "

I didnt present this as an argument + I have already answered you regarding this issue.

I have said as part of your original quote with my words inserted:

"If a woman was married to four men, how would it be any less shocking than a man married to four women? I sense a double standard here.[What do you think you or your female friends will say if you ask them whether they wouldn't mind being married to more then one man and tell me how many of them even remotely or has a 0.0+n chance of considering before I explain]"
Hence it was not an argument I presented rather a question that I was planning to build my actual answer upon.

katydid wrote: »

The only thing I am regurgitating is one simple question, a question you refuse to answer. It is illogical to provide several examples of how women are treated differently to men, in a way that they are either not valued in the same way, or are that they are not allowed to do the same thing as men - and then claim that men and women are equal. To invoke logic and reason and to display such illogic is farcical.

Again show me where I have provided such examples to support your accusation.

katydid wrote: »

Yet you consistently refuse to explain this contradiction. As I said, it seems you are out of your depth in this discussion; it's very easy to make statements, not so easy to back them up.

How can I explain something you cannot even present. Present my contradiction using my Original quote and what I have said so that I can replay.

katydid wrote: »

But your misogynistic statements such as that women's "busy lives" mean they might forget and need the support of another witness, and the outrageous statement that "the capacity of men to love is larger".

Let me give you a basic definition for the word "Misogyny" as it appears that you actually do not know what it means.

Misogyny: dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.
Explain to me how are statements, such as "women busy life" or "man capacity to love is larger" which you might have understood as I meant it to express how a man is capable of loving more then one women and hence throughout history was the subject of polygamy while a women can only give their full love and attention to one man. You can consider this as empirical evidence based on the observation of history and the relationship between man and women, I dont think so far in history a case exist where a single women was married to more then 1 man.
So now can you explain to me how these statements in any way incite hatred and prejudice against women?

katydid wrote: »

I have no idea what verse about inheritance you are referring to, but I've no idea why you think I should need to quote it. You've supplied me with more than enough examples of how women are not treated as the equals of men!

Are you deluded or something? show me one example that I have provided were women are treated differently then men. YOU were providing examples and I was explaining .


I suggest that you stop wasting your time engaging with me since it I have sent you and referred you to someone who's much more qualified and experienced then me, he should be able to answer you in a much better way while avoiding the "inconsistencies" and "contradictions" I have provided. It's like arguing with your tutor while your professor calls you.
Since I have said that we both have alot to learn , yet however I blame myself for not writing clearly and choosing my examples better; that's why I felt the need to let someone else more experienced then I am while I as you said continue my studies, I think you should have received his email by now dont hesitate to email him when you find the time.

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

So how did I contradict my self here? you just presented a statement that you do not agree with that's all and not a statement that I have contradicted my self with.

I referred to Islam taking into consideration a women busy life style only ONCE when explaining the verse regarding the testimony in the following post:


The Qur'an, was directed toward a people who, before its revelation, had little or no regard for women and who did not allow their inclusion in matters considered the domain of men. In fact pre-Islamic Arab society sanctioned female infanticide. this was therefore an attempt by me to try and explain why in some situations a second women may be required, as by the nature of the time a women lifestyle was completely unrealeted to the man's who typically deals with such issue.
However if you couldn't make sense of what I said I invite you to read the article to clarify what I have failed to try and do.


Read the article when you have time so that you might finally understand the issue regarding the testimony and come to the conclusion that there's no inequality between the sexes regarding it: http://www.alhewar.com/TahaTestimony.htm






Again I see no inconsistency with what I have said since I have never said that women cannot be Imam because of family duty and menstruation show me where I specified this as the main reason, as what you should be attacking me on is the main reason as to why women cannot lead the prayer rather then peripheral reasons I gave which in some circumstances supports the main reason.

katydid wrote: »

3. You have not answered WHY women have to cover themselves more than men. I pointed out that many women would find men's hair or chests or faces attractive, and therefore, based on the reasons you outlined for covering up, men should cover themselves on the same basis as women have to. But they don't. How how you can reconcile that with a claim that women are equal to men?/

Already answered 5 times so far and to this point I have not received your feedback regarding the answer I gave









I didnt present this as an argument + I have already answered you regarding this issue.

I have said as part of your original quote with my words inserted:

"If a woman was married to four men, how would it be any less shocking than a man married to four women? I sense a double standard here.[What do you think you or your female friends will say if you ask them whether they wouldn't mind being married to more then one man and tell me how many of them even remotely or has a 0.0+n chance of considering before I explain]"
Hence it was not an argument I presented rather a question that I was planning to build my actual answer upon.


Again show me where I have provided such examples to support your accusation.

How can I explain something you cannot even present. Present my contradiction using my Original quote and what I have said so that I can replay.



Let me give you a basic definition for the word "Misogyny" as it appears that you actually do not know what it means.

Misogyny: dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.
Explain to me how are statements, such as "man capacity to love is larger" or "women busy life" are in any incite hatred and prejudice against women.



Are you deluded or something? show me one example that I have provided were women are treated differently then men. YOU were providing examples and I was explaining .

You contradict yourself by telling me about a situation where Islam says that a woman's testimony can't be trusted. It may be one instance, but one instance is more than enough. IN THIS INSTANCE, Islam does not see women as equal to men. It's illogical to say that Islam doesn't discriminate against women because it discriminates only once!

You are absolutely right, the Qur'an was directed to a people who didn't have much regard for women. And, as this example shows, it perpetuated this attitude. Once, twice or a million times, it doesn't matter.

"have never said that women cannot be Imam because of family duty and menstruation"

Yes, you did. You said it way back, I really can't go back and find it. But let's say you didn't say it was the MAIN reason; you certain said it was a reason. You offered no other reason. There IS no other reason other than prejudice and bigotry against women.

I fail to see how your points about women covering their breasts answers my question about MEN covering their upper bodies and hair...


"Misogyny: dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.
Explain to me how are statements, such as "man capacity to love is larger" or "women busy life" are in any incite hatred and prejudice against women."

You have to actually ask how "men have a greater capacity to love" is not misogynistic? Seriously? And using an excuse that "women have busy lives" to claim they "might forget" is absolutely bigoted and ridiculous. Do men not have busy lives; are they not just as likely to forget?

"Hence it was not an argument I presented rather a question that I was planning to build my actual answer upon."

Right...and your actual "answer" involved some convoluted idea about "body parts" and disease, women being condemned to perpetual childbearing, and a "poor man" having to do without sex for a few months. I mean, the fact that you don't even grasp how sexist and bigoted that is says it all... What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If men can "insert their body parts" in four wives, why can't women have "body parts" inserted in them by four husbands? Logic, my friend, logic...

Defender OF Faith

katydid wrote: »

You contradict yourself by telling me about a situation where Islam says that a woman's testimony can't be trusted. It may be one instance, but one instance is more than enough. IN THIS INSTANCE, Islam does not see women as equal to men. It's illogical to say that Islam doesn't discriminate against women because it discriminates only once!

A situation you have said it your self, go read what that situation was because it really doesn't exist were by a women can forget about a transaction in this day and age. However at the time because women were not included in the affairs of men and transactions were considered the affairs of women, forgetting was a possibility. This was the situation, show me how is that unfair and unjust? If the women forgets since at the time it was non of her business to begin with, what do we tell the man get lost your money is gone?


Read the article when you have time so that you might finally understand the issue regarding the testimony and come to the conclusion that there's no inequality between the sexes regarding it: http://www.alhewar.com/TahaTestimony.htm

katydid wrote: »

You are absolutely right, the Qur'an was directed to a people who didn't have much regard for women.

And managed to transform this poor women who had little to no regard in society to giving her the full rights that took the European women more then a thousand year to obtain.

katydid wrote: »

"have never said that women cannot be Imam because of family duty and menstruation"

Yes, you did. You said it way back, I really can't go back and find it. But let's say you didn't say it was the MAIN reason; you certain said it was a reason. You offered no other reason.

After reviewing what I have said I realised that I never said that family duty and menstruation was even a reason to begin with, lol you even fooled me into believing something which I haven't wrote.

I have said in page 5 your 5th comment the following:

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

"A women leader in Islam as I understand from what you are saying is someone who:
1)Lead the prayer for both men and women.
2)Teach both men and women about Islam.
3)Help both men and women spiritually.

Number 2 and number 3 are a definite yes, absolutely and there's nothing wrong from an Islamic prospective in them doing so however certain tribes ,laws and social norm might stand in their way but it's important to emphasis such factors have nothing to do with Islam and in a official Islamic state they have the full right to do such activities.

Hence the full activities of leadership that concerns you as a non-Muslim can be performed by a women.

Also if to this point you have no idea of how the 5 daily prayers are formed a muslim brother has made this excellent video to non-Muslims about how the Muslim pray:

Regarding number one however this is where you might not like the answer, before I begin I would like to remind you with what I have said earlier, that
God has singled out men for some virtues and rulings, and He has singled out women for other virtues and rulings.

It is not permissible for any man to wish for that which has been granted to women only, nor is it permissible for any woman to wish for that which has been granted to men.
This kind of wishing is tantamount to objecting to the laws and rulings of God.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And wish not for the things in which Allaah has made some of you to excel others. For men there is reward for what they have earned, (and likewise) for women there is reward for what they have earned, and ask Allaah of His Bounty. Surely, Allaah is Ever All‑Knower of everything”
[al-Nisa’ 4:32]

Leadership in the 5 daily Muslim prayer is something Islam blessed the man with, this doesn't reduce the rights of the Muslim women to lead in any area she like.


An Imam of a mosque that leaders the congregation on the 5 daily prayer is a job he's paid to do and performs along with other duties he's responsible for as well since I have previously mentioned that the prophet have said:
The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“Do not prevent your women from attending the mosques, although their houses are better for them.”

This naturally mean that a women attends the mosque far less then a man, who's obliged to do so; hence why it's the obligation of a man to lead men in the prayer. The down prayer for example( at 6am) may have 10-15 men and usually not a women in sight, for this reason it's the responsibility of a Man to lead other men and if present women in prayer.

A women may of course lead other women in prayer."

Where is menstruation or family duty?! because I certainly cannot see it anywhere, I think its because I have written alot that am confusing where I have included certain references and where I have not.

katydid wrote: »

I fail to see how your points about women covering their breasts answers my question about MEN covering their upper bodies and hair...

Read again specially the bolded part:

katydid wrote: »

Women in the west cover their breasts because it is a tradition that has existed for a long time, even before the Christian era. There is no religious prohibition on it.

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

And yet they still cover their breast why you tell me? because it's a tradition; making it appear that women in the west don't really care about their modesty or shame. However Islam cares deeply about a women modesty and shame, and hence orders the Hijab to be worn by her and that does not make her any less equal then a man, who does not have to do this.
Just like western men who do not cover their chest, are no less equal then western women that do cover their chest.

katydid wrote: »

You have to actually ask how "men have a greater capacity to love" is not misogynistic? Seriously?

"man capacity to love is larger" you might have miss-understood what I actually meant, as I meant it to express how a man is capable of loving more then one women and hence throughout history was the subject of polygamy while a women can only give their full love and attention to one man. You can consider this as empirical evidence based on the observation of history and the relationship between man and women, I dont think so far in history a case exist where a single women was married to more then 1 man.

katydid wrote: »

And using an excuse that "women have busy lives" to claim they "might forget" is absolutely bigoted and ridiculous. Do men not have busy lives; are they not just as likely to forget?

#1)Your emotions are getting out of control that you are using the wrong nouns to insult me, Bigot is directed toward someone who is intolerant of others ideas and opinions, how is saying that a women has a busy life intolerable toward any idea or opinion? unless of course you believe that women do not lead busy lives which would then make you the Bigot.

#2)Your taking my words out of contexts again, my comment about their busy life was made in the contexts of the way women lead their life 1400 years ago to explain how a 2nd testimony might be needed since at that time women were excluded from the affairs of men and transactions were not typically something they are involved in, thus the way she lead her life at the time away from all these things could lead her to forget.

Read what I said again and put it into context then go read the article I have provided:

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Lets say a single women witnessed a transaction, she would not need to worry about this again until the time she is called to testify, she would go home take care of her kids,husband and house she could get pregnant and go through her menstrual cycle several time.

The man is out there working consistently thinking about this transaction as he needs the money to feed his family, one year later the Judge calls the women to testify, however due to the busy nature of her life she could not remember exactly, the man hence loose the money he was always thinking about.

Just because you need someone to remind you it does not mean you are less equal then a him.
If you ask your Husband to remind you to buy the milk once you go shopping does that make you any equal then him? of course no you assumed the possibility of forgetting and the risk associated with and wanted extra assurance not to forget. Now just think about a transaction and how important is it and the risks associated with it since it's people hard earned money we are talking about here.

Islam understand the busy event and nature of a women's life This was referring to the busy event and nature of a women's life at the time when this verse was revealed and the possibility that she might forget about this transaction since after all looking after money is not a women job and hence said that a second women to remind the first is necessary if the women can remember then she is not needed."

Read the article when you have time so that you might finally understand the issue regarding the testimony and come to the conclusion that there's no inequality between the sexes regarding it: http://www.alhewar.com/TahaTestimony.htm

katydid wrote: »

Right...and your actual "answer" involved some convoluted idea about "body parts" and disease, women being condemned to perpetual childbearing, and a "poor man" having to do without sex for a few months.

Very intelligent and logical way to break someone's argument. I mean seriously you tell me that I need to learn how to debate while so far I have responded to ALL your comments by providing an actual quotation of them and then refuting them. Re-phrase that in an intelligent manner presenting my argument above so I can read your refutation in context because what you have just said does not resemble what I put forth but was rather a poor attempt to paraphrase my words into a context that suits you.

Here's what I said so you dont waste time looking for it:

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

"I was avoiding a direct answer to this because I was hoping that you understand how seriously sick what your suggesting is, having 4 men insert their body part into the same part, not only increases the risks of transmitting diseases as studies have shown exposure to semen appears to increase the risk of cervical cancer so imagine the risks involved in the women getting exposed to the semen of 4 different men. It's also is disgraceful to the women itself and your western society is a proof of this. A women that sleep with multiple men is shunned upon while a man is treated as a legend.

Lets think about this logically first before moving into what Islam has to say about this.

Suppose a women is married to 4 men, man A,B,C,D all wants children.
To begin with it will lead to hassle just to determine who's the father of this child, but each poor man would have to wait 9 month to bear a child of his own, the women cannot obviously bear the child as soon as she delivers the baby of her first man, she would probably wait for at least a year before making another child with man B, hence each man would need to wait nearly 2 years before having his child, let alone those who want more then one child. The poor women will need to spend the rest of her life being pregnant and delivering babies but I don't think you care as long as you get your "equality".

The capacity of the Man to love is also larger then the women, and society is a testimony to this.
A man could have a relationship with multiple women at the same time, while when a women have a serious affair its usually only with a single man, how do you expect this poor women to love 4 different men at the same time? again I don't think you really care though as long as you get your "equality"

Lets look at what Islam says about this:

"Qur'an (4:3) - "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four" Inequality by numbers"

"how many wifes have you got" is quite a humorous question a lot of the westerners ask the Arabs most of the time we answer by saying we got only one but its the solution to YOUR problem.
In America alone there are 7.8 million more women then men and obviously not all men will get married on top of that there are approximately 25 million men who are gays and hence ANOTHER 25m women cant get married/find a partner, 98% of the prison population are males so your problem is only getting more complicated while Islam is offering you a solution.

Quran is the only scripture which has the statement "marry only one" and you can only marry more if you can do JUSTICE between your wives in term of money,time and material things the quran it self acknowledge that doing justice in term of love is not entirely possible but that shouldn't make you unjust to another.

On another note you talk like Islam is the religion that introduced polygamy however it was practised centuries before Islam. Islam came to set a limit to polygamy for example prophet Ibrahim had 3 wife Solomon had 700 wives the bible and the Jewish scripture both permit polygamy its only later that laws were passed to limit the Jews to one wife & the Christians as well by the church and Jewish rabbis"

The part in Bold should be what interests you the most because its what actually Islam says about polygamy, the rules and issues regarding it.


Also to remind you that am not hear to argue with you am here to present the truth and remove the misconception you have regarding it as I repeat Islam is perfect and any imperfect thing that you find can be explained.
If you want to see the state of the world and how it flourished when Islam was in authority and caliphate was present, how women wear treated with the uttermost respect and honour; read about its prophet first the most perfect man to have walked this earth -I already presented books that I recommended-, read about his companions that practised Islam in its highest and purest form, you have a companion and the 4th Caliphate of Islam being dealt a fatal blow leaving the world while watching his killer, and orders his sons to feed him and treat him well, and says If I lived I will pass my judgement on him and if I died Killed him as a consequence of killing me and do not transgress, read about notable women in Islam, so you come to realise the beauty of this religion, that discrimination based on your sex does not exist. Read these stuff so you can arrive at a sound and well informed conclusion about Islam.

If you feel that am not doing a very good job explaining this, then I have referred you to someone who's more qualified then I am so that you might direct your queries regarding Islam to him.
Please dont hesitate to ask him, you can even compare the answer he gives you to my own.

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

A situation you have said it your self, go read what that situation was because it really doesn't exist were by a women can forget about a transaction in this day and age. However at the time because women were not included in the affairs of men and transactions were considered the affairs of women, forgetting was a possibility. This was the situation, show me how is that unfair and unjust? If the women forgets since at the time it was non of her business to begin with, what do we tell the man get lost your money is gone?


Read the article when you have time so that you might finally understand the issue regarding the testimony and come to the conclusion that there's no inequality between the sexes regarding it: http://www.alhewar.com/TahaTestimony.htm



And managed to transform this poor women who had little to no regard in society to giving her the full rights that took the European women more then a thousand year to obtain.



After reviewing what I have said I realised that I never said that family duty and menstruation was even a reason to begin with, lol you even fooled me into believing something which I haven't wrote.

I have said in page 5 your 5th comment the following:


Where is menstruation or family duty?! because I certainly cannot see it anywhere, I think its because I have written alot that am confusing where I have included certain references and where I have not.


Read again specially the bolded part:







"man capacity to love is larger" you might have miss-understood what I actually meant, as I meant it to express how a man is capable of loving more then one women and hence throughout history was the subject of polygamy while a women can only give their full love and attention to one man. You can consider this as empirical evidence based on the observation of history and the relationship between man and women, I dont think so far in history a case exist where a single women was married to more then 1 man.


#1)Your emotions are getting out of control that you are using the wrong nouns to insult me, Bigot is directed toward someone who is intolerant of others ideas and opinions, how is saying that a women has a busy life intolerable toward any idea or opinion? unless of course you believe that women do not lead busy lives which would then make you the Bigot.

#2)Your taking my words out of contexts again, my comment about their busy life was made in the contexts of the way women lead their life 1400 years ago to explain how a 2nd testimony might be needed since at that time women were excluded from the affairs of men and transactions were not typically something they are involved in, thus the way she lead her life at the time away from all these things could lead her to forget.

Read what I said again and put it into context then go read the article I have provided:


Read the article when you have time so that you might finally understand the issue regarding the testimony and come to the conclusion that there's no inequality between the sexes regarding it: http://www.alhewar.com/TahaTestimony.htm


Very intelligent and logical way to break someone's argument. I mean seriously you tell me that I need to learn how to debate while so far I have responded to ALL your comments by providing an actual quotation of them and then refuting them. Re-phrase that in an intelligent manner presenting my argument above so I can read your refutation in context because what you have just said does not resemble what I put forth but was rather a poor attempt to paraphrase my words into a context that suits you.

Here's what I said so you dont waste time looking for it:

The part in Bold should be what interests you the most because its what actually Islam says about polygamy, the rules and issues regarding it.


Also to remind you that am not hear to argue with you am here to present the truth and remove the misconception you have regarding it as I repeat Islam is perfect and any imperfect thing that you find can be explained.
If you want to see the state of the world and how it flourished when Islam was in authority and caliphate was present, how women wear treated with the uttermost respect and honour; read about its prophet first the most perfect man to have walked this earth -I already presented books that I recommended-, read about his companions that practised Islam in its highest and purest form, you have a companion and the 4th Caliphate of Islam being dealt a fatal blow leaving the world while watching his killer, and orders his sons to feed him and treat him well, and says If I lived I will pass my judgement on him and if I died Killed him as a consequence of killing me and do not transgress, read about notable women in Islam, so you come to realise the beauty of this religion, that discrimination based on your sex does not exist. Read these stuff so you can arrive at a sound and well informed conclusion about Islam.

If you feel that am not doing a very good job explaining this, then I have referred you to someone who's more qualified then I am so that you might direct your queries regarding Islam to him.
Please dont hesitate to ask him, you can even compare the answer he gives you to my own.

" read what that situation was because it really doesn't exist were by a women can forget about a transaction in this day and age."

Very true. But YOU claim that what is written in the Qur'an applies to every age. Are you now saying that Islam can INTERPRET the Qur'an and say categorically that this section does not apply in 2014?

""man capacity to love is larger" you might have miss-understood what I actually meant, as I meant it to express how a man is capable of loving more then one women "

No, I certainly didn't misunderstand. Your meaning was quite clear, and you repeated it again. A man is capable of loving more than one woman - are you seriously suggesting that a woman is incapable of loving more than one man? I suggest you look at the complicated relationships around you, and you'll find it's not as black and white as you think. Your understanding of men and women is very simplistic.


"Do not prevent your women from attending the mosques, although their houses are better for them.”

This naturally mean that a women attends the mosque far less then a man, who's obliged to do so"

Ok, so you didn't specifically mention menstruation here; it's just that you've mentioned it so often, and never explained the reason for mentioning it. But what you cited above clearly states that a woman's place is first and foremost in the home, and that that is why she's not required to attend the mosque. You have ignored my points about the fact that today, in 2014, men and women share household responsibility and childcare (or should), many women work outside the home, many are not married or don't have children, and that women in all these circumstances are perfectly able to lead prayers in the same way as any man. Yet nowhere in Islam does a woman lead daily prayers for her "brothers" and "sisters"

Defender OF Faith

katydid wrote: »

Very true. But YOU claim that what is written in the Qur'an applies to every age. Are you now saying that Islam can INTERPRET the Qur'an and say categorically that this section does not apply in 2014?

#1)You first need to understand that the Quran came to establish the important principle of gender equality,evidenet when God said:
O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.[49:13]


Hence this is the only scale in the sight of God that's god consciousness and piety, in which one person may be better then the other regardless of whether he's male or female; in the light of this statement the verse is discussed. The question that you asked is whether or not, on the basis of the verse's circumstantial context, the testimony of one woman may be accepted even when the teaching of the verse is that two women should testify, however due to the length it would take to explain how the verse did not bring inequality between the sexes I refereed you to the article , which to this point I invite you to read when you have the time so you do not simply skim over it to understand how this objective is archived.

article: http://www.alhewar.com/TahaTestimony.htm

Keep in mind while your reading,, that the Arabic language is very complex,beautiful and broad. 1 word could have several meaning depending on its context and hence it's difficult to translate arbaic while still keeping the beauty and meaning of the actual text. For example the first chapter of the Quran is only 24 words in Arabic however it takes 74 English words to translate this similarly how it takes 5 nouns to describe Islam, that's why the writer will constantly refer to the roots of different words used and what their possible meaning and use in the context of the verse.

katydid wrote: »

No, I certainly didn't misunderstand. Your meaning was quite clear, and you repeated it again. A man is capable of loving more than one woman - are you seriously suggesting that a woman is incapable of loving more than one man? I suggest you look at the complicated relationships around you, and you'll find it's not as black and white as you think. Your understanding of men and women is very simplistic.

Relationships is not my area of expertise, as I said I derived this conclusion and it was my own conclusion based on what I observed when I looked at polygamy across history and how rarely Polyandry-Women taking 1+ Husband- was practised, indicating that it's something that many societies deemed "unnatural" with the very few exceptions.
If you found that offensive then blame me and I 'll take your blame and not the religion.

katydid wrote: »

Ok, so you didn't specifically mention menstruation here; it's just that you've mentioned it so often, and never explained the reason for mentioning it. But what you cited above clearly states that a woman's place is first and foremost in the home, and that that is why she's not required to attend the mosque.

A home is both the place of the man and women but am taking it that you meant that a women is imprisoned at home and should not leave based on what I have said, this is not true, to begin with other then the 5 daily prayers it's recommended that a man pray any additional voluntary prayer at home rather then the mosque, according to the hadith:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar,
Allah's Apostle said, "Offer some of your prayers in your houses and do not make them graves."


As noted as well no one has the right to stop a women from going to the mosque if she would like to.

katydid wrote: »

You have ignored my points about the fact that today, in 2014, men and women share household responsibility and childcare (or should), many women work outside the home, many are not married or don't have children, and that women in all these circumstances are perfectly able to lead prayers in the same way as any man.

You are right that men and women share household responsiblity this is in fact taught and preached in Islam as the prophet was described by his wife:

I asked 'Aisha what did the Prophet May Allah's peace and praise be on him use to do at home. She replied, "He used to keep himself busy serving his family and when it was time for the prayer, he would get up for prayer."


In another narration:

Allah's Messenger May Allah's peace and praise be on him used to patch his sandals, sew his garment and conduct himself at home as anyone of you does in his house. He was a human being, searching his garment for lice, milking his sheep, and doing his own chores.


Therefore a man and wife from the time of the prophet are instructed to help one another sharing household responsibility and child care.

Hence this is not really a reason as to why a women cannot lead the prayer for men, I want you to understand that there is a current controversy among Muslims regarding the circumstances in which women may act as imams, as the issue is not addressed in the Quran, but rather by scholars of Islam that draw their conclusions based on their understanding of the quranic verses and the prophet life, as I mentioned in my answer.

Therefore am not an authority on the matter and find it difficult to answer this question, or how did the scholars arrive at that conclusion since am only a student of knowledge and not a scholar. However the brother whom Email I sent to you should be able to address the question with wisdom hence I directed you to someone more knowledgeable then I am while I study the issue my self when I find the time.

To also include that not any man can lead the prayer. Leadership in the prayer is given to he who memorized the most of the Holy Quran and who can recite it the best, so it's what in his heart and memory from the Quran that gave him leadership and nothing else, since the Hadith of the prophet states:

“The people should be led in prayer by the one who has most knowledge of the Book of Allaah; if they are equal in knowledge of the Qur’aan, then by the one who has most knowledge of the Sunnah.”


“If there are three people, let one of them lead the others in prayer, and the one who has the most right to lead them is the one who knows more Qur’aan.” (Narrated by Muslim, no. 1077).


That's why once the prayer is over the Imam must turn around and face the people praying behind him as the reason he took leadership over them is now gone once the prayer is finished and he must return to his original state, since being that Imam over prayer does not make you superior or more equal then those praying behind you.


I would like to finish by reminding you that this issue should not bother you too much as a non-Muslim, who have yet to establish the truth of Islam and whether Muhammed was truly a prophet of God or no.
You see in the Quran it says that in the day of resurrection a man will be the only witness against himself regardless of the excuses he presents:

Rather, man, against himself, will be a witness, Even if he presents his excuses.[75:14-15]
Hence the path toward God can only be one path and only one. A person may be overwhelmed by the number of religions out their each claiming to be the truth, However I truly believe that if you sincerely believe in God and ask him sincerely to guide you toward his path while making the effort to find it, you will find it, as in the day of resurrection one cannot say I was to busy with life or my children took all my time no excuse will save you then.

"So those who believe in God and hold fast to Him - He will admit them to mercy from Himself and bounty and guide them to Himself on a straight path."

"And those who strive for Us - We will surely guide them to Our ways. And indeed, God is with the doers of good."

And when My servants ask you,concerning Me - indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to Me [by obedience] and believe in Me that they may be [rightly] guided.



Lol to believe that nearly 90% of my posts in this forum were made in replay to you,If I knew beforehand that I would spend more then a week talking to you I wouldn't have replied to the comment that started it all:

katydid wrote: »

So why don't Muslim men cover their bodies in the same way women do?

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

#1)You first need to understand that the Quran came to establish the important principle of gender equality,evidenet when God said:
O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.[49:13]


Hence this is the only scale in the sight of God that's god consciousness and piety, in which one person may be better then the other regardless of whether he's male or female; in the light of this statement the verse is discussed. The question that you asked is whether or not, on the basis of the verse's circumstantial context, the testimony of one woman may be accepted even when the teaching of the verse is that two women should testify, however due to the length it would take to explain how the verse did not bring inequality between the sexes I refereed you to the article , which to this point I invite you to read when you have the time so you do not simply skim over it to understand how this objective is archived.

article: http://www.alhewar.com/TahaTestimony.htm

Keep in mind while your reading,, that the Arabic language is very complex,beautiful and broad. 1 word could have several meaning depending on its context and hence it's difficult to translate arbaic while still keeping the beauty and meaning of the actual text. For example the first chapter of the Quran is only 24 words in Arabic however it takes 74 English words to translate this similarly how it takes 5 nouns to describe Islam, that's why the writer will constantly refer to the roots of different words used and what their possible meaning and use in the context of the verse.


Relationships is not my area of expertise, as I said I derived this conclusion and it was my own conclusion based on what I observed when I looked at polygamy across history and how rarely Polyandry-Women taking 1+ Husband- was practised, indicating that it's something that many societies deemed "unnatural" with the very few exceptions.
If you found that offensive then blame me and I 'll take your blame and not the religion.


A home is both the place of the man and women but am taking it that you meant that a women is imprisoned at home and should not leave based on what I have said, this is not true, to begin with other then the 5 daily prayers it's recommended that a man pray any additional voluntary prayer at home rather then the mosque, according to the hadith:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar,
Allah's Apostle said, "Offer some of your prayers in your houses and do not make them graves."


As noted as well no one has the right to stop a women from going to the mosque if she would like to.


You are right that men and women share household responsiblity this is in fact taught and preached in Islam as the prophet was described by his wife:

I asked 'Aisha what did the Prophet May Allah's peace and praise be on him use to do at home. She replied, "He used to keep himself busy serving his family and when it was time for the prayer, he would get up for prayer."


In another narration:

Allah's Messenger May Allah's peace and praise be on him used to patch his sandals, sew his garment and conduct himself at home as anyone of you does in his house. He was a human being, searching his garment for lice, milking his sheep, and doing his own chores.


Therefore a man and wife from the time of the prophet are instructed to help one another sharing household responsibility and child care.

Hence this is not really a reason as to why a women cannot lead the prayer for men, I want you to understand that there is a current controversy among Muslims regarding the circumstances in which women may act as imams, as the issue is not addressed in the Quran, but rather by scholars of Islam that draw their conclusions based on their understanding of the quranic verses and the prophet life, as I mentioned in my answer.

Therefore am not an authority on the matter and find it difficult to answer this question, or how did the scholars arrive at that conclusion since am only a student of knowledge and not a scholar. However the brother whom Email I sent to you should be able to address the question with wisdom hence I directed you to someone more knowledgeable then I am while I study the issue my self when I find the time.

To also include that not any man can lead the prayer. Leadership in the prayer is given to he who memorized the most of the Holy Quran and who can recite it the best, so it's what in his heart and memory from the Quran that gave him leadership and nothing else, since the Hadith of the prophet states:

“The people should be led in prayer by the one who has most knowledge of the Book of Allaah; if they are equal in knowledge of the Qur’aan, then by the one who has most knowledge of the Sunnah.”


“If there are three people, let one of them lead the others in prayer, and the one who has the most right to lead them is the one who knows more Qur’aan.” (Narrated by Muslim, no. 1077).


That's why once the prayer is over the Imam must turn around and face the people praying behind him as the reason he took leadership over them is now gone once the prayer is finished and he must return to his original state, since being that Imam over prayer does not make you superior or more equal then those praying behind you.


I would like to finish by reminding you that this issue should not bother you too much as a non-Muslim, who have yet to establish the truth of Islam and whether Muhammed was truly a prophet of God or no.
You see in the Quran it says that in the day of resurrection a man will be the only witness against himself regardless of the excuses he presents:

Rather, man, against himself, will be a witness, Even if he presents his excuses.[75:14-15]
Hence the path toward God can only be one path and only one. A person may be overwhelmed by the number of religions out their each claiming to be the truth, However I truly believe that if you sincerely believe in God and ask him sincerely to guide you toward his path while making the effort to find it, you will find it, as in the day of resurrection one cannot say I was to busy with life or my children took all my time no excuse will save you then.

"So those who believe in God and hold fast to Him - He will admit them to mercy from Himself and bounty and guide them to Himself on a straight path."

"And those who strive for Us - We will surely guide them to Our ways. And indeed, God is with the doers of good."

And when My servants ask you,concerning Me - indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to Me [by obedience] and believe in Me that they may be [rightly] guided.



Lol to believe that nearly 90% of my posts in this forum were made in replay to you,If I knew beforehand that I would spend more then a week talking to you I wouldn't have replied to the comment that started it all:

Well, if you are going to engage in a debate to try to defend your religion, you have to be prepared to be questioned and challenged - and if you keep avoiding answering simple questions, what can you expect. Maybe you're nto used to uppity women... :-)
The Qur'an came to establish equality by making statements about the inability of women to give equal testimony in certain circumstances. I see...not a great start, was it? The language in which this statement is made in is irrelevant. Whatever way it is said, it boils down to the fact that the word of a woman is not regarded as equal to that of a man, even if it is only once circumstance.

Nobody is an expert in relationships; you don't have to be to know that it's not possible for anyone to give the same kind of love to four people as they give to one. What you're talking about here is sex, not love. You're absolutely right that polygamy is more common than polygyny, but that's for the simple reason that men have dominated societies throughout the ages and called the shots. They controlled women's lives and women's fertility, and put themselves in themselves in the position of having easy access to sex by calling it "marriage". In this day and age, women have control of their own lives and their own fertility, so if Muslim women want to have multiple husbands in the same way as Muslim men can have multiple wives, why not? It's not the way non-Muslims see relationships; for most people, the love between two people is precious and sacred, but if Muslims don't see it that way, true equality has to be allowing woman and men to have multiple spouses on an equal basis. You are not to blame for this inequality, your religion is; it allows men to do something it does not allow women.

"A home is both the place of the man and women but am taking it that you meant that a women is imprisoned at home"

I implied nothing of the kind. I pointed out that both men and women are capable of looking after the home and children, so there is no reason to make different allowances for men and women when it comes to being leaders or religion. Man or woman, if they want to be leaders, they should get support from their families in this important role. But your religion does not allow women to play the same role as men in this regard. It doesn't stop them going to the mosque but it stops them being Imams or leaders of prayer for their "brothers and sisters". No matter how you twist it, this IS discrimination.

I am glad that there is at least discussion about the issue; it took Christians almost two thousand years to acknowledge the equality of women as church leaders, and some denominations still aren't there. And of course, a man or a woman can't be a priest or a minister in Christianity either; you have to study theology, and prove that you are a suitable person.

Can you see it ever happening, that women would be given equality in this area in Islam?

Defender OF Faith

katydid wrote: »

Can you see it ever happening, that women would be given equality in this area in Islam?

If you search a women by the name of Amina wadud whom recently stirred up controversy among the Muslim by leading a mixed gender prayer you can see that such thing is beginning to happen I my self of the opinion that if a women is more knowledge then a group of men in recitation and memorization of the Quran she could lead as the hadith stated that:
“The people should be led in prayer by the one who has most knowledge of the Book of Allaah; if they are equal in knowledge of the Qur’aan, then by the one who has most knowledge of the Sunnah.”

Hence it never specified whether this person is a male or female he however must be the most knowledgeable among the group.

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

If you search a women by the name of Amina wadud whom recently stirred up controversy among the Muslim by leading a mixed gender prayer you can see that such thing is beginning to happen I my self of the opinion that if a women is more knowledge then a group of men in recitation and memorization of the Quran she could lead as the hadith stated that:
“The people should be led in prayer by the one who has most knowledge of the Book of Allaah; if they are equal in knowledge of the Qur’aan, then by the one who has most knowledge of the Sunnah.”

Hence it never specified whether this person is a male or female he however must be the most knowledgeable among the group.

Glad to hear it. Islam is seven centuries younger than Christianity and it took us until this century to accept the equality of women.

But my point stands; as it is, equality doesn't exist in Islam, any more than it does in Orthodox Judaism or Roman Catholicism...