Very young girls wearing the hijab

Defender OF Faith

katydid wrote: »

But my point stands; as it is, equality doesn't exist in Islam

O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.[49:13]


Hence this is the only scale in the sight of God that differentiate between a man and a women; that's god consciousness and piety, in which one person may be better then the other regardless of whether he's male or female.

If your still holding into the fact that equality doesn't exist in Islam go direct this statement to the brother whom Email I have sent with your examples he should be able to convince you otherwise, you can of course not bother to investigate this further however the fault will then rest upon you for not seeking the knowledge to rectify your misconception.

Rather, man, against himself, will be a witness, Even if he presents his excuses.[75:14-15]

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.[49:13]


Hence this is the only scale in the sight of God that differentiate between a man and a women; that's god consciousness and piety, in which one person may be better then the other regardless of whether he's male or female.

If your still holding into the fact that equality doesn't exist in Islam go direct this statement to the brother whom Email I have sent with your examples he should be able to convince you otherwise, you can of course not bother to investigate this further however the fault will then rest upon you for not seeking the knowledge to rectify your misconception.

Rather, man, against himself, will be a witness, Even if he presents his excuses.[75:14-15]

I'm not holding on to anything. YOU confirmed for me what I already knew, that Islam discriminates against women. The topic of our last exchange, the fact that as of now women are not allowed to lead mixed prayers or be Imams, is just one example, not to mention all the other examples you told me.

You have done a great job in outlining the inequalities of Islam. Thank you.

Defender OF Faith

katydid wrote: »

I'm not holding on to anything. YOU confirmed for me what I already knew,

It doesnt make sense for me to confirm something which am against.

katydid wrote: »

the fact that as of now women are not allowed to lead mixed prayers or be Imams, is just one example, not to mention all the other examples you told me.

I told you no examples, you were presenting all the examples and I was simply trying to explain. If you do not accept my explanation I directed you to somebody that might be able to explain in a better way then I can.

For me to write more then 20 lengthy posts with regard to this is enough to show that this issue is more complex then you think it's.

As I have mentioned previously if your convinced that Islam as a religion is a false religion, then whether this matter is resolved or not will not make a different. However if you take Islam to be the truth, then you can approach such a discussion knowing that the Quran is the only book in existence that contain the literal words of God and that God would never discriminate against me based on my gender.

Establishing the truth of Islam is something for you to investigate and study and no one can force you to do, I suggest you start by reading a Biography about its founder and obtaining a copy of the Quran both of which are provided in nearly any mosque you can find.

I'd like to finish by quoting from the Quran what would be the last call of the people or paradise once they enter it :
~ And the last of their call will be, "Praise to God, Lord of the worlds"

Spirogyra

Why do you believe that Mohammad was sent by God? you never met him......

looksee

Defender of Faith - as an aside, are you aware that your user name does not imply that you defend the Muslim faith, but faith in general. Maybe you do, but in that you are defending everyone's right to whatever faith they happen to choose.

On the discussion you have been having with katydid, I think katydid has made the point s/he set out to make. You are arguing on a discussion board with a western ethos and hoping to convince people of your point. However you are starting from a basis of naturally assuming an attitude of patronage. I think you will never understand katydid's - or any non-Muslim's - arguments because the cultural differences are too great between you. You are at something of a disadvantage as you are (apparently) arguing in a language that is not your first language, even so it is easy to see the circular arguments and the logic that has, to western eyes, shaky foundations.

You have instructed her to go and argue with a third party, and said that if she does not, she is not genuinely interested in the subject. This is missing the point. This is a discussion arena, it is up to you to convince her of your argument here, where we can all consider it. You are sure of your beliefs, you cannot 'win' the argument by opting out and referring her to someone else.

Henlars67

It should be illegal for people to be in public with their face covered.

Obviously exceptions would be made if there was a medical reason.

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

It doesnt make sense for me to confirm something which am against.

I told you no examples, you were presenting all the examples and I was simply trying to explain. If you do not accept my explanation I directed you to somebody that might be able to explain in a better way then I can.

For me to write more then 20 lengthy posts with regard to this is enough to show that this issue is more complex then you think it's.

As I have mentioned previously if your convinced that Islam as a religion is a false religion, then whether this matter is resolved or not will not make a different. However if you take Islam to be the truth, then you can approach such a discussion knowing that the Quran is the only book in existence that contain the literal words of God and that God would never discriminate against me based on my gender.

Establishing the truth of Islam is something for you to investigate and study and no one can force you to do, I suggest you start by reading a Biography about its founder and obtaining a copy of the Quran both of which are provided in nearly any mosque you can find.

I'd like to finish by quoting from the Quran what would be the last call of the people or paradise once they enter it :
~ And the last of their call will be, "Praise to God, Lord of the worlds"

No, it doesn't make sense for you to confirm what you are against; but that's what you have done. You have confirmed that the Qur'an does not allow equality for women in the circumstance of a particular legal situation, and you insist that the Qur'an can't be contextualised or re-interpreted. So the logic of those two things are that Islam accepts the inequality of women. You have also confirmed that while not specifically forbidden in the Qur'an, it is not acceptable at this point in time, nor has it been in the past, for women to lead mixed prayer. And you have confirmed that while men can have up to four wives, a women can't have up to four husbands, which, in any language, is an unequal situation.

Indeed you told me no examples; I gave you examples of inequality and you confirmed them as such. You can't deny that the Qur'an says what it say and that Islam accepts what it say, and you can't deny current practice in religious leadership or marriage laws. I accept your explanation totally; explaining the origins of certain issues is not a proof that they are not instances of inequality. That matter has been established quite clearly. So, like it or not, Islam does not treat men and women equally. Maybe it will in the future, but it doesn't right now, and my reading anything about Mohammed or Islam isn't going to change those facts that you have confirmed so clearly.

Defender OF Faith

katydid wrote: »

You have confirmed that the Qur'an does not allow equality for women in the circumstance of a particular legal situation

How can I confirm that yet present this conclusion to you?

""there is no difference between men and women in terms of their abilities, their propensity to forget, in the possibility of their colluding to present false witness, or in their ability to speak either the truth or fabrication. Moreover, the objectives of the Qur'an do not include anything that would indicate otherwise. Therefore, there is no evidence to suggest that there is anything other than equality between the sexes."

Men and women are equal in all kinds of transactions such as: signing a contract, buying, selling, donating, almsgiving, lending, or signing a guaranty act.

Go read the article which am 100% sure to this point you have not to understand how I came to such conclusion.

katydid wrote: »

So the logic of those two things are that Islam accepts the inequality of women.

For a book to accept inequality against women and still says:

O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.[49:13]


"Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer- We will surely cause him to live a good life, and we will surely give them their reward according to the best of what they used to do"


(Verily, the Muslim men and women, the believing men and women, the men and the women who are obedient (to Allah), the men and women who are truthful, the men and the women who are patient, the men and the women who are humble (before their Lord Allah), the men and the women who give Sadaqat (i.e. Zakat, and alms, etc.), the men and the women who observe Saum (fast), the men and the women who guard their chastity and the men and the women who remember Allah much with their hearts and tongues Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a great reward (i.e. Paradise).)
[Al Ahzab, 35]


(So their Lord accepted of them (their supplication and answered them), “Never will I allow to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female. You are (members) one of another)



For a prophet to present a book that according to you accept "inequality" and yet says:

"O People! Your God is one; your father is one; no preference of an Arab neither over non-Arab nor of a non-Arab over an Arab or red over black or black over red except for the most righteous. Verily the most honored of you is the most righteous."



Women are twin halves of men



One of the Prophet’s wives was jealous and she said: ‘It’s bad enough that Safiyyah is such and such. (Some of narrators said: she is short).’ He said: “You have said a word which could spoil the sea water if mixed withit.

[Tirmidhi, Abu Daawood, and Ahmad]

This is how dignified woman is in Islam! When this wife mocked her because she is short, the Prophet PBUH said to her:

You have said a word which could spoil the sea water if mixed with it

Orwah Ibn Al Zubair described his aunt Aisha-Prophet wife- saying:
I have never met anyone who is more knowledgeable in Fiqh (Islamic legislation), medicine, and poetry than Aisha May Allah be pleased with her


In Islam woman equals man in humanity, creation, dignity, religious duties, education, rearing, morals, responsibilities, consequences, and transactions.

For an article that discusses the Issue of equality between the sexes thoroughly in all aspects: http://www.muhammad-pbuh.com/en/?p=236

katydid wrote: »

You have also confirmed that while not specifically forbidden in the Qur'an, it is not acceptable at this point in time

You have answered your self, the matter is not even mentioned.

katydid wrote: »

And you have confirmed that while men can have up to four wives, a women can't have up to four husbands, which, in any language, is an unequal situation.

Before you point the finger at Islam for polygamy, understand that all the world major religions allowed polygamy it was laws that were passed later that abolished the practice, and prohibit polyandry. Islam came and placed strict rules and conditions for polygamy to give a women her full rights and justice.

the Qur'an attached the strict condition of justice between the wives and in case of any doubt in this matter, it directed men to remain limited to only one wife. It should be kept in mind that in the matter under consideration, it is not the equality between the sexes that is debated.

The Qur'an acknowledges complete equality between men and women as human beings. Here it is a matter of social needs and socio-moral obligations, which the Qur'an has addressed, and in collective matters of the society, the principle of the Qur'an is not equality but justice.

The Qur'an gives rights and responsibilities to men and women in this world based on their respective natural capacities and capabilities. Lastly, it may be of great interest to learn that the general idea of a family unit advocated by the Qur'an is monogamous. This is evident from the fact that God created only one woman as a wife for the first human being - Adam (pbuh). It is only in case of dire social needs that Qur'an compromises this ideal to achieve a higher goal.

looksee wrote: »

Defender of Faith - as an aside, are you aware that your user name does not imply that you defend the Muslim faith, but faith in general. Maybe you do, but in that you are defending everyone's right to whatever faith they happen to choose.

I defend faith as in believe in a one and only God, however I do not defend all religion. The truth can only be one if you claim to have the truth then be ready to defend it and present logical evidence that it's the truth.

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

How can I confirm that yet present this conclusion to you?

""there is no difference between men and women in terms of their abilities, their propensity to forget, in the possibility of their colluding to present false witness, or in their ability to speak either the truth or fabrication. Moreover, the objectives of the Qur'an do not include anything that would indicate otherwise. Therefore, there is no evidence to suggest that there is anything other than equality between the sexes."

Men and women are equal in all kinds of transactions such as: signing a contract, buying, selling, donating, almsgiving, lending, or signing a guaranty act.

Go read the article which am 100% sure to this point you have not to understand how I came to such conclusion.


For a book to accept inequality against women and still says:

O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.[49:13]


"Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer- We will surely cause him to live a good life, and we will surely give them their reward according to the best of what they used to do"


(Verily, the Muslim men and women, the believing men and women, the men and the women who are obedient (to Allah), the men and women who are truthful, the men and the women who are patient, the men and the women who are humble (before their Lord Allah), the men and the women who give Sadaqat (i.e. Zakat, and alms, etc.), the men and the women who observe Saum (fast), the men and the women who guard their chastity and the men and the women who remember Allah much with their hearts and tongues Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a great reward (i.e. Paradise).)
[Al Ahzab, 35]


(So their Lord accepted of them (their supplication and answered them), “Never will I allow to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female. You are (members) one of another)



For a prophet to present a book that according to you accept "inequality" and yet says:

"O People! Your God is one; your father is one; no preference of an Arab neither over non-Arab nor of a non-Arab over an Arab or red over black or black over red except for the most righteous. Verily the most honored of you is the most righteous."



Women are twin halves of men



One of the Prophet’s wives was jealous and she said: ‘It’s bad enough that Safiyyah is such and such. (Some of narrators said: she is short).’ He said: “You have said a word which could spoil the sea water if mixed withit.

[Tirmidhi, Abu Daawood, and Ahmad]

This is how dignified woman is in Islam! When this wife mocked her because she is short, the Prophet PBUH said to her:

You have said a word which could spoil the sea water if mixed with it

Orwah Ibn Al Zubair described his aunt Aisha-Prophet wife- saying:
I have never met anyone who is more knowledgeable in Fiqh (Islamic legislation), medicine, and poetry than Aisha May Allah be pleased with her


In Islam woman equals man in humanity, creation, dignity, religious duties, education, rearing, morals, responsibilities, consequences, and transactions.

For an article that discusses the Issue of equality between the sexes thoroughly in all aspects: http://www.muhammad-pbuh.com/en/?p=236



You have answered your self, the matter is not even mentioned.


Before you point the finger at Islam for polygamy, understand that all the world major religions allowed polygamy it was laws that were passed later that abolished the practice, and prohibit polyandry. Islam came and placed strict rules and conditions for polygamy to give a women her full rights and justice.

the Qur'an attached the strict condition of justice between the wives and in case of any doubt in this matter, it directed men to remain limited to only one wife. It should be kept in mind that in the matter under consideration, it is not the equality between the sexes that is debated.

The Qur'an acknowledges complete equality between men and women as human beings. Here it is a matter of social needs and socio-moral obligations, which the Qur'an has addressed, and in collective matters of the society, the principle of the Qur'an is not equality but justice.

The Qur'an gives rights and responsibilities to men and women in this world based on their respective natural capacities and capabilities. Lastly, it may be of great interest to learn that the general idea of a family unit advocated by the Qur'an is monogamous. This is evident from the fact that God created only one woman as a wife for the first human being - Adam (pbuh). It is only in case of dire social needs that Qur'an compromises this ideal to achieve a higher goal.




I defend faith as in believe in a one and only God, however I do not defend all religion. The truth can only be one if you claim to have the truth then be ready to defend it and present logical evidence that it's the truth.

"How can I confirm that yet present this conclusion to you?"

Because you contradict yourself. Or you are saying that the Qur'an contradicts itself. One way or the other, you quote all the stuff about there being no difference AND you quote the instance of the testimony regarding financial transactions. Funny, though, how you pick and choose what to quote. I think you are being dishonest when you say there is only one instance. What about Surah 4, verse 11, and also verse 176, where, regarding the matter of inheritance, it says: ""The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females". And what about ""And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women." (Surah 2, verse 282)

And then there's Bukhari (6:301) - "[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"

Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to suggest I read the Qur'an for myself...

It's fine if you admit there are contradictions and that these things are a product of a different time and can be ignored; most Christians have no problem in acknowledging that the Bible has contradictions and anachronisms. They can look beyond them to the essentiall truths. But when I ask you about this, you just say the Qur'an doesn't change. So, if it doesn't change, then this example of inequality doesn't change either. You can't have it both ways.

Regarding polygamy, I'm not "pointing the finger" at it at all. Polygamy wouldn't be my cup of tea; I believe in the unique relationship between two people who love each other, where there is no room for a third or fourth person. But I am well aware how widespread it is. That is beside the point. The POINT is that by allowing men to have four wives but only allowing women to have one husband, it is treating women unequally. How can you deny that? It is a simple fact; the historical reasons are irrelevant. You can't say that a religion which allows such a massive disparity between men and women "acknowledges complete equality between men and women as human being"

That is just illogical and daft.

Interesting, though, that you say that polygamy should only be practiced in cases of "dire social need". That is certainly not the basis for its practice amongst many Muslims. Such "dire social need" would be very rare, yet polygamy was relatively common amongst Muslims and is still practiced where there is no "dire social need". It seems that despite what you say, many Muslims play free and easy with the Qur'an, and interpret it as it suits them.

There IS only one true God. You call him Allah, I call him God, the Jews call him Yahweh. That is FAITH. What you are defending is your religion - and not doing a great job, I have to say.

Defender OF Faith

Read what I have written with the intention to learn and understand and not to argue, as I wrote extensively describing the testimony and the Hadith you presented. If you do not understand a specific sentence of a statement ask before jumping into conclusion

katydid wrote: »

And what about ""And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women." (Surah 2, verse 282)

katydid wrote: »

you quote all the stuff about there being no difference AND you quote the instance of the testimony regarding financial transactions.

I presented the verse in my earlier discussion however since you keep coming up with the issue of the testimony over and over again lets deal with this issue once and for all:

In Islam the testimony of men and women weigh equally. we will give some examples in which their testimonies are equally weighed.

There is a stronger proof for equality in the Qur'an's statement that the woman is just like the man in the type of testimony known as the oath of condemnation [which is An oath in which either the husband or the wife accuses his or her partner of adultery and the only witness is one of them.]

"And as for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves, let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies (i.e. testifies four times) by Allah that he be one of those who speak the truth. And the fifth (testimony) (should be) invoking the Curse of Allah on him if he be one of those who tell a lie (against her). But it shall avert the punishment (of stoning to death) from her, if she bears witness four times by Allah, that he (her husband) is telling a lie. And the fifth (testimony) should be that the Wrath of Allah be upon her if (her husband) speaks the truth". (Surah 24:6 to 9)


That is, four repetitions of the oath or testimony by the man concluded by an invocation of his damnation by Allah if he is lying, countered by and invalidated by four repetitions of the woman's counter statement, also followed by an invocation of Allah's wrath upon her if she is lying.

B. Pledge of Islam :
Women doing pledge of Islam with the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, did not need another woman to support her claim... it was equally valid as that of a man. And she did not need her father or husband's permission to do so either.

also Ayesha, may Allah be pleased with her, is considered as one of the four people who quoted more than 2000 hadith (Prophet’s saying). Many other woman reported many hadiths and their word was considered as valid by Muslim scholars.

The Verse says : "And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, tile other can remind her. And the witnesses should not refuse whethey are called on (for evidence)." (Surah 2:282 )

The scholar Mahmud Shaltut says: The verse does not address the question of the status of the testimony. It rather addresses the methods of verification and establishment of confidence about the individual's rights at the moment of transaction.

The verse actually begins: "O you who believe! When you contract a debt for a fixed period, write it down. Let a scribe write it down in justice between you. Let not the scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him," until it reaches " And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two woman, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her." (Surah 2:282 )

Therefore the situation is one of verification and documentation of rights and not one of judgement. Thus the verse points to the best ways of documentation and verification by which partners in a deal can have maximum security. This therefore does not mean that a single woman's, or a group of woman's testimony without a man's does not count in establishing rights nor is to be taken by a judge since the maximum required in jurisdiction is "evidence".

Along this line of thinking, jurisprudent Ibn Al-Qayyim establishes that "evidence" in Islamic Law is more comprehensive than testimony; confirming "evidence" is the factor in establishing rights, what makes it "evident" and consequently what is to be considered by the judge.

The judge pronounces his verdict on the basis of decisive evidence, even if it were a non-Muslim's testimony as long as he feels it worthy of his trust.

This leads the scholar to the conclusion that when two woman's testimonies are counted as one man's testimony, it is not because of some weakness or flaw in her mentality which would involve, in turn, a defect in woman's humanity.

The verse, however, was so worded as to address the norms of that time, which are still very much the same for the majority of women. They do not attend debt registration sessions or transactions.
The fact that some women take part in such activities does not alter the basic facts of life that it is not very common among women to get involved in financial transactions. Yet again, the verse serves as guidance on maximum verification. In some places, the tendency is for a woman to make transactions and witness the writing of debts; it is the people's right to accept a woman's testimony as they accept that of a man as long as they do this with equal confidence in both sexes’ memories.

The verse directly addresses people who lend or borrow money over a fixed period. It advises them that if they are involved in such dealings, an agreement between the two parties must be written down, and to avoid dispute and damage, only witnesses who are honest, reliable and morally sound should be appointed. At the same time, their personal involvements and occupations should be suited to fulfill this responsibility in a befitting manner. The verse does not at all mean that a law suit shall stand proven in a court only if at least two men or one man and two women bear witness to it.

The famous Islamic jurisprudent Sheikh Muhammad Abdou when commenting on the verse :
"O you who believe! When you contract a debt for a fixed period, write it down. Let a scribe write it down in justice between you. Let not the scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him," until it reaches " And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two woman, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her." (Surah 2:282 )

He said that cause of this verse was that it was not the custom of women in that age to be involved in financial affairs that’s why her memory in financial deals is weaker than that of a man however this is not the case when it comes to domestic affairs where a woman’s memory is stronger than that of a man.

During the time of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, there were Muslim women who did business, their testimonies were not questioned. If she is the sole owner of a business it would be ludicrous to have her find another woman to validate her agreement. So this is not even extended to all business transactions... only those in which she is not directly involved.

During the time of Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, a lady, Al Shafa bint Abdullah ibn abd Shams, was assigned the position of official business transactor/manager of the market of Medina... if her testimony was not valid how could she have been appointed such a position. It would be very inconvenient for her to go seek another woman to validate all her testimonies or transactions.

The verse does not address the question of the status of the testimony. It rather addresses the methods of verification and establishment of confidence about the individual's rights at the moment of transaction.

Also the famous Islamic jurisprudent Ibn Taimeya clarifies that the verse was discussing the condition of transaction not the legal testimony before a judge.

He added that a woman’s forgetfulness and hence her need for another woman to confirm her testimony in situations of deals is not a nature in all woman, but it rather has to do with experience and practice (in financial affairs), so if a woman has experience in financial matters and was known to have piety then her testimony alone is accepted

katydid wrote: »

"[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"

To begin with intelligence here rather means intellect, that is why many scholars consider translation as a cause for the misunderstanding of this hadith.

That is why some consider the above translation as wrong and give the following as its correction

“The Messenger of Allah once said to a group of women: O Women, give charity. I see the majority of those in hellfire to be women. They said: why is it so, O Messenger of Allah? He said: You rebuke a lot and you are disobedient towards your husbands. I have not seen any one who has more influence on an intelligent and sensible man, than you, although you are deficient in intellect and religion. A cautious, sensible man can easily be led astray by you. The women asked: O Allah's Messenger, what is deficient in our intellect and religion? He said: Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man? They replied in the affirmative. He said: This is the deficiency in your intelligence'... 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menstruation? The women replied in the affirmative. He said: This is the deficiency in your religion.''



In this narrative of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, according to a normal principle of the classical Arabic language, some words have been suppressed. The words "Naqisa'tul-`aql wal-deen" translated as: "deficient in intellect and religion" have the noun "umu'r" suppressed. The complete phrase is: "Naqisa'tu umu'ril-`aql wal-di'n" or "Naqisa't fi' umu'ril-`aql wal-di'n" i.e. "deficient in responsibility in matters pertaining to intellect and religion.

Arab philosophers consider the human mind has two parts one which has all his instinct-based behavior, as well as his being God’s trustee on earth which is the one that Allah created inside man. The other one is based on the intelligence, intellect and brilliance. Consequently, they say that some humans can have one strong and the other deficient whether men or women equally.

Based on Arab philosophers theory, The famous scholar Al-Mawardi said that the real intellect is the one responsible for the human actions as Allah’s vicegerent on earth. That is the one meant by the word (intelligence) in this hadith. That is why the hadith said (deficient in intelligence and religion) i.e. used the woman’s deficiency in intellect with her having less religious responsibilities. The hadith actually speaks of the part of the mind responsible for the human as vicegerent on earth.

As for her deficiency in intellect, Women can not control her feelings as much as man and is more patient and merciful than man and is much easily moved by tragic situations than man which is her nature that is why her responsibilities as Allah vicegerent on earth are less. For example she does not have to financially support the family while financially supporting the family is one of the man’s major responsibilities

As for her deficiency in religion it is because during her menstruation she does not fast or pray.

Both deficiencies are not meant to humiliate or underestimate women but rather understanding her nature. Women have less responsibilities as Allah vicegerent on earth that is the part of their intellect that is missing but it never means that women are brainless, unwise, less intelligent or even less religious than men. The hadith rather empathizes women nature as the part of humanity responsible for emotions and mercy than men.

Before we leave this matter we have to say here that in various occasions the Holy Quran and Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, praised women intelligence and wisdom.

The holy Quran praised Belqees The Queen of Sheba’s wisdom and narrated her story with Prophet Soloman, blessings be upon him, in the following verses

“She said: O chiefs! give me advice respecting my affair: I never decide an affair until you are in my presence They said: We are possessors of strength and possessors of mighty prowess, and the command is yours, therefore see what you will command. She said: Surely the kings, when they enter a town, ruin it and make the noblest of its people to be low, and thus they (always) do; And surely I am going to send a present to them, and shall wait to see what (answer) do the messengers bring back.” (AlNaml – 32:35)

katydid wrote: »

What about Surah 4, verse 11, and also verse 176, where, regarding the matter of inheritance, it says: ""The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females"

"Some think that women are inferior to men in Islam and a commonly cited example is that women receive less share in inheritance than a male."


This is only true if there is no recorded will for the deceased. Shares of inheritance should be stated in a will, and can be done in any way a person chooses [2:180, 5:106-108] however in cases where there is no will or a will leaves leftover wealth/property/etc The Quran has a default system that can be used for such cases [4:8, 4:11-12, 4:176]. In this default system, a male receives more than a female because they have a wider duty of care for maintenance of the family/household [2:228, 2:233, 4:34, 65:6]. Also they have other financial obligations, e.g. payment of a dowry before marriage [4:4, 4:24 and compensation after divorce if applicable [2:241].
Here is an example to show the justice behind such ruling in an Islamic society were a male have the financial obligation.

This is like having to men and giving each 2000$ one of them you cost nothing while the other you cost purchasing items worth 1500$, in reality which is given more?

Let say man died an left 300000 in inheritance leaving behind one son and daughter.

If the man have left no will by default a man will receive 200000 and the women 100000, in the beginning this is evidently in the favour of a man and injustice to the women in the eyes of those with narrow vision. But those with a healthy sight will look far ahead just as they see what's close, because he understand that the man will get married and pay 50000 in dowry while the women will get married and receive 50000 in dowry, hence the man now has 50k less and a women has 50k more. The man has the financial obligation to support his family so he spends some of what he received on his family and constantly his money is getting less and less, while his sister is taken care of by her husband and her money remains the same. Not so long from now will the women have more money then the man.

If no default backup system such as this existed, this opens the possibility to much argument, hostility, legal action, delays and the outcome would likely favour those with more power/wealth/influence, thus leaving the disadvantaged even more disadvantaged.

katydid wrote: »

That is beside the point. The POINT is that by allowing men to have four wives but only allowing women to have one husband, it is treating women unequally.

The Quran is very clear on this subject, that monogamy is the basis for normal relationships, while polygamy is only allowed in cases involving marrying the mothers of orphans so that the orphans are taken care of with other exceptions. A maximum of four wives are allowed in such cases. For example, in the aftermath of war, it is likely that many men would have lost their lives, resulting in many widows with fatherless children, thus The Quran allows an exception in these cases so that the needs of the wider community can be met:

fatherless children, thus The Quran allows an exception in these cases so that the needs of the wider community can be met:

Give the orphans* their money; do not replace the good with the bad, and do not consume their money to your money, for truly it is a great sin!
And if you fear that you cannot be just to the orphans, then you may marry those who are agreeable to you of the women: two, and three, and four. But if you fear you will not be fair, then only one**, or to whom you are committed to by oath. This is best that you do not face financial hardship. [4:3]
*the Arabic word for "orphans" is "yatama" and specifically means children who are fatherless.
** note the emphasis on one wife, i.e. monogamy.

Again, the subject of polygamy is addressed in the context of orphans:

They ask you for divine instruction concerning women. Say, "God instructs you regarding them, as has been recited for you in the book about the mother of orphans who you want to marry without giving them what has been ordained/written for them, as well as the powerless children, and your duty to treat orphans with equity. Whatever good you do, God has full knowledge of it. [4:127]


Again, The Quran shows a preference for monogamy in the following verse:

And marry the single from among you as well as the good from among your male and female servants. If they are poor, then God will grant them from His grace. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable. [24:32]

To summarise, The Quran was revealed to a society where polygamy was commonplace and men could have many wives (e.g. more than four for example). By setting an upper limit, citing a moral restriction on polygamy and limiting the situations in which it is allowed would result in reducing polygamy significantly.

katydid wrote: »

Interesting, though, that you say that polygamy should only be practiced in cases of "dire social need". That is certainly not the basis for its practice amongst many Muslims. Such "dire social need" would be very rare, yet polygamy was relatively common amongst Muslims and is still practiced where there is no "dire social need". It seems that despite what you say, many Muslims play free and easy with the Qur'an, and interpret it as it suits them.

Woah, that's a big claim that you have not presented a source or proof to backup, did you visit the middle east? talked to any polygamous couple?! where have you got such facts from?!

What's interesting that a while ago you said:

katydid wrote: »

I have no idea what verse about inheritance you are referring to, but I've no idea why you think I should need to quote it.

And bam suddenly you were capable of citing the verse and a hadith as well, my guess is that you went looking around at sites such as answeringIslam,Wiki-Islam or Islam explained or the religionOFpeace or studytoanswer maybe I have missed some am not sure. Just to remind you that the information on all these sites are written by people with strong views and dislike for Islam, who have no expertice in the area of Islamic studies laws or even the Arabic language, and hence are very misleading in presenting verses and Hadith out of contexts without the bother of explaining them and citing what Islamic scholar have said about them since of course this does not suit their agenda to drive people away from Islam therefore they are the subject of huge bias.

Instead I suggest to look up information about Islam from the following sites and links:

http://www.alsiraj.net/English/misc/women/html/page01.html - My number one source that discuss all the major misconception that surrounds women In Islam, containing articles written by actual scholars of Islam.
http://www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/- deals with general misconceptions concerning Islam

The following sites present an introduction into Islam and establishing its truth and Muhammed prophethood:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s2UTAtSKd0 - Muhammed in the Bible
http://www.onereason.org/islam-unveiled/why-islam/ - Explaining Islam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOwA0v026wY - proof that Islam is the truth, a series presented by a UK convert and scholar of Islam Abderahman Green.
http://www.elnaggarzr.com/en/ -Science in light of the Quran

kstand

Something like 1500 years have passed since any of those religious books were written. We have had countless wars, we have evolved, we have really advanced in scientific research as a result in particular of the industrial revolution. It is also clear that a hell of a lot of the cultural nuances of those times have made their way into those books as the "word of God". There is no scientific evidence to support any of the things that appear beyond belief. In the west - which is not perfect by any means - we have learned to accept freedom of choice and equality of the sexes. Antithesis to beliefs in other cultures.
Why should we have to listen to or indeed be subject to any of those beliefs? And why, in western society, after all we have been through to get this far, should we have people walking our streets wearing restrictive cultural garments and be expected to accept that in the name of freedom of choice? Is that not the ultimate antithesis - and in the case of those who defend it, the ultimate hypocrisy?

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Read what I have written with the intention to learn and understand and not to argue, as I wrote extensively describing the testimony and the Hadith you presented. If you do not understand a specific sentence of a statement ask before jumping into conclusion




I presented the verse in my earlier discussion however since you keep coming up with the issue of the testimony over and over again lets deal with this issue once and for all:

In Islam the testimony of men and women weigh equally. we will give some examples in which their testimonies are equally weighed.

There is a stronger proof for equality in the Qur'an's statement that the woman is just like the man in the type of testimony known as the oath of condemnation [which is An oath in which either the husband or the wife accuses his or her partner of adultery and the only witness is one of them.]

"And as for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves, let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies (i.e. testifies four times) by Allah that he be one of those who speak the truth. And the fifth (testimony) (should be) invoking the Curse of Allah on him if he be one of those who tell a lie (against her). But it shall avert the punishment (of stoning to death) from her, if she bears witness four times by Allah, that he (her husband) is telling a lie. And the fifth (testimony) should be that the Wrath of Allah be upon her if (her husband) speaks the truth". (Surah 24:6 to 9)


That is, four repetitions of the oath or testimony by the man concluded by an invocation of his damnation by Allah if he is lying, countered by and invalidated by four repetitions of the woman's counter statement, also followed by an invocation of Allah's wrath upon her if she is lying.

B. Pledge of Islam :
Women doing pledge of Islam with the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, did not need another woman to support her claim... it was equally valid as that of a man. And she did not need her father or husband's permission to do so either.

also Ayesha, may Allah be pleased with her, is considered as one of the four people who quoted more than 2000 hadith (Prophet’s saying). Many other woman reported many hadiths and their word was considered as valid by Muslim scholars.

The Verse says : "And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, tile other can remind her. And the witnesses should not refuse whethey are called on (for evidence)." (Surah 2:282 )

The scholar Mahmud Shaltut says: The verse does not address the question of the status of the testimony. It rather addresses the methods of verification and establishment of confidence about the individual's rights at the moment of transaction.

The verse actually begins: "O you who believe! When you contract a debt for a fixed period, write it down. Let a scribe write it down in justice between you. Let not the scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him," until it reaches " And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two woman, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her." (Surah 2:282 )

Therefore the situation is one of verification and documentation of rights and not one of judgement. Thus the verse points to the best ways of documentation and verification by which partners in a deal can have maximum security. This therefore does not mean that a single woman's, or a group of woman's testimony without a man's does not count in establishing rights nor is to be taken by a judge since the maximum required in jurisdiction is "evidence".

Along this line of thinking, jurisprudent Ibn Al-Qayyim establishes that "evidence" in Islamic Law is more comprehensive than testimony; confirming "evidence" is the factor in establishing rights, what makes it "evident" and consequently what is to be considered by the judge.

The judge pronounces his verdict on the basis of decisive evidence, even if it were a non-Muslim's testimony as long as he feels it worthy of his trust.

This leads the scholar to the conclusion that when two woman's testimonies are counted as one man's testimony, it is not because of some weakness or flaw in her mentality which would involve, in turn, a defect in woman's humanity.

The verse, however, was so worded as to address the norms of that time, which are still very much the same for the majority of women. They do not attend debt registration sessions or transactions.
The fact that some women take part in such activities does not alter the basic facts of life that it is not very common among women to get involved in financial transactions. Yet again, the verse serves as guidance on maximum verification. In some places, the tendency is for a woman to make transactions and witness the writing of debts; it is the people's right to accept a woman's testimony as they accept that of a man as long as they do this with equal confidence in both sexes’ memories.

The verse directly addresses people who lend or borrow money over a fixed period. It advises them that if they are involved in such dealings, an agreement between the two parties must be written down, and to avoid dispute and damage, only witnesses who are honest, reliable and morally sound should be appointed. At the same time, their personal involvements and occupations should be suited to fulfill this responsibility in a befitting manner. The verse does not at all mean that a law suit shall stand proven in a court only if at least two men or one man and two women bear witness to it.

The famous Islamic jurisprudent Sheikh Muhammad Abdou when commenting on the verse :
"O you who believe! When you contract a debt for a fixed period, write it down. Let a scribe write it down in justice between you. Let not the scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him," until it reaches " And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two woman, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her." (Surah 2:282 )

He said that cause of this verse was that it was not the custom of women in that age to be involved in financial affairs that’s why her memory in financial deals is weaker than that of a man however this is not the case when it comes to domestic affairs where a woman’s memory is stronger than that of a man.

During the time of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, there were Muslim women who did business, their testimonies were not questioned. If she is the sole owner of a business it would be ludicrous to have her find another woman to validate her agreement. So this is not even extended to all business transactions... only those in which she is not directly involved.

During the time of Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, a lady, Al Shafa bint Abdullah ibn abd Shams, was assigned the position of official business transactor/manager of the market of Medina... if her testimony was not valid how could she have been appointed such a position. It would be very inconvenient for her to go seek another woman to validate all her testimonies or transactions.

The verse does not address the question of the status of the testimony. It rather addresses the methods of verification and establishment of confidence about the individual's rights at the moment of transaction.

Also the famous Islamic jurisprudent Ibn Taimeya clarifies that the verse was discussing the condition of transaction not the legal testimony before a judge.

He added that a woman’s forgetfulness and hence her need for another woman to confirm her testimony in situations of deals is not a nature in all woman, but it rather has to do with experience and practice (in financial affairs), so if a woman has experience in financial matters and was known to have piety then her testimony alone is accepted





To begin with intelligence here rather means intellect, that is why many scholars consider translation as a cause for the misunderstanding of this hadith.

That is why some consider the above translation as wrong and give the following as its correction

“The Messenger of Allah once said to a group of women: O Women, give charity. I see the majority of those in hellfire to be women. They said: why is it so, O Messenger of Allah? He said: You rebuke a lot and you are disobedient towards your husbands. I have not seen any one who has more influence on an intelligent and sensible man, than you, although you are deficient in intellect and religion. A cautious, sensible man can easily be led astray by you. The women asked: O Allah's Messenger, what is deficient in our intellect and religion? He said: Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man? They replied in the affirmative. He said: This is the deficiency in your intelligence'... 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menstruation? The women replied in the affirmative. He said: This is the deficiency in your religion.''



In this narrative of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, according to a normal principle of the classical Arabic language, some words have been suppressed. The words "Naqisa'tul-`aql wal-deen" translated as: "deficient in intellect and religion" have the noun "umu'r" suppressed. The complete phrase is: "Naqisa'tu umu'ril-`aql wal-di'n" or "Naqisa't fi' umu'ril-`aql wal-di'n" i.e. "deficient in responsibility in matters pertaining to intellect and religion.

Arab philosophers consider the human mind has two parts one which has all his instinct-based behavior, as well as his being God’s trustee on earth which is the one that Allah created inside man. The other one is based on the intelligence, intellect and brilliance. Consequently, they say that some humans can have one strong and the other deficient whether men or women equally.

Based on Arab philosophers theory, The famous scholar Al-Mawardi said that the real intellect is the one responsible for the human actions as Allah’s vicegerent on earth. That is the one meant by the word (intelligence) in this hadith. That is why the hadith said (deficient in intelligence and religion) i.e. used the woman’s deficiency in intellect with her having less religious responsibilities. The hadith actually speaks of the part of the mind responsible for the human as vicegerent on earth.

As for her deficiency in intellect, Women can not control her feelings as much as man and is more patient and merciful than man and is much easily moved by tragic situations than man which is her nature that is why her responsibilities as Allah vicegerent on earth are less. For example she does not have to financially support the family while financially supporting the family is one of the man’s major responsibilities

As for her deficiency in religion it is because during her menstruation she does not fast or pray.

Both deficiencies are not meant to humiliate or underestimate women but rather understanding her nature. Women have less responsibilities as Allah vicegerent on earth that is the part of their intellect that is missing but it never means that women are brainless, unwise, less intelligent or even less religious than men. The hadith rather empathizes women nature as the part of humanity responsible for emotions and mercy than men.

Before we leave this matter we have to say here that in various occasions the Holy Quran and Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, praised women intelligence and wisdom.

The holy Quran praised Belqees The Queen of Sheba’s wisdom and narrated her story with Prophet Soloman, blessings be upon him, in the following verses

“She said: O chiefs! give me advice respecting my affair: I never decide an affair until you are in my presence They said: We are possessors of strength and possessors of mighty prowess, and the command is yours, therefore see what you will command. She said: Surely the kings, when they enter a town, ruin it and make the noblest of its people to be low, and thus they (always) do; And surely I am going to send a present to them, and shall wait to see what (answer) do the messengers bring back.” (AlNaml – 32:35)






"Some think that women are inferior to men in Islam and a commonly cited example is that women receive less share in inheritance than a male."


This is only true if there is no recorded will for the deceased. Shares of inheritance should be stated in a will, and can be done in any way a person chooses [2:180, 5:106-108] however in cases where there is no will or a will leaves leftover wealth/property/etc The Quran has a default system that can be used for such cases [4:8, 4:11-12, 4:176]. In this default system, a male receives more than a female because they have a wider duty of care for maintenance of the family/household [2:228, 2:233, 4:34, 65:6]. Also they have other financial obligations, e.g. payment of a dowry before marriage [4:4, 4:24 and compensation after divorce if applicable [2:241].
Here is an example to show the justice behind such ruling in an Islamic society were a male have the financial obligation.

This is like having to men and giving each 2000$ one of them you cost nothing while the other you cost purchasing items worth 1500$, in reality which is given more?

Let say man died an left 300000 in inheritance leaving behind one son and daughter.

If the man have left no will by default a man will receive 200000 and the women 100000, in the beginning this is evidently in the favour of a man and injustice to the women in the eyes of those with narrow vision. But those with a healthy sight will look far ahead just as they see what's close, because he understand that the man will get married and pay 50000 in dowry while the women will get married and receive 50000 in dowry, hence the man now has 50k less and a women has 50k more. The man has the financial obligation to support his family so he spends some of what he received on his family and constantly his money is getting less and less, while his sister is taken care of by her husband and her money remains the same. Not so long from now will the women have more money then the man.

If no default backup system such as this existed, this opens the possibility to much argument, hostility, legal action, delays and the outcome would likely favour those with more power/wealth/influence, thus leaving the disadvantaged even more disadvantaged.



The Quran is very clear on this subject, that monogamy is the basis for normal relationships, while polygamy is only allowed in cases involving marrying the mothers of orphans so that the orphans are taken care of. A maximum of four wives are allowed in such cases. For example, in the aftermath of war, it is likely that many men would have lost their lives, resulting in many widows with fatherless children, thus The Quran allows an exception in these cases so that the needs of the wider community can be met:

fatherless children, thus The Quran allows an exception in these cases so that the needs of the wider community can be met:

Give the orphans* their money; do not replace the good with the bad, and do not consume their money to your money, for truly it is a great sin!
And if you fear that you cannot be just to the orphans, then you may marry those who are agreeable to you of the women: two, and three, and four. But if you fear you will not be fair, then only one**, or to whom you are committed to by oath. This is best that you do not face financial hardship. [4:3]
*the Arabic word for "orphans" is "yatama" and specifically means children who are fatherless.
** note the emphasis on one wife, i.e. monogamy.

Again, the subject of polygamy is addressed in the context of orphans:

They ask you for divine instruction concerning women. Say, "God instructs you regarding them, as has been recited for you in the book about the mother of orphans who you want to marry without giving them what has been ordained/written for them, as well as the powerless children, and your duty to treat orphans with equity. Whatever good you do, God has full knowledge of it. [4:127]


Again, The Quran shows a preference for monogamy in the following verse:

And marry the single from among you as well as the good from among your male and female servants. If they are poor, then God will grant them from His grace. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable. [24:32]

To summarise, The Quran was revealed to a society where polygamy was commonplace and men could have many wives (e.g. more than four for example). By setting an upper limit, citing a moral restriction on polygamy and limiting the situations in which it is allowed would result in reducing polygamy significantly.



What's interesting that a while ago you said:

And bam suddenly you were capable of citing the verse and a hadith as well, my guess is that you went looking around at sites such as answeringIslam,Wiki-Islam or Islam explained or the religionOFpeace or studytoanswer maybe I have missed some am not sure. Just to remind you that the information on all these sites are written by people with strong views and dislike for Islam, who have no expertice in the area of Islamic studies laws or even the Arabic language, and hence are very misleading in presenting verses and Hadith out of contexts without the bother of explaining them and citing what Islamic scholar have said about them since of course this does not suit their agenda to drive people away from Islam therefore they are the subject of huge bias.

Instead I suggest to look up information about Islam from the following sites and links:

http://www.alsiraj.net/English/misc/women/html/page01.html - My number one source that discuss all the major misconception that surrounds women In Islam, containing articles written by actual scholars of Islam.
http://www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/- deals with general misconceptions concerning Islam

The following sites present an introduction into Islam and establishing its truth and Muhammed prophethood:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s2UTAtSKd0
http://www.onereason.org/islam-unveiled/why-islam/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOwA0v026wY

I keep coming to the issue of testimony because it shows the inequality of men and women in Islam. I supplied extra verses because you said that the verse you quoted to me was the only one. I don't know if you were being deliberately dishonest or you genuinely didn't know about the other instances, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Interesting, though, that in supposedly providing other verses that say otherwise, you provide one which says "f there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, tile other can remind her"...
In any case, I don't need you to explain OTHER verses from the Qur'an in the issue of testimony; the FACT is that the verses I quoted make it quite clear that the Qur'an says otherwise in certain places. That means that the Qur'an contradicts itself. Which is fine, if you are prepared to accept that fact.

As you rightly say, these things represent the norms of the time. But YOU keep saying that the Qur'an has to be taken as written. If you now accept that it can be contextualised and interpreted, fair enough. That is just like Christianity.

"To begin with intelligence here rather means intellect,"

So? A woman's intellect is not inferior to a man's. There are different levels of intellect amongst men and women. The scholars can debate about the meaning of words all the way, but that is the bottom line.

"s for her deficiency in religion it is because during her menstruation she does not fast or pray"

How is that a deficiency? A deficiency is a lack in something. Just because someone is absolved from certain religious duties because they are menstruating (why would they be anyway? How can having a period affect your ability to pray?) doesn't mean they are deficient. They are following the rules, however strange, of their religion. There is no need to use a term like "deficiency" in a situation like this, especially when there is nothing to understand. Menstruation is not a reason for making any distinction between men and women.

"Women have less responsibilities as Allah vicegerent on earth that is the part of their intellect that is missing"

Oh dear...I know you probably come from another culture, but have you even the slightest idea how that comes across. You can't seriously talk like that and maintain your ridiculous claims about men and women being equal in Islam.

"This is only true if there is no recorded will for the deceased."

So? Why would this make a difference? Men only have a wider duty of care if they choose to take on a duty of care. There's no reason why women can't have a duty of care. The point, which you really seem totally incapable of understanding, is that men and women are not treated equally in this respect, whatever the reason!

"polygamy is only allowed in cases involving marrying the mothers of orphans so that the orphans are taken care of."

So how come so many Muslims marry more than one wife without this situation and claim they are allowed by Islam? I just watched a programme on madrasses for girls in Afghanistan, and one of the male teachers had taken one of the students as his second wife. A young girl, never married, no children...If people interpret Islam to suit their own sexual desires, it is clear that Islam isn't as clear cut as you say. If it were, this Islamic scholar would not be able to take a young girl as a second wife.

I don't remember the site I found the quotations from the Qur'an on. Why does it matter? They are true, are they not?

I told you it wasn't such a good idea suggesting I read up on the Qur'an. I found more than you bargained for...

Defender OF Faith

katydid wrote: »

Interesting, though, that in supposedly providing other verses that say otherwise, you provide one which says "f there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, tile other can remind her"...
The FACT is that the verses I quoted make it quite clear that the Qur'an says otherwise in certain places. That means that the Qur'an contradicts itself. Which is fine, if you are prepared to accept that fact.

I hope by now and after what you have read that it's clear in the issue of testimony which is only mentioned once in the Quran, it's quite evident that no inequality between a man or women is indicated hence there's no contradiction once I quote verses that supports the Idea of equality because there's nothing against equality in that verse.

katydid wrote: »

As you rightly say, these things represent the norms of the time. But YOU keep saying that the Qur'an has to be taken as written. If you now accept that it can be contextualised and interpreted, fair enough.

Please madam do not put words in my mouth, I have said that the Quran applies to every day and age and mentioned this statement in this exact wording only once so far. By saying that I meant that there are certain laws and issues that apply only when the situation exist and others apply in all situations.

At the time of the prophet a man who could not read or write presented a book that contain the highest quality of Arabic and poetry which was used at the time against them to prove that this is a book of god because it suited the time were the Arabs used to boats about their knowledge and the beauty of their language.

Now days this doesn't apply instead it's science and technology that dominate and why the Qur'an has came with scientific evidence and proofs that 1400 years ago could not have been known by a man to suit this age.

The Qur'an can be explained, however not everyone can do this and the mufasireen/interpretors (exegetes) listed 15 fields that must be mastered before one can authoritatively interpret the Quran.

"A Quranic tafsir will often explain intent or provide places and times, not contained in Quranic verses, as well as give restriction of meanings, or explanations for why verses seem contradictory.


I have not understood exactly what you meant by contextualisation so I looked up a definition and I will answer in light of it

"Generally, to contextualize an idea, statement or event is to place it within its larger setting in which it acquires its true and complete meaning."

This is of course taking into account by the Mufasireen/interpretors when they attempt to interpret the Qur'an.

katydid wrote: »

" for her deficiency in religion it is because during her menstruation she does not fast or pray"
How is that a deficiency? A deficiency is a lack in something.

In the context of the Muslim daily prayers which need to be performed every day by a man and a women, when a women does not perform them for the period of her menstruation a man continues to performs them, am not even sure if the word "deficient" is an accurate translation of the Arabic word used "Naqisa'tu" as it could also mean to have "little or less" of something.

As to why Muslim women cannot pray during her menstrual cycle,not that it's any issue for the Muslim women as she can continue to supplicate and make Duaa to god, however it's because the prophet of Islam said so, and we as Muslim are obliged to obey; knowing full well the the prophet would not issue a command that would bring any harm to his followers.

katydid wrote: »

"This is only true if there is no recorded will for the deceased."

So? Why would this make a difference? Men only have a wider duty of care if they choose to take on a duty of care. There's no reason why women can't have a duty of care. The point, which you really seem totally incapable of understanding, is that men and women are not treated equally in this respect, whatever the reason!

#1)If no default backup system such as this existed, this opens the possibility to much argument, hostility, legal action, delays and the outcome would likely favour those with more power/wealth/influence, thus leaving the disadvantaged even more disadvantaged.

#2)Under Islamic law men are obliged to take on this duty of care for maintenance of the family/household from a financial perspective. If the man is poor and his wife is rich, he still has this duty of care however his wife can support him of her own free will and she's not obliged to do so.

#3)Your right men and women are not treated equally in this regards, I hope you understood the parable I stuck with the milk and how equality in some regards can do more harm then good, and while they are not treated equally such division as I have explained, provide justice and fairness to both the man and women since under Islamic law one's duty of care is larger then the other and naturally requires more then the other.

And to remind you that even in the modern European and American laws as I mentioned before men and women are treated differently in alot of aspects of the law in a way that is fair to each.

katydid wrote: »

So how come so many Muslims marry more than one wife without this situation and claim they are allowed by Islam? I just watched a programme on madrasses for girls in Afghanistan, and one of the male teachers had taken one of the students as his second wife. A young girl, never married, no children...If people interpret Islam to suit their own sexual desires, it is clear that Islam isn't as clear cut as you say. If it were, this Islamic scholar would not be able to take a young girl as a second wife.

Madam if you bought a brand new car and gave it to your friend to drive unfortunately however he had a crash with it, would you blame the car or your friend?

Obviously you will blame your friend, similarly Islam is the car don't blame Islam for the actions of Muslim, If you see a Muslim that drinks, you cannot say that his religion allows him to drink because it clearly doesn't. His action lead him to drink

take it from me as a Muslim that in this day an age most of the Muslims are very far from the teaching of Islam.
Drinking,gambling and usury/interest are widespread in most Muslim countries even Saudi Arabia that claim to follow Sharia law deals with interest on of the issues Islam prohibited strongly, you visit Makkah and you will see pornography being sold outside the mosque and prostitution being practice by supposedly "Muslim people". Such black sheeps exist in every society as there's no such a thing as the perfect society.


There are also lot of tribal norms and cultural habits that goes against the teaching of Islam existing in many parts of the Muslim world, an example I gave earlier is Honour killing something Islam condemns strongly however a society cultural may be so strong to the point where it rebuke the Islamic ruling so that it can follow the said culture.

Unfortunately however since these people carry the Muslim tag, their actions are taken as that of a real Muslim.
Thats why I tell non-Muslim to read about Islam from its original sources and judge by your self whether an action belong to Islam or no.

Read about the Islamic history at the time of the prophet and his companions when Islam was being practised in its highest form and purity.

katydid wrote: »

I don't remember the site I found the quotations from the Qur'an on. Why does it matter? They are true, are they not?

When your doing an academic research it's not very professional to cite Wikipedia as a reference, similarly some of these sites out their especially the ones I mentioned, are written by people who preach against Islam,
Therefore their words and the way they present verses and Hadith will contain alot of bias, misinformation and explanation hence I directed you to a site that's contain a source of information written by Muslim scholars who are not trying to mislead you but are presenting the truth using their knowledge and evidence from the Quran and Hadith to back it up.

katydid wrote: »

I told you it wasn't such a good idea suggesting I read up on the Qur'an. I found more than you bargained for...

No, it's a really good idea, I strongly suggest that you read it because reading it is different then sometimes viewing misleading sites that presents verses without explanation and context to suit their purpose, reading it will be a good idea.
If anything I already expected what you would present since I already hinted at the Issue of inheritance before you mentioned it,there are really very few verses in the Quran that can be counted with your fingers out of 6000+ verses that appear to promote inequality while in reality once understood and put into context do not.



This is probably the best response you gave to me so far, in that you divided and presented my responses and commented on them rather then directly responding, It also shows you read what I have written very well indicated by the fact that I didn't need to repeat anything which I have expected to do a lot judging by how extensive and heavy what I wrote was.

~thanks for that.

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

I hope by now and after what you have read that it's clear in the issue of testimony which is only mentioned once in the Quran, it's quite evident that no inequality between a man or women is indicated hence there's no contradiction once I quote verses that supports the Idea of equality because there's nothing against equality in that verse.



Please madam do not put words in my mouth, I have said that the Quran applies to every day and age and mentioned this statement in this exact wording only once so far.

The Qur'an can be explained, however not everyone can do this and the mufasireen/interpretors (exegetes) listed 15 fields that must be mastered before one can authoritatively interpret the Quran

"A Quranic tafsir will often explain intent or provide places and times, not contained in Quranic verses, as well as give restriction of meanings, or explanations for why verses seem contradictory.


I have not understood exactly what you meant by contextualisation so I looked up a definition and I will answer in light of it

"Generally, to contextualize an idea, statement or event is to place it within its larger setting in which it acquires its true and complete meaning."

This is of course taking into account by the Mufasireen/interpretors when they attempt to interpret the Qur'an.




In the context of the Muslim daily prayers which need to be performed every day by a man and a women, when a women does not perform them for the period of her menstruation a man continues to performs them, am not even sure if the word "deficient" is an accurate translation of the Arabic word used "Naqisa'tu" as it could also mean to have "little or less" of something.

As to why Muslim women cannot pray during her menstrual cycle,not that it's any issue for the Muslim women as she can continue to supplicate and make Duaa to god, however it's because the prophet of Islam have so, and we as Muslim are obliged to obey; knowing full well the the prophet would not issue a command that would bring any harm to his followers.



#1)If no default backup system such as this existed, this opens the possibility to much argument, hostility, legal action, delays and the outcome would likely favour those with more power/wealth/influence, thus leaving the disadvantaged even more disadvantaged.

#2)Under Islamic law men are obliged to take on this duty of care for maintenance of the family/household from a financial perspective. If the man is poor and his wife is rich, he still has this duty of care however his wife can support him of her own free will and she's not obliged to do so.

#3)Your right men and women are not treated equally in this regards, I hope you understood the parable I stuck with the milk and how equality in some regards can do more harm then good, and while they are not treated equally such division as I have explained, provide justice and fairness to both the man and women since under Islamic law one's duty of care is larger then the other and naturally requires more then the other.

And to remind you that even in the modern European and American laws as I mentioned before men and women are treated differently in alot of aspects of the law in a way that is fair to each.



Madam if you bought a brand new car and gave it to your friend to drive unfortunately however he had a crash with it, would you blame the car or your friend?

Obviously you will blame your friend, similarly Islam is the car don't blame Islam for the actions of Muslim, If you see a Muslim that drinks, you cannot say that his religion allows him to drink because it clearly doesn't. His action lead him to drink

take it from me as a Muslim that in this day an age most of the Muslims are very far from the teaching of Islam.
Drinking,gambling and usury/interest are widespread in most Muslim countries even Saudi Arabia that claim to follow Sharia law deals with interest on of the issues Islam prohibited strongly, you visit Makkah and you will see pornography being sold outside the mosque and prostitution being practice by supposedly "Muslim people"


There are also lot of tribal norms and cultural habits that goes against the teaching of Islam existing in many parts of the Muslim world, unfortunately however since these people carry the Muslim tag, their actions are taken as that of a real Muslim.
Thats why I tell non-Muslim to read about Islam from its original sources and judge by your self whether an action belong to Islam or no.

Read about the Islamic history at the time of the prophet and his companions when Islam was being practised in its highest form and purity.



When your doing an academic research it's not very professional to cite Wikipedia as a reference, similarly some of these sites out their especially the ones I mentioned, are written by people who preach against Islam,
Therefore their words and the way they present verses and Hadith will contain alot of bias, misinformation and explanation hence I directed you to a site that's contain a source of information written by Muslim scholars who are not trying to mislead you but are presenting the truth using their knowledge and evidence from the Quran and Hadith to back it up.



No, it's a really good idea, I strongly suggest that you read it because reading it is different then sometimes viewing misleading sites that presents verses without explanation and context to suit their purpose, reading it will be a good idea.



This is probably the best response you gave to me so far, in that you divided and presented my responses and commented on them rather then directly responding, It also shows you read what I have written very well indicated by the fact that I didn't need to repeat anything which I have expected to do a lot judging by how extensive and heavy what I wrote was.

~thanks for that.

The issue of testimony is mentioned more than once. I have provided examples from different surahs and elsewhere in the Qur'an. As you did yourself. You can't be serious trying to claim it's only mentioned once?

How is it quite evident from the words ""if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses," that there is no inequality? Let me give you a simple mathematics lesson - two does not equal three. This is not law that differentiates in a fair way; it's law that differentiates unfairly and unequally.

"I have said that the Quran applies to every day and age "

But you agree it can be contextualised, right? And that the cited extracts about the value of men and women's testimony doesn't apply today because of this contextualisation?

"In the context of the Muslim daily prayers which need to be performed every day by a man and a women, when a women does not perform them for the period of her menstruation a man continues to performs them, am not even sure if the word "deficient" is an accurate translation of the Arabic word used "Naqisa'tu" as it could also mean to have "little or less" of something. "

Fair enough. I hope that the word is translated wrongly, because as it stands it's highly insulting to devout women. Your "explanation" for menstruating women being excused religion duty is nonsense, however. I presume you made an error when you said "it's because the prophet of Islam have so, and we as Muslim are obliged to obey; knowing full well the the prophet would not issue a command that would bring any harm to his followers. " Do you mean "said so"? If so, your "explanation" for this is that Mohammed said that menstruating women don't have to fulfil their religious duty but didn't explain why? This is not an explanation. How could a menstruating women possibly bring harm to anyone? Bizarre doesn't start to describe it.

I don't understand why the fact that a lack of a will might cause dissension or trouble should justify discrimination against women. But it doesn't really matter, the fact remains that it IS discrimination. Even the fact that Islamic law requires the man to take financial responsibility for women is discriminatory; it doesn't allow women the dignity and self respect of being responsible for their own welfare, and treats them like children.

No, it's certainly not a good idea to cite Wikipedia. What has that got to do with this discussion? I cited verses from the Qur'an; does it matter where the came from? I agree totally that one shouldn't take verses out of context - IF you are prepared to accept that context is important.

"most of the Muslims are very far from the teaching of Islam."

I agree totally. My point was that Islam is clearly interpreted differently by different Muslims -this person is an Islamic scholar, and no doubt believes that what he did is justifiable under Islam. So therefore you must agree that the contents of the Qur'an are not as clear-cut as you try to claim that they are.

I always read what you write and I always address your points. The problem is that you don't always respond. You often just quote irrelevant passages from the Qur'an, or repeat the same thing over and over again.

What you have to accept is that all the examples I have provided, and many of those you have provided do prove discrimination. That in itself is does not prove that Islam today discriminates against women. The Bible is full of similar examples. From my understanding of Islam, it is believed to be the inerrant and literal word of God, through the pen of Mohammed, and is not up for challenge or dispute. Which means that today in 2014 the discriminatory verses still apply.

Defender OF Faith

katydid wrote: »

The issue of testimony is mentioned more than once. I have provided examples from different surahs and elsewhere in the Qur'an. As you did yourself. You can't be serious trying to claim it's only mentioned once?

The issue of the testimony is only mentioned in chapter 2 verse 282. This is the verse that you mentioned and I mentioned. there is no other verses regarding the testimony that you have mentioned because they don't exist, rather you pointed toward a hadith regarding the matter.

The other verse you mentioned regard the inheritance.

katydid wrote: »

How is it quite evident from the words ""if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses," that there is no inequality?

I though you read the explanation I provided have you not? why are you quoting the verse rather then what I explained because this is the topic of discussion and by quoting the verse I would need to present the explanation again.

If you have understood what I said you will see that the The verse as a whole when taken into contextdoes not address the question of the status of the testimony. It rather addresses the methods of verification and establishment of confidence about the individual's rights at the moment of transaction.

Quoting the famous Islamic jurisprudent Ibn Taimeya who clarifies that the verse was discussing the condition of transaction not the legal testimony before a judge.

He added that a woman’s forgetfulness and hence her need for another woman to confirm her testimony in situations of deals is not a nature in all woman, but it rather has to do with experience and practice (in financial affairs), so if a woman has experience in financial matters and was known to have piety then her testimony alone is accepted


Refer back to:

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

In Islam the testimony of men and women weigh equally. we will give some examples in which their testimonies are equally weighed.

There is a stronger proof for equality in the Qur'an's statement that the woman is just like the man in the type of testimony known as the oath of condemnation [which is An oath in which either the husband or the wife accuses his or her partner of adultery and the only witness is one of them.]

"And as for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves, let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies (i.e. testifies four times) by Allah that he be one of those who speak the truth. And the fifth (testimony) (should be) invoking the Curse of Allah on him if he be one of those who tell a lie (against her). But it shall avert the punishment (of stoning to death) from her, if she bears witness four times by Allah, that he (her husband) is telling a lie. And the fifth (testimony) should be that the Wrath of Allah be upon her if (her husband) speaks the truth". (Surah 24:6 to 9)


That is, four repetitions of the oath or testimony by the man concluded by an invocation of his damnation by Allah if he is lying, countered by and invalidated by four repetitions of the woman's counter statement, also followed by an invocation of Allah's wrath upon her if she is lying.

B. Pledge of Islam :
Women doing pledge of Islam with the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, did not need another woman to support her claim... it was equally valid as that of a man. And she did not need her father or husband's permission to do so either.

also Ayesha, may Allah be pleased with her, is considered as one of the four people who quoted more than 2000 hadith (Prophet’s saying). Many other woman reported many hadiths and their word was considered as valid by Muslim scholars.

The Verse says : "And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, tile other can remind her. And the witnesses should not refuse whethey are called on (for evidence)." (Surah 2:282 )

The scholar Mahmud Shaltut says: The verse does not address the question of the status of the testimony. It rather addresses the methods of verification and establishment of confidence about the individual's rights at the moment of transaction.

The verse actually begins: "O you who believe! When you contract a debt for a fixed period, write it down. Let a scribe write it down in justice between you. Let not the scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him," until it reaches " And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two woman, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her." (Surah 2:282 )

Therefore the situation is one of verification and documentation of rights and not one of judgement. Thus the verse points to the best ways of documentation and verification by which partners in a deal can have maximum security. This therefore does not mean that a single woman's, or a group of woman's testimony without a man's does not count in establishing rights nor is to be taken by a judge since the maximum required in jurisdiction is "evidence".

Along this line of thinking, jurisprudent Ibn Al-Qayyim establishes that "evidence" in Islamic Law is more comprehensive than testimony; confirming "evidence" is the factor in establishing rights, what makes it "evident" and consequently what is to be considered by the judge.

The judge pronounces his verdict on the basis of decisive evidence, even if it were a non-Muslim's testimony as long as he feels it worthy of his trust.

This leads the scholar to the conclusion that when two woman's testimonies are counted as one man's testimony, it is not because of some weakness or flaw in her mentality which would involve, in turn, a defect in woman's humanity.

The verse, however, was so worded as to address the norms of that time, which are still very much the same for the majority of women. They do not attend debt registration sessions or transactions.
The fact that some women take part in such activities does not alter the basic facts of life that it is not very common among women to get involved in financial transactions. Yet again, the verse serves as guidance on maximum verification. In some places, the tendency is for a woman to make transactions and witness the writing of debts; it is the people's right to accept a woman's testimony as they accept that of a man as long as they do this with equal confidence in both sexes’ memories.

The verse directly addresses people who lend or borrow money over a fixed period. It advises them that if they are involved in such dealings, an agreement between the two parties must be written down, and to avoid dispute and damage, only witnesses who are honest, reliable and morally sound should be appointed. At the same time, their personal involvements and occupations should be suited to fulfill this responsibility in a befitting manner. The verse does not at all mean that a law suit shall stand proven in a court only if at least two men or one man and two women bear witness to it.

The famous Islamic jurisprudent Sheikh Muhammad Abdou when commenting on the verse :
"O you who believe! When you contract a debt for a fixed period, write it down. Let a scribe write it down in justice between you. Let not the scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him," until it reaches " And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two woman, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her." (Surah 2:282 )

He said that cause of this verse was that it was not the custom of women in that age to be involved in financial affairs that’s why her memory in financial deals is weaker than that of a man however this is not the case when it comes to domestic affairs where a woman’s memory is stronger than that of a man.

During the time of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, there were Muslim women who did business, their testimonies were not questioned. If she is the sole owner of a business it would be ludicrous to have her find another woman to validate her agreement. So this is not even extended to all business transactions... only those in which she is not directly involved.

During the time of Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, a lady, Al Shafa bint Abdullah ibn abd Shams, was assigned the position of official business transactor/manager of the market of Medina... if her testimony was not valid how could she have been appointed such a position. It would be very inconvenient for her to go seek another woman to validate all her testimonies or transactions.

The verse does not address the question of the status of the testimony. It rather addresses the methods of verification and establishment of confidence about the individual's rights at the moment of transaction.

Also the famous Islamic jurisprudent Ibn Taimeya clarifies that the verse was discussing the condition of transaction not the legal testimony before a judge.

He added that a woman’s forgetfulness and hence her need for another woman to confirm her testimony in situations of deals is not a nature in all woman, but it rather has to do with experience and practice (in financial affairs), so if a woman has experience in financial matters and was known to have piety then her testimony alone is accepted

This is not my explanation it's the explanation of scholars that devoted their life to the study and understanding of this religion.

katydid wrote: »

"I have said that the Quran applies to every day and age "

But you agree it can be contextualised, right? And that the cited extracts about the value of men and women's testimony doesn't apply today because of this contextualisation?

You see am not an authority that can interpret or contextualise the Qur'an but as I mentioned the mufasireen/interpretors (exegetes) listed 15 fields that must be mastered before one can authoritatively interpret the Quran, & the issue of contextualisation is of course taking into account by the Mufasireen/interpretors when they attempt to interpret the Qur'an, determining the situations were verses may or might not apply. It's up to the jurist to examine the situation and decide whether or not a specific rule or law will apply.

katydid wrote: »

If so, your "explanation" for this is that Mohammed said that menstruating women don't have to fulfil their religious duty but didn't explain why? This is not an explanation. How could a menstruating women possibly bring harm to anyone? Bizarre doesn't start to describe it.

A menstruating women doesn't harm any one of course what does prayer has to do with harming anybody? The hadith:

Al-Aswad narrated it from 'A'isha that she observed: I used to wash the head of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), while I was in a state of menstruation.

It has been recorded that the prophet embraced his wives during menstruation, indicating from an Islamic perspective that there's nothing wrong with a menstruating women.

When the prophet said that: 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menstruation? from this the scholars of Islam has deduced that when a women is menstruating she is excused from her prayer.

As to why a women cannot pray during her menstrual cycle; some menstruating women might find performing ablution/Wudu 5 times a day to pray difficult during her cycle, due to the emotional disturbances associated with menstruation. that can range from irritability, to tiredness, or "weepiness"

As a women this should not be new to you and therefore if a Muslim women were to suffer from such symptoms she's excused from performing the prayer, however if she feels fine and normal she can perform her obligation and pray.

katydid wrote: »

I don't understand why the fact that a lack of a will might cause dissension or trouble should justify discrimination against women. But it doesn't really matter, the fact remains that it IS discrimination.

#1) "My father left this land to me"
"No my father left it to me.."
"What about his car he loved me the most so am sure he was going to give it to me"
It speaks for it self the kind of dissension and trouble a family might go through especially when more then one sibling is present if a will is absent, hence why Islam introduced such a system.

#2) I think you missed it where I have said that many western laws treat the genders differently based on their sexes on a way however that is fair and brings the most justice to both here are the examples again:

"Presumed paternity laws, post-conception reproductive rights and child support, alimony orders, the gynocentric/misandric definition of rape, the treatment of statutory rape victims pertaining to pregnancy (ie. girls can have an abortion that is paid for by the state, but boys will have to pay child support), public funding for female domestic violence shelters and a lack of public funds for male shelters, the requirement of men exclusively to register with selective service, etc...


There isn't enough space here to go into all the issues that coincide with gender & the law, and how it plays out."

Similarly the situation with the inheritance because Islam has its own rules governing family life, placing the financial burden on the man and hence in the absence of the will it ordered the inheritance to be divided in such a way.

Refer to this simple example I presented to see how fair and justice this system is when applied to an Islamic setting:

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

This is like having to men and giving each 2000$ one of them you cost nothing while the other you cost purchasing items worth 1500$, in reality which is given more?

Let say man died an left 300000 in inheritance leaving behind one son and daughter.

If the man have left no will by default a man will receive 200000 and the women 100000, in the beginning this is evidently in the favour of a man and injustice to the women in the eyes of those with narrow vision. But those with a healthy sight will look far ahead just as they see what's close, because he understand that the man will get married and pay 50000 in dowry while the women will get married and receive 50000 in dowry, hence the man now has 50k less and a women has 50k more. The man has the financial obligation to support his family so he spends some of what he received on his family and constantly his money is getting less and less, while his sister is taken care of by her husband and her money remains the same. Not so long from now will the women have more money then the man.

katydid wrote: »

Even the fact that Islamic law requires the man to take financial responsibility for women is discriminatory; it doesn't allow women the dignity and self respect of being responsible for their own welfare, and treats them like children.

And who said that she cant? how is taking the financial responsibility of your partner being treated like a child? not many women are well off like you might be, and even in the western society many women depends on their husband or partner for financial support. Isn't it considered chivalry for the man to take care of his partner financial needs?

A Muslim women can work and get a job and share with her husband the financial responsibility, if she feels the need. However she will not be questioned by God in the day of resurrection as to why she didn't provide for her family, this question will be directed to the man and he will bear the burden of providing the answer.

katydid wrote: »

"most of the Muslims are very far from the teaching of Islam."

I agree totally. My point was that Islam is clearly interpreted differently by different Muslims -this person is an Islamic scholar, and no doubt believes that what he did is justifiable under Islam. So therefore you must agree that the contents of the Qur'an are not as clear-cut as you try to claim that they are.

I seriously doubt that, for us to decide such a matter we need to look at his qualification, his writings to judge his level of understanding and Islamic opinions and thoughts, before establishing whether he's a scholar of Islam or not, as not everyone who reads a book or two can become a scholar.

You see the Qu'an is clear and what's unclear is referred to the scholars of Tafsir/interpretation whom the Islamic world has accepted, and due to their knowledge were deemed worthy of interpreting the book of God, however you have deviant sects and group that tries to interpret it to suits its ideology without any knowledge of Tafsir or reference to the known established scholars, throwing verses out of the Qur'an that does not befit them.
A clear example of this is sick terrible crime the Taliban committed recently. Killing 100+ Muslim students in Pakistan in cold blood, have those people not read this verse?
" But whoever kills a believer intentionally - his recompense is Hell, wherein he will abide eternally, and Allah has become angry with him and has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment."

“Whoever kills an innocent soul, who has not taken a life or brought destruction to society, is as if has killed the entire humanity; and whoever saves an innocent soul is as if he has saved the entire humanity.” (Qur`an 5, 32)

These people have not killed a soul they killed 100+ innocent souls. They clearly were aware of such verse however since it didn't suit their agenda they simply throw it out & In Islam you cannot believe in parts of the Qu'an being the word of God and ignore other parts as God have said:

So do you believe in part of the Scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the Day of Resurrection they will be sent back to the severest of punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.

Such people are accurately described by our prophet as Khawarij-meaning literally 'those who went out- in the following Hadith

"There will come a people from the east who recite the Quran but it will not go beyond their throats. They will pass through the religion just as an arrow pierces its target and they will not return to it just as the arrow does not return to the bow."


This is the most dangerous sect in Islam existing today in the form of ISIS,Taliban and those who supports them.

katydid wrote: »

Which means that today in 2014 the discriminatory verses still apply.

As you mentioned your self the Qu'an is the undisputed word of God and God can never be unjust toward someone based on his gender,that's what I set out to show you from the start that these discriminatory verse may appear at such, however once you refer them back to the scholars you will understand and realize that discrimination was not even an issue to begin with.

There are some verse of the Qu'an which might appear unclear or ambiguous with their meaning, but this is only to us of limited knowledge and hence why the scholars are their to help us out when we cannot understand a verse probably.

looksee

DOF: Every word of explanation you have offered in the above post proves katydid's arguments completely. Your argument is 'the Qu'an is indisputably right and if you think differently a scholar will interpret it for you and prove that it is right'. In this situation there is really no point arguing with you. The circular arguments that you continue to put forward are actually doing a disservice to your faith.

I think I would rather you would say, 'yes women do not have equal rights and responsibilities compared to men in our society, based on our faith. We believe that it is a man's responsibility to care for his women. If this appears to you to be paternalistic and demeaning to women, well that is your problem, that is what we believe'.

Everything you have said, especially with the obfuscation and circular arguments proves just the opposite to what you are trying to say.

Defender OF Faith

looksee wrote: »

Your argument is 'the Qu'an is indisputably right and if you think differently a scholar will interpret it for you and prove that it is right'.

#1)The argument your presenting is that the Qu'an can be interpreted in any way just to suit your purpose which is false. I have mentioned that there are 15 areas that need to be mastered before attempting to interpret the Qu'an have you mastered any of them to show that the interpretation i presented is wrong?

#2)It appear that your doing what Katydid was doing earlier that's completely disregard the explanation I give and jump directly into conclusions. The explanation I gave highlighted what the verse actually meant since Islam is a religion of equality for both the sexes and anything which appears to contradict with this-So far only 3 verses out of 6000+ appeard to contradict with this notion- they must be given special attention to understand them in context. If you cannot trust what the scholars of Islam have presented your welcome to study Islam and master the field they mastered to try and prove otherwise.

#3)Nothing I have given was my own viewpoint or explanation. What I have presented was the scholars of Islam explanation and for you to deem their explanation flawed you must be ready to say and mention why & just like you visit a Doctor and trust his judgement regarding your illness because such person is qualified to do so; we Muslims trusts the scholars of Islam in their explanation because they are qualified to do so.

#4) You cannot explain the Qur'an according to your emotions, ideas and need absolutely not. There are set rules and areas one must master before interpreting the Qur'an


The mufasireen (exegetes) listed 15 fields that must be mastered before one can authoritatively interpret the Quran in short they are:

QUOTE wrote: »

#1)Classical Arabic: Is how one learns the meaning of each word. Mujahid (rah) said, “It is not permissible for one who holds faith in Allah and the Day of Judgment to speak on the Quran without learning classical Arabic.” In this respect, it should be known that classical Arabic must be mastered in its entirety because one word may have various meanings; a person may only know two or three of them whereas the meaning of that word in the Quran may be altogether different.

#2)Arabic Philology: Is important because any change in the diacritical marks affects the meaning, and understanding the diacritical marks depends on the science of Arabic philology.

#3)Arabic morphology: is important because changes in the configuration of verb and noun forms change the meaning. Ibn Faris said, “A person who misses out on Arabic morphology has missed out on a lot.”

#4)Al-Ishtiqaaq: should be learned because sometimes one word derives from two root words, the meaning of each root word being different. This is the science of etymology which explains the reciprocal relation and radical composition between the root and derived word. For example, masih derives from the root word masah which means “to feel something and to touch something with a wet hand,” but also derives from the root word masaahat which means “to measure.”

#5)Ilm-ul-Ma’ani: is the science by which one figures the syntax through the meaning of a sentence.

#6)Ilm-ul-Bayaan: is the science by which one learns the similes, metaphors, metonymies, zuhoor (evident meanings) and khafa (hidden meanings) of the Arabic language.

#7)Ilm-ul-Badi’: The science by which one learns to interpret sentences which reveal the beauty and eloquence of the spoken and written word. The above mentioned three sciences are categorized as Ilm-ul-Balagha (science of rhetoric). It is one of the most important sciences to a mufassir because he is able to reveal the miraculous nature of the Quran through these three sciences.

#8)Ilm-ul-Qira'at: Dialecticisms of the different readings of the Quran. This science is important because one qira'at (reading) of the Quran may differ in meaning from another, and one learns to favor one reading over another based on the difference in the meanings.

#9)Ilm-ul-Aqaa’id: is important because we cannot attribute the literal meaning of some ayaat to Allah. In this case, one will be required to interpret the ayah as in ‘the hand of Allah is over their hand’.

#10)Usul-ul-Fiqh: are the principles of Islamic Jurisprudence. It is important to master this field so one understands the methodology of legal derivation and interpretation.

#11)Asbaab-ul-Nuzul: is the field by which one learns the circumstances in which an ayah is revealed. It is important because the meaning of the ayah is more clearly understood once the circumstances in which it was revealed are known. Sometimes, the meaning of an ayah is wholly dependent on its historical background.

#12)Ilm-ul-Naskh: is knowledge of the abrogated ayaat. This field is important because abrogated rulings must be separated from the applied rulings.

#13)Fiqh: Jurisprudence. This field is important because one cannot gain an overview of any issue until he has understood its particulars.

#14)Ilm-ul-Hadith: is knowledge of the ahadith which explain mujmal (general) ayaat.

#15)Ilm Laduuni: Last but not least is the endowed knowledge which Allah grants to his closest servants. They are the servants indicated in the hadith: “Allah Y will grant one who acts upon whatever he knows from a knowledge he never knew.”

The explanation I presented is the explanation of scholars who have mastered these field and are not my own explanation. No one can provide a different explanation to what I have given and even if they did it would not be accepted from them unless they proved they are qualified to do so.

The Qur'an is not like the Bible where anyone can interpret the text as freely as he can in a way that will suit his purpose and desire. If a person were to do this with the Qur'an then he's from the khawarij.

Hence the explanation I gave is not from my own point of view. It's an actual interpretation of what's given, you are welcome to accept it, but if you reject it be ready to tell us why.

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

The issue of the testimony is only mentioned in chapter 2 verse 282. This is the verse that you mentioned and I mentioned. there is no other verses regarding the testimony that you have mentioned because they don't exist, rather you pointed toward a hadith regarding the matter.

The other verse you mentioned regard the inheritance.


I though you read the explanation I provided have you not? why are you quoting the verse rather then what I explained because this is the topic of discussion and by quoting the verse I would need to present the explanation again.

If you have understood what I said you will see that the The verse as a whole when taken into contextdoes not address the question of the status of the testimony. It rather addresses the methods of verification and establishment of confidence about the individual's rights at the moment of transaction.

Quoting the famous Islamic jurisprudent Ibn Taimeya who clarifies that the verse was discussing the condition of transaction not the legal testimony before a judge.

He added that a woman’s forgetfulness and hence her need for another woman to confirm her testimony in situations of deals is not a nature in all woman, but it rather has to do with experience and practice (in financial affairs), so if a woman has experience in financial matters and was known to have piety then her testimony alone is accepted


Refer back to:


This is not my explanation it's the explanation of scholars that devoted their life to the study and understanding of this religion.



You see am not an authority that can interpret or contextualise the Qur'an but as I mentioned the mufasireen/interpretors (exegetes) listed 15 fields that must be mastered before one can authoritatively interpret the Quran, & the issue of contextualisation is of course taking into account by the Mufasireen/interpretors when they attempt to interpret the Qur'an, determining the situations were verses may or might not apply. It's up to the jurist to examine the situation and decide whether or not a specific rule or law will apply.


A menstruating women doesn't harm any one of course what does prayer has to do with harming anybody? The hadith:

Al-Aswad narrated it from 'A'isha that she observed: I used to wash the head of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), while I was in a state of menstruation.

It has been recorded that the prophet embraced his wives during menstruation, indicating from an Islamic perspective that there's nothing wrong with a menstruating women.

When the prophet said that: 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menstruation? from this the scholars of Islam has deduced that when a women is menstruating she is excused from her prayer.

As to why a women cannot pray during her menstrual cycle; some menstruating women might find performing ablution/Wudu 5 times a day to pray difficult during her cycle, due to the emotional disturbances associated with menstruation. that can range from irritability, to tiredness, or "weepiness"

As a women this should not be new to you and therefore if a Muslim women were to suffer from such symptoms she's excused from performing the prayer, however if she feels fine and normal she can perform her obligation and pray.



#1) "My father left this land to me"
"No my father left it to me.."
"What about his car he loved me the most so am sure he was going to give it to me"
It speaks for it self the kind of dissension and trouble a family might go through especially when more then one sibling is present if a will is absent, hence why Islam introduced such a system.

#2) I think you missed it where I have said that many western laws treat the genders differently based on their sexes on a way however that is fair and brings the most justice to both here are the examples again:

"Presumed paternity laws, post-conception reproductive rights and child support, alimony orders, the gynocentric/misandric definition of rape, the treatment of statutory rape victims pertaining to pregnancy (ie. girls can have an abortion that is paid for by the state, but boys will have to pay child support), public funding for female domestic violence shelters and a lack of public funds for male shelters, the requirement of men exclusively to register with selective service, etc...


There isn't enough space here to go into all the issues that coincide with gender & the law, and how it plays out."

Similarly the situation with the inheritance because Islam has its own rules governing family life, placing the financial burden on the man and hence in the absence of the will it ordered the inheritance to be divided in such a way.

Refer to this simple example I presented to see how fair and justice this system is when applied to an Islamic setting:





And who said that she cant? how is taking the financial responsibility of your partner being treated like a child? not many women are well off like you might be, and even in the western society many women depends on their husband or partner for financial support. Isn't it considered chivalry for the man to take care of his partner financial needs?

A Muslim women can work and get a job and share with her husband the financial responsibility, if she feels the need. However she will not be questioned by God in the day of resurrection as to why she didn't provide for her family, this question will be directed to the man and he will bear the burden of providing the answer.




I seriously doubt that, for us to decide such a matter we need to look at his qualification, his writings to judge his level of understanding and Islamic opinions and thoughts, before establishing whether he's a scholar of Islam or not, as not everyone who reads a book or two can become a scholar.

You see the Qu'an is clear and what's unclear is referred to the scholars of Tafsir/interpretation whom the Islamic world has accepted, and due to their knowledge were deemed worthy of interpreting the book of God, however you have deviant sects and group that tries to interpret it to suits its ideology without any knowledge of Tafsir or reference to the known established scholars, throwing verses out of the Qur'an that does not befit them.
A clear example of this is sick terrible crime the Taliban committed recently. Killing 100+ Muslim students in Pakistan in cold blood, have those people not read this verse?
" But whoever kills a believer intentionally - his recompense is Hell, wherein he will abide eternally, and Allah has become angry with him and has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment."

“Whoever kills an innocent soul, who has not taken a life or brought destruction to society, is as if has killed the entire humanity; and whoever saves an innocent soul is as if he has saved the entire humanity.” (Qur`an 5, 32)

These people have not killed a soul they killed 100+ innocent souls. They clearly were aware of such verse however since it didn't suit their agenda they simply throw it out & In Islam you cannot believe in parts of the Qu'an being the word of God and ignore other parts as God have said:

So do you believe in part of the Scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the Day of Resurrection they will be sent back to the severest of punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.

Such people are accurately described by our prophet as Khawarij-meaning literally 'those who went out- in the following Hadith

"There will come a people from the east who recite the Quran but it will not go beyond their throats. They will pass through the religion just as an arrow pierces its target and they will not return to it just as the arrow does not return to the bow."


This is the most dangerous sect in Islam existing today in the form of ISIS,Taliban and those who supports them.


As you mentioned your self the Qu'an is the undisputed word of God and God can never be unjust toward someone based on his gender,that's what I set out to show you from the start that these discriminatory verse may appear at such, however once you refer them back to the scholars you will understand and realize that discrimination was not even an issue to begin with.

There are some verse of the Qu'an which might appear unclear or ambiguous with their meaning, but this is only to us of limited knowledge and hence why the scholars are their to help us out when we cannot understand a verse probably.

Look, this discussion is going nowhere. You clearly are unable to distinguish between explaining context and accepting that the verses quoted show a disdain for the intellect and integrity of women. Explaining that they arise from a different time is one thing, but you insist that Islam doesn't change, which means that you accept that such things still apply in 2014.

You presumably come from a culture where women don't have the freedom or the confidence women in this country do, and you are not aware of how outrageous and patronising your statements about sexuality and women's fertility are. No, women are not emotionally unstable during their periods, and no, men don't have a larger capacity to love. Many of them may have a higher sex drive (although some women do too), but a desire to have ready access to sex is not the same thing as love; a male in a polygamic marriage doesn't love four people equally. He uses them for sex. At least let's be honest about it.

I think you are trying to be honest, but you are confused, and you don't really understand the open nature of the relationship between men and women, or believe in the true equality of the sexes. You are basing your opinions on a false understanding of the nature of women.

And, more importantly, you think that by explaining context, you are proving that Islam doesn't discriminate against women, while what you have actually done is confirmed my initial point. You provided me with examples of discrimination, which you "explained" from your viewpoint of a flawed understanding of women.

There really is no point in continuing this discussion at this level. Unless you have a revelation, you are not going to understand that women are not how you see them, weak, emotional creatures, but are fully capable of carrying out the same roles in life as men, should they choose to. I think you need to look around you at the strong women in public life, and in your community, and ask yourself if they are emotionally unstable every month, for example. And think about the unique relationship of love between two people, and how it's not the same as having easy sex on hand by having four wives instead of one...

Defender OF Faith

katydid wrote: »

Look, this discussion is going nowhere. You clearly are unable to distinguish between explaining context and accepting that the verses quoted show a disdain for the intellect and integrity of women.

To you and me who both have no scholarship foundation to interpret the Qu'an of course it will appear to show such a thing, however Muslims know that in the entire Qu'an composed of 6236 verses all of which speaks about equality between the sexes, only 4 verses appears to contradict since the Qu'an said however:

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.


If this book was written by Muhammed we would accept the contradictions as a human who made a mistake but it wasn't it's a direct revelation from God. Hence these verses that appears to contradict are explained as I mentioned beforehand by the scholars of Qu'an; such people spend their life studying this science. From the tender age of 7 most of such scholars have memorized the Qu'an the full 6236 verse in the heart perfectly, before diving into more complex matters hence why the Islamic world have accepted such people and deemed them worthy of interpreting the Qu'an and I have not presented anything outside from what they presented.

If you wish to argue against any given interpretation either:

A)Present the argument of a scholar that argued otherwise

B)Become qualified and explain how such interpretation is false.

katydid wrote: »

You presumably come from a culture where women don't have the freedom or the confidence women in this country do,

You speak as if you know me. I do not come from any such culture, all that I have said is what the Qu'an and the prophet intended to, and that's equality between the genders, and providing women with all the freedom and confidence she was not given before Islam to become a productive member of the society.

katydid wrote: »

and you are not aware of how outrageous and patronising your statements about sexuality and women's fertility are. No, women are not emotionally unstable during their periods.

#1) I made no comments regarding women fertility, I my self surprised as to where did this come from.

#2)Am sorry I wasn't quoting my culture I was quoting and referring to what science have said, Numerous studies have "reported a significant influence of ovarian hormone status on cognition and person perception" there are many menstrually related mood issues supported by scientific findings I'll link a few below if your unaware.


Studies:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453008000966
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018506X07002085
http://archneurpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=645067

Health related articles to menstruation:
http://www.webmd.com/women/guide/estrogen-and-womens-emotions
http://www.self.com/flash/health-blog/2012/02/how-your-menstrual-cycle-affec/
http://www.womenshealthmag.com/health/period-cycle-mood-changes
http://www.med.unc.edu/psych/wmd/mood-disorders/menstrually-related

Now it is well known that normal women suffer varying degrees of discomfort preceding the onset of menstruation, hence am not sure why are you arguing against this specially when you have no evidence to back your claim.
It's because of such emotional disturbances that results and I repeat disturbances I never said instability; A Muslim women is excused from performing the 5 daily prayers.

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

As to why a women cannot pray during her menstrual cycle; some menstruating women might find performing ablution/Wudu 5 times a day to pray difficult during her cycle, due to the emotional disturbances associated with menstruation. that can range from irritability, to tiredness, or "weepiness"

As a women this should not be new to you and therefore if a Muslim women were to suffer from such symptoms she's excused from performing the prayer, however if she feels fine and normal she can perform her obligation and pray.

katydid wrote: »

And, more importantly, you think that by explaining context, you are proving that Islam doesn't discriminate against women, while what you have actually done is confirmed my initial point. You provided me with examples of discrimination, which you "explained" from your viewpoint of a flawed understanding of women.

#1)Nothing I have given was my own viewpoint or explanation. What I have presented was the scholars of Islam explanation and for you to deem their explanation flawed you must be ready to say and mention why & just like you visit a Doctor and trust his judgement regarding your illness because such person is qualified to do so; we Muslims trusts the scholars of Islam in their explanation because they are qualified to do so.

#2) I told you beforehand that you cannot explain the Qur'an according to your emotions, ideas and need absolutely not. There are set rules and areas one must master before interpreting the Qur'an


The mufasireen (exegetes) listed 15 fields that must be mastered before one can authoritatively interpret the Quran in short they are:

QUOTE wrote: »

#1)Classical Arabic: Is how one learns the meaning of each word. Mujahid (rah) said, “It is not permissible for one who holds faith in Allah and the Day of Judgment to speak on the Quran without learning classical Arabic.” In this respect, it should be known that classical Arabic must be mastered in its entirety because one word may have various meanings; a person may only know two or three of them whereas the meaning of that word in the Quran may be altogether different.

#2)Arabic Philology: Is important because any change in the diacritical marks affects the meaning, and understanding the diacritical marks depends on the science of Arabic philology.

#3)Arabic morphology: is important because changes in the configuration of verb and noun forms change the meaning. Ibn Faris said, “A person who misses out on Arabic morphology has missed out on a lot.”

#4)Al-Ishtiqaaq: should be learned because sometimes one word derives from two root words, the meaning of each root word being different. This is the science of etymology which explains the reciprocal relation and radical composition between the root and derived word. For example, masih derives from the root word masah which means “to feel something and to touch something with a wet hand,” but also derives from the root word masaahat which means “to measure.”

#5)Ilm-ul-Ma’ani: is the science by which one figures the syntax through the meaning of a sentence.

#6)Ilm-ul-Bayaan: is the science by which one learns the similes, metaphors, metonymies, zuhoor (evident meanings) and khafa (hidden meanings) of the Arabic language.

#7)Ilm-ul-Badi’: The science by which one learns to interpret sentences which reveal the beauty and eloquence of the spoken and written word. The above mentioned three sciences are categorized as Ilm-ul-Balagha (science of rhetoric). It is one of the most important sciences to a mufassir because he is able to reveal the miraculous nature of the Quran through these three sciences.

#8)Ilm-ul-Qira'at: Dialecticisms of the different readings of the Quran. This science is important because one qira'at (reading) of the Quran may differ in meaning from another, and one learns to favor one reading over another based on the difference in the meanings.

#9)Ilm-ul-Aqaa’id: is important because we cannot attribute the literal meaning of some ayaat to Allah. In this case, one will be required to interpret the ayah as in ‘the hand of Allah is over their hand’.

#10)Usul-ul-Fiqh: are the principles of Islamic Jurisprudence. It is important to master this field so one understands the methodology of legal derivation and interpretation.

#11)Asbaab-ul-Nuzul: is the field by which one learns the circumstances in which an ayah is revealed. It is important because the meaning of the ayah is more clearly understood once the circumstances in which it was revealed are known. Sometimes, the meaning of an ayah is wholly dependent on its historical background.

#12)Ilm-ul-Naskh: is knowledge of the abrogated ayaat. This field is important because abrogated rulings must be separated from the applied rulings.

#13)Fiqh: Jurisprudence. This field is important because one cannot gain an overview of any issue until he has understood its particulars.

#14)Ilm-ul-Hadith: is knowledge of the ahadith which explain mujmal (general) ayaat.

#15)Ilm Laduuni: Last but not least is the endowed knowledge which Allah grants to his closest servants. They are the servants indicated in the hadith: “Allah Y will grant one who acts upon whatever he knows from a knowledge he never knew.”

The explanation I presented to you is the explanation of scholars who have mastered these field and are not my own explanation. No one can provide a different explanation to what I have given and even if they did it would not be accepted from them unless they proved they are qualified to do so.

The Qur'an is not like the Bible where anyone can interpret the text as freely as he can in a way that will suit his purpose and desire. If a person were to do this with the Qur'an then he's from the khawarij.

Hence the explanation I gave is not from my own point of view. It's an actual interpretation of what's given, you are welcome to accept it, but if you reject it be ready to tell us why.

katydid wrote: »

You are not going to understand that women are not how you see them, weak, emotional creatures, but are fully capable of carrying out the same roles in life as men, should they choose to. I think you need to look around you at the strong women in public life,

#1)For you to feel the need to put words in my mouth clearly shows that you are out of depth. I never said nor believe that women are weak emotional creatures where did you get this from? if anything I believe in the opposite, I believe that a man should learn from a women patient,perverseness and strength and this is what my religion had taught me and what I was trying to convey to you throughout this discussion.

#2)There are plenty of strong women that have set heroic examples and rose to prominent position in my religion hence I don't need to look far, I have provided you with examples of many but it appears that you have not read what I said.

Since you feel like finishing the discussion I will wrap up by quoting all that I have said about women from the start of this discussion till now; so you can see in context of what I have said that no where along this discussion that I think of women that you concluded that I did:

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

I can simply finish my answer by saying go ask the Muslim women if she is being oppressed, Women are converting to Islam at such rapid rates that they outnumber men 4 to 1, reports a study on female converts to Islam titled “Women and Conversion to Islam: The American Women’s experience.”
Why would these females convert to a religion that oppresses them? unless of course you are gravely misunderstanding something.

Here is an excerpt from one woman named Elizabeth Lmgart Ancherage who was examined in the study and explains why Islam grants women freedom:

“In Islam, we have the right to have property, we inherit, we keep our last names, and we don’t have to take our husbands identities. In Christianity people just don’t understand how the Bible sees women, and I think people really should be working into that, and see how Christians think of women. Muslim women had rights and they can own property and that stuff, Christians were debating if we had so.”


"I found the truth that Islam treat women and men equally. In Islam, women have their right to vote in year 600. Men and Women dressed in a decent way. They are prohibited to tease each other. Indeed, the women need to elongate their dresses." Kristiane Backer German TV presenter and convert

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

That's fine if you do not want me to refer to you in such a matter. Us Muslim and you can see as you read through this forum refer to each other formally by saying brother or sister rather then Mr/sir/Madam since we all came from one father and mother Adam and eve, hence we are brothers in humanity.

However you accused me of not regarding you as an equal which makes me wonder have you been reading anything I have said so far were did I say "I dont view you as my equal"? our prophet have said

"Women are but the sisters of man the one who honour them is honourable and those who humiliate them are but wicked" Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal


And in my holy book it says:
"The believers, men and women, are helpers, supporters and friends of one and other; they enjoin good and forbig people from evil; they perform prayer give Zakat and obey Allah and his messenger. Allah will have his mercy on them. Surely Allah is All-Might, All-Wise" 9:71

(Verily, the Muslim men and women, the believing men and women, the men and the women who are obedient (to Allah), the men and women who are truthful, the men and the women who are patient, the men and the women who are humble (before their Lord Allah), the men and the women who give Sadaqat (i.e. Zakat, and alms, etc.), the men and the women who observe Saum (fast), the men and the women who guard their chastity and the men and the women who remember Allah much with their hearts and tongues Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a great reward (i.e. Paradise).)


Madam my religion teaches and preaches that you are my equal, it even gives you more rights then me in certain areas, it's your own Bible that preaches otherwise.

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

All this time I was arguing about how Islam up lifted women and gave them their full rights, how women in Islam are considered a valuable contributors to society, how Islam honoured the women and gave her rights triple that of the man in some cases.

A Muslim will kneel down to his mothers feet in humility because his prophet told his paradise is under her feet do you honestly think I would do that if I considered them sub-servants?
Seriously how can I argue for a subservient role of women in Islam while saying this?

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Madam in Islam we do not put you only on a pedestal we put you on top of our head, a whole chapter in the Quran is called "the chapter of Women" and "The chapter of Mary" you mention that other Christian denomination treat women equally but why? because they disregard the part of the scriptures that say treat women as non-equal then men.
In Islam we don't need to do that as all interpretation of pure Islam meaning Islam without interference from cultural and social norms, treat women with equality.

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Why are women not leaders in mainstream Islam? I mean you are not a Muslim so you will obviously be asking this, but living in the west how much exposure to you really get into the Mainstream Islamic world to know this?

Let me tell you that there are plenty of women that are religious leaders in today Muslim world the following are just few examples:

Beginning with the greatest women in Islam next to Mary the virgin by the peace and blessing of Allah be upon her the Prophet wife Khadija and his daughter Fatima are highly reserved figure in Islam to this very day.

Then you have his wife Aisha that remains a position of authority when it comes to Hadith and knowledge regarding the hadith.

There are much more example from the prophet life and Islamic history about influential women there are women among Islam that have even lead military conquests but here are some quick examples from the modern world.

I note that many names will be unfamiliar since of course your not a Muslim and have no such interest in these women also the Wikipedia page that might be provided will be in Arabic as these women are only popular in the Muslim world and among Muslim scholars it's just proof that these people exist.

Um Saad the women with the shortest chain of recitation to the prophet she taught many of today Islam greatest scholars of Quran. http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A3%D9%85_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3%D8%B9%D8%AF

Biaan ali al tantawi another great scholar one that is directly related to Al al Tantawi one of the Islamic world golden writers and theologians.
She has a program on the most popular Islamic channel in the Muslim world namely Iqraa
here's a link to an episode of her program https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4M6DNGNwBQ

Dr. Rufaida Al.Habash and also the President of AlAndaluse Institute for Islamic Studies in Hama,Syria.
She also have a program on Iqraa channel and is a very influential women in the Muslim world here is a link to her website
http://alandaluse.net/en/

Hmm there's more but I cant remember their name at the moment since I dont follow their program that much but if your interested I can do some research and present some if your looking for some that are active in the west you have Dr. Rafeef Ziadeh and Dr. Manal Fakhoury.

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

One of the bravest soldiers among the history of Islam was a women by the name of Nusaybah bint Ka'b, a women every Muslim holds to a very high regards.

The bravery of this women should be taught in western universities today. As an early convert to Islam she participated in the battle of Uhud, were women role involved bringing water to the soldiers.

Nusaybah entered the battle, carrying a sword and shield, once the Muslims were being defeated and began to retreat. Her skill with the sword in the battle of Uhud astonished those who saw her. The Prophet said that in whichever direction he turned in the battlefield he could see her defending and protecting him.
When her son got wounded in the battle, she bandaged his arm and told him not to lose courage but continue with his attack on the enemy.

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) smiled when he saw the heroism and courage of both mother and son, and said,
'From where can anyone get courage like you, O Umm 'Umarah?'


I found a nice site that list a number of influential Muslim Women leaders that you might find interesting:
http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/Muslim_Leaders.htm

This quote should of really ended the discussion do you really believe that the leader of a religion that considers you inferior and emotional creatures would say such words to a women?!


I wish you happiness prosperity and peace in the years to come~

And the last of their call will be, "Praise to God, Lord of the worlds"

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

To you and me who both have no scholarship foundation to interpret the Qu'an of course it will appear to show such a thing, however Muslims know that in the entire Qu'an composed of 6236 verses all of which speaks about equality between the sexes, only 4 verses appears to contradict since the Qu'an said however:

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.


If this book was written by Muhammed we would accept the contradictions as a human who made a mistake but it wasn't it's a direct revelation from God. Hence these verses that appears to contradict are explained as I mentioned beforehand by the scholars of Qu'an; such people spend their life studying this science. From the tender age of 7 most of such scholars have memorized the Qu'an the full 6236 verse in the heart perfectly, before diving into more complex matters hence why the Islamic world have accepted such people and deemed them worthy of interpreting the Qu'an and I have not presented anything outside from what they presented.

If you wish to argue against any given interpretation either:

A)Present the argument of a scholar that argued otherwise

B)Become qualified and explain how such interpretation is false.



You speak as if you know me. I do not come from any such culture, all that I have said is what the Qu'an and the prophet intended to, and that's equality between the genders, and providing women with all the freedom and confidence she was not given before Islam to become a productive member of the society.



#1) I made no comments regarding women fertility, I my self surprised as to where did this come from.

#2)Am sorry I wasn't quoting my culture I was quoting and referring to what science have said, Numerous studies have "reported a significant influence of ovarian hormone status on cognition and person perception" there are many menstrually related mood issues supported by scientific findings I'll link a few below if your unaware.


Studies:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453008000966
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018506X07002085
http://archneurpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=645067

Health related articles to menstruation:
http://www.webmd.com/women/guide/estrogen-and-womens-emotions
http://www.self.com/flash/health-blog/2012/02/how-your-menstrual-cycle-affec/
http://www.womenshealthmag.com/health/period-cycle-mood-changes
http://www.med.unc.edu/psych/wmd/mood-disorders/menstrually-related

Now it is well known that normal women suffer varying degrees of discomfort preceding the onset of menstruation, hence am not sure why are you arguing against this specially when you have no evidence to back your claim.
It's because of such emotional disturbances that results and I repeat disturbances I never said instability; A Muslim women is excused from performing the 5 daily prayers.





#1)Nothing I have given was my own viewpoint or explanation. What I have presented was the scholars of Islam explanation and for you to deem their explanation flawed you must be ready to say and mention why & just like you visit a Doctor and trust his judgement regarding your illness because such person is qualified to do so; we Muslims trusts the scholars of Islam in their explanation because they are qualified to do so.

#2) I told you beforehand that you cannot explain the Qur'an according to your emotions, ideas and need absolutely not. There are set rules and areas one must master before interpreting the Qur'an


The mufasireen (exegetes) listed 15 fields that must be mastered before one can authoritatively interpret the Quran in short they are:



The explanation I presented to you is the explanation of scholars who have mastered these field and are not my own explanation. No one can provide a different explanation to what I have given and even if they did it would not be accepted from them unless they proved they are qualified to do so.

The Qur'an is not like the Bible where anyone can interpret the text as freely as he can in a way that will suit his purpose and desire. If a person were to do this with the Qur'an then he's from the khawarij.

Hence the explanation I gave is not from my own point of view. It's an actual interpretation of what's given, you are welcome to accept it, but if you reject it be ready to tell us why.




#1)For you to feel the need to put words in my mouth clearly shows that you are out of depth. I never said nor believe that women are weak emotional creatures where did you get this from? if anything I believe in the opposite, I believe that a man should learn from a women patient,perverseness and strength and this is what my religion had taught me and what I was trying to convey to you throughout this discussion.

#2)There are plenty of strong women that have set heroic examples and rose to prominent position in my religion hence I don't need to look far, I have provided you with examples of many but it appears that you have not read what I said.

Since you feel like finishing the discussion I will wrap up by quoting all that I have said about women from the start of this discussion till now; so you can see in context of what I have said that no where along this discussion that I think of women that you concluded that I did:














This quote should of really ended the discussion do you really believe that the leader of a religion that considers you inferior and emotional creatures would say such words to a women?!


I wish you happiness prosperity and peace in the years to come~

And the last of their call will be, "Praise to God, Lord of the worlds"

Look, this is getting us nowhere. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. If it says the word of a man is worth two of a woman, it is discriminatory towards women. If it says a man can marry four women but a woman can only marry one man, it's discriminatory towards women. If it says a man can inherit double what a woman inherits, it's discriminatory towards women. No matter what the context, the interpretation or the explanation. It says it.

If you are prepared to say that the scripture is wrong or mistake, fine. But you're not. You say it is a direct revelation from God.

So if you want to persist in your illogicality, fine. But I am a person of common sense and intellect - yes, intellect - and my common sense and my intellect tell me that if something is written down and you insist it can't be changed in any way, then that means you think it is valid and applicable.

I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways. Islam can say 1,000 times that men and women are equal, but if it at the same time writes of the kind of thing we've discussed, then those 1,000 times mean nothing.

Think about it..

Defender OF Faith

katydid wrote: »

Look, this is getting us nowhere. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. If it says the word of a man is worth two of a woman, it is discriminatory towards women. If it says a man can marry four women but a woman can only marry one man, it's discriminatory towards women. If it says a man can inherit double what a woman inherits, it's discriminatory towards women. No matter what the context, the interpretation or the explanation. It says it.

For you to ask questions regarding the Quanic verses yet blanatly refuse the explanation scholars of Islam and Qur'an who are masters of this science have gave without pointing out their mistake is pure and utter arrogance and ignorance.

To us this is a book of God and god can never discriminate between people due to their gender adding to the fact that only 4 verses out of 6236 verses appear to do such a thing Therefore special attention need to be given to them

Read what I have said again:

katydid wrote: »

Look, this discussion is going nowhere. You clearly are unable to distinguish between explaining context and accepting that the verses quoted show a disdain for the intellect and integrity of women.

To you and me who both have no scholarship foundation to interpret the Qu'an of course it will appear to show such a thing, however Muslims know that in the entire Qu'an composed of 6236 verses all of which speaks about equality between the sexes, only 4 verses appears to contradict since the Qu'an said however:

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.


If this book was written by Muhammed we would accept the contradictions as a human who made a mistake but it wasn't it's a direct revelation from God. Hence these verses that appears to contradict are explained as I mentioned beforehand by the scholars of Qu'an; such people spend their life studying this science. From the tender age of 7 most of such scholars have memorized the Qu'an the full 6236 verse in the heart perfectly, before diving into more complex matters hence why the Islamic world have accepted such people and deemed them worthy of interpreting the Qu'an and I have not presented anything outside from what they presented.

If you wish to argue against any given interpretation either:

A)Present the argument of a scholar that argued otherwise

B)Become qualified and explain how such interpretation is false.

katydid wrote: »

And, more importantly, you think that by explaining context, you are proving that Islam doesn't discriminate against women, while what you have actually done is confirmed my initial point. You provided me with examples of discrimination, which you "explained" from your viewpoint of a flawed understanding of women.

#1)Nothing I have given was my own viewpoint or explanation. What I have presented was the scholars of Islam explanation and for you to deem their explanation flawed you must be ready to say and mention why & just like you visit a Doctor and trust his judgement regarding your illness because such person is qualified to do so; we Muslims trusts the scholars of Islam in their explanation because they are qualified to do so.

#2) I told you beforehand that you cannot explain the Qur'an according to your emotions, ideas and need absolutely not. There are set rules and areas one must master before interpreting the Qur'an


The mufasireen (exegetes) listed 15 fields that must be mastered before one can authoritatively interpret the Quran in short they are:

QUOTE wrote: »

#1)Classical Arabic: Is how one learns the meaning of each word. Mujahid (rah) said, “It is not permissible for one who holds faith in Allah and the Day of Judgment to speak on the Quran without learning classical Arabic.” In this respect, it should be known that classical Arabic must be mastered in its entirety because one word may have various meanings; a person may only know two or three of them whereas the meaning of that word in the Quran may be altogether different.

#2)Arabic Philology: Is important because any change in the diacritical marks affects the meaning, and understanding the diacritical marks depends on the science of Arabic philology.

#3)Arabic morphology: is important because changes in the configuration of verb and noun forms change the meaning. Ibn Faris said, “A person who misses out on Arabic morphology has missed out on a lot.”

#4)Al-Ishtiqaaq: should be learned because sometimes one word derives from two root words, the meaning of each root word being different. This is the science of etymology which explains the reciprocal relation and radical composition between the root and derived word. For example, masih derives from the root word masah which means “to feel something and to touch something with a wet hand,” but also derives from the root word masaahat which means “to measure.”

#5)Ilm-ul-Ma’ani: is the science by which one figures the syntax through the meaning of a sentence.

#6)Ilm-ul-Bayaan: is the science by which one learns the similes, metaphors, metonymies, zuhoor (evident meanings) and khafa (hidden meanings) of the Arabic language.

#7)Ilm-ul-Badi’: The science by which one learns to interpret sentences which reveal the beauty and eloquence of the spoken and written word. The above mentioned three sciences are categorized as Ilm-ul-Balagha (science of rhetoric). It is one of the most important sciences to a mufassir because he is able to reveal the miraculous nature of the Quran through these three sciences.

#8)Ilm-ul-Qira'at: Dialecticisms of the different readings of the Quran. This science is important because one qira'at (reading) of the Quran may differ in meaning from another, and one learns to favor one reading over another based on the difference in the meanings.

#9)Ilm-ul-Aqaa’id: is important because we cannot attribute the literal meaning of some ayaat to Allah. In this case, one will be required to interpret the ayah as in ‘the hand of Allah is over their hand’.

#10)Usul-ul-Fiqh: are the principles of Islamic Jurisprudence. It is important to master this field so one understands the methodology of legal derivation and interpretation.

#11)Asbaab-ul-Nuzul: is the field by which one learns the circumstances in which an ayah is revealed. It is important because the meaning of the ayah is more clearly understood once the circumstances in which it was revealed are known. Sometimes, the meaning of an ayah is wholly dependent on its historical background.

#12)Ilm-ul-Naskh: is knowledge of the abrogated ayaat. This field is important because abrogated rulings must be separated from the applied rulings.

#13)Fiqh: Jurisprudence. This field is important because one cannot gain an overview of any issue until he has understood its particulars.

#14)Ilm-ul-Hadith: is knowledge of the ahadith which explain mujmal (general) ayaat.

#15)Ilm Laduuni: Last but not least is the endowed knowledge which Allah grants to his closest servants. They are the servants indicated in the hadith: “Allah Y will grant one who acts upon whatever he knows from a knowledge he never knew.”

The explanation I presented to you is the explanation of scholars who have mastered these field and are not my own explanation. No one can provide a different explanation to what I have given and even if they did it would not be accepted from them unless they proved they are qualified to do so.

The Qur'an is not like the Bible where anyone can interpret the text as freely as he can in a way that will suit his purpose and desire. If a person were to do this with the Qur'an then he's from the khawarij.

Hence the explanation I gave is not from my own point of view. It's an actual interpretation of what's given, you are welcome to accept it, but if you reject it be ready to tell us why.

katydid

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

For you to ask questions regarding the Quanic verses yet blanatly refuse the explanation scholars of Islam and Qur'an who are masters of this science have gave without pointing out their mistake is pure and utter arrogance and ignorance.

To us this is a book of God and god can never discriminate between people due to their gender adding to the fact that only 4 verses out of 6236 verses appear to do such a thing Therefore special attention need to be given to them

Read what I have said again:


To you and me who both have no scholarship foundation to interpret the Qu'an of course it will appear to show such a thing, however Muslims know that in the entire Qu'an composed of 6236 verses all of which speaks about equality between the sexes, only 4 verses appears to contradict since the Qu'an said however:

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.


If this book was written by Muhammed we would accept the contradictions as a human who made a mistake but it wasn't it's a direct revelation from God. Hence these verses that appears to contradict are explained as I mentioned beforehand by the scholars of Qu'an; such people spend their life studying this science. From the tender age of 7 most of such scholars have memorized the Qu'an the full 6236 verse in the heart perfectly, before diving into more complex matters hence why the Islamic world have accepted such people and deemed them worthy of interpreting the Qu'an and I have not presented anything outside from what they presented.

If you wish to argue against any given interpretation either:

A)Present the argument of a scholar that argued otherwise

B)Become qualified and explain how such interpretation is false.




#1)Nothing I have given was my own viewpoint or explanation. What I have presented was the scholars of Islam explanation and for you to deem their explanation flawed you must be ready to say and mention why & just like you visit a Doctor and trust his judgement regarding your illness because such person is qualified to do so; we Muslims trusts the scholars of Islam in their explanation because they are qualified to do so.

#2) I told you beforehand that you cannot explain the Qur'an according to your emotions, ideas and need absolutely not. There are set rules and areas one must master before interpreting the Qur'an


The mufasireen (exegetes) listed 15 fields that must be mastered before one can authoritatively interpret the Quran in short they are:



The explanation I presented to you is the explanation of scholars who have mastered these field and are not my own explanation. No one can provide a different explanation to what I have given and even if they did it would not be accepted from them unless they proved they are qualified to do so.

The Qur'an is not like the Bible where anyone can interpret the text as freely as he can in a way that will suit his purpose and desire. If a person were to do this with the Qur'an then he's from the khawarij.

Hence the explanation I gave is not from my own point of view. It's an actual interpretation of what's given, you are welcome to accept it, but if you reject it be ready to tell us why.

This is getting ridiculous now, you're making no attempt to take on board what I've said. Let me try one more time, and, unlike you, keep it short and sweet - it doesn't matter what "explanations" you or any Islamic scholars offer, the FACT is that Islam contains these examples of discrimination against women and, if you claim that the Qur'an is the word of God and can't be changed in any way, Islam discriminates against women. It doesn't matter if there are a thousand quotes that say they are equal, if there is even ONE quote that shows discrimination, there is discrimination.

If you can't understand that simple logical fact, there's little hope for you.

Tom Dunne

Ok, I think this thread has run it's course as we seem to be going around in circles.

I think it raises another issue, one which we have encountered many times before on this forum - that of quoting large walls of text. It's simply not conducive to proper debate and something I think we as a community will have to look at and make a decision upon at some stage, perhaps after the Christmas period.