Does personal responsibility for one's situation exist in Ireland?

Kermit.de.frog

The government this, the government that....look at what the government did, what they are doing and why they shouldn't do it.


These are the arguments I hear literally every day from friends and all sorts. A lot of them have mortgages and are now in trouble, some are on the dole and have lost some income.

I do wonder who frog marched the mortgage holders in to a bank to take out a loan they could not afford and who has these people dependent on the dole when you look at their lives in totality.

It just makes me think does anyone (other than the government) take any personal responsibility for the situation they are in in their own lives? To paraphrase the Nyberg report on the crash - "Never mind the government, the Irish people went mad".

Unpopular to say but I believe the situation the country is in is more (note I do not say government and regulators did not screw up) down to collective personal wrecklessness and fecklessness than anything a government has done.

I guess people need scapegoats to divert from their own failings. I don't think this is a distinctly Irish mentality but I do think it comes across stronger in this country that it is always other peoples (preferably powerful and wealthier) fault. I guess begrudgery also feeds in to this.

What is your thesis on this assumption?

jank

I have said it before and I'll say it again. We are not a serious people. Everything is a crisis and everything is someone else's fault. Like children in a playground. I thought the last crash would be the time to grow up but it seems not. Populism rules. Tbh most people have no idea how the world works.

The Strawman Argument

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It just makes me think does anyone (other than the government) take any personal responsibility for the situation they are in in their own lives?

...the government do accept personal responsibility for their sh*t?

Kermit.de.frog

The Strawman Argument wrote: »

...the government do accept personal responsibility for their sh*t?

Not a fan by any means of the previous crowd but the previous government have publically accepted and apologised for their failings and took their punishment at the polls. That is a simple fact. And it occurs to me it is a damn sight more responsibility than a lot of people in this country want to take.

Just my observation.

Merkin

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. The corrupt feckers in the gubberment let it be known that it was a free for all and the Irish public did what we do best and followed unquestioningly like legally blind sheep because that's what we always do.

KERSPLAT!

Merkin wrote: »

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. The corrupt feckers in the gubberment let it be known that it was a free for all and the Irish public did what we do best and followed unquestioningly like legally blind sheep because that's what we always do.

Yup, everyone had a part to play, from the government to regulators to the people themselves.

I suppose the worst thing is, we the people probably won't change and neither will the government. We may be on the up, and that's great, but the level of cronyism and corruption is mind blowing. Come back in twenty years or so and it'll be the same craic again

BetterThanThou

No one will ever think the government is good, in any country. The amount of people I've heard that are lifetime dole claimers complaining about the government messing up the country isn't even funny at this point. They're a huge part of the problem for not getting off their asses and looking for a job. The amount of people who I've heard say "There's no jobs out there." is insane, especially when I know the people saying this have never even sent in one CV. And don't even get me started on the insane amount of spending people used to do, especially when it came to getting loans, hell, even people on the welfare were getting loans from loan sharks. The government is grand, they can only do so much with what they're given, they can't get the country out of debt without raising taxes a little.

Kermit.de.frog

People on the dole were getting 220 per week at one stage - and yet they claim they never benefited. Public servants were walking in and out of government buildings every couple of years with 10% + pay increases and yet they claim they did not benefit. Workers in the private sector had very low taxes and yet they claim they did not benefit.

All bull****. To varying degrees everyone got a slice of the pie. And now it is payback time and they moan about water charges when every other country pays far more for than they are being asked. Where are all the protesters against such high variable rate mortgage interest!? Oh yeah they are at work digging the country out of the mess. Seems only people on the dole have the time to go out and protest instead of using that time to find a job.

I don't care if someone is a street sweeper or bin collector. They earn a hell of a lot more respect from me than someone sitting on their ass moaning about the government.

Adamantium

It's particularly frustrating/maddening when you have issues (health for example) that you're doing everything to control and have to listen to others banging on/others refusing to fix their own problems that are fixable with some basic ****ing discipline, they'll have all the answers to everybody elses problems (government included) except their own.

There is a good saying "If you divided all the money equally among all the peoples of the world, it'd quickly end up back in the pockets of the original people everytime"

EoinHef

Weird i keep seeing something on AH as well....posts saying people should have not taken about mortgages they cant afford!!

Considering most people COULD afford these mortgage when they got them i find it a very strange thing to say,do you not agree OP? It was only later when s**t really hit the fan people couldnt afford to pay,so very few took a mortgages out with the knowledge they could not pay them down the line.

Of course if everyone had known things were gonna go the way they did they wouldnt have taken those mortgages,and i reckon the banks would not have lent them either.

Also the government at the time....soft landings in the property market and all that. The leader of our country at the time said anybody who didnt think soft landing was gonna happen in property market should lock themselves in a dark room and shoot themselves. FG were not in power at the time ill grant you that,but where was the opposition to what FF were doing?? Answer is there wasnt any credible political opposition at the time,i have no doubt our political classes have failed us over the last 10-20 years.

dissed doc

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I guess people need scapegoats to divert from their own failings. I don't think this is a distinctly Irish mentality but I do think it comes across stronger in this country that it is always other peoples (preferably powerful and wealthier) fault. I guess begrudgery also feeds in to this.

What is your thesis on this assumption?

I agree with this, it is not a distinctly Irish thing, it is also very much in the UK. The level of socialist expectation is huge (government should pay for my house, car, unemployment, holidays, everything etc ., ), compared to the alledgedly socialist "europeans".

It probably comes from being isolated and small, so similar attitudes exist along the top of the europe's distant edge, like Norway, Sweden, etc., . It is a completely different story on the continent, because I think that goverments, borders, etc., have changed so much that there is no "all powerful government" expectation.

Kermit.de.frog

You see the problem here is that there are people calling for debt forgiveness. What that means is that people like me and the vast majority would be asked to pay for the mortgage of someone who bought at the height of the boom.

In effect I would be asked to pay for my neighbours mortgage. So when I drive to work early in the morning I am doing so not only to keep a roof over my head but also for my feckless neighbour who now need not worry about his/her mortgage.

That is not right. That is not fair. That should not happen.

The Backwards Man

A spaceman walks into any town in Ireland in the early 00s

'My, you all have such wonderful houses ', he says to a local, 'could you tell me what the main industry is around here?'

'We build houses', says the local triumphantly.

The spaceman is bewildered.

timetogo

Personal responsibility does exist in Ireland. Not everybody blames the government for everything.

Blaming somebody else is an easy choice. If you do that there's nothing you can do to make you lot in life better. If you don't you've got some work to do. The first option is the one a lot of people go for.

Like other posters here I know some people who rant and rave about the government for everything. Generally the people not ranting and raving are those that are too busy trying to get ahead.

Admittedly the government do seem to cock up a hell of a lot.

It's kind of depressing though. The same people who gave out about Fianna Fail are now giving out about FG and I guarantee they'll be ranting about the next one.

EoinHef

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You see the problem here is that there are people calling for debt forgiveness. What that means is that people like me and the vast majority would be asked to pay for the mortgage of someone who bought at the height of the boom.

In effect I would be asked to pay for my neighbours mortgage. So when I drive to work early in the morning I am doing so not only to keep a roof over my head but also for my feckless neighbour who now need not worry about his/her mortgage.

That is not right. That is not fair. That should not happen.

Why would you pay your neighbors mortgage?

You might pay more taxes because the government(s) nationalised the banks (after they went bust)thus putting the banks bad loans on the books of the country. Whos fault is that? Not your neighbors imo

Grayson

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

People on the dole were getting 220 per week at one stage - and yet they claim they never benefited. Public servants were walking in and out of government buildings every couple of years with 10% + pay increases and yet they claim they did not benefit. Workers in the private sector had very low taxes and yet they claim they did not benefit.

All bull****. To varying degrees everyone got a slice of the pie.

people on low income who were priced out by rising house prices and rising prices didn't really benefit. Minimum wage went up alright but so did everything else.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Not a fan by any means of the previous crowd but the previous government have publically accepted and apologised for their failings

1) when did that happen? I heard Bertie said his biggest regret was not getting a stadium built.

2) they said sorry. Guess that's all ok.

lazybones32

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The government this, the government that....look at what the government did, what they are doing and why they shouldn't do it.


These are the arguments I hear literally every day from friends and all sorts. A lot of them have mortgages and are now in trouble, some are on the dole and have lost some income.

I do wonder who frog marched the mortgage holders in to a bank to take out a loan they could not afford and who has these people dependent on the dole when you look at their lives in totality.

It just makes me think does anyone (other than the government) take any personal responsibility for the situation they are in in their own lives? To paraphrase the Nyberg report on the crash - "Never mind the government, the Irish people went mad".

Unpopular to say but I believe the situation the country is in is more (note I do not say government and regulators did not screw up) down to collective personal wrecklessness and fecklessness than anything a government has done.

I guess people need scapegoats to divert from their own failings. I don't think this is a distinctly Irish mentality but I do think it comes across stronger in this country that it is always other peoples (preferably powerful and wealthier) fault. I guess begrudgery also feeds in to this.

What is your thesis on this assumption?

Yes, people took mortgages they shouldn't have but the banks were only too willing to give them money and a lot of the time were pressuring people to take mortgages. I went looking for a small loan during the boom and I had to fight with the f**kers 'cos they wanted to give me substantially more.

The previous and current Govt. are guilty to a large degree in all this too and your attempt to focus solely on personal fault sounds a bit blue-shirty and not considered.

"Heavy is the head that wears the Crown" - Prop Joe

mariaalice

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You see the problem here is that there are people calling for debt forgiveness. What that means is that people like me and the vast majority would be asked to pay for the mortgage of someone who bought at the height of the boom.

In effect I would be asked to pay for my neighbours mortgage. So when I drive to work early in the morning I am doing so not only to keep a roof over my head but also for my feckless neighbour who now need not worry about his/her mortgage.

That is not right. That is not fair. That should not happen.

There has not been any mass debt forgiveness a small but important point.

Am the only one who had never come across anyone trying to keep up with the Jones and got themselves in to debt for the sake of appearance's neither family, neighbours, or friends.

Jawgap

the simple answer to the original question is 'yes' - starting from the top down through political, civic and professional life in Ireland there is zero (or effectively zero) accountability.

Saying that every time an election rolls around we endorse the prevailing approach because our lack of accountability is only matched by our fear of, or unwillingness to, change.

Finally, we too often confuse parochialism for community - we think we've plenty of the latter when it's actually the former we're riddled with.

As for the whole mortgage thing - it's time for people to grow up - they borrowed they should pay it back. No one 'made' them borrow - it's not like people woke up one morning and saw that someone had put €300k in their bank accounts to 'rest' a while. Anyone who over-borrowed, gambled that wages and the housing market would keep rising - they lost and now it seems the rest of us (as in those who were sensible enough to live well within their means) are expected to bail them out.

If the wages and the housing market had continued upwards ever upwards would the same crowd be squealing as loudly to make a greater contribution from their speculative windfall? I somehow doubt it.

_Kaiser_

jank wrote: »

I have said it before and I'll say it again. We are not a serious people. Everything is a crisis and everything is someone else's fault. Like children in a playground. I thought the last crash would be the time to grow up but it seems not. Populism rules. Tbh most people have no idea how the world works.

Spot on TBH...

Bottom line really is that Ireland wasn't ready for "Independence" and when we did finally get it, we couldn't get rid of it again fast enough...

- First we handed it off to the Church who held the social/cultural development of the country back for decades while abusing generations of Irish kids and single mothers etc. FFS, condoms weren't even freely available here until the early 90s!

- Then when that grip finally started to loosen, we handed it off to EU in return for a few quid and some (tolled) roads, but we (along with the other smaller countries in the club) have certainly paid the price for that one in the last few years

- In between we've floated between FF and FG.. two parties that should just merge and get it over with and are just as corrupt and incompetent as each other, yet there's still a large amount of people out there who still buy in to their Civil War era nonsense and will vote for them no matter what they do based on nothing more than "it's who mammy and daddy voted for" or "they got me my planning permission"

- We run the country (from Government, to Gardai, to Civil Service to pretty much everything else) on the "it'll be grand approach", resulting in the country stumbling from one mess to another where nothing is done properly and everything costs twice as much as it should and takes twice as long. Add in the "it depends who you get" attitude and it makes this even worse

- The reason our elected officials and their mates/families/hangers-on get away with stuffing their pockets and scandal after scandal is because there's a lot of people that still admire that "cute hoor" attitude, and secretly admit to themselves that they'd do exactly the same if they had the opportunity/balls/neck

- We spend far too much time trying to either impress our neighbours or bothering ourselves with what they might be getting/getting away with that we're not. This gives those in power endless opportunities to play one side off against the other (be it employed vs unemployed, middle class vs working class, public vs private sectors etc) while the status quo trundles along

- Average Paddy and Mary doesn't like change, so anything or anyone that doesn't fit in to the status quo is shouted down or belittled - which of course is also why we continue to flip between the two incompetent main parties in this country. They also have no interest in politics or civics unless it affects or directly benefits them personally which is why we have so many one-issue unqualified gombeens collecting ridiculous salaries in the playground we call a parliament

- The late 80s/early 90s US culture that swept in to this country and promised that everything can be solved by counselling (or suing!) and that no-one is actually to blame or responsible for their choices in life was embraced wholeheartedly by much of Irish society.. now they could "legitimately" blame someone else for everything because Sally Jessy, Dr Phil and Geraldo said so! It also gave our "leaders" an out as well of course as they can now blame the EU for all the unpopular decisions.

It's why people digging themselves into massive debts with mortgages they couldn't afford was the bank's/government's/their friends fault, it's why little Johnny isn't a scumbag but just from a broken home or disadvantaged, and why the country has become a politically correct farce where you have people and groups actively looking to take offence at every opportunity

... and as you say, despite a recession that our grandchildren will still be paying for and despite another generation being forced abroad to survive, most people have learned nothing! Instead they're busy inflating another property bubble - eagerly cheered on by an incompetent government that is already thinking about what other populist nonsense might get it reelected in 2016.

Until the people of Ireland grow up and take an interest and responsibility for their OWN lives they certainly won't do so for the welfare and best interests of the country as a whole but I won't be holding my breath. Those who have the opportunity and drive will continue to get out, the rest of us who are tied by commitments will just have to endure it

Maybe the IW protests which have evolved into a larger expression of dissatisfaction with the status quo will make a difference. I really think it could be a turning point if the people see it for what it is and take note of the government's panicked reaction and increasingly desperate attempts to discredit the protestors. This is about a lot more than a few hundred quid for water, it could potentially help define where this country goes next.

am i bovvered

Jawgap wrote: »

the simple answer to the original question is 'yes' - starting from the top down through political, civic and professional life in Ireland there is zero (or effectively zero) accountability.

Saying that every time an election rolls around we endorse the prevailing approach because our lack of accountability is only matched by our fear of, or unwillingness to, change.

Finally, we too often confuse parochialism for community - we think we've plenty of the latter when it's actually the former we're riddled with.

As for the whole mortgage thing - it's time for people to grow up - they borrowed they should pay it back. No one 'made' them borrow - it's not like people woke up one morning and saw that someone had put €300k in their bank accounts to 'rest' a while. Anyone who over-borrowed, gambled that wages and the housing market would keep rising - they lost and now it seems the rest of us (as in those who were sensible enough to live well within their means) are expected to bail them out.

If the wages and the housing market had continued upwards ever upwards would the same crowd be squealing as loudly to make a greater contribution from their speculative windfall? I somehow doubt it.

Totally agree with the above, and this is speaking as someone who did gamble on the housing market. A bad decision that is my own fault and for which I have to pay the price, I certainly do not expect debt forgiveness. Like Jawgap said if it had paid off I would have paid out the correct tax and probably been feeling great about how clever I was
The only gripe with the government
I have is the change regarding the tax allowance on interest allowable on a rental property. Ever other business is allowed to write off 100% of the legitimate interest expenses (this was the case when I invested, and factored into my decision) then the gov changed that to 75%. I know of no other business where this applies, so it seems unfair.
But to answer the OP, my fault, and I am working as hard as I can to see it through and pay my debts.

Quin_Dub

As other posters have said, fundamentally we are a very immature country.

Whether it's some weird throwback to Imperialism or not is a moot point but the prevailing attitude is one of "them" vs. "us" rather then simply seeing it as "Us" as it should be.

The joy of the cute hoor and getting one over on "them" and so on is just pervasive.

The continued re-election of TD's across the country who have been repeatedly and undeniable found with their hand in the till clearly shows how we view petty corruption -

We think it's a bit cool, and quietly admire the person for their ability to pull the wool over someones eyes , all the while forgetting that it's OUR money that they are stealing...

Every problem is seen as a result of someone elses action or inaction in the first case.

Bottom line , everything that happens in your life is your responsibility - Of course , other factors are at play and Government policy can impact the environment in which you live. But the reality is that it's your own responsibility to inform yourself properly , weigh up all the risks and rewards and put in place mitigation to reduce the risk..

But - If the worst happens and you lose your job , Mortgages rates spike or whatever.. The 1st place to look is at yourself and how you should have seen it coming and protected yourself..

In Ireland, the 1st response is "Who did this to me , who can I blame?"

Until we grow up and learn to wear our successes and failures equally we are going to continue to make the same mistakes....

cletus van damme

Hi Kermit

I’ll take the time to answer your point – I’ll answer this genuinely assuming you are not on a wind-up.


But firstly Nyberg wrote a report – he is not the pope : he is not infallible. In my opinion his report was premature in a rush to get an “answer” to our woe. I also don’t accept what he said in some cases.
We had our own report here that said the bulk of the woe were caused by 150 people only.
Both are probably wrong but to say the irish people (all 4 million of them) went mad is wide of the mark.

Most people bought 1 house to live in and probably treated themselves to some cocaine or a fancy holiday or maybe that 4 X 4 (god why!!) . Not really that excessive.
In every society there will be outliners – the 3 holidays a year crowd who think a credit card is free money. They are fools.
We will always have fools.

However the monies they were splashing about were nothing in comparison to the Corporate money being splurged on mad projects in a feckless get-quick rich orgy.
Our woes as a nation has a lot more to do with that debt than personal debt arises from 4 days in new York acting like Kim large arse.

If you think those failed corporate loans have had no impact on your friends difficulty then you are as mad as a bag of cats.

You are responsible for your mortgage.
This is true and I agree with you however people did take out loans based on their circumstances. I don’t think anybody foresaw the **** storm we are in now. While I knew things wouldn’t be great forever I never envisaged the USC gouging my salary in the manner that it does.

For that lack foresight should they have a millstone around there neck for the next 30 year?
Existing to pay off a loan . A waste of a life (IMO).
Why not try and reach a compromise so these people can see light at the end of the tunnel .

If you talk about personal responsibility – why not talk of the professional responsibly of all the “professional” a people encounters when buying a house.

- The Bank
o A person buying a house is examined and the loan is stress tested
- The Property Valuer
o The bank had a guy value the house and he/she approve it being reasonably priced
- Lawyer
o Whatever they do….it seemed money for a few forms to me

And at a higher level than individual transactions but involved nonetheless

- The Financial Regulator
o Enough about him
- The Secretary of the Dep of finance and his minions and the central bank
o They failed to stand up to the government

There may be more but I can’t think of them from the top of my head. They all gave the deal the thumbs-up.

It’s a bit much too expect a guy who is a garda to know the ins and outs of the property market so that’s why we employ professionals (or the state employs)
Much like when you get your car fixed you approach a mechanic. If he messes up you can sue.

People are in the ****ter because not only did salaries fall (or cease to exist) but taxation rose by a huge amount.
Nobody foresaw that.

Plus on a corporate level we see company getting credit deals from banks . We see banks getting bailed-out but everybody just ****s on the regular guy

Worse still – it’s the regular guy that pays for the bailouts .

As for the government – they had a duty of care to ensure the property market (well the economy really) stayed in good nick.
They failed utterly . There was failings on the part of the regulator and dept of finance.

But also what isn’t mentioned a huge amount and in my view amounts to corruption is that a huge number of people in leinster house were neck deep in property speculation and needed the boom to continue.
This corrupted policy. I have no doubt about it.
And I accuse all parties of being in on this , bar Joe “all property is theft” Higgins.
FG’s policies were even more “party-on” that FF at the time.3

Then they guaranteed the banks – which FG approved of too (lest we forget) – I’m not going into that cos we all know .
Joe public didn’t guarantee the banks . In fact since joe public probably had less than 100k in the bank anyway his cash was secured by way of normal government guarantee - bank guarantee or not.

The bank guarantee was soley to save the banks, corporates and the small number who have more than 100k on deposit. And the bond holders. I’ll skip that point cos it’s been done to death but I think we’ll all agree ( I hope) that the bank guarantee has contributed significantly to the woe felt by people – the knock on effect is making it more difficult to pay that mortgage.

Yes the people are in a situation that they are responsible for but they are far from the only ones.
Yet they are the only ones carrying the can.

Did you foresee all this Kermit ? Or are you being smug using hindsight because you aren’t trapped in a cycle of taxes and debt.

As we all know – hindsight is foresight for the gob****e.

For disclosure I’m not in a bad place financially – I get bad months and ok months depending on bills (usually GP visits for the kids cripple me ) . I’ve never missed a mortgage payment in 13 years but I know plenty through no fault of their own in a really bad place.

cletus van damme

sorry for the shonky font - im at work and a rant that long needed to be written in email and copied in .
alas I'm not paid to rant on the net.

ThisRegard

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The government this, the government that....look at what the government did, what they are doing and why they shouldn't do it.


These are the arguments I hear literally every day from friends and all sorts. A lot of them have mortgages and are now in trouble, some are on the dole and have lost some income.

All of who are Liveline fodder.

Turtyturd

You must pay a hell of a lot of taxes OP considering every second thread you start is complaining about the stuff your taxes specifically pay for.

Also too much generalisation in the OP to take it seriously.

Quin_Dub

cletus van damme wrote: »

Existing to pay off a loan . A waste of a life (IMO).[
Why not try and reach a compromise so these people can see light at the end of the tunnel .

The only reasonable compromise here is for them to hand back the keys and for the debt to be written off. So they can move on and start again.

That way , the bank takes a hit and rightly so , but also the home-owner takes their hit as well , equally rightly so.

Both players in the silly mortgage game should be penalised - But only those players , not everybody else.

Any scenario where there is a government mandated blanket right down of mortgage debt where the buyer gets to keep the house is unacceptable.

cletus van damme

Quin_Dub wrote: »

The only reasonable compromise here is for them to hand back the keys and for the debt to be written off. So they can move on and start again.

That way , the bank takes a hit and rightly so , but also the home-owner takes their hit as well , equally rightly so.

Both players in the silly mortgage game should be penalised - But only those players , not everybody else.

Any scenario where there is a government mandated blanket right down of mortgage debt where the buyer gets to keep the house is unacceptable.

toatlly agree and that is the way it is in most countries.

but people like kermit won't get to feel smug and get a horn watching others suffer. That just won't do.:pac:

homerjay2005

EoinHef wrote: »

Considering most people COULD afford these mortgage when they got them i find it a very strange thing to say,do you not agree OP?.

the vast majority if people COULD NOT afford the mortgages they got. you had people getting 400k mortgages and net income of no more than 60k a year.

Jawgap

cletus van damme wrote: »

.........

People took out loans on the basis of unsustainable assumptions.

I don't have an unmanageable mortgage because I foresaw any of what happened - I have a manageable financial situation because I thought about 'what-ifs' - what if I lost my job, fell ill, got transferred etc.

In other words I was prudent and the abiding feeling I have about this country at the moment is those that were prudent are now being punished (we're certainly not being rewarded!) for their prudence - those that weren't are not suffering for their imprudence.

Shenshen

Quin_Dub wrote: »

The only reasonable compromise here is for them to hand back the keys and for the debt to be written off. So they can move on and start again.

That way , the bank takes a hit and rightly so , but also the home-owner takes their hit as well , equally rightly so.

Both players in the silly mortgage game should be penalised - But only those players , not everybody else.

Any scenario where there is a government mandated blanket right down of mortgage debt where the buyer gets to keep the house is unacceptable.

I love that notion "the bank takes a hit".

Banks don't take hits. They merely pass them down the line to all their other customers, same as any other business.
So someone hands their keys back to the bank. Let's assume their outstanding mortgage is 300k, and let's be generous and assume the bank can sell the place for 200k.
That will leave the bank 100k out of pocket. A 100k loss that they will have to make up somehow, by getting the money out of the rest of their customers who are still able to pay them.

So it will be up to the people who are acting responsibly and are doing their best to pay off their loans to finance the ones who don't.

I fail to see any fairness in this.

Irish Steve

Quin_Dub wrote: »

As other posters have said, fundamentally we are a very immature country.

Whether it's some weird throwback to Imperialism or not is a moot point but the prevailing attitude is one of "them" vs. "us" rather then simply seeing it as "Us" as it should be.

The joy of the cute hoor and getting one over on "them" and so on is just pervasive.

The continued re-election of TD's across the country who have been repeatedly and undeniable found with their hand in the till clearly shows how we view petty corruption -

We think it's a bit cool, and quietly admire the person for their ability to pull the wool over someones eyes , all the while forgetting that it's OUR money that they are stealing...

Every problem is seen as a result of someone elses action or inaction in the first case.

Bottom line , everything that happens in your life is your responsibility - Of course , other factors are at play and Government policy can impact the environment in which you live. But the reality is that it's your own responsibility to inform yourself properly , weigh up all the risks and rewards and put in place mitigation to reduce the risk..

But - If the worst happens and you lose your job , Mortgages rates spike or whatever.. The 1st place to look is at yourself and how you should have seen it coming and protected yourself..

In Ireland, the 1st response is "Who did this to me , who can I blame?"

Until we grow up and learn to wear our successes and failures equally we are going to continue to make the same mistakes....

Some valid and true points, but there are a number of wider issues, and some of then are tricky.

In most big decisions that are complex, the traditional advice was to rely on the relevant professional group for their (often expensive) input and direction, and to evaluate their response as part of the overall decision making process.

But, it's been made very clear over the last while that some of that professional advice wasn't worth the paper it was printed on.

I could go into a lot of detail about some of the things that have happened to me as a direct result of relying on solicitors, accountants, architects, bankers and other state and semi state professionals that were supposed to be reliable, but I won't, it depresses me, and at this stage and distance, I can't change what happened maybe 25 years ago, so there's not much point in even voicing them, even though the results have done massive financial, psychological and emotional damage to me and my family.

In theory, I should be able to do something about it, but fighting professional bodies through the legal system is incredibly time consuming and frighteningly expensive, and I don't have the emotional reserves or the money to be able to do anything at this stage of my life, and the other factor is that life is too short.

It probably means that I won't be able to leave anything other than bills to my children, which was not the way it was supposed to be, and I dread our retirement. but changing it is no longer a realistic option, and I've worked long and hard over the years, so it wasn't for the lack of trying.

So, I will instead mention things like Priory Hall, I haven't seen any professional bodies having to invoke their liability insurance to compensate people who were mistreated by members of their professions, and that covers solicitors and architects, builders and (completely untouchable) local authorities, all of whom have been culpable and negligent in the performance of their duties, and the result was a death trap that had to be closed down, with a fire engine on permanent standby while the residents moved out, as the complex was so dangerous. NO ONE has been put through the courts over that, or made to pay for their negligence and incompetence, are the problems that the owners face their problems, or are the problems the problems of professional bodies that can't be trusted to do the job they are there to do, and often are paid incredibly well for their services?

The Golden Circle is alive and well, and even after a number of years of the worst recession in living memory, it's thriving, and working well for the select few at the top of the tree that are the members of that club.

At the very top of the tree, we have the organisations that run the state, the Catholic church, and the political system, and they determine the tone and attitude that's seen as "the norm", and what a wonderful example of upright and outstanding citizenry we have there! (NOT).

Corruption, fraud, cronyism, nepotism, suppressed child abuse, sexual abuse, and just about every other possible negative, and despite all of these issues, at the political level, the same cronies keep getting re elected into the system by the people they represent, because (as has been mentioned) there is a culture that is only too happy that the top is corrupt, as it excuses and minimises that crime, and makes it legitimate for everyone else to do what the leaders do, and because those same people are very good at "stroking" the system to get results at a local level for the people they represent, which is seen as being more important than their honesty. In other organisations, like the church and state services, the failures get moved or reassigned to a new role, there's no such thing as proper discipline or consequences for failure, we've seen it across both bodies, and it's not a pretty sight.

Some of it is a throwback to the colonial rule times, "Feck ye and your rules" became engrained and implicit in the culture, and the fact that Ireland has been responsible for it's own destiny for nearly 100 years hasn't changed or eliminated that attitude, it's still very much part of the political rule book, and goes right to the top, as was seen when CJ was given the money from Ben Dunne. Then of course, don't forget the old way, where the priest was god incarnate at the local level, so instant obedience to his every word was mandatory, and the rules didn't apply to him. That concept was brainwashed into generations, it then applied to other areas of life, and it's only now in the last couple of generations that the media, the internet and the duplicity and deception of the leaders in so many different areas has become clear, and people are starting to change their attitude towards the old ways.

Only in Ireland would we hear the phrase "It was resting in my account", and even this week, there are more waves about the number of people involved with illegal off shore activities, and there's no smoke without fire from that direction.

Another area that is not helpful is the Catholic Confessional concept. Doesn't matter what you've done, go and confess it, and as long as you do whatever is deemed "appropriate" by the priest, your sins are forgiven. That is such a distortion of the biblical concept of repentance, it's laughable, but it underlies so much of what has gone wrong with the moral structure of life, sin has consequences here on earth too, some of them can be very long term, and the absence of any real moral compass from the church has been another aspect of the disasters that have affected Ireland in the last few generations.

So while personal responsibility is a nice catch all phrase, there are still a number of areas where personal responsibility is both misleading and inappropriate, given the way that Irish Society and culture operates.

Depressing, VERY depressing, as it's not likely to change any time soon.

Quin_Dub

Shenshen wrote: »

I love that notion "the bank takes a hit".

Banks don't take hits. They merely pass them down the line to all their other customers, same as any other business.
So someone hands their keys back to the bank. Let's assume their outstanding mortgage is 300k, and let's be generous and assume the bank can sell the place for 200k.
That will leave the bank 100k out of pocket. A 100k loss that they will have to make up somehow, by getting the money out of the rest of their customers who are still able to pay them.

So it will be up to the people who are acting responsibly and are doing their best to pay off their loans to finance the ones who don't.

I fail to see any fairness in this.

I see your point , companies will always try to claw back a loss somewhere or somehow . I don't think that there is a way to remove that activity completely.

At least in the scenario where the bank takes an up front hit on the specific loan , they'll have to account for it on their books and their attempts to recover the costs elsewhere may end up costing them business - e.g. if they increase general transaction charges then they might lose customers etc.

It'll never be perfect , but a situation where only one side takes the hit is fundamentally unfair. Both sides need to take ownership and have some impact.

I would also fully support a situation whereby those that do hand back the keys would be excluded from getting a mortgage for a period of time - 5 years perhaps. They shouldn't be able to walk away totally scot-free.

I don't advocate that this should be done to be honest - I think that those in trouble with their mortgage should engage with the banks and work something out between them on a an individual basis .

I'm just saying that the ONLY proposal around debt forgiveness that I would even countenance supporting would have to involve all parties taking responsibility.

Tiger Mcilroy

Jawgap wrote: »

People took out loans on the basis of unsustainable assumptions.

I don't have an unmanageable mortgage because I foresaw any of what happened - I have a manageable financial situation because I thought about 'what-ifs' - what if I lost my job, fell ill, got transferred etc.

In other words I was prudent and the abiding feeling I have about this country at the moment is those that were prudent are now being punished (we're certainly not being rewarded!) for their prudence - those that weren't are not suffering for their imprudence.

This is pure nonsense, people took loans based on what the banks told they could afford, using your logic nobody would buy anything ever.

"i cant take that 25 year mortgage because i may lose my job in 24 years and id be screwed"....at least your prudence gives you a nice high pulpit to preach from i suppose.

Quin_Dub

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

This is pure nonsense, people took loans based on what the banks told they could afford, using your logic nobody would buy anything ever.

"i cant take that 25 year mortgage because i may lose my job in 24 years and id be screwed"....at least your prudence gives you a nice high pulpit to preach from i suppose.

People were stupid and gullible (not everyone , but enough of them)

Banks of course were doing their bit - But people were signing up to Mortgages based on future earnings , as yet un-earned bonuses etc. etc.

The Banks were telling everyone that they were great and that in 5 years time they'd have that promotion/pay-rise and the repayments would be easy etc. etc.

Yes - The banks were very wrong , but equally anybody that believed that crap and signed on the dotted line without doing their own due diligence needs to accept their role in their own current situation.

I'm not talking about people who lost their jobs - No amount of fiscal prudence fully protects from that... I'm talking about the multitude of people who are still employed , but who can't afford their mortgage due to increased interest rates or due to a change in circumstances (having kids mainly).. That's a lack of planning , plain and simple.

Shenshen

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

This is pure nonsense, people took loans based on what the banks told they could afford, using your logic nobody would buy anything ever.

"i cant take that 25 year mortgage because i may lose my job in 24 years and id be screwed"....at least your prudence gives you a nice high pulpit to preach from i suppose.

Well, how about a simple risk assessment?
My partner and I did that before taking out our mortgage - we just calculated how bad things would have to get before we would not be able to meet the repayments (worked out as one of us losing their job and the other getting their pay reduced by half - in which case our savings would allow us to tide ourselves over for about 6 months). Now fortunately, all that happened so far was that my partner was out of work for about a year, and we were managing as expected.

Why is it so unreasonable to plan ahead a little bit, and see if and how you would cope with financial setbacks?

Tiger Mcilroy

Quin_Dub wrote: »

People were stupid and gullible (not everyone , but enough of them)

Banks of course were doing their bit - But people were signing up to Mortgages based on future earnings , as yet un-earned bonuses etc. etc.

The Banks were telling everyone that they were great and that in 5 years time they'd have that promotion/pay-rise and the repayments would be easy etc. etc.

Yes - The banks were very wrong , but equally anybody that believed that crap and signed on the dotted line without doing their own due diligence needs to accept their role in their own current situation.

I'm not talking about people who lost their jobs - No amount of fiscal prudence fully protects from that... I'm talking about the multitude of people who are still employed , but who can't afford their mortgage due to increased interest rates or due to a change in circumstances (having kids mainly).. That's a lack of planning , plain and simple.

So if somebody lost their job its ok but if somebodys circumstances change for whatever reason were stupid?..im not defending anybody and we all should pay our bills but posters claiming they had the first clue at the time and were one of the minority that saw it all coming is pure waffle.

Tiger Mcilroy

Shenshen wrote: »

Well, how about a simple risk assessment?
My partner and I did that before taking out our mortgage - we just calculated how bad things would have to get before we would not be able to meet the repayments (worked out as one of us losing their job and the other getting their pay reduced by half - in which case our savings would allow us to tide ourselves over for about 6 months). Now fortunately, all that happened so far was that my partner was out of work for about a year, and we were managing as expected.

Why is it so unreasonable to plan ahead a little bit, and see if and how you would cope with financial setbacks?

Im not saying its unreasonable at all to plan ahead, its just boring listening the hindsight brigade claiming that large portions of society are stupid when they were somehow prudent when they most likely were not in a position to buy.

geeksauce

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

This is pure nonsense, people took loans based on what the banks told they could afford, using your logic nobody would buy anything ever.

"i cant take that 25 year mortgage because i may lose my job in 24 years and id be screwed"....at least your prudence gives you a nice high pulpit to preach from i suppose.

No it's not pure nonsense, taking out a mortgage based on what the banks told them could afford is pure nonsense and completely idiotic. If you wanted to buy a car tomorrow and applied for a loan from the bank for €10,000 as this is the cost of the car you saw and decided you wanted, and then the bank turn around and say to you but sure here is €300k go buy a Ferrari or something nicer so you can show your friends how cool you are.

Are you saying you would take the €300k and buy the Ferrari just because the banks offered you the money?

People knew what they could afford and should have borrowed an amount that reflected what they could afford, they didn't do this however, they instead decided to splash the cash and show off to all their friends and family.....ooooh look at our 3,000 sq ft house with the marble tiles throughout aren't we bloody brilliant blah blah blah......

Basically what happened was there were people who's income was say €30,000 per annum from 1995 - 2005 and then in 2006 during the boom their income jumped to €80,000 so they toddled off to the bank and took out a mortgage based on their income of €80,000 ignoring the fact that they were in the middle of a boom and ignoring the fact that this wasn't their realistic income.

Jawgap

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

This is pure nonsense, people took loans based on what the banks told they could afford, using your logic nobody would buy anything ever.

"i cant take that 25 year mortgage because i may lose my job in 24 years and id be screwed"....at least your prudence gives you a nice high pulpit to preach from i suppose.

Not really - assumptions should be realistic. People were making loan applications based on what they could afford alright, without leaving any cushion for change and assuming wages and property values would continue to expand for the foreseeable future, if not indefinitely.

Also, how many people 'massaged' their incomes on application forms for mortgages, or promised to rent out rooms etc IIRC even at the height of the madness the process of applying for a mortgage was still pretty involved so people were making very conscious choices about what to put down on forms and what information to provide based on the age old Irish tradition of 'sure-it'll-be-grand.'

And inflated mortgages I can kind of understand given our historic obsession with owning our houses - but what of the eye-watering levels of unsecured household debt a lot of people incurred (coupled with negligible savings rates) - I suppose people are not responsible for their decisions to whip out the credit card and not set aside a proportion of their salary each month?

It's difficult to be screwed if you plan properly - old fashioned ideas.........like having six months salary saved to buffer you against things like losing your job 24 years into a 25 year mortgage.

Tiger Mcilroy

geeksauce wrote: »

No it's not pure nonsense, taking out a mortgage based on what the banks told them could afford is pure nonsense and completely idiotic. If you wanted to buy a car tomorrow and applied for a loan from the bank for €10,000 as this is the cost of the car you saw and decided you wanted, and then the bank turn around and say to you but sure here is €300k go buy a Ferrari or something nicer so you can show your friends how cool you are.

Are you saying you would take the €300k and buy the Ferrari just because the banks offered you the money?

People knew what they could afford and should have borrowed an amount that reflected what they could afford, they didn't do this however, they instead decided to splash the cash and show off to all their friends and family.....ooooh look at our 3,000 sq ft house with the marble tiles throughout aren't we bloody brilliant blah blah blah......

Basically what happened was there were people who's income was say €30,000 per annum from 1995 - 2005 and then in 2006 during the boom their income jumped to €80,000 so they toddled off to the bank and took out a mortgage based on their income of €80,000 ignoring the fact that they were in the middle of a boom and ignoring the fact that this wasn't their realistic income.

All ifs and or buts im afraid, not everybody behaved like this but sure rant away.

whisky_galore

Think the 'Shur it'll be grand' attitude, self-interest and our sneaking admiration for 'cute hoorism' are our main faults as a nation.

We tend to dismiss potential problems that are coming down the line until it's too bloody late, then the inevitable circle of blame starts up in the aftermath.

geeksauce

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

All ifs and or buts im afraid, not everybody behaved like this but sure rant away.

Good rebuttle there, no ifs or buts about it, people were stupid about the money they borrowed, now that they are realising how stupid they were they are choosing to blame everyone else but themselves for their stupid decisions.

"Ah sure it's the governments fault, bloody government grrrr :mad::mad::mad::mad:"...."sure how could anyone predict our incomes wouldn't keep rising and would in fact fall"....."no way could anyone see this coming"..."the banks have a lot to answer for, making me borrow so much money, even though I really didn't want to, bloody banks grrrrrrr :mad::mad::mad::mad:"

El_Duderino 09

EoinHef wrote: »

Weird i keep seeing something on AH as well....posts saying people should have not taken about mortgages they cant afford!!

Considering most people COULD afford these mortgage when they got them i find it a very strange thing to say,do you not agree OP? It was only later when s**t really hit the fan people couldnt afford to pay,so very few took a mortgages out with the knowledge they could not pay them down the line.

Of course if everyone had known things were gonna go the way they did they wouldnt have taken those mortgages,and i reckon the banks would not have lent them either.

Our economic system is all about confidence resulting in boom-bust cycles. the bigger the boom the bigger the bust. It was ever thus so imagining that everyone would remain on ever-increasing wages is ridiculous.

I don't think you could teach that level of responsibility to the irish. The Germans have rent control which avoids the inflated prices and keeps cost of living down. Never in a million years could you get the irish to agree to that kind of policy.

Shenshen

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

All ifs and or buts im afraid, not everybody behaved like this but sure rant away.

No, not everybody did.
Those who didn't are now being asked to pick up the tap for those who did behave like that, with suggestions being thrown around that those woh did overstretch should be allowed to just hand their house back to the bank and walk away.

That's what personal responsibility is about - it's not about never making a mistake, it's aknowledging if you did and not trying to shift the blame. And it's about trying to find a sensible way out of the trouble you got yourself into without impacting innocent bystanders.

lukesmom

It's so easy to blame 'de gubbermint' for everything. People need to take responsibility for the situation they find themselves in.

Grayson

EoinHef wrote: »

Considering most people COULD afford these mortgage when they got them i find it a very strange thing to say,do you not agree OP? It was only later when s**t really hit the fan people couldnt afford to pay,so very few took a mortgages out with the knowledge they could not pay them down the line.

First of all, lets exclude people who couldn't pay the mortgage because they got sick or lost a job or something like that. That could happen when the economy is in full boom and they'd still be screwed.

A lot of people though are over extended. They were over extended in the boom and just didn't realise it. They went for a mortgage and asked what the max they could get was. Some topped it up with over drafts and loans. They could just afford it during the boom and assumed that wages etc would rise. When they ended up with less cash due to taxation increases it brought them below the line they needed to live on. Plus the negative equity means they can't offload the property.


However I think that most people in this situation have taken responsibility. they made cutbacks in their expenses and are adjusting. they realise that although the bank let them get those loans/mortgages and although the government allowed the banks to do it, it was their own choice.

the thing is that these people aren't whingers. It's only the whingers we hear.

Tiger Mcilroy

geeksauce wrote: »

Good rebuttle there, no ifs or buts about it, people were stupid about the money they borrowed, now that they are realising how stupid they were they are choosing to blame everyone else but themselves for their stupid decisions.

"Ah sure it's the governments fault, bloody government grrrr :mad::mad::mad::mad:"...."sure how could anyone predict our incomes wouldn't keep rising and would in fact fall"....."no way could anyone see this coming"..."the banks have a lot to answer for, making me borrow so much money, even though I really didn't want to, bloody banks grrrrrrr :mad::mad::mad::mad:"

In fairness your making up scenarios that didnt happen and are using them to argue with.

Quin_Dub

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

So if somebody lost their job its ok but if somebodys circumstances change for whatever reason were stupid?..im not defending anybody and we all should pay our bills but posters claiming they had the first clue at the time and were one of the minority that saw it all coming is pure waffle.

Not what I said at all....

As other posters have said , it's got nothing to do with anyone claiming prescience in foreseeing the current economic situation but it's about looking at the future and "Stress testing" the cost of the mortgage to see if it is manageable under a number of reasonable scenarios.

• Loss of Job
• Interest Rate change
• Personal circumstances change like having kids , getting married etc.

All of these are reasonable things to consider when taking on a 20 yr+ financial responsibility.

You need to review them and either accept the risk or mitigate against it by reducing the size of your mortgage or if possible taking out other protections (income protection policies etc).

My point around people who lost their job was simply that that one is probably the hardest to mitigate against outside of insurance policies , which can be expensive..

I have sympathy for people in that situation , but I have significantly less for people who didn't plan for the fact that they might have kids or that they might not be made managing director of their company in 5 years etc...

The Strawman Argument

A lot of the stuff people are saying here applies to Irish people are really things that just apply to humans in general...


One reason there are regulating bodies and whatnot is to ensure that the banks/etc don't lose the run of themselves by being making overly large risks during booms.
RE: loans, you can basically guarantee a lot of the applicants are gonna be a bit clueless in terms of forecasting their own finances across multiple decades and there's a pretty good chance they're gonna exaggerate their figures a good bit to boost their chances of getting the loan. It's the banks job to see through that ****, it's the regulator's job to see through the bank's ****...

the evasion_kid

People got too caught up in the property market it was all buy,buy,buy and get your foot on the property ladder,with a mortage that would probably see you into the grave first.I remember couples i used to drink with nearly bragging about their 400,000 euro mortgages and thinking to myself how insane it all was,some lost their jobs ended up arguing,splitting up and moving back in with their parents.