Seven-year-olds banned from tractors

dh1985

Genghis Cant wrote: »

According to the HSA accidents involving farmers over 55 often account for over 70% of on farm deaths.
50% of fatal accidents on farm in 2011 were over 65.
Maybe this needs to be looked at first.

Those figures may just reflect.the fact that a large proportion of farmers are over 65. Some of these surveys dont point out things like these. But I do understand your post too as sometimes the older guys are the people with the poor attitudes to safety

djmc

A bit over the top a modern tractor would be a safer place for a child than a car as they would be far more likely to be injured or killed in a car crash
The farm is no place for young kids unsupervised though backing over a child when putting in silage etc. or livestock would be a far greater risk IMO.

frazzledhome

mahoney_j wrote: »

No way my daughter is coming out with me on the farm,way too many hidden dangers and u just can't watch everything.there just not d enough to understand how dangerous a farm actually is.what do u do if your say putting out bales up and down out of tractor??if little Johnny is sitting in the tractor whilst your taking off plastic etc what's he/she going to do,naturally enough grab a lever or jump in the driver seat.i was on our farm with my dad as a young lad and often hear of stories about me or my brother and our near misses with the cows,tractor,bales of hay etcher got away lucky enough .
Most farms are now very busy places and one man operations ,if I need help I get the da or wife to give me a dig out but never a child as if anything happend I couldn't live with it.i think that proposal is a great idea ifvitbeven saves one life

Off seat in my loader or tractor nothing works or if you're too light. Like drive on lawn mower.

My lads are in the tractor since v small always warned about not touching anything, educate them. They all have at some stage jumped into seat while in opening a gap or something, all have hit throttle and all have been delivered home on the spot. Lots if tears but none will touch a control now. Educate farmer and kids

Feckthis

I remember when I was young my dad left myself and my brother in the car while he went into a house. I sat into the driver seat and pulled down the handbrake( we we're on a hill) we hoped of the car behind. No one was injured thankfully. And on a another note
My dad always reminds me about the story of a man who had a dog out with him ploughing. A tip broke, the man left the dog in the cab while fixing tip! Dog dropped the lift arms crushing the man instantly. He was a local and good friends with dad at the time. Still don't think he has fully got over it!

mahoney_j

frazzledhome wrote: »

Off seat in my loader or tractor nothing works or if you're too light. Like drive on lawn mower.

My lads are in the tractor since v small always warned about not touching anything, educate them. They all have at some stage jumped into seat while in opening a gap or something, all have hit throttle and all have been delivered home on the spot. Lots if tears but none will touch a control now. Educate farmer and kids

Agree but kids are kids all in takes is to hit the loader joystick and drop a bale,press a button and on comes pro or drop the linkage arms,too late to send them home then.i know when I was a kid and if told dont don't press that button or touch that it be a challenge I'd have to take,I was a kid and didn't see the danger,your kids and you got away with it but all it takes is one slip up and curtains

Muckit

The stanford marshmallow test comes to mind.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/11117560/The-marshmallow-test-Stanford-University-experiment-that-claims-to-predict-a-childs-future-successes.html

Watch the video in link

frazzledhome

Muckit wrote: »

The stanford marshmallow test comes to mind.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/11117560/The-marshmallow-test-Stanford-University-experiment-that-claims-to-predict-a-childs-future-successes.html

Watch the video in link

Will try tomorrow, I think I know the result I'll probably be surprised. The youngest will eat his and then will eat one of the other's. could be wrong

Sam Kade

twin_beacon wrote: »

I disagree with it, in a lot of cases, the safest place for a young child to be is actually in the cab, with the driver. the driver knows exactly where they are at all times.

There were accidents where the door of the tractor swung open on the road and the passenger fell out and was crushed to death.

There was a neighbour of mine who cut silage for another neighbour and he used to take the neighbours children for a drive around the field on the harvester tractor. He always closed all the windows and tied both door handles to one another with rope so there was no chance of them opening a door, and they were 8 or 9 at the time.

GRASSorMUCK

We have no kids around the yard full stop if anything is going on. The guys with kids know them selves not to bring the kids out to a job that requires a lot of concentration or if they're pushed for time and 'have to get on'.
But eg. The combine driver will have them out as otherwise he might not see them from one week to the next.

Dawggone

Total ban in place here.
Main yard is beside a town and the national pastime for the kids is to come and watch. PITA.

keep going

I also think the children are safest in the cab but I suppose what they are trying to do is keep childern out of the environment altogether.that said I know of one case where the child left his enclosed garden came down to the father with tragic consequences but the thing about all this is to get farmers to stop and think safety every now again.I have to admit I also had a cavalier attitudes to safety but now as the young lads are growing up do I want to educate them that way .proscuting fellas for breachs is actually a good thing if it educate s a few more in the area but alot of the an anti authority stance is taken.my childern do help me and and do get spins on tractors but they are not up on it all day.the problem is farmers have a number of big risk factors.1they work alone alot.2they deal with large unpredictable animals3they work with machinery in constanly changing environment 4work tends to be done in bursts of pressure due to weather.unfortunately these factors are the root cause of alot of farm accidents but that also means we should be more safety conscious than other industries

whisky_galore

dh1985 wrote: »

But I do understand your post too as sometimes the older guys are the people with the poor attitudes to safety

I would think complacency, taking short cuts and over familiarity would have a lot to do with this, and when things start getting out of hand esp. stock handling they can be a lot slower than a younger person to get out of harm's way.

Don't know if I would trust a kid in a tractor cab NOT to touch anything whilst I was off on the ground, even accidentally, education is all well and good and saying that my little Mary or my Johnny wouldn't do that, would you bet your life on it? This is a child who probably has very little concept of death and potential hazards... it only takes one second of curiousity, devil makes work for little hands. Most of us p*ssed around with tractor controls and car handbrakes like they were Fisher Price activity centres in our time, I'll bet.

Kevhog1988

Ive a 3 yr old who is absolutely tractor mad. I bought him a tractor lawnmower that we can set in first gear and let him mosey along at 1/2 mile per hour. Now after reading this I'm wondering if its such a good idea. I would have been reared on machinery, i was driving diggers from 5/6 yrs of age but i was always thought of the dangers also. I suppose maybe i was just lucky that i never had an accident or injured someone else.

twin_beacon

mahoney_j wrote: »

No way my daughter is coming out with me on the farm,way too many hidden dangers and u just can't watch everything.there just not d enough to understand how dangerous a farm actually is.what do u do if your say putting out bales up and down out of tractor??if little Johnny is sitting in the tractor whilst your taking off plastic etc what's he/she going to do,naturally enough grab a lever or jump in the driver seat.i was on our farm with my dad as a young lad and often hear of stories about me or my brother and our near misses with the cows,tractor,bales of hay etcher got away lucky enough .
Most farms are now very busy places and one man operations ,if I need help I get the da or wife to give me a dig out but never a child as if anything happend I couldn't live with it.i think that proposal is a great idea ifvitbeven saves one life

I agree with your points, I would never actually have a child in the cab with me for general yard work though as you are in and out of the cab, and its usually low speed work anyway.
but there is another side to it as well. When silage is being made by a contractor, they are in a rush to get to the next job. You have large tractors driving as quick as they can from the harvester to the pit, the in the yard you have the loading shovel. Exact same scenario for slurry spreading.
20 years ago, any time I heard a tractor in the summer I was gone like a bullet from a gun to see what it was. running around fields where silage was being made. Most contractors insisted that I go into the cab with them, as I would not get in the way in the field. I spend many hours of my summer holidays from national school on our neighbours john deere harvester, in the passenger seat. Now fast forward 20 years, tractors are much bigger, and travel much faster, and now kids are banned from the cabs! Honestly I can see this resulting in a death. all it takes is some child standing in the gap of a field when a tractor turns in.

trixychic

Ok this is something i have a real bee in my bonnet about.

A farm is a place of work. As is a bar, an office, a shop or a factory. We don't allow our children to come to work with us in these places do we? So why should it be different for farms?

Just so the child can be "educated"? There are now subjects in schools and colleges for ppl wanting to take up farming as with any other profession.

All little ones are going to love getting into tractors and going around. My 2 boys really love it. But they also love the idea of going driving in the front seat without proper restraint.

Kids don't know what is safe or not. Its our job as parents to teach them. I certainly won't be bringing my child to work any time soon as among other things it is not safe for them.

Kids don't belong in the work place ergo they don't belong on farms.

fastrac

An ease to contractors who dont want to offend customers by refusing to take kids for spins.A tractor driver has enough to be doing at busy times. Having witnessed two serious farm accidents I cant even begin to tell you the effect it has on families.

mahoney_j

trixychic wrote: »

Ok this is something i have a real bee in my bonnet about.

A farm is a place of work. As is a bar, an office, a shop or a factory. We don't allow our children to come to work with us in these places do we? So why should it be different for farms?

Just so the child can be "educated"? There are now subjects in schools and colleges for ppl wanting to take up farming as with any other profession.

All little ones are going to love getting into tractors and going around. My 2 boys really love it. But they also love the idea of going driving in the front seat without proper restraint.

Kids don't know what is safe or not. Its our job as parents to teach them. I certainly won't be bringing my child to work any time soon as among other things it is not safe for them.

Kids don't belong in the work place ergo they don't belong on farms.

100% agree,.have to say I'm astounded reading some of posts here with from what I can read is lads making excuses for having kids on a farm.a farm is no place for a child full stop unless 100% full time supervised.the fact that most of us grew up in a farm is a crap excuse,Farms were smaller then,machinery a lot smaller and less stock about.its a wonder there is so many farm accidents about when people have a cavalier attitude to farm safety and their families.

Muckit

I wonder how legislation will be worded is it 'agricultural vehicle' or 'tractor' or 'agricultural tractor'?

I most definitely think ride on lawn mower tractors should be included. Young lad 5 years old on this morning on Ireland am. Lost his leg from the knee down with one.

I can see both sides as regards this new law in general. There are good arguments on both sides. But I suppose ultimately as some others have said, bringing a child into an office let alone a factory wouldn't be allowed so why should it be tolerated in a farm situation?

I would say in this context, the new law didn't go far enough. Perhaps no child under 7 should be allowed on a farm full stop. As has been qualified by many others on here, a child is in as much if not more danger being in the presence of machinery while NOT in the cab.

Given their size, young children are a serious risk around livestock also . Cattle look on them as akin to a dog and are more curious and defensive of them as a result. Children have serious mobility issues, as have elderly members of family. If a dangerous situation did arise they wouldn't be able to react quick enough.

There also is the paradoxical imagery of animals portrayed in kids tv programmes of them being cute, cuddly and 'friendly.' Soft toys etc.

Kids are not adults plan and simple. They don't think or comprehend the dangers like us adults. Everything is a play thing. They don't give a rats ass about making silage making or any other farm job for that matter. They're always just looking for the opportunity in it for them 'to play.'

Childcare costs are not a valid argument either. The shelf stacker in lidl or the high brow office worker can't use this as a valid reason to bring their children to work. Farms aren't creches or a baby sitting service.

trixychic

Muckit wrote: »

Childcare costs are not a valid argument either. The shelf stacker in lidl or the high brow office worker can't use this as a valid reason to bring their children to work. Farms aren't creches or a baby sitting service.

Can't agree more!

twin_beacon

its very easy to say "ban all kids from farms", but where do you draw line? Our house is in the middle of a farm, surrounded by fields. When I was a kid, during the summer If I wasnt chasing tractors, I would have been playing hurling/football/soccer in the fields around the house, usually with cattle or sheep in them. I was a pure outdoors kid, I hated being inside. Banning kids from farms, would have to mean fields too, that would be terrible imo.

Kids should not be around farm yards alone, I agree with that. But to ban them from being a passenger in tractors is a bad decision imo. The reality is, during silage making/slurry spreading, any kid that is interested in farming will want to be, and will involved in it. the safest place for them is the cab of the tractor, even more so with modern tractors. Forcing them outside for the cab, means they will be hanging around the field/yard which is much more dangerous.

trixychic

twin_beacon wrote: »

The reality is, during silage making/slurry spreading, any kid that is interested in farming will want to be, and will involved in it. the safest place for them is the cab of the tractor, even more so with modern tractors. Forcing them outside for the cab, means they will be hanging around the field/yard which is much more dangerous.

Hold on. My kids are very interested in my job and i know that they would love to come with me. That doesn't mean i bring them to work.

My sister was always so excited about the work of our aunt. But she Didnt get to go with her.

Just because they want to go, doesn't mean i let them. They are also excited about the thoughts of flying in air planes. Do you ever see a pilot sitting in a cock pit with their son or daughter because "is interested" in becoming a pilot?
No you don't.

loyatemu

would it be ok for a builder to bring his kids to the site provided they stayed in the cab of the JCB?

trixychic

loyatemu wrote: »

would it be ok for a builder to bring his kids to the site provided they stayed in the cab of the JCB?

Exactly. Any other work place wouldn't allow it.

kowtow

trixychic wrote: »

Do you ever see a pilot sitting in a cock pit with their son or daughter because "is interested" in becoming a pilot?
No you don't.

You don't see it every day, but you do see it. On at least one occasion with tragic consequences if I remember.

It's not normal to take a child to an external workplace - although it's not unheard of on an occasional basis. In fact it is encouraged - "take your daughter to work day" has been a huge success for years in many countries. If we do it here, we had better hold it on a day when there are no tractors working..

The trouble is that whether we like it or not, farming is different, perhaps especially so in Ireland where small family farms are still the norm. It isn't normal to have an industry where the majority of independent business are unprofitable on any sane accounting test, or viable only with continuous and market-distorting government subsidy - but with family farms we do it, because we believe that farming is not pure workplace or pure business but in some way vocation. Part of farming is learning to be a custodian of the land for future generations, and allowing those generations to absorb that responsibility over time for themselves. Without that how would they ever be mad enough to do it?

The same cannot easily be said for a factory or an office.

Some of us live in the middle of the yard, some don't. Some farms are busy with tractors, some aren't - this one only had horses until a handful of years ago. The differences between them are what make them special.

What we should all agree is that safety is something to be learned by all of us and taught by all of us on a daily basis. When I look at my teenage son and his friends I still see a worrying, macho, devil-may-care risk taking streak around farm machinery which I recognise from my own youth. We might do better to figure out how to educate out that defect, which continues into adult-hood with disastrous results, than prescribe a one size fits all rule which says that an eight year old can sit in a cab without let or hindrance but her brother two months younger cannot.

mahoney_j

kowtow wrote: »

You don't see it every day, but you do see it. On at least one occasion with tragic consequences if I remember.

It's not normal to take a child to an external workplace - although it's not unheard of on an occasional basis. In fact it is encouraged - "take your daughter to work day" has been a huge success for years in many countries. If we do it here, we had better hold it on a day when there are no tractors working..

The trouble is that whether we like it or not, farming is different, perhaps especially so in Ireland where small family farms are still the norm. It isn't normal to have an industry where the majority of independent business are unprofitable on any sane accounting test, or viable only with continuous and market-distorting government subsidy - but with family farms we do it, because we believe that farming is not pure workplace or pure business but in some way vocation. Part of farming is learning to be a custodian of the land for future generations, and allowing those generations to absorb that responsibility over time for themselves. Without that how would they ever be mad enough to do it?

The same cannot easily be said for a factory or an office.

Some of us live in the middle of the yard, some don't. Some farms are busy with tractors, some aren't - this one only had horses until a handful of years ago. The differences between them are what make them special.

What we should all agree is that safety is something to be learned by all of us and taught by all of us on a daily basis. When I look at my teenage son and his friends I still see a worrying, macho, devil-may-care risk taking streak around farm machinery which I recognise from my own youth. We might do better to figure out how to educate out that defect, which continues into adult-hood with disastrous results, than prescribe a one size fits all rule which says that an eight year old can sit in a cab without let or hindrance but her brother two months younger cannot.

Don't care what anyone says ,farming is not different.it is s job just like many others .i worked off farm for 10 years and if I wanted to Bering my daughter to work id of got some response.the farm death/accident statistics over last few years are a poor reflection on the sector.cop on and stop making excuses .its a pity we don't put same emphasis on farm safety that we do on farm efficiency ,cost control,grass budgeting etc

kowtow

mahoney_j wrote: »

Don't care what anyone says ,farming is not different.it is s job just like many others .i worked off farm for 10 years and if I wanted to Bering my daughter to work id of got some response.the farm death/accident statistics over last few years are a poor reflection on the sector.cop on and stop making excuses .its a pity we don't put same emphasis on farm safety that we do on farm efficiency ,cost control,grass budgeting etc

I'm not making any excuses, and I'm utterly appalled by the level of safety on Irish farms and the lax attitude of most of the enforcing authorities.

It's just that one size fits all regulations aren't a great way to deal with these things, usually because they allow regulators to say something is being done when in reality it isn't.

And if we really want to run farms as a pure business, staffed only by professionals and owned by rational shareholders, with all the attendant financial risks and costs of safety compliance then there are far more effective ways to go about it than fiddling with a couple of HSA regulations - but we need to accept that the family farm and landholding is a thing of the past, stop subsidising & encouraging hobby farming, and accept that this country should probably have about a quarter of the 'working' farms it has today.

On the plus side, there would be a lot less tractors around to fit safety seats in.

twin_beacon

loyatemu wrote: »

would it be ok for a builder to bring his kids to the site provided they stayed in the cab of the JCB?

doesn't really apply, unless your house is surrounded by building sites, where as houses in the country side are surrounded by farms.

The law doesn't ban children from farms, just from the cabs of tractors. If kids are going to be around farms during the busy summer period, then the safest place for them to be, is inside the cab of a tractor.

twin_beacon

mahoney_j wrote: »

Don't care what anyone says ,farming is not different.it is s job just like many others .i worked off farm for 10 years and if I wanted to Bering my daughter to work id of got some response.the farm death/accident statistics over last few years are a poor reflection on the sector.cop on and stop making excuses .its a pity we don't put same emphasis on farm safety that we do on farm efficiency ,cost control,grass budgeting etc

well, if you want to use those stats in to back up your argument, then compare the number of accidents that happened inside the cab of a tractor, vs ones outside the cab. My point here has always been that the inside of a cab (unless the tractor itself is old and poorly maintained) is a lot safer then forcing kids to be outside the cab.

frazzledhome

Very good points made that no reasonable person can disagree with

Forget tractors for a minute. Kids under 10 not allowed on farms. So I'm feeding a few calves they can't come, mucking out a pony, they can't come, stand in a gap etc

Many farm houses are in the farm yard what's to do here. Here if silage is on no kids allowed save the one who's turn it is to travel with me. I'd never ask another person to take one.

We all have safety statements for our beef audit and that's about it. It's about educating farmers and families about risks.

3 times a year my wife and I take kids around the farm outlining the risks. We have had a major accident on the farm 10 yrs ago so its not taken safety is not taken lightly. Supervise and educate

I said

theemigrant wrote: »

Ive a 3 yr old who is absolutely tractor mad. I bought him a tractor lawnmower that we can set in first gear and let him mosey along at 1/2 mile per hour. Now after reading this I'm wondering if its such a good idea. I would have been reared on machinery, i was driving diggers from 5/6 yrs of age but i was always thought of the dangers also. I suppose maybe i was just lucky that i never had an accident or injured someone else.

What speed does the blade cut at,little toes or fingers gone in an instant.