Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert **See Mod Warning Post #1**

MrJones1973

The 2 posts idea has been floating around in union circles for a long long time. They might not be 2 offered and they might be temporary! But Posts will be in the mix -mark my words. Now I have heard of schools where they will eat their young for a post-so that might swing some. The delusionally ambitious-work out the odds on getting one!

km79

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

The 2 posts idea has been floating around in union circles for a long long time. They might not be 2 offered and they might be temporary! But Posts will be in the mix -mark my words. Now I have heard of schools where they will eat their young for a post-so that might swing some. The delusionally ambitious-work out the odds on getting one!

JC Reform has to be kept a completely separate issue from everything else.
if the union allow anything else in to muddy the waters then its game over. for us and for them !

man_no_plan

km79 wrote: »

JC Reform has to be kept a completely separate issue from everything else.
if the union allow anything else in to muddy the waters then its game over. for us and for them !

Agree 100%. There will be movement on posts in the next two years I think with or without JCSA. So to let two posts sway it for you is too much.

With 100% external assessment alone you would need two posts to track the schedules and enter students and coordinate. Hoe would you manage with two posts and thousands of reslts to be entered?

MrJones1973

Hmm but you cant really bring in such a radically different course without extra posts? Even separate from the assessment issue-it involves a lot of change=ie short course etc But even if you have different view-Jan will still try to muddy the waters like every Government has last 15 years. Throw them 2%-ask for more work. Recession comes-take back money but leave the work. I know bench marking gave a 10% increase but all that money is gone and you are stuck with work

So We know their game plan-can see it a mile off. Offer a few posts. Throw in some pennies. Will we fall for it again? My heart says No. My head says...

evolving_doors

offering posts is just going to create more infighting in schools as to who 'deserves' the one measly post.

Offering money is just insulting. Whatever they could offer would never be enough. Unions would loose face by accepting a payoff for a core founding principle.

Unions need a win. All they have to do is keep saying no, more strikes will mean a rise in membership.

After todays dept. leak the writing is on the wall. Its only a matter of giving the govt. a gracious defeat by cooking up some type of review committee/ postponement to kick the can down the road

km79

Armelodie wrote: »

offering posts ous jusy going to create more infighting in schools as to who 'deserves' the one measley post.

Offering money is just insulting. Whatever they could offer would never be enough. Unions would loose face by accepting a payoff for a core founding principle.

Unions need a win. All they have to do is keep saying no, more strikes will mean a rise in membership.

After todays dept. leak the writing is on the wall. Its only a matter of giving the govt. a gracious defeat by cooking up some type of review committee/ postponement to kick the can down the road

completely agree
I was actually suprised Jan did not immediatley postpone it for 12 months when she took over .
If the union leadership have anything about them thats what will happen in next month or so
and after this "leak" I'm very optimistic .....

killbillvol2

Falling for an offer of posts would be idiotic. Between pension levy, USC and all the other taxes a post is worth about a third of the allowance.

amacca

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Falling for an offer of posts would be idiotic. Between pension levy, USC and all the other taxes a post is worth about a third of the allowance.

they are worth sweet fa (all things considered) if you ask me

some inconsistency -but many/most now with extremely high workload/time commitment with very little time in lieu considering whats involved and a pittance money wise when tax/deductions etc taken into account

if you were to think about it and place a value on your time as a professional not to mention your health I believe people would tell them where to shove these posts

thing is I think a significant portion of senior staff take them on as its sort of the done thing/next in line, no need to rock the boat, doesn't look good if you turn it down etc

deiseindublin

Was it not released under FOI - 5 year rule?

man_no_plan

deiseindublin wrote: »

Was it not released under FOI - 5 year rule?

Yeah it was.

The blueprint is here although jc reform isn't on it you can see the line of thinking.

http://oldwww.finance.gov.ie/documents/pressreleases/2009/bl100vol2.pdf education is from about page 55 on. Grim reading.

sitstill

km79 wrote: »

completely agree
I was actually suprised Jan did not immediatley postpone it for 12 months when she took over .
If the union leadership have anything about them thats what will happen in next month or so
and after this "leak" I'm very optimistic .....

What was the leak? I must have missed it.

km79

sitstill wrote: »

What was the leak? I must have missed it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/axing-of-junior-cert-proposed-in-2009-to-save-money-1.2038912
turns out it may not be a leak after all as poster above stated it had to be released after 5 years due to Freedom of Information
still its good for the campaign and pyrs the govt under even more pressure

spurious

The next target will be the LCA, which compared to the JC and LC is hugely expensive per candidate, as it is based on interviews and practical assessments as well as written exams.

The difference between that and what is proposed for the JC being that the assessments/interviews are done by external people and they are paid, which is what could have been done for the JC, had the actual intent been reform and not money saving.

MrJones1973

endakenny wrote: »

In your opinion, why was the ASTI leadership unwilling to continue industrial action against the HRA?

Interesting question. I think they were afraid we might have had actual redundancies and also they don't really believe the membership have the balls for a real dispute. My view was the government would not have had the balls to fire teachers and that we would have achieved even more by holding out. We need a real leader who is elected by every member. The general sec can sit pretty on 130k without election.We need a man or woman with vision who knows that leadership is not playing to the fears of the masses but leading them to a new place.

rainbowtrout

So I got paid today. Down €60 from strike.

Moody_mona

rainbowtrout wrote: »

So I got paid today. Down €60 from strike.

I'm down €35 net. Which makes me even madder that we had teachers cross the picket for the sake of that little money.

km79

rainbowtrout wrote: »

So I got paid today. Down €60 from strike.

similar
was worth every penny

rainbowtrout

Moody_mona wrote: »

I'm down €35 net. Which makes me even madder that we had teachers cross the picket for the sake of that little money.

Ya mine was net too. Just got my payslip. Down 164 gross but it taxes me out of higher pension bracket I think.

Didn't my increment this time either.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ya mine was net too. Just got my payslip. Down 164 gross but it taxes me out of higher pension bracket I think.

Didn't my increment this time either.

As a matter of interest how do you mean it taxes you out of higher pension bracket?

sitstill

rainbowtrout wrote: »

So I got paid today. Down €60 from strike.

I'm only down €50 net but it was €130 gross.

rainbowtrout

Armelodie wrote: »

As a matter of interest how do you mean it taxes you out of higher pension bracket?

I haven't sat down and compared this payslip with a fortnight ago but I remember the last time that for the different levels of pension levy that I didn't earn enough to push me into the highest one. One quirk the last time of that was that I ended up €30 better off. I'm guessing similar has happened this time.

MrJones1973

Brother in law back from England . primary teacher. Works until mid night six days a week. Must correct every single piece of work in detail. No text books . Three meetings per week. Starts to work 745am.
This is your future unless u fight now to the end. I feel like john the baptist and we know what happened to him....

amacca

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Brother in law back from England . primary teacher. Works until mid night six days a week. Must correct every single piece of work in detail. No text books . Three meetings per week. Starts to work 745am.
This is your future unless u fight now to the end. I feel like john the baptist and we know what happened to him....

mid-night six days a week???? starts at 7:45 + distinctly average pay

I'd take nearly any menial job for the sake of my physical and mental health any day above that.

I'd associate that kind of crazy schedule with either 1) third/developing world sweatshop 2) A job with very very high pressure, stress and instability but with the promise of very large monetary rewards (if you don't mind shortening your life) such as investment banking etc or 3) actual slave labour

Theres no point in doing that to someone or yourself if you want them to be an effective teacher…..if the system can't see that as wrong then its a not a system worth being in.

acequion

Must look at my pay check again,but I think I'm down €40-50. A nice happy xmas on xmas eve! But worth every penny and if anything it only toughens to resolve to fight it out.

Happy xmas everyone.We deserve it.:P

gaiscioch

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Brother in law back from England . primary teacher. Works until mid night six days a week. Must correct every single piece of work in detail. No text books . Three meetings per week. Starts to work 745am.
This is your future unless u fight now to the end. I feel like john the baptist and we know what happened to him....

There are far too many of these stories coming back from Irish people in the English education system. Just what do the so-called leaders of their teachers' unions do besides toe the establishment line in the hope that they'll get some royal title at the end of it all? Why any Irish person would sell themselves short by being an indentured servant in that education system beats the band.

The entire system has class warfare written all over it. It screams it. Teachers are dirt there, and they only have themselves to blame. Their docile, deferential culture to a top-heavy Tory culture which rewards obscenely people in finance will forever make them expendable and utterly dispensable. All the power English teachers could have if they had the balls to assert themselves and redress the deep imbalance in the value system towards workers there.


To paraphrase Harney, the worst day in unemployment in Ireland is better than the best day in employment as a teacher in England. There are tons of teaching jobs in England for a reason.

gaiscioch

Just checked my salary and I'm on precisely the same gross and net pay as I was in September - i.e. neither the strike day nor the increment have been applied yet. I'm not VEC.

When does our 25% reduction in the increment end? The 25% which this government took this year was worth €750 to me. Next year, we will all have another 25% reduction (via the increment being given after 15 months rather than 12 months). That's a lot of money, even if it is taken very slyly.

evolving_doors

gaiscioch wrote: »

There are far too many of these stories coming back from Irish people in the English education system. Just what do the so-called leaders of their teachers' unions do besides toe the establishment line in the hope that they'll get some royal title at the end of it all? Why any Irish person would sell themselves short by being an indentured servant in that education system beats the band.

The entire system has class warfare written all over it. It screams it. Teachers are dirt there, and they only have themselves to blame. Their docile, deferential culture to a top-heavy Tory culture which rewards obscenely people in finance will forever make them expendable and utterly dispensable. All the power English teachers could have if they had the balls to assert themselves and redress the deep imbalance in the value system towards workers there.


To paraphrase Harney, the worst day in unemployment in Ireland is better than the best day in employment as a teacher in England. There are tons of teaching jobs in England for a reason.

I suspect that in England teachers didn't bother much with the little changes and just 'wanted to get on with their own teaching'. But by the time they turned around to look at all those 'little changes" it was too late. Death by a thousand cuts.

Same thing happening here, teachers have little time to sit back and see the wood from the trees. Many of my colleagues saw the umpteen hr/cp votes as an annoyance to their yearly plan of 'getting the course covered', and now theyre wondering where has all the time gone, and why we have to do all these silly meetings.

amacca

Armelodie wrote: »

I suspect that in England teachers didn't bother much with the little changes and just 'wanted to get on with their own teaching'. But by the time they turned around to look at all those 'little changes" it was too late. Death by a thousand cuts.

Same thing happening here, teachers have little time to sit back and see the wood from the trees. Many of my colleagues saw the umpteen hr/cp votes as an annoyance to their yearly plan of 'getting the course covered', and now theyre wondering where has all the time gone, and why we have to do all these silly meetings.

I agree but I further suspect that a lot of the nonsense that has happened has also been down to a divide and conquer strategy

a) part time below 22hr contracts - this leaves new entrants and those struggling to get full hours on very unsure ground and unable to stand up for themselves as the rug could be pulled out from under them - thats a nice number who won't rock the boat - also train many many more teachers than there are positions for so there won't be as much need to take on people on full hours - brings in a nice revenue stream for universities and who cares if the profession is oversubscribed - its just another lever to apply pressure

b) don't deduct much money on those near retirement in any negotiations etc as they are overrepresented/more active in unions and they will allow "reforms" (it makes me laugh to hear much of what has happened described as reforms) - thats another group who won't rock the boat thus weakening the hand of any group who does

and possibly

[c) make union leaders "partners" in the process of educational reform - theres no need to be enemies after all they would be better able to represent their members interests if they actually wanted to resist the establishment for the good of the system - part of me wonders after what has gone on if theres not some sort of payoff in it for union chiefs in terms of future board member positions etc etc]

MrJones1973

gaiscioch wrote: »

There are far too many of these stories coming back from Irish people in the English education system. Just what do the so-called leaders of their teachers' unions do besides toe the establishment line in the hope that they'll get some royal title at the end of it all? Why any Irish person would sell themselves short by being an indentured servant in that education system beats the band.

The entire system has class warfare written all over it. It screams it. Teachers are dirt there, and they only have themselves to blame. Their docile, deferential culture to a top-heavy Tory culture which rewards obscenely people in finance will forever make them expendable and utterly dispensable. All the power English teachers could have if they had the balls to assert themselves and redress the deep imbalance in the value system towards workers there.


To paraphrase Harney, the worst day in unemployment in Ireland is better than the best day in employment as a teacher in England. There are tons of teaching jobs in England for a reason.

But we are heading there bit by bit-I doubt it will reach 66 hour hour weeks but close enough and we have only ourselves to blame. We have allowed a worse sick leave scheme to be implemented than England. They dont have drive by inspections. If the sum total of your action against this creeping menace is an odd post here or just a no vote-it aint enough.

MrJones1973

amacca wrote: »

I agree but I further suspect that a lot of the nonsense that has happened has also been down to a divide and conquer strategy

a) part time below 22hr contracts - this leaves new entrants and those struggling to get full hours on very unsure ground and unable to stand up for themselves as the rug could be pulled out from under them - thats a nice number who won't rock the boat - also train many many more teachers than there are positions for so there won't be as much need to take on people on full hours - brings in a nice revenue stream for universities and who cares if the profession is oversubscribed - its just another lever to apply pressure

b) don't deduct much money on those near retirement in any negotiations etc as they are overrepresented/more active in unions and they will allow "reforms" (it makes me laugh to hear much of what has happened described as reforms) - thats another group who won't rock the boat thus weakening the hand of any group who does

and possibly

[c) make union leaders "partners" in the process of educational reform - theres no need to be enemies after all they would be better able to represent their members interests if they actually wanted to resist the establishment for the good of the system - part of me wonders after what has gone on if theres not some sort of payoff in it for union chiefs in terms of future board member positions etc etc]

The general secretary ASTI needs to be elected. Demand it. Motions will be circulating around branch meetings in January for convention. Our branch proposed it- support it by getting off your backsides and going to meetings. Otherwise what has a Gen Sec on 130 k to lose by agreeing to partnership deals. He doubts the memberships appetite for strike but fails to provide leadership or back the recommendation of his own ASTI CEC(elected by members) to reject HR2-instead does a roadshow funded by members to vote for it!

amacca

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

The general secretary ASTI needs to be elected. Demand it. Motions will be circulating around branch meetings in January for convention. Our branch proposed it- support it by getting off your backsides and going to meetings. Otherwise what has a Gen Sec on 130 k to lose by agreeing to partnership deals. He doubts the memberships appetite for strike but fails to provide leadership or back the recommendation of his own ASTI CEC(elected by members) to reject HR2-instead does a roadshow funded by members to vote for it!

Ok..I will.

byhookorbycrook

Interesting to see a letter in the Examiner today from a student council in a school in Navan supporting the teachers' stance.

MacGyver007

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Interesting to see a letter in the Examiner today from a student council in a school in Navan supporting the teachers' stance.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/yourview/teachers-have-our-junior-cert-dispute-backing-304283.html

MrJones1973

Jan 22nd will go ahead-mark my words or I will forever vanish on this site. What is mood in staff rooms?

r93kaey5p2izun

Most in my staffroom seem to be resigned to the inevitability of significant compromise and view strike days as a nuisance. It's depressing.

evolving_doors

Ya I think teachers in my staff room have generally accepted the strike. Standing out in the cold has woken a few up in terms of the profession and where education is going.

km79

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Jan 22nd will go ahead-mark my words or I will forever vanish on this site. What is mood in staff rooms?

most people are the same as they always were and always will be
ambivalent

rainbowtrout

There hasn't been any talk of oy really in my staffroom really since we came back. However the odd time it's come up those that were negative towards it (hassle, a days pay docked) aren't so now. That's is a little bit of progress.

sitstill

Do people think it will actually go ahead? Or will they cancel it after these talks on Wednesday with the promise or more talks or some such? I'm getting worried the unions will row back on their stance regarding marking our own students.

aratsarse101

sitstill wrote: »

Do people think it will actually go ahead? Or will they cancel it after these talks on Wednesday with the promise or more talks or some such? I'm getting worried the unions will row back on their stance regarding marking our own students.

me too! I really hope it goes ahead but you wouldn't know what sort of deals will be done.

Frankly frank

aratsarse101 wrote: »

me too! I really hope it goes ahead but you wouldn't know what sort of deals will be done.

Why not more days? As others have pointed out , continue negotiations and refuse to implement JC programme.
Another strike day - We lose income again as do LC students for exams.
More rudderless leadership, where were strikes over pay scales and cuts ....

MrJones1973

Ah jeez-if you dont strike nothing will happen. This issue needs to be forced-would suit Government to have quiet Industrial action. The Strike will go ahead-so stop asking (Teacher voice-look sternly at other posters)

gaiscioch

Last Thursday they took the money from the last strike out of my pay. I note they still have not given me my increment, which should have been paid from 1 December 2014 (itself 3 months later than normal).

"We'll deduct your strike day asap, but delay paying your increment asap" What a fine, eloquent two fingers from the Department of Education to Irish teachers.

evolving_doors

Frankly frank wrote: »

Why not more days? As others have pointed out , continue negotiations and refuse to implement JC programme.
Another strike day - We lose income again as do LC students for exams.
More rudderless leadership, where were strikes over pay scales and cuts ....

Ya I was thinking about that (ignoring that lunch-time strike non-event thing). At the time of CP/HR it was mostly unions etc at the table every other day negotiating over bits and pieces.. so at that stage (and it went on for a fair while) I don't think anyone was going to walk out of the talks and start a strike. As I said before a lot of teachers hadn't a clue what was involved (in fairness there were many elements of give and take to the CP/HR too) so I believe the appetite for strike amongst 'some' teachers simply wasn't there. That was evident by the fact that the motion was passed after the 3rd vote!!!! Teachers just gave up.

This time thought the issue is clear cut. In school assessment or not! So it's a very easy thing to strike over, i.e. take a stand on one issue (not specifically pay related) and hope it strengthens the union with teachers getting on board. And also a bit of a 'rally the troops' for further negotiations if the JCSA in-school assessment is defeated.

evolving_doors

anyone read the FINNISH EXPERT on education in the irish times today. He seemed to offer a bit of balance to the whole debate saying that Ireland shouldn't follow other countries just for the sake of it.

Also they mentioned "Almost all other stakeholders have come out in support of the reform plan, the latest being the Association of Community and Comprehensive Schools, which represents 95 such schools nationwide."

I was just wondering what's the story with these 95 schools. Is it their teachers who are backing the JCSA in-school assessment,, or the managerial body of the schools?

Link HERE

acequion

Thanks for posting that link,Armelodie.I have no idea who this crowd are. State backed people,one would suspect. To my knowledge,community school teachers would be members of the TUI. Hopefully community school teachers who read this thread can enlighten us.

It is worrying to hear of these "stakeholders" who are supposedly all "on board" yet none are actual teachers. While it's not surprising to read such things in The Times or The Indo,it sends out the wrong signals.

Fingers crossed that there will be no climbdown or "compromise. There hasn't been a better time in the last six years to face down the Government's agenda.

Kalimera

ACCS is the management body of Community and Comprehensive schools. The equivalent body to JMB for the Voluntary Secondary schools. See accs.ie
Community schools have both ASTI & TUI members in them. In some ASTI are a majority, in others TUI.

katydid

acequion wrote: »

Thanks for posting that link,Armelodie.I have no idea who this crowd are. State backed people,one would suspect. To my knowledge,community school teachers would be members of the TUI. Hopefully community school teachers who read this thread can enlighten us.

Community COLLEGES are VEC (now ETB) run and teachers would be TUI members. But Community SCHOOLS are not VEC(ETB) run and have a mixture of TUI and ASTI, as far as I know.

acequion

Thanks to the above posters for clarifying. So,why are ACCS supporting the reforms?

katydid

acequion wrote: »

Thanks to the above posters for clarifying. So,why are ACCS supporting the reforms?

They're not teachers and have no concern for the students or the system?