Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert **See Mod Warning Post #1**

rainbowtrout

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Take woodwork for example, the lads spent a few months making a chair / clock, whatever in class.

Usuallye it would be stored up until an examiner drives around and gives it a score.

In the new draft, the woodwork teacher would give the kid a score.

Ideally you'd have an external examiner, but the teacher knows what grade it deserves anyways. So it saves time and money.

Unfortunately some teachers are not so professional as to give the grade that is actually deserved. I've met plenty of 'johnny is weak but turns up for school every day and plays for the county minors, sure he deserves a good mark' types over the years.

Saving time and money isn't what education should be about. Honestly you are like Jan O'Sullivans wet dream at the moment with the stuff you are posting.

rainbowtrout

Chancer3001 wrote: »

New proposal stops the copy/paste bit

If anything it will make it worse.

happywithlife

rainbowtrout wrote: »

If anything it will make it worse.

I agree. Plenty will end up correcting the rough draft first AND then correcting the final document. So twice the work !

happywithlife

Chancer3001 wrote: »

In the new draft, the woodwork teacher would give the kid a score.

Ideally you'd have an external examiner, but the teacher knows what grade it deserves anyways. So it saves time and money.

There a big difference between having a rough idea to what grade A project deserves to actually sitting down and actually marking it. These marks will have to be recorded and submitted and then probably analysed to check the performance against other schools / national average.

doc_17

And will I be able to adjust my marking scheme if I don't have a certain number of As etc?

And if not you will see lots of schools will mainly middle class students getting wonderful results, eventually league tables will be published (cos you know that's another way to assess) and then you may see the deepening of ghettoisation in Irish schools.

spurious

At the moment, there is at least one JC subject where teacher assessment is then externally moderated for assessment purposes.

The teacher project assessment in ESS is optional and paid (not much, but paid, which is an important precedent) following an exam conference. The projects in schools where teachers choose not to correct are corrected by an external moderator and external moderators check the marking in all schools to maintain a standard.

This is what was intended in the original 'new' JC of 1992, but only actually happened in a couple of subjects and though the option was always there for subjects such as History and Geography, it was to my knowledge never taken up.

I can't see any valid reason for house exams to form the basis of assessment. Not sure where that idea is coming from.

acequion

It's because there are teachers out there with the same mind set as a certain stubborn poster here that we are in the mess we're in.

It's a combination of naivete,complacency and blind obedience to whatever the boss wants.
When we had two pay cuts in the one year back in 2009,they said,"Ah shur the money has to be found somewhere"

When that wasn't enough and we had to do CP hours,the same brigade said,"Ah shur tis only an hour a week"

When HR came along they said, "Ah shur can't we correct our copies while doing S&S". To the minority fortunate enough to be able to opt out they said,"shur tis only 600 a year,about 300 out of your pocket."

When sick leave was slashed by more than 50%,they said "shur people were taking advantage".

And now on top of all that we've endured, when we're expected to correct 40% of the JC, the attitude is we "might get away with" our summer tests and "couldn't we be doing something useful with CP hours"!

I will not apologise for my tone of contempt. The architects of the destruction of teaching and education have at each stage been aided and abetted by the spineless from within who will never cry STOP,ENOUGH and who will hang us all out to dry!

Shame on those teachers!!

Chancer3001

Nobody can hang you out to dry in a democracy.

If something is accepted it means the majority are in favour .

rainbowtrout

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Nobody can hang you out to dry in a democracy.

If something is accepted it means the majority are in favour .

This so called democracy had teachers vote 3 times to ram through an agreement they didn't want.

This so called democracy broke the croke park agreement even when we fulfilled our end of the bargain.

This so called democracy has still not paid the December increment to teachers as part of the new agreement even though they had 15 months to adjust their system for the change, but still managed to dock teachers pay on the very next payday after the strike.

We have been permanently tied to that particular democratic washing line and been hanging out to dry for the last 7 years.

Chancer3001

So we voted 3 times. People eventually decided they'd like to accept it.

They did indeed break croke park. Why didn't our union use them for breach of contract?

Increments, no idea, they've apologised and are blaming IT. It seems like a useless system they're using, hopefully they'll backdate the pay making the delay fairly ok.

rainbowtrout

Chancer3001 wrote: »

So we voted 3 times. People eventually decided they'd like to accept it.

They did indeed break croke park. Why didn't our union use them for breach of contract?

Increments, no idea, they've apologised and are blaming IT. It seems like a useless system they're using, hopefully they'll backdate the pay making the delay fairly ok.

No, they knew that they would continually be asked to vote until the government got the response they wanted.

Honestly, you are the government's dream teacher. Tell me, I'm curious, why are you so happy to accept a continued erosion of working conditions within the teaching profession??

Chancer3001

That would be a horrible reason for voting yes. I don't know why anybody would vote yes for that reason.

Also, I never once said I would accept this.

For the record, I think the new jc is a pile of crap. They're trying to force a whole load of extra work on Us. But if they've come to the agreement we could run the school the same way, that wouldn't be too bad.

I'd be voting against accepting this, I don't think it's fair on us, but I don't think it's THAT Bad

rainbowtrout

Chancer3001 wrote: »

That would be a horrible reason for voting yes. I don't know why anybody would vote yes for that reason.

Also, I never once said I would accept this.

For the record, I think the new jc is a pile of crap. They're trying to force a whole load of extra work on Us. But if they've come to the agreement we could run the school the same way, that wouldn't be too bad.

I'd be voting against accepting this, I don't think it's fair on us, but I don't think it's THAT Bad

Your acceptance is based on the fact that you have said several times that you would give written tests and you reckon you could get away with it. you've said that if that's the route your school go down then that's the way you will assess. That implies willingness to accept the terms offered.

You've said that it should be no more extra work, as we would be correcting mocks anyway.

Now you are rowing back saying that it's a whole load of extra work on us. Which is it Chancer?

Chancer3001

I think you neeed to re read what I actually said.

Never said I'd accept it. Just that it's not that bad.

I don't know what you're talking about with the mocks??

I also said, they're TRYING to force extra work on us.

rainbowtrout

Chancer3001 wrote: »

I think you neeed to re read what I actually said.

Never said I'd accept it. Just that it's not that bad.

I don't know what you're talking about with the mocks??

I also said, they're TRYING to force extra work on us.

How these two sentences can be in the same post is beyond me. I give up.

Dr Crippen

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Currently CSPE projects get done in a rough draft in class, then the teacher collects up the rough draft, changes what needs to be changed, corrects them, gives them back and the kids copy/paste the corrected version into the official booklet.

New proposal stops the copy/paste bit

Why? I only ask as I am currently doing the action project with my second years so I am intrigued

Benicetomonty

https://levdavidovic.wordpress.com/2015/02/17/33-questions-on-the-travers-proposals/

Chancer3001

Dr Crippen wrote: »

Why? I only ask as I am currently doing the action project with my second years so I am intrigued

Why what?

Chancer3001

Probabaly not the correct thread, but, one of the proposals is to have in school ballots, or in school collection of ballots I guess.

I think it would be a fantastic way of raising the % of teachers who vote

evolving_doors

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Probabaly not the correct thread, but, one of the proposals is to have in school ballots, or in school collection of ballots I guess.

I think it would be a fantastic way of raising the % of teachers who vote

I agree, although security might be different/more costly compared to votes arriving in head office in the post.

Dr Crippen

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Why what?

Originally Posted by Chancer3001 View Post
Currently CSPE projects get done in a rough draft in class, then the teacher collects up the rough draft, changes what needs to be changed, corrects them, gives them back and the kids copy/paste the corrected version into the official booklet.

New proposal stops the copy/paste bit

km79

Armelodie wrote: »

I agree, although security might be different/more costly compared to votes arriving in head office in the post.

our school steward has done something like this for past few ballots. He made up a little "postbox" which he left in staff room. He then went to the post office each day with the envelopes . He also kept count of the numbers that had voted and gave an update. Worked well and got near 100% voted each time.

spurious

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Probabaly not the correct thread, but, one of the proposals is to have in school ballots, or in school collection of ballots I guess.

I think it would be a fantastic way of raising the % of teachers who vote

The TUI has in school ballots.

MacGyver007

spurious wrote: »

The TUI has in school ballots.

There is a motion about this very idea on the agenda for the ASTI Convention at Easter. It is the last one in the document:
http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/convention-2015-motions//back_to/asti-home/

2011abc

Armelodie wrote: »

I agree, although security might be different/more costly compared to votes arriving in head office in the post.

As there's no questions around the integrity of the head office staff/count ...Sure don't they have some of 'Big Business's ' independent auditors ' on board?

Chancer3001

I think they mean votes would all be collected in school? Still sent to head office?

Rather than everybody sending them in individually

evolving_doors

2011abc wrote: »

As there's no questions around the integrity of the head office staff/count ...Sure don't they have some of 'Big Business's ' independent auditors ' on board?

Let it go 2011abc... let it gooooo.

MrJones1973

I trust the vote-sure the ballots are opened by any tom dick or harry but then transferred to a secure location. Nothing can happen. Nothing The auditors can only stand over the secure room. Once they are there.

spurious

For TUI, the votes are sent straight to the auditors.

2011abc

Armelodie wrote: »

Let it go 2011abc... let it gooooo.

...can't hold it back anymore ....

mirrorwall14

2011abc wrote: »

...can't hold it back anymore ....

Man I resisted so hard not to post that....

katydid

acequion wrote: »

"A bit" of pressure! Do you not understand that second level teachers are under constant pressure?

Of course I do. Just like I am. And the pressure on me is from students I see every day, adults whose future depends on grades they get from my corrections of their work.

Pressure is part of the job. If you can't handle it, you shouldn't be teaching.

Inspector Coptoor

katydid wrote: »

Of course I do. Just like I am. And the pressure on me is from students I see every day, adults whose future depends on grades they get from my corrections of their work.

Pressure is part of the job. If you can't handle it, you shouldn't be teaching.

I've no problem with pressure from Marking papers, which I do for the SEC as an anonymous marker.
When marking, you are giving a grade and ticking and underlining, that's it, as you have a very tight marking scheme to follow.

Correcting the work of a student you personally teach is very different, you are not just grading, you are correcting mistakes and annotating as you are on the students' side.

And THIS is why th VAST majority of teachers (and parents) are against teachers marking for state certification.

katydid

acequion wrote: »

@katydid,does that not prove my point about your "bit" of pressure? Do you think we should have to endure yet more pressure from parents on top of all that? Just how much pressure can any one person take??

As soon as the parents realise there's no point in putting pressure on teachers, they will give up. You might have a period before it sinks in, but that goes with the territory. I have it every year for a couple of months every year with a new bunch of students until they realise that there's no point.

katydid

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Correcting the work of a student you personally teach is very different, you are not just grading, you are correcting mistakes and annotating as you are on the students' side.

.

Of course you are on the student's side, and you can correct and annotate so they can get feedback and learn from their mistakes, but that doesn't mean that you give them a higher mark! You give them the mark they deserve.

Inspector Coptoor

katydid wrote: »

Of course you are on the student's side, and you can correct and annotate so they can get feedback and learn from their mistakes, but that doesn't mean that you give them a higher mark! You give them the mark they deserve.

And I have no issue with that, AS LONG as it's NOT for state certification.

I've often given kids 89.5% or 79.5% and they've missed a grade boundary, when asked why I didn't bump them up, the answer is always, you didn't get the next grade, you got what you deserved.

I see where you are coming from, but that's not a bridge we are willing to cross.

katydid

2011abc wrote: »

Just for you Katy:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-17130934

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-22367914

Maybe you think a certain 'attrition rate' is acceptable ? How about the factories in China where workers throw themselves off the rooftops by the dozen? All over 'a bit of pressure'?

And why should you think that we should do what they do in the UK? There is huge pressure on schools over there to pass exams because their funding is dependent on results. I know teachers over there who finish projects for their students because their jobs depend on whether or not their students pass.

Our schools are no dependent on exams for funding and the day they are would be a disaster for Irish education.

As I've said all along, with the proper assessment procedures, proper support from the department in the form of external assessment and proper support from management, there is no reason that it should in any way be like the UK system.

Inspector Coptoor

But WHY should it happen at all?

katydid

acequion wrote: »

Shocking stuff! But there is no doubt that excessive pressure is extremely dangerous and many people cannot handle it.I,personally,could not handle excessive pressure. I need to feel calm and cope-worthy to do a good job and I chose teaching for the quality of life and a decent work /life balance. That is exactly what is being eroded with this insidious "bit of pressure" attitude and that is why we must hold firm in our present stance.

So you are incapable of devising an assessment system that is transparent, and that you can stand over in the face of questions from parents or even from students themselves?

katydid

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Currently CSPE projects get done in a rough draft in class, then the teacher collects up the rough draft, changes what needs to be changed, corrects them, gives them back and the kids copy/paste the corrected version into the official booklet.

New proposal stops the copy/paste bit

That is shocking to read. If CA does come in at second level, there is a hell of a a lot of training needed, and some reality checks to remind teachers what their role is. I'm sure most teachers are professionals, but people like that are a disgrace to their profession.

rainbowtrout

katydid wrote: »

And why should you think that we should do what they do in the UK? There is huge pressure on schools over there to pass exams because their funding is dependent on results. I know teachers over there who finish projects for their students because their jobs depend on whether or not their students pass.

Our schools are no dependent on exams for funding and the day they are would be a disaster for Irish education.

As I've said all along, with the proper assessment procedures, proper support from the department in the form of external assessment and proper support from management, there is no reason that it should in any way be like the UK system.

We might not be dependent on funding, but if there are two schools in the town and school A are consistently getting good results and school B are consistently getting poor to average results where do you think parents will want to send their children. School B might be assessing fairly and School A might be taking the piss and giving easy grades. That's not going to be clear to the outsider.

I've seen plenty of teachers over the years give out a rake of A grades to students who no more deserved an A than the dog on the street. Landing in a school to do assessment and being presented with 20+ A grades in a class of 24 is laughable when some of the students tell you they are doing Ordinary Level and clearly haven't a notion of what they are talking about. I've met teachers who have given full marks for a project because a student submitted a project - just for submission!! Nothing to do with the quality of what was presented.

I'd be very slow to let any of those teachers loose on correcting their own students work and giving the final grade when they won't grade properly even when they know they are being externally assessed.

If teachers end up grading their own students I expect project grades to skyrocket overnight, and effectively the final grade will be determined by the written exam which is where we are currently.

katydid

happywithlife wrote: »

I agree. Plenty will end up correcting the rough draft first AND then correcting the final document. So twice the work !

I don't correct rough drafts. I spend a couple of classes, while the students work on their projects or do other work, where I sit down with each student and point out where they are going wrong. It is up to the student to take the work away and improve it before final submission.

Giving them feedback as they go along is important, but you are not helping the student by correcting the work for them. The resulting mark is yours, not theirs, in that case.

katydid

spurious wrote: »

For TUI, the votes are sent straight to the auditors.

Well, our school rep collects them from members and posts them in bulk. If people want to, they can post them themselves, but most people find it handier to hand them back to the rep.

katydid

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

And I have no issue with that, AS LONG as it's NOT for state certification.

I've often given kids 89.5% or 79.5% and they've missed a grade boundary, when asked why I didn't bump them up, the answer is always, you didn't get the next grade, you got what you deserved.

I see where you are coming from, but that's not a bridge we are willing to cross.

What's the problem with it being for state certification? Why are you not prepared to stand over the mark you give? Your colleagues in FE do. FETAC grades are just as important to students as LC grades, if they are needed for third level.

katydid

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

But WHY should it happen at all?

Because giving those students who find end of year exams a chance is a good thing. That's why.

rainbowtrout

katydid wrote: »

What's the problem with it being for state certification? Why are you not prepared to stand over the mark you give? Your colleagues in FE do. FETAC grades are just as important to students as LC grades, if they are needed for third level.

There is external monitoring in FETAC and standardised marking schemes. It's a different beast. You're also not dealing with parents by and large. It's a one year course, often with a lot of students who are strangers, 17+ years of age. Students are told at the start that they are responsible for their own learning etc, students from 12-15 don't have that same capability and have a different relationship with their teachers.

rainbowtrout

katydid wrote: »

Because giving those students who find end of year exams a chance is a good thing. That's why.

And why can't all of these projects be corrected anonymously along with the JC papers? LCVP currently has a portfolio which is mainly typed documents but can also include a recorded interview. They are packed off for correction along with the written exams. Why can't JC be done like this? It's working for LCVP, so it' can't be too hard to adapt JC in the same way. The JC Science coursework is currently sent away with the written papers for correction. So it does seem to come back to cost saving by the DES.

katydid

rainbowtrout wrote: »

We might not be dependent on funding, but if there are two schools in the town and school A are consistently getting good results and school B are consistently getting poor to average results where do you think parents will want to send their children. School B might be assessing fairly and School A might be taking the piss and giving easy grades. That's not going to be clear to the outsider.

I've seen plenty of teachers over the years give out a rake of A grades to students who no more deserved an A than the dog on the street. Landing in a school to do assessment and being presented with 20+ A grades in a class of 24 is laughable when some of the students tell you they are doing Ordinary Level and clearly haven't a notion of what they are talking about. I've met teachers who have given full marks for a project because a student submitted a project - just for submission!! Nothing to do with the quality of what was presented.

I'd be very slow to let any of those teachers loose on correcting their own students work and giving the final grade when they won't grade properly even when they know they are being externally assessed.

If teachers end up grading their own students I expect project grades to skyrocket overnight, and effectively the final grade will be determined by the written exam which is where we are currently.

If the system is devised and carried out properly, externally moderated and supported by management, there is no reason why grades should differ substantially between schools.

If teachers grade their own students and grades rocket overnight, then serious questions would need to be asked of those teachers, as professional misconduct would have been going on. What you are saying is that there are lots of Irish teachers who are even now not doing their job properly.

Inspector Coptoor

katydid wrote: »

Because giving those students who find end of year exams a chance is a good thing. That's why.

Can't that be marked at the end of the exam period by the same marker who marks their terminal exam, like is currently done in Junior cert science?

Just to be clear, I'm all for continuous assessment, I just don't want to mark ANY of my own students' work, ever

katydid

rainbowtrout wrote: »

There is external monitoring in FETAC and standardised marking schemes. It's a different beast. You're also not dealing with parents by and large. It's a one year course, often with a lot of students who are strangers, 17+ years of age. Students are told at the start that they are responsible for their own learning etc, students from 12-15 don't have that same capability and have a different relationship with their teachers.

Why can't you have standarised marking schemes and external monitoring at second level?

Whether you're dealing with parents or students (if you're a teacher you know that students are not "strangers", no matter how long you work with them - you care about them and what they hope and aspire to) the bottom line is that if the assessment procedure is transparent and well moderated, there will be no pressure as soon as they (parents/students) realise there is no point in putting on pressure. It's that simple.

Just because students don't have a particular relationship with their teacher now doesn't mean they couldn't have in the future. I've worked in a system which operates CA, in Germany, and the students there have been doing CA since primary school. They know that their teachers will be grading them, and they just accept it. It's part of the teacher/pupil relationship.