Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert **See Mod Warning Post #1**

Benicetomonty

Walshe still manages to make us look better than King.

rainbowtrout

Ya and his final comment was 'Teachers don't get to decide what is taught in schools'.


HELLO, ED!!!! We are not trying to dictate what is taught, we are concerned about how what is taught will be assessed.

:mad:

evolving_doors

Well I suppose we can take solace in the fact that if they are wheeling him out then they are pretty stuck for anyone of interest.

Don't get me wrong but Ed is quite revered for building up UL as one of the first Universities since the state was founded. But leaving that aside, I don't really see what he has to offer the Irish secondary education system other than complete contempt.

amacca

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

He as too busy leaning back in chair to look down his nose at McGabhann and King.
He's a clown, extolling the virtues of Finland and its education system while not mentioning how much they spend on their system

I don't think he'd be in favour of Finnish style renumeration - in line with buying power of the wages that is…or the various other benefits of working in their system

They love all these ideas but they are not willing to pay a fair price for them or implement what is necessary to give the working conditions that would make it work

I fail to see how we can't achieve this "richness" with project and portfolio work etc that is assessed externally…..how exactly are these experiences "richer" for a student if their teacher grades their project/portfolio

the more I think about it the more the whole thing stinks afaic wouldn't there always be a suspicion amongst students/parents they were hard done by/favouritism no matter how objective we were…..nevermind unfair influence etc

why can't all these rich learning experiences be assessed externally?…it is inherently fairer while allowing other skills and competencies to be taken into account for assessment purposes which seems to be what the minister wants (or at least what she is claiming…..what she really wants is savings at the expense of a relatively fair system - fairer than it will be if this goes ahead at least)

If they succeed in hoodwinking us/parents etc they will cheapen the education system imo

amacca

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ya and his final comment was 'Teachers don't get to decide what is taught in schools'.


HELLO, ED!!!! We are not trying to dictate what is taught, we are concerned about how what is taught will be assessed.

:mad:

I take your point entirely and slightly on a tangent but I actually think we should have a say in what is taught.

I feel most teachers would have come up with a superior syllabus to the new science-lite one thats been mentioned here recently at any rate.

evolving_doors

amacca wrote: »

I don't think he'd be in favour of Finnish style renumeration - in line with buying power of the wages that is…or the various other benefits of working in their system

They love all these ideas but they are not willing to pay a fair price for them or implement what is necessary to give the working conditions that would make it work

I fail to see how we can't achieve this "richness" with project and portfolio work etc that is assessed externally…..how exactly are these experiences "richer" for a student if their teacher grades their project/portfolio

the more I think about it the more the whole thing stinks afaic wouldn't there always be a suspicion amongst students/parents they were hard done by/favouritism no matter how objective we were…..nevermind unfair influence etc

why can't all these rich learning experiences be assessed externally?…it is inherently fairer while allowing other skills and competencies to be taken into account for assessment purposes which seems to be what the minister wants (or at least what she is claiming…..what she really wants is savings at the expense of a relatively fair system - fairer than it will be if this goes ahead at least)

If they succeed in hoodwinking us/parents etc they will cheapen the education system imo

At least the students are on our side... over the last week or so a good few have asked what the strike was about (some mutterings of parents talking about teachers pay/3months holidays so i took a little time out of teaching to explore the issue).

Upshot... "Teachers from this school correcting our Junior Cert????? Now wayyyyyy I'd vote for that". This was the response of ALL of the students i spoke to (I put it to them as unbiased as I could, even tried making it sound like a positive thing!!). Main point being... "teacher x really hates me so I know they are going to give me bad marks anyway."

rainbowtrout

amacca wrote: »

I take your point entirely and slightly on a tangent but I actually think we should have a say in what is taught.

I feel most teachers would have come up with a superior syllabus to the new science-lite one thats been mentioned here recently at any rate.

Oh I totally agree, I'm hugely opposed to the content (or rather, lack of content) in the proposed science syllabus, but in keeping with the thread and what the strike is about, I still think Ed Walsh is an idiot.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Oh I totally agree, I'm hugely opposed to the content (or rather, lack of content) in the proposed science syllabus, but in keeping with the thread and what the strike is about, I still think Ed Walsh is an idiot.

Speaking of which anyone hear from eddie hobbs yet? Sept last year he said the reason why Asti rejected Haddington road was because of PMT !

eyescreamcone

But isn't the strike about money really.

It's about teachers losing money by not correcting junior cert papers + the extra (unpaid) work in correcting summer 3rd year exams.

No sympathy here.
Maybe if ye went on strike to abolish the employment contract inequalities present in the religious schools ye might garner more public sympathy.

man_no_plan

eyescreamcone wrote: »

But isn't the strike about money really.

It's about teachers losing money by not correcting junior cert papers + the extra (unpaid) work in correcting summer 3rd year exams.

No sympathy here.
Maybe if ye went on strike to abolish the employment contract inequalities present in the religious schools ye might garner more public sympathy.

Stop the presses!!

Teachers aren't in favour of doing even more work for free!!

That's one part of it. The main part is opposition to marking our students for certification together with resourcing, educational standards and workload issues.

I'm going in for my picket duty shortly, its about time we stop up for something.

MrJones1973

If any ASTI member crosses the picket-he or she should be reported to Head office. Doesnt matter if they are management or not. The web site is pretty clear. If you dont report them-dont complain about them.

man_no_plan

Our school I closed completely. ETB said teachers had to make themselves available but didn't ask the to cross the picket. Same option was given to office and ancillary staff who took the option.

I agree that its fair that if teachers are off cleaners should be the same. It takes the difficult decision about crossing the picket away and gives them a free ride. They will benefit from any gains,we make but wont put their shoulder to the wheel.

rainbowtrout

eyescreamcone wrote: »

But isn't the strike about money really.

It's about teachers losing money by not correcting junior cert papers + the extra (unpaid) work in correcting summer 3rd year exams.

No sympathy here.
Maybe if ye went on strike to abolish the employment contract inequalities present in the religious schools ye might garner more public sympathy.

Actually it isn't. Proportionally very few teachers correct for the SEC in the summer. I'm the only one that does it in my school.

I can't speak for all teachers but loss of earnings around junior cert correction has never come up in conversation in my staffroom over the last few weeks since the strike was announced

chippers

Fair play to all the teachers out on strike today. External assessment and the anonymity of each and every student regardless of who they are or where they are from is an excellent aspect of our education system. I hope you win the battle!

acequion

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Actually it isn't. Proportionally very few teachers correct for the SEC in the summer. I'm the only one that does it in my school.

I can't speak for all teachers but loss of earnings around junior cert correction has never come up in conversation in my staffroom over the last few weeks since the strike was announced

Don't feed them rainbowtrout! I've reported that post.

eyescreamcone

acequion wrote: »

Don't feed them rainbowtrout! I've reported that post.

It's all about the money.

Nobody is buying the charade that teachers are striking to retain standards in education.
If you really don't want to correct your own student's exams (like you do in four of six years at the moment) why didn't you suggest that you'd swap scripts with another school in your area.

It's ALL about money. It's always about money.

Feel free to report me to the principal

solerina

eyescreamcone wrote: »

It's all about the money.

Nobody is buying the charade that teachers are striking to retain standards in education.
If you really don't want to correct your own student's exams (like you do in four of six years at the moment) why didn't you suggest that you'd swap scripts with another school in your area.

It's ALL about money. It's always about money.

Feel free to report me to the principal

WRONG
Out of almost 30 teachers in my school ONLY ONE corrects exams in the Summer.....and she corrects Leaving Cert, so NONE correct Junior Cert !! This has nothing to do with money

spurious

eyescreamcone wrote: »

It's all about the money.

Nobody is buying the charade that teachers are striking to retain standards in education.
If you really don't want to correct your own student's exams (like you do in four of six years at the moment) why didn't you suggest that you'd swap scripts with another school in your area.

It's ALL about money. It's always about money.

Feel free to report me to the principal

Thin line between this and trolling, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt, for now.
You seem quite ill-informed about the system (see your 'religious schools' post). Are you a teacher?

eagle eye

chippers wrote: »

Fair play to all the teachers out on strike today. External assessment and the anonymity of each and every student regardless of who they are or where they are from is an excellent aspect of our education system. I hope you win the battle!

Well said sir.

And eveybody who has kids and wants a fair edcuational system should be supporting the teachers.

Inspector Coptoor

eyescreamcone wrote: »

It's all about the money.

Nobody is buying the charade that teachers are striking to retain standards in education.
If you really don't want to correct your own student's exams (like you do in four of six years at the moment) why didn't you suggest that you'd swap scripts with another school in your area.

It's ALL about money. It's always about money.

Feel free to report me to the principal

It's not about money at all.
I don't want to correct my students work, nor do I want to correct any other students work in such small batches as 25-30 scripts.

The reason the marking process in July takes 26 days is because each contracted examiner for the SEC marks 350-400 papers depending on the subject, level and number of papers.

The examiners attend 2 day marking conferences and have plenty of support from advising examiners when carrying out this very important and extremely onerous work.

It's very hard to explain I someone who hasn't done marking for the SEC just how difficult it is.

And as for the money side of it, pull the other one.
I "earned" €4500 Marking LC papers this summer and received €1900 net.

The main reason I mark papers is because it is fantastic CPD and makes me a better teacher by helping me identify pitfalls and issues learners have with parts of the syllabus

eyescreamcone

spurious wrote: »

Thin line between this and trolling, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt, for now.
You seem quite ill-informed about the system (see your 'religious schools' post). Are you a teacher?

Do you have to be a teacher to post here?

My point was that teachers are quite happy to accept that their job is the only job in the country that doesn't have to comply with equality in the workplace rules. Not an issue worth striking about?

However, the issue that they chose to go on strike about smells totally of a money issue to me, and not as worthy of going on strike as the above issue.

spurious

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Do you have to be a teacher to post here?

My point was that teachers are quite happy to accept that their job is the only job in the country that doesn't have to comply with equality in the workplace rules. Not an issue worth striking about?

However, the issue that they chose to go on strike about smells totally of a money issue to me, and not as worthy of going on strike as the above issue.

It's not about the money as others have pointed out. No, of course you do not have to be a teacher to post here, but it's usually fairly obvious when someone isn't.

The two-tiered situation which was brought about by the savaging of the public service (and so affects many other lines of work, not just teaching) is a different issue altogether and while not directly related to this dispute may partly be responsible for the strike action in a 'last straw' context.

eyescreamcone

You still don't seem to be getting my point.
Schools are allowed to discriminate based on religion, sexual orientation or marital status. No where else is this allowed. But the teachers tolerate and accept this "criminal" behaviour. Surely this is more worthy of a fight than the "supposed cause" of today's strike!!!

aunt aggie

eyescreamcone wrote: »

It's all about the money.

Nobody is buying the charade that teachers are striking to retain standards in education.
If you really don't want to correct your own student's exams (like you do in four of six years at the moment) why didn't you suggest that you'd swap scripts with another school in your area.

It's ALL about money. It's always about money.

Feel free to report me to the principal

That's very childish.

It is about money. It's about the government saving money at the expense of your child's education. They don't seem to care that there is no way for teachers to assess their own students work in a fair, transparent and consistent manner.

You don't seem to think much of teachers or the education system but Ireland has an international reputation to maintain. In the most recent international league tables, Irish students achieved above the EU average in reading, maths and sciences. That hasn't happened because teachers are lazy and money grubbing.

MrJones1973

What equality in the workplace are you talking about exactly?? You are entitled to your rather cynical view about money but it aint about that. I wont bother dealing with your opinion because even the mainstream media accept that and the line "Its always about the money" while cute, is vacuous.

Chancer3001

Are teachers ok with correcting a different schools papers?

School a swaps with school b?

That can be anonymous

MrJones1973

eyescreamcone wrote: »

You still don't seem to be getting my point.
Schools are allowed to discriminate based on religion, sexual orientation or marital status. No where else is this allowed. But the teachers tolerate and accept this "criminal" behaviour. Surely this is more worthy of a fight than the "supposed cause" of today's strike!!!

Pure bull. Except for Religion- Protestant schools can give preference to their own . Catholic schools dont care anymore unless you are teaching Religion. They wont ask. As for Orientation-how exactly would that arise in an interview??

amacca

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Are teachers ok with correcting a different schools papers?

School a swaps with school b?

That can be anonymous

If it was truly anonymous (I'm talking iron clad guarantee here) and everyone shared the load equally then perhaps…+ other concessions would need to be granted imo

aunt aggie

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Are teachers ok with correcting a different schools papers?

School a swaps with school b?

That can be anonymous

That may be suggested and it actually does happen when teachers mark their own students mock papers. But it still doesn't allow for enough oversight or consistency. At the minute anyone assessing exam papers has to send samples of their marking back to SEC for review and correction. You're not going to have over 25000 teachers having their marking monitored in this way. It will allow errors to slip through the cracks and students may start to say things like Teacher X marks us easier than Teacher Y. Could lead to a lot of tension at parent teacher meetings and a lack of trust between students and teachers.

rainbowtrout

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Are teachers ok with correcting a different schools papers?

School a swaps with school b?

That can be anonymous

No, I'm not. There still isn't a national standard being set or checks being done by external examiners.


Here's a basic science question: Iodine turns blue black in the presence of starch.

A student is asked on their JC Science paper for the colour change for this scenario.

Student A writes blue
Student B writes black
Student C writes blue black
Student D writes purple


Which answer is correct? Are all going to be considered correct? It might seem like a simple question with a simple answer, but the bottom line is that without a marking scheme some teachers would only accept blue black and would probably be considered harsh markers. Some would accept all four answers above and be considered easy markers. Even with a marking scheme which only says blue black there will be some teachers who will accept all four answers above. Whichever teacher marks your paper could have a real effect on your overall grade. That's why we have marking conferences with agreed marking schemes for JC and LC exams currently. It's also why there could be a vast discrepancy between the way teachers around the country mark the same paper and assess their own classes, leaving out their personal relationship with the student and having taught them for three years etc. That example is a very simple one, but consider that effect on the way all questions are marked on a paper and there could be a very real difference in the grades students receive in two different schools giving similar answers.

The Department of Education is proposing that there be no external assessment or monitoring for the 40% continuous assessment. So a student could achieve a C in one school in their project and an A in another depending on who is marking it. I don't see how that is fair. That's not even taking into account the anonymity aspect of it.

eyescreamcone

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Pure bull. Except for Religion- Protestant schools can give preference to their own . Catholic schools dont care anymore unless you are teaching Religion. They wont ask. As for Orientation-how exactly would that arise in an interview??

Do schools have a legal out from the normal equality at work legislation?
Yes they do!
Whether they use it is irrelevant!

amacca

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No, I'm not. There still isn't a national standard being set or checks being done by external examiners.


Here's a basic science question: Iodine turns blue black in the presence of starch.

A student is asked on their JC Science paper for the colour change for this scenario.

Student A writes blue
Student B writes black
Student C writes blue black
Student D writes purple


Which answer is correct? Are all going to be considered correct? It might seem like a simple question with a simple answer, but the bottom line is that without a marking scheme some teachers would only accept blue black and would probably be considered harsh markers. Some would accept all four answers above and be considered easy markers. Even with a marking scheme which only says blue black there will be some teachers who will accept all four answers above. Whichever teacher marks your paper could have a real effect on your overall grade. That's why we have marking conferences with agreed marking schemes for JC and LC exams currently. It's also why there could be a vast discrepancy between the way teachers around the country mark the same paper and assess their own classes, leaving out their personal relationship with the student and having taught them for three years etc. That example is a very simple one, but consider that effect on the way all questions are marked on a paper and there could be a very real difference in the grades students receive in two different schools giving similar answers.

The Department of Education is proposing that there be no external assessment or monitoring for the 40% continuous assessment. So a student could achieve a C in one school in their project and an A in another depending on who is marking it. I don't see how that is fair. That's not even taking into account the anonymity aspect of it.

After reading this I have to agree 100% despite what I posted earlier - this thing has the potential to be a huge mess. I'm glad we are out against it and I hope people will actually start to question why the minister really wants this change.

I think if they read what you wrote above its fairly clear what just one of the problems with it is.

MrJones1973

The swapping idea is a non runner, because ,is that not what happens now-de facto with SEC.? But they are paid?

implausible

rainbowtrout wrote: »

The Department of Education is proposing that there be no external assessment or monitoring for the 40% continuous assessment. So a student could achieve a C in one school in their project and an A in another depending on who is marking it. I don't see how that is fair. That's not even taking into account the anonymity aspect of it.

The Dept's proposal was external moderation of 10-15% of school-based assessment, wasn't it?

spurious

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

The swapping idea is a non runner, because ,is that not what happens now-de facto with SEC.? But they are paid?

On a very large scale, I suppose it is, except the correctors are 'swapping' with maybe 20 schools of non-correctors. They are paid and then they are also checked, and not checked just once, but multiple times during the correcting process.

Likewise in the subjects where school-based marking happens at the moment, the school-issued marks are checked by visiting external monitors to ensure a national standard.

km79

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

The swapping idea is a non runner, because ,is that not what happens now-de facto with SEC.? But they are paid?

who will be responsible for transport of papers from school A to school B?
what happens if a paper goes missing during transportation?
who pays for cost of transportation if schools are miles apart for example in Donegal ?
It really really gets on my nerves when people come in with this statements about how they would do things so easily without ANY thought whatsoever put into it.
Everyone knows better than the people who actually do the job !!!!
I've said it before I'll say it again .......do people go onto other professions forums telling them how badly they do their job and what a simple job it is really......or is it just this one ?

mirrorwall14

On top of the previous post, what about discrepancies in numbers? I have 18 students, the other school has 30 so I get double the work? What if I have three/four JC classes and other colleagues have none? What if I haven't taught my second subject in years, do I still correct it?

amacca

km79 wrote: »

who will be responsible for transport of papers from school A to school B?
what happens if a paper goes missing during transportation?
who pays for cost of transportation if schools are miles apart for example in Donegal ?
It really really gets on my nerves when people come in with this statements about how they would do things so easily without ANY thought whatsoever put into it.
Everyone knows better than the people who actually do the job !!!!
I've said it before I'll say it again .......do people go onto other professions forums telling them how badly they do their job and what a simple job it is really......or is it just this one ?

Get used to it…everyone thinks because they went to school they know what its like to work in one or run one and the believe they could do it better.

It would be nice if they had to under the conditions that currently exist…..I have a feeling they just might change their mind.

rainbowtrout

implausible wrote: »

The Dept's proposal was external moderation of 10-15% of school-based assessment, wasn't it?

I still don't think that cuts it if there is no national standard to begin with.

Chancer3001

Ok so back to swapping papers between school a and b...

That iodine answer doesn't make sense because all they would need is to issue every teacher with a marking scheme.

Accept the following answers....

Do not accept these answers.....


As for the transport costs etc....don't you realise those transport costs are already paid by the state?

A rural school in Donegal for example, their papers are all packaged up and sent off to wherever to be corrected.

It'd cost less to transport them to the next school over.

And who's responsible if it's lost? I assume the same person who is responsible if a paper gets lost at the moment!

mirrorwall14

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Ok so back to swapping papers between school a and b...

That iodine answer doesn't make sense because all they would need is to issue every teacher with a marking scheme.

Accept the following answers....

Do not accept these answers.....

Addressing your first point:
Except that a marking scheme alone has never been deemed sufficient to correct a state exam. There is a marking conference which all correctors must attend where every single line of the marking scheme is gone through to determine exactly what is and isn't acceptable.

And exactly how does "Accept the following answers" work in a subjective exam such as languages?

aunt aggie

This may be a silly comment and I hope someone will correct me if it is...

AS FAR AS I KNOW there is no information on what form this continuous assessment will take or who will set it. It could be set by teachers or it could be a general assignment which could be interpreted in different ways by different students/teachers. Both scenarios mean that a national marking scheme is impossible.

For example, in history
Choose a figure from this period. Research and discuss his/her social and/or political impact. (You could literally get an essay on anything from Barbie to Caesar!!)

The whole point of continuous assessment projects is that students are working independently and they should choose a focus that is suitable to their level and interests. Many teachers incorporate similar tasks already but its a form of assessment to improve students understanding and progress their learning. Its very difficult to mark consistently. In fact, I have seen two different teachers interpret a department wide statistics task completely differently. One put the emphasis on asking a range of questions and displaying data on different graphs. Another focused students on averages and comparing results that way. Which project would have more merit if assessed for examination?

Actually has anyone experience of marking coursework which is currently part of the LC? What controls are in place to ensure consistent marking? Is it the same as for exam papers?

seavill

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Do schools have a legal out from the normal equality at work legislation?
Yes they do!
Whether they use it is irrelevant!

This has got nothing to do with the topic or the strike. Start a new thread stop dragging this one off topic

seavill

I was listening to jan on Mat cooper followed by Union , students Union , parents Union and of course that gob****e Walsh.

She and others kept saying how it was an opportunity for the teacher to work closely with their students and give them real feedback.
I was so annoyed she wasn't pulled up on this. I give my students feedback every day to improve their work.
Do they think we don't do this already?? Stupid stuff

eyescreamcone

seavill wrote: »

This has got nothing to do with the topic or the strike. Start a new thread stop dragging this one off topic

It's relevant because the teachers are only pretending to fight from the moral high ground. When really it's all about the money, and the public are well aware of this

Chancer3001

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Addressing your first point:
Except that a marking scheme alone has never been deemed sufficient to correct a state exam. There is a marking conference which all correctors must attend where every single line of the marking scheme is gone through to determine exactly what is and isn't acceptable.

And exactly how does "Accept the following answers" work in a subjective exam such as languages?

That doesn't explain anything.

A subjective exam is exactly that, subjective. So give some guidelines and then leave the rest to the correcting teacher to decide

eyescreamcone

amacca wrote: »

It would be nice if they had to under the conditions that currently exist…..I have a feeling they just might change their mind.

Most people would jump at the chance to be a permanent unsackable teacher with a gold star pension - all paid for by those less well off in the private sector.

Teachers deserve zero sympathy for their imagined grievances.

MacGyver007

km79 wrote: »

who will be responsible for transport of papers from school A to school B?
what happens if a paper goes missing during transportation?
who pays for cost of transportation if schools are miles apart for example in Donegal ?
It really really gets on my nerves when people come in with this statements about how they would do things so easily without ANY thought whatsoever put into it.
Everyone knows better than the people who actually do the job !!!!
I've said it before I'll say it again .......do people go onto other professions forums telling them how badly they do their job and what a simple job it is really......or is it just this one ?

Well said.

spurious

eyescreamcone banned for a week for breach of forum charter.

rainbowtrout

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Ok so back to swapping papers between school a and b...

That iodine answer doesn't make sense because all they would need is to issue every teacher with a marking scheme.

Accept the following answers....

Do not accept these answers.....


As for the transport costs etc....don't you realise those transport costs are already paid by the state?

A rural school in Donegal for example, their papers are all packaged up and sent off to wherever to be corrected.

It'd cost less to transport them to the next school over.

And who's responsible if it's lost? I assume the same person who is responsible if a paper gets lost at the moment!

It might actually sound that simple, but it's not. Because let's say you have someone setting the paper at the Dept and the marking scheme and it's sent out to schools. That's one person's interpretation of the paper, another teacher and students will come up with alternative answers. Some will be valid.

So say you take my simple question again about iodine and it's written in the marking scheme that the four answers I've given are acceptable and then you come across a paper where the student writes 'navy'. Do you accept it? It's not in the scheme, so that would mean no, but navy is pretty much blue - black and also a far better description of the actual colour of the iodine than purple, so some would say yes, and I can guarantee you, that no matter how many answers you think of for the scheme and more can be added at the conference and agreed upon, you will still see more valid answers that no one thought of once they start correcting. This is where the role of advisors come in where a ruling can be made but also all correctors can be notified of changes.