Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert **See Mod Warning Post #1**

implausible

The multiple interpretations of exam questions are irrelevant as the DES proposals are to still have the SEC mark the final exam.

What is relevant is how you can have a consistent marking scheme across the country for project work and coursework. I know LC History examiners mark the students' project, so there are obviously guidelines for it. How the DES is going to roll out nationwide training to teachers who have to do this that's as good as a marking conference delivered to those who do it for pay is beyond me. They really haven't thought it through.

rainbowtrout

implausible wrote: »

The multiple interpretations of exam questions are irrelevant as the DES proposals are to still have the SEC mark the final exam.

What is relevant is how you can have a consistent marking scheme across the country for project work and coursework. I know LC History examiners mark the students' project, so there are obviously guidelines for it. How the DES is going to roll out nationwide training to teachers who have to do this that's as good as a marking conference delivered to those who do it for pay is beyond me. They really haven't thought it through.

To be honest, you're just splitting hairs. It's a similar process and provided as an example of why it's not so simple as just getting teachers to mark their own students and it will all be grand.

I could have made the same point but used JC Science Coursework B as the example and it would have amounted to the same thing.

acequion

Having to tolerate the antipathy of the ignorant on the evening of a strike when emotions are running high is very hard to take,especially when much milder non teacher posters have agreed to sit out this thread.

However,while this strike has nothing whatsoever to do with teacher pay,let's not pretend that it has nothing to do with job conditions.Personally I am striking firstly to preserve the integrity that 100% assessment brings to an exam result. But secondly because the extra work the minister's plan entails is excessive and teachers are already maxed out as it is. Even if some people have the constitution of a trojan horse and are willing to work around the clock,the demands on teachers are reaching a level at which effective work will no longer be possible. It will be quantity over quality and will lead to bad feeling,high stress and burn out.

So,all this rubbish about swapping schools is a non runner for me,even more so than marking my own. Let's not forget that all this is yet another bad mistake by a bad Government, as obsessed with saving money as the last crowd were with spending it. I'm heartily sick of the constant hits and digging my heels in further!

implausible

rainbowtrout wrote: »

To be honest, you're just splitting hairs. It's a similar process and provided as an example of why it's not so simple as just getting teachers to mark their own students and it will all be grand.

I could have made the same point but used JC Science Coursework B as the example and it would have amounted to the same thing.

Not splitting hairs, just pointing out that it's not exam work that we could be correcting.

How does the marking currently work for the coursework? Is there a set structure to it and you mark each heading?

I know how indepth the marking conferences go, to me it seems impossible that an inservice delivered to all teachers of a subject can even approach that, unless the coursework is very prescriptive i.e. a short story of a particular length about a particular theme or an analysis of a poem with set headings and criteria to use. It will be a logistical nightmare and they have not thought it through.

In England they have moderation meetings between schools, there is no way we can give any more time, never mind to something as unwelcome as this.

Any talks that come out of this strike will have to provide answers to these concerns, answers which I don't think the DES has.

mirrorwall14

Well actually in both my subjects we have no idea what the 40% will consist of so it could well be exam work?

Beaner1

Come on now. This is a useless state exam that is getting relegated to something of far less importance mainly to save a bit of money. Teachers are striking because the saved money is coming out of their pockets as they would typically be paid for marking these exams.

spurious

Beaner1 wrote: »

Come on now. This is a useless state exam that is getting relegated to something of far less importance mainly to save a bit of money. Teachers are striking because the saved money is coming out of their pockets as they would typically be paid for marking these exams.

Remarkable how a couple of hundred teachers (those involved in marking exams) got the whole cohort to strike.

Teacher-bashing nonsense not welcome here, thanks. Please read the forum charter.

amacca

implausible wrote: »

Any talks that come out of this strike will have to provide answers to these concerns, answers which I don't think the DES has.

Thats what it seems like to me (as poorly thought out as recent "reforms")…but are they really that clueless?

Even if you look at it purely through a saving money lens it doesn't seem to make a hell of a lot of sense (could end up costing more money in the long run imo)

seavill

implausible wrote: »

Not splitting hairs, just pointing out that it's not exam work that we could be correcting.

How does the marking currently work for the coursework? Is there a set structure to it and you mark each heading?

I know how indepth the marking conferences go, to me it seems impossible that an inservice delivered to all teachers of a subject can even approach that, unless the coursework is very prescriptive i.e. a short story of a particular length about a particular theme or an analysis of a poem with set headings and criteria to use. It will be a logistical nightmare and they have not thought it through.

In England they have moderation meetings between schools, there is no way we can give any more time, never mind to something as unwelcome as this.

Any talks that come out of this strike will have to provide answers to these concerns, answers which I don't think the DES has.

I currently correct my own Construction Studies class (as do all other teachers) leaving cert project work 25% overall including the booklet and the artefact itself.
Then an external assessor comes in and checks the grades (however we are never told if our marks are right or wrong but thats a whole other thread)

Anyway back on point, We used to have a sheet to mark with 5 sections 30 marks each. Each of the 5 sections has 3 subsections, however its up to me how I split up the 30 marks between the 3 subsections, I know myself and the teacher I replaced never agreed on how the 30 marks for each should be split, he would say 10,10,10 I would say 8 12 10, for example.

However last year therer was a departure from the norm for othe last 30 years (without telling us) and they just sent out one master sheet with the 5 headings on it with no subsections, so some poor teacher just out of college woudln't know how the marks used to be broken down, now we just have 5 headings worth 30 each. Now 30 marks is a massive number to split over 3 words. For example, one might be Design & Planning. 30 marks. How do I split that compare to you? One lad made a coffee table, another made a cardboard model of a house, can I split the 30 a different way can, who knows.
By the way we have never been given any direction or training on how to grade the projects (not even in college).
The only way I would know is to break into the very small group of people that do it every year (that have a massive advantage over the rest of us poor plebs but again thats another thread)

Now my issue is if this is the way we are going with a state exam for the Leaving Cert, just imagine the shambles the JC will be.

How can there be any standards in the LC Construction marking (there cannnot) now apply it to the "doesn't matter anymore" JC

implausible

amacca wrote: »

Thats what it seems like to me (as poorly thought out as recent "reforms")…but are they really that clueless?

Even if you look at it purely through a saving money lens it doesn't seem to make a hell of a lot of sense (could end up costing more money in the long run imo)

I don't know. They rolled out the new English curriculum without it being ready. They gave no info on assessment because they didn't have it, questions about recording oral assessments were met with blank stares as it clearly hadn't been thought out. Info on assessment was put on the website and was very vague (I presume it will be the basis of another inservice day after we've started teaching it.) If my planning was that shoddy, I wouldn't last a week and an inspector would have a field day.

man_no_plan

implausible wrote: »

Not splitting hairs, just pointing out that it's not exam work that we could be correcting.

How does the marking currently work for the coursework? Is there a set structure to it and you mark each heading?

I know how indepth the marking conferences go, to me it seems impossible that an inservice delivered to all teachers of a subject can even approach that, unless the coursework is very prescriptive i.e. a short story of a particular length about a particular theme or an analysis of a poem with set headings and criteria to use. It will be a logistical nightmare and they have not thought it through.

In England they have moderation meetings between schools, there is no way we can give any more time, never mind to something as unwelcome as this.

Any talks that come out of this strike will have to provide answers to these concerns, answers which I don't think the DES has.

Rurai Quinn was more concerned with generic uniforms and running the religious out of schools than with education. His advisors are most likely still in the DES and are advising the minister poorly because this was their baby.

An honest discussion needs to happen in the DES. For right or for wrong teachers are doing work that was once the work of post holders, doing mandatory additional hours and a host of initiatives like SSE, literary and numeracy etc.

There is only so much capacity in the system. Dumbing down teaching to make room for project work is not good for anybody. Loading schools and teachers beyond what they can cope with is not acceptable.

Jamfa

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Well actually in both my subjects we have no idea what the 40% will consist of so it could well be exam work?

The details for the 40% in English are available and something similar is to happen in each other subject. Remember the new JC is being phased in over the next 8 years. There are to be two school based assessnents that take place towards the end of 2nd year & Christmas of 3rd. In English 15% goes for an oral communication task which is to last 3 mins & there is a marking grid, features of quality & inservice provided. The other 25% is for a collection of written texts like a portfolio to be completed over the course of 2nd year & up to Christmas of 3rd year. I think the idea is to get away from assessing English only by timed written exams. In school moderation is to take place & a selection up to 15% will be externally assessed. I think this is what is now proposed.

rainbowtrout

implausible wrote: »

I don't know. They rolled out the new English curriculum without it being ready. They gave no info on assessment because they didn't have it, questions about recording oral assessments were met with blank stares as it clearly hadn't been thought out. Info on assessment was put on the website and was very vague (I presume it will be the basis of another inservice day after we've started teaching it.) If my planning was that shoddy, I wouldn't last a week and an inspector would have a field day.

Very true. Science is the same. They are doing the consultation now. What kind of preparation is that for a (rubbish) syllabus that is supposed to be taught next September?

In contrast, a few of the mandatory experiments were removed from the Chemistry syllabus as the chemicals used in them are now banned. The change was made in Sept 13 to be examined in 2015. The normal 2 years notice for a change in four experiments.

But the content of an entire syllabus and how it is to be assessed is only in the consultation stage now???? Shows how much regard there is for the Junior Cert.

Further to that, there are plans to update the LC Physics, Chemistry and Biology syllabi. The consultation for them was in 2011 or 2012, I can't remember which. To the best of my knowledge the updated syllabi won't be introduced until about 2017.

Consultation has begun for Applied Maths and Agricultural Science - both with syllabi more than 40 years old (1969 in the case of Ag Science). It's highly unlikely these updated syllabi will be introduced until the Physics, Chemistry and Biology are.

So why is it acceptable to just rush through a consultation and have the syllabus introduced within the year at Junior Cert level?

seavill

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Very true. Science is the same. They are doing the consultation now. What kind of preparation is that for a (rubbish) syllabus that is supposed to be taught next September?

In contrast, a few of the mandatory experiments were removed from the Chemistry syllabus as the chemicals used in them are now banned. The change was made in Sept 13 to be examined in 2015. The normal 2 years notice for a change in four experiments.

But the content of an entire syllabus and how it is to be assessed is only in the consultation stage now???? Shows how much regard there is for the Junior Cert.

Further to that, there are plans to update the LC Physics, Chemistry and Biology syllabi. The consultation for them was in 2011 or 2012, I can't remember which. To the best of my knowledge the updated syllabi won't be introduced until about 2017.

Consultation has begun for Applied Maths and Agricultural Science - both with syllabi more than 40 years old (1969 in the case of Ag Science). It's highly unlikely these updated syllabi will be introduced until the Physics, Chemistry and Biology are.

So why is it acceptable to just rush through a consultation and have the syllabus introduced within the year at Junior Cert level?

Just to add to that the new Leaving cert Architectural Technology Course (now Construction Studies) spent a few years being written and was completed ready to go in 2005 or 2006. It still has not been implemented (the current course was introduced in 1984, 30 years ago) and we all know how far and how modern the construction industry has become in the last 10 years never mind 30 years.

rainbowtrout

seavill wrote: »

Just to add to that the new Leaving cert Architectural Technology Course (now Construction Studies) spent a few years being written and was completed ready to go in 2005 or 2006. It still has not been implemented (the current course was introduced in 1984, 30 years ago) and we all know how far and how modern the construction industry has become in the last 10 years never mind 30 years.

Yep, I remember hearing the new name for Construction a few years ago and then it never happened. A syllabus was written for Ag Science in 1996. No doubt it is gathering dust somewhere in the DES.

man_no_plan

Jamfa wrote: »

The details for the 40% in English are available and something similar is to happen in each other subject. Remember the new JC is being phased in over the next 8 years. There are to be two school based assessnents that take place towards the end of 2nd year & Christmas of 3rd. In English 15% goes for an oral communication task which is to last 3 mins & there is a marking grid, features of quality & inservice provided. The other 25% is for a collection of written texts like a portfolio to be completed over the course of 2nd year & up to Christmas of 3rd year. I think the idea is to get away from assessing English only by timed written exams. In school moderation is to take place & a selection up to 15% will be externally assessed. I think this is what is now proposed.

The idea is fine. But record the oral presentation and fire it off to Athlone for marking.

Scenario for one subject, lets say English. 120 in the year group, keep it handy 4x 30 classes.

15% will be moderated. In a class of 30 4-5 will be externally verified or is it 18/120 which could possibly come from the same class! Some teachers may be missed (go on tell us moderation will take care of that).

15% of grades will be moderated...
120 x 10 subjects is 1200 results, oh wait, two pieces of coursework 2400 individual grades.
360 individual pieces will be moderated, 2000 never get a second look.

Is it 15% of grades?
15% of each subject?
15% of each class?

Or do they moderate all second year science, plus third year English (240) and a bit of woodwork and some geography this year to give 360 and say that they've moderated 15%.

Its not practical to do it any other way. The devil will be in the detail. There I no detail. This is make it up as you go along stuff.

AND

what if the external moderation finds errors? Who re-marks the work?

If there is an appeal of a grade who do you appeal to? The teacher? The school? The sec? Is there a fee? Who marks appeals? I'm sitting here thinking of this, if we were all to get together we could come up with a huge list if errors in the proposals.

Until these issues are addressed the handbrake stays on.

rainbowtrout

man_no_plan wrote: »

The idea is fine. But record the oral presentation and fire it off to Athlone for marking.

Yep, this already happens at LC level with LCVP. The portfolio consists of 6 items chosen out of a list of 8, 7 of the options are typed and the 8th is a recorded interview. We do the interview option in my school. The interviews are put on CDs and packed off with the rest of the portfolios to Athlone with the written exams and the examiner who corrects the exam also corrects the students portfolio. I can't honestly see why this can't be an option for the various JC subjects.

Jamfa

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yep, this already happens at LC level with LCVP. The portfolio consists of 6 items chosen out of a list of 8, 7 of the options are typed and the 8th is a recorded interview. We do the interview option in my school. The interviews are put on CDs and packed off with the rest of the portfolios to Athlone with the written exams and the examiner who corrects the exam also corrects the students portfolio. I can't honestly see why this can't be an option for the various JC subjects.

Good point to stress that teachers are happy to be involved in the assessment process such as LCVP but the SEC should give an impartial grade which is combined with the written exam. This is much more positive image of what we do than the idea that we never assess our students.

History Queen

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Most people would jump at the chance to be a permanent unsackable teacher with a gold star pension - all paid for by those less well off in the private sector.

Teachers deserve zero sympathy for their imagined grievances.

I have some feedback for you regarding your negative comments on this thread:

First of all you don't understand the job that a teacher does.

Secondly you are spouting your opinion as fact.

Thirdly, I am a teacher, currently subbing, so I am not permanent, can loose my job and certainly do not have a gold starred pension. There are hundreds like me in schools up and down the country. I have friends and family in the private sector much better off than me.

I picketed today. Not for job security, not better working conditions and not for better pay. I picketed because I believe that the current JC proposals are a threat to the education of my current and future students. I also believe that should they go ahead I, as a teacher, will not be properly trained or resourced to implement them. I believe there will be a race to the bottom as regards people trying to mind their jobs and compete with other teachers and schools when it comes to assessment. That is why I was on the picket line.

Now point out to me exactly which of my grievences are ''imagined''

acequion

Reading all the above posts about marking from people who know what they're talking about just makes it all the clearer that Ruari Quinn's great "reform" is an unworkable mess.And it wouldn't surprise me if Jan O Sullivan realises that deep down.I thought she looked very worried and under pressure on the news tonight.

The decent thing would be for the Government to back down,defer their reforms until an acceptable,solution can be found, which is costed and thought through. But they won't do that,especially not after their climb down on the water charges. So that means that we have to toughen this one out!

km79

acequion wrote: »

Reading all the above posts about marking from people who know what they're talking about just makes it all the clearer that Ruari Quinn's great "reform" is an unworkable mess.And it wouldn't surprise me if Jan O Sullivan realises that deep down.I thought she looked very worried and under pressure on the news tonight.

The decent thing would be for the Government to back down,defer their reforms until an acceptable,solution can be found, which is costed and thought through. But they won't do that,especially not after their climb down on the water charges. So that means that we have to toughen this one out!

I was astonished that one of her first acts was not to defer JC Reform for 12 months to buy herself some time and a lot of good will from us!!!!!
I mean if she REALLY believes in it and its not about money what difference would 12 months make.......

Dr Crippen

She could be out of government by then?

acequion

Dr Crippen wrote: »

She could be out of government by then?

And she will be.Maybe not by then but she is certain to be part of the Labour annihilation that's coming.And three years from now all but teachers will be going,Jan who?

This is all about this shambles of a Government trying to save face. They're counting on the apathy and antipathy of the public towards teachers in addition to the not unsizeable element within our own ranks who agree with her to push this one through. They'll then be counting on the recovery,an extra few bob in people's pockets and their big boast that they saved the country from ruin to save themselves from ruin. I won't be buying it but again a not unsizeable element will,just as they kept voting for Bertie and co.

Am feeling very demoralised today folks,just barely going through the motions at the job. I doubt I'm the only one. The constant attacks of recent years has sucked the energy and enthusiasm out of many. But that's not the kind of stuff that makes the papers.

evolving_doors

acequion wrote: »

And she will be.Maybe not by then but she is certain to be part of the Labour annihilation that's coming.And three years from now all but teachers will be going,Jan who?

This is all about this shambles of a Government trying to save face. They're counting on the apathy and antipathy of the public towards teachers in addition to the not unsizeable element within our own ranks who agree with her to push this one through. They'll then be counting on the recovery,an extra few bob in people's pockets and their big boast that they saved the country from ruin to save themselves from ruin. I won't be buying it but again a not unsizeable element will,just as they kept voting for Bertie and co.

Am feeling very demoralised today folks,just barely going through the motions at the job. I doubt I'm the only one. The constant attacks of recent years has sucked the energy and enthusiasm out of many. But that's not the kind of stuff that makes the papers.

Its the advisors who need to go. Hold the line, Jan knows the public support is turning towards the teachers position.
The last thing she wants is another FG U-turn so she's desperate...
Phil Hogan - Irish Water
James O' Reilly - Free GP/ Universal Health/ Medical Cards
Ruairi Quinn's 'legacy' is next to fail.

Dont get me wrong, Im intrigued by the proposals... but it seems to be like Irish water with nothing thought out, back of envelope stuff (remember Charlie McCreevy's decentralisation)
Once consultation and planing doesn't happen then its doomed to fail.

I noticed the radio-newspaper-neo-liberal-rabble were particularly quiet yesterday when they couldn't find enough ire against teachers to broadcast. If Ed. Walsh and some guy from IBEC (who lets face it are never happy with teachers/public service) is the best they can do then it says a lot.

The answer is in the silence.

implausible

Armelodie wrote: »

I noticed the radio-newspaper-neo-liberal-rabble were particularly quiet yesterday when they couldn't find enough ire against teachers to broadcast. If Ed. Walsh and some guy from IBEC (who lets face it are never happy with teachers/public service) is the best they can do then it says a lot.

The answer is in the silence.

Did any of you hear Joe Mag Riallaigh yesterday evening on Drivetime? He had obviously been sent to Newry to report about all of the teachers going shopping. Instead he got 10 minutes of filler vox-pop from people who had gone to get dentistry done or to get cheaper pharmaceutical products. Not a teacher in sight!

I was surprised too by the lack of vitriol in the reporting. It seems that if money isn't involved and it's obviously about the integrity of the education system, people start to run out of bile.

While JO'S was talking the talk, I didn't think she looked too convincing on the news.

man_no_plan

implausible wrote: »

Did any of you hear Joe Mag Riallaigh yesterday evening on Drivetime? He had obviously been sent to Newry to report about all of the teachers going shopping. Instead he got 10 minutes of filler vox-pop from people who had gone to get dentistry done or to get cheaper pharmaceutical products. Not a teacher in sight!

I was surprised too by the lack of vitriol in the reporting. It seems that if money isn't involved and it's obviously about the integrity of the education system, people start to run out of bile.

While JO'S was talking the talking, I didn't think she looked too convincing on the news.

Heard it! 'Did you take the day off work' he asked one man - ' I'm retired' he replied. Sickened Joe!

rainbowtrout

implausible wrote: »

Did any of you hear Joe Mag Riallaigh yesterday evening on Drivetime? He had obviously been sent to Newry to report about all of the teachers going shopping. Instead he got 10 minutes of filler vox-pop from people who had gone to get dentistry done or to get cheaper pharmaceutical products. Not a teacher in sight!

I was surprised too by the lack of vitriol in the reporting. It seems that if money isn't involved and it's obviously about the integrity of the education system, people start to run out of bile.

While JO'S was talking the talk, I didn't think she looked too convincing on the news.

Teacher bashing has been such an easy thing for the government/media to do for the last 6-7 years in particular. When reports revolved around money, it was an easy way to get the public onside with the government line. The very notion that a reporter was sent to Newry to seek out teachers doing their Christmas shopping speaks volumes of the opinion of us in media circles. The tide is starting to turn, which is refreshing to see for a change.

acequion

There's also a lot of anti Government sentiment out there. Which is good for us.

amacca

acequion wrote: »

There's also a lot of anti Government sentiment out there. Which is good for us.

its only right imo - its mostly the wrong sections of society/soft easy targets that are scapegoated

Chancer3001

Just wondering, how good are the Asti school stewards in your school?

It seems to vary wildly from school to school.

Do they give clear information? Do they pander to the loudest voice? Do they give incorrect information?

Ours was non-existing for a while, but the new guy is doing a good job although he stays out of a lot of stuff!

acequion

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Just wondering, how good are the Asti school stewards in your school?

It seems to vary wildly from school to school.

Do they give clear information? Do they pander to the loudest voice? Do they give incorrect information?

Ours was non-existing for a while, but the new guy is doing a good job although he stays out of a lot of stuff!

Our rep is excellent. But then the majority of the staff in our school would all be singing off the same hymn sheet,ie supportive of defending teacher conditions,majority no vote in final HR ballot etc.

But you're right. Reps do vary widely.

gaiscioch

Has anybody on the teachers' side got anything on that smug, haughty conceited auld bastard Ed Walsh who repeatedly demands teachers pay and conditions be reduced?* He was on Prime Time the other night throwing nonsense claims around in a consistently imperious tone - "no other government would even negotiate with the teachers' unions" and being frankly dishonest (at best) in his claims regarding the role of continuous assessment within other European secondary school systems. Prime Time ended with Walsh laughing derisively at the teachers' representatives.

Nobody challenges the dubious claims and his pompous arrogance of this former head of a glorified rural college, in any forum. The two teachers' union leaders on the same show could have publicly humiliated him with facts, but they chose not to, or else they failed to prepare to counter the same tired, predictable lies of Walsh.

/rant over

* This is the same Ed Walsh who received a lump sum of almost €300,000 (£225,000) when he retired from UL in 1997. He has also being in receipt of a pension of over €100,000 per year since. Ireland's very own Marie Antoinette.

acequion

gaiscioch wrote: »

Has anybody on the teachers' side got anything on that smug, haughty conceited auld bastard Ed Walsh who repeatedly demands teachers pay and conditions be reduced?* He was on Prime Time the other night throwing nonsense claims around in a consistently imperious tone - "no other government would even negotiate with the teachers' unions" and being frankly dishonest (at best) in his claims regarding the role of continuous assessment within other European secondary school systems. Prime Time ended with Walsh laughing derisively at the teachers' representatives.

Nobody challenges the dubious claims and his pompous arrogance of this former head of a glorified rural college, in any forum. The two teachers' union leaders on the same show could have publicly humiliated him with facts, but they chose not to, or else they failed to prepare to counter the same tired, predictable lies of Walsh.

/rant over

* This is the same Ed Walsh who received a lump sum of almost €300,000 (£225,000) when he retired from UL in 1997. He has also being in receipt of a pension of over €100,000 per year since. Ireland's very own Marie Antoinette.

Last week Walsh had an article in The Independent,another blatant piece of anti teacher propaganda, filled with mistruths and misinformation. So I decided to write a letter where I made clear and succinct rebuttals to his claims.I spent hours researching my facts first to be certain they were correct. Anyway did the indo publish my letter. Not a hope of it!

That's the kind of democracy we have in Ireland that the pro establishment media will only publish what suits their argument. There are probably tons of people out there trying to take on Walsh,but they won't get a public forum to do it. I didn't see that Prime Time and I don't think I'll watch it. I really find the anti teacher campaign very upsetting because it is so unjust.

RealJohn

Try sending it to all of the other papers and include a bit about the Indo refusing to publish it, implying that they're in bed with Walsh. Might get a bit more notice that way.

gaiscioch

Parents were coming down to our school with coffee and biscuits, while retired staff came down (with food supplies) to support us also. Plenty of support for teachers on this issue, and the wider hostility to this government definitely fed into that support if the number of cars and trucks going by blowing horns was an indicator. I definitely sensed we were part of a movement against this government.

Ní uasal aon uasal ach sinne bheith íseal: Éirímis (The great appear great because we are on our knees: Let us rise.)

killbillvol2

An observation from the primary end.

A good few of our parents were asking me why we weren't on strike the other day. I explained that it was a second level issue to do with JC. A lot of them asked for more details and when I explained it they were very supportive and thought that the strike was justified and that the reforms were wrong.

As many posters have pointed out this is a good time to take on this government and this is a very good issue to tackle them on. But the message isn't getting out to a lot of parents.

Nobody around where I work gives a sh1t about Ed Walsh and nobody reads mainstream media. The local CC posted on their Facebook page that the school would be closed because of a dispute but that was it. They should have taken the opportunity to explain the issue because when it's explained almost all parents are supportive.

I've discussed this with a few of my colleagues from the CC and they agree that the message isn't getting out.

There's a significant and vociferous audience on social media and schools should be making their case and harnessing their support. Letters to the Indo will probably be read by your colleagues. Online is where the message gets out to parents and the wider community.

HIB

killbillvol2 wrote: »

An observation from the primary end.

A good few of our parents were asking me why we weren't on strike the other day. I explained that it was a second level issue to do with JC. A lot of them asked for more details and when I explained it they were very supportive and thought that the strike was justified and that the reforms were wrong.

As many posters have pointed out this is a good time to take on this government and this is a very good issue to tackle them on. But the message isn't getting out to a lot of parents.

Nobody around where I work gives a sh1t about Ed Walsh and nobody reads mainstream media. The local CC posted on their Facebook page that the school would be closed because of a dispute but that was it. They should have taken the opportunity to explain the issue because when it's explained almost all parents are supportive.

I've discussed this with a few of my colleagues from the CC and they agree that the message isn't getting out.

There's a significant and vociferous audience on social media and schools should be making their case and harnessing their support. Letters to the Indo will probably be read by your colleagues. Online is where the message gets out to parents and the wider community.

How about the INTO go out in support? Time for a bit of solidarity I think.

killbillvol2

HIB wrote: »

How about the INTO go out in support? Time for a bit of solidarity I think.

Brilliant idea. Just when teachers are winning a PR battle for the first time in years you'd suggest we close schools that don't even teach the subjects? :rolleyes:

HIB

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Brilliant idea. Just when teachers are winning a PR battle for the first time in years you'd suggest we close schools that don't even teach the subjects? :rolleyes:

Yeah I do. Workers solidarity is a key tenet of union philosophy.

japester

I do feel that the secondary teachers are winning this particular battle - it is the most important one of all in my view. The majority of people I have spoken to feel that it is vital for the JC exam to remain independently assessed so that corruption of any sort can be avoided. Many people think of the various acts of corruption that this and past governments have engaged in over the years and certainly want to keep the education system as blemish-free as possible. I am not a second-level teacher or a parent, but you all have my strong support. Fight the good fight on this issue - I think in her heart of hearts Jan O Sullivan knows that the integrity of the education system is at stake here, but she has inherited a poisoned chalice from Ruairi and is no doubt under pressure to try and deliver something for the government on it.

MrJones1973

Dont get too optimistic. Think of votes last few years. Think of what this Government has pushed through.

MrJones1973

Next strike day Jan 22

acequion

How do people feel and what's the feeling in your schools?

I personally think it would be dreadful if the unions [and members] were to capitulate now. Things have very much changed since HRA in that at last public opposition to Govt policies is very much on the up. At last people are realising that austerity is not the only way,and what is their JC reform only austerity in a different dress??

So,there hasn't been a better opportunity since this Govt came to power to lay down a marker and bluntly refuse any sort of compromise. As has been said on another thread, re-establishment of core services in schools,NQT's getting parity with serving teachers and democracy for those stuck in S&S against their will MUST be addressed before JC reform can even be considered.

I think the onus is very much on us to block it out by voting no to yet another ridiculous "compromise".

Inspector Coptoor

I feel the strike action is too early and I don't like playing our Ace card/trump card so early in the exchange.

However, I'll tow the party line and picket again on the 22nd.

We should, as has been mentioned earlier, refuse outright to comply with any of these reforms until we are listened to

man_no_plan

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I feel the strike action is too early and I don't like playing our Ace card/trump card so early in the exchange.

However, I'll tow the party line and picket again on the 22nd.

We should, as has been mentioned earlier, refuse outright to comply with any of these reforms until we are listened to

Its not too early. The game is nearly up. No in-service, no clue about the assessment that's supposed to be happening in second year with English.

Its pressure time for the department, striking keeps it high on the agenda. There's time to talk now, a strike this time next year would be no use as the whole thing will have gone too far.

This has been a case of real opposition from the outset, two years now, so its not too early.

f3232

acequion wrote: »

How do people feel and what's the feeling in your schools?

I personally think it would be dreadful if the unions [and members] were to capitulate now. Things have very much changed since HRA in that at last public opposition to Govt policies is very much on the up. At last people are realising that austerity is not the only way,and what is their JC reform only austerity in a different dress??

So,there hasn't been a better opportunity since this Govt came to power to lay down a marker and bluntly refuse any sort of compromise. As has been said on another thread, re-establishment of core services in schools,NQT's getting parity with serving teachers and democracy for those stuck in S&S against their will MUST be addressed before JC reform can even be considered.

I think the onus is very much on us to block it out by voting no to yet another ridiculous "compromise".

Not to put a dampener on it but reading between the lines from someone in the know in the TUI -compromise is on the cards. Which stresses the importance of the above comment.

km79

f3232 wrote: »

Not to put a dampener on it but reading between the lines from someone in the know in the TUI -compromise is on the cards. Which stresses the importance of the above comment.

this will be the end of the unions.......a lot of people are like myself .......hoping against hope they stay strong and don't sell us out BUT of they do will be gone

MrJones1973

Barry Hazel has an article in the Irish Independent tomorrow outlining where he sees the issue going. Be strong people. Expect the TUI to jump ship -they always do.

Regarding dispute-think about this people-why should you compromise? 2 posts per school? Most teachers wont get them. Because the big bad Department wants you to-what exactly can they do to us now? They cant force you to sit down and correct them.They have Zero-I repeat Zero leverage.

BTW-Anybody here Dublin North West ASTI members or Dublin South west Asti members? Branch ?

evolving_doors

I think politics and elections might have more to do with a resolution...
giveaway budget next year
Good time to call an election after budget...
Meanwhile Jan either bides her time till she checks out. What FG don't want is another govt uturn before the election...

this is why I thinkthe union are forcing the issue early in new year.. plus they might encourage a few more teachers to join the union before a strike.

f3232

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

2 posts per school? Most teachers wont get them.

Where did you hear this information?