Gardai proposals to ban firearms

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Second point...We need to push for an extension for time on the written and ORAL submissions.

From facebook:

Wild Deer Ireland wrote:

We have been advised today by Frances Fitzgerald TD, Minister for Justice and Equality, that
the deadline for submissions regarding proposed amendments to the current firearm licensing system has been extended from December 15th 2014 to January 31st 2015.

We will begin a consultation process with our members over the coming days in advance of our submission on this matter.

We would also urge members to make individual submissions. Submissions may be e-mailed to: firearms_inbox@justice.ie or may be posted to Crime 4, Department of Justice and Equality, 94 St. Stephen’s Green, Dublin 2.

Tea drinker

That's what "getting bad" gets us ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kNbZcT8RXgE

Witcher

The Sports Coalition have drafted a submission letter you can print off and send in to the Department of Justice. Scroll down a bit here;

http://www.sportscoalition.org/petition/

Had a quick read through it and it seems pretty even handed and civil, to give them their due. You could also use it as a template if you wanted to do up your own submission instead.

loftypheasant

Just sent my 'Twopence Worth' to my local representatives. Kept it civil. I urged them to attend the briefing tomorrow. I forwarded the letter the 'Justice' inbox for submissions. I wonder will anybody read them? I may yet make a more detailed rebuttal of the 'brilliant' arguments made by the DOJ/Guards just for the hell of it. On a positive note I'm already excited about voting in the next General Election! I'll follow up the message with a visit or phone call to see how they got on.

2011

Just received this email so I'm spreading the word:

Dear Oireachtas Member,

Please be advised that due to expected disruption outside Leinster House tomorrow, Thursday 20th as a result of the debate on the water charges, the firearms licensing briefing scheduled in Buswells Hotel is now postponed to take place on Tuesday next, November 25th in the Board Room, Buswells Hotel, Molesworth from 10am and throughout that day until 4pm. Representatives of the Sports Coalition will be present to speak to public representatives on this important issue and bring them up to date on developments.

We look forward to meeting you on the 25th.

Kindest regards,


Desmond Crofton

National Director

NARGC

& Spokesperson for the Sports Coalition

Grizzly 45

REF the cancelling in Buswells hotel.
I CONCUR...Got the same message and was asked to forward it.

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=Sparks;93098604]Then could people stop saying stupid things like "Everyone has to join the Sport Coalition, and we should be lobbying the NGBs who haven't to do so"? At best it just gets people's backs up and isn't productive. If we're all trying to do the same thing, it's not even necessary

.

Like I said cattiness and biatch fighting for which there is no need ,agree 100%

We can, and we'd be right, but I'm not sure it'd be the most effective approach. One way or another, we're going to have to work with these people in the future (the only way we don't is if there's been a full ban on all private firearms ownership brought in).

Trouble is I cant see us and them ever seeing the same colour not to mind eye to eye.Despite their many protestations post DC of us sitting down and talking about things.Sure,I talked to my CS and Super somewhat and they still came up with the most untenable positions to refuse the application. A cse of you can say whatever you like ,answer is still NO!!
They have been the cheif arm of the state and have had the power of granting or saying whats what for too long here in Ireland .Even IF they get told sorry no deal with this...Do you think they wont throw up every obstruction in the way to stymie anything positive in the future.One thing I have learned ,bullies when told to play nice are still bullies no matter what at heart.
The best option is we call for this entire process bar backround checks,to be removed from AGS and this is handled by a civillian administration.

Not to mention, raising the matter of Garda scandals in the press as a direct argument to a Minister who's seeing scandals in the press as a pretty strong threat to her current post is quite probably not the best way to get what we need. She can't sack the whole Garda force, so she's more likely to just try to dismiss us instead if we go down that route. Problems that directly relate to licencing (senior Gardai altering forms mid-court-case, "lost" paperwork, that sort of thing) might be fair game, but you start talking about PULSE reclassification of assaults to lower category crimes, penalty points being lost and those things and the first statement you'll hear back is that "those have nothing to do with firearms legislation and please stick to the agenda" because politicians know about the Lyndon B Johnson trick and like it or not, they're professionals and this is their job.

No need to mention certain people were caught around the pig sty and the sows had very happy faces the following morning if we are sticking with Prez Johnstons comment...That is a known known. However all it needs is an implication that there is a serious creditability issue to hand and we are being gentlemanly about it. She doesnt have to, and ASFIK cant sack the lowliest Garda but might have a word with Noreen in the girls powder room that some of this if not all is right off the menu for her future political career.

hurlsey

Quote: Wild Deer Ireland
We have been advised today by Frances Fitzgerald TD, Minister for Justice and Equality, that
the deadline for submissions regarding proposed amendments to the current firearm licensing system has been extended from December 15th 2014 to January 31st 2015.

We will begin a consultation process with our members over the coming days in advance of our submission on this matter.

We would also urge members to make individual submissions. Submissions may be e-mailed to: firearms_inbox@justice.ie or may be posted to Crime 4, Department of Justice and Equality, 94 St. Stephen’s Green, Dublin 2.


Surely this extension is a good sign that the Minister doesn't simply want to accept the proposals from AGS!!
Maybe a sliver of light at the end of the tunnel?
What are the chances realistically that an independent Firearms Licencing Body could be established?
Could reloading become a reality?
( I mean an actual reality, I don't fancy having to build an underground magazine for a pound of Hodgdon and some primers)
I would personally, along with many others, would like to be allowed to reload!

Tea drinker

Hi Hurlsey.
IMHO It's a sign of.... nothing. It might be something, it might not. But it certainly isn't some sort of amber light, lets go easy. We have to remain focussed and achieve more. Now is the time to keep going to politicians, keep emailing keep spreading the word. There's no reason to believe it's good news.
Yubabill will probably say it's a ruse to take the wind out of our sails ;-)

SVI40

The Justice web site still says 15th December as the deadline.

yubabill1

Strider wrote: »

The Sports Coalition have drafted a submission letter you can print off and send in to the Department of Justice. Scroll down a bit here;

http://www.sportscoalition.org/petition/

Had a quick read through it and it seems pretty even handed and civil, to give them their due. You could also use it as a template if you wanted to do up your own submission instead.

Submission is well-argued, but off the top of my head, needs to mention powers given to AGS to refuse licence applications based on crime, proliferation.

BoatMad

I got this back from Simon Harris, my TD

"
Thank you for taking the time to contact me on this matter and to bring this issue to my attention.

I will do my very best to attend the briefing in Buswell's Hotel tomorrow and if I am not in a position to attend personally owing to the Dail schedule, I will send a representative on my behalf.

I have contacted the Minister for Justice on this matter and I have been informed that no changes to firearms licensing will take place before consultation with interested parties, including groups representing gun users.

In this regard, the Department of Justice and Equality has set up a dedicated email address firearms_inbox@justice.ie to submit views on the Report of the Working Group. The closing date for submissions has been extended to the 31st January 2015 and further details are available on the Department of Justice website at http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PB14000319.

The establishment of this consultation process follows on from commitments made by the Minister for Justice and Equality, to give individuals and representative groups an opportunity to contribute to the future direction of legislation in this area.

The Minister has written to the various stakeholder groups, including NARGC; and she will be meeting with key stakeholder groups.

The Minister has written to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Equality & Defence seeking their response to the report of the Working Group.

I want to thank you again for taking the time to contact me and assure you that I will continue to closely monitor this process and please keep in touch with me on the matter.

I hope this information is of use to you.

Best wishes.

Kind Regards,

Simon



Simon Harris TD
Minister of State at the Departments of Finance & Public Expenditure and Reform with Special Responsibility for the OPW, Public Procurement and International Banking

Constituency Office:
Office 4, Market Court, Main Street, Bray, Co. Wicklow
Phone: 01-6183805 (Dáil) ¦ 01-2813727 (Constituency)

Twitter: @SimonHarrisTD
Facebook: www.facebook.com/DeputySimonHarris

"


Seems like a reasonable response, looks like we shall get an opportunity to respond

Grizzly 45

Anyone notice how "standard reply" these TDs responses are already??
They are becoming almost verbatim. Just saying...:)

Grizzly 45

Tea drinker wrote: »

Hi Hurlsey.
IMHO It's a sign of.... nothing. It might be something, it might not. But it certainly isn't some sort of amber light, lets go easy. We have to remain focussed and achieve more. Now is the time to keep going to politicians, keep emailing keep spreading the word. There's no reason to believe it's good news.
Yubabill will probably say it's a ruse to take the wind out of our sails ;-)

OR like Irish water..Kick this can down the road until the elections are passed in 2015 or 16,depending on further screw ups,and incompetant bungling of relatively simple matters and let it be someone else's problem when they get behind the desk in Kildare street.:pac:

BUT its NO excuse for any let up on our part!!! Keep em under pressure!

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Trouble is I cant see us and them ever seeing the same colour not to mind eye to eye.

Probably not, but you don't need that to work with them.

The best option is we call for this entire process bar backround checks,to be removed from AGS and this is handled by a civillian administration.

Pretty enormous ask there Grizz, I wouldn't be putting in that right at this moment. Shoot the nearest crocodile first, not the largest.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

OR like Irish water..Kick this can down the road until the elections are passed

Works for us. New administration, new policies, no push to continue down the policy route of the previous Minister (except for legislation that's too advanced; when it gets to the stage the CJA2006 was at when McDowell left, for example, the next Minister will just keep the ball rolling).

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Anyone notice how "standard reply" these TDs responses are already??
They are becoming almost verbatim. Just saying...:)

Just received a reply from Sean Fleming. I've met the man a few times in my area over other matters, and actually found him to be effective, attentive, and genuinely concerned over issues brought up.

I say this because the reply from him in NO WAY resembles any of the ones above. It was a personal reply, in his own words. In it he says he attended the meeting at HH, which some of you know from being there, and is not happy with the treatment we are receiving and intends to ask questions of the Minister at the next possible moment.

One thing he did mention. I explained in my e-mail that while he may be receiving hundreds of e-mails i urge him to take the time to read them to which he said i was the ONLY e-mail he has received about the matter.


No replies from the others yet, but nice one to Mr Fleming for being the stand out.

IrishTarget

Does anyone know if the sports coalition forum site is up and running yet?

Wadi14

http://www.sportscoalition.org/petition/ yes its up and running ahhh forum site not sure

yubabill1

Department of Justice and Equality / An Garda Síochána Working Group on Review of Firearms Licensing

Report of November 2014

The report of the working committee draws authority for its proposals from stated policy. The section headed 2. Executive Summary

"The Commissioner of An Garda Síochána has raised concerns with DOJE in relation to the continued licensing of certain firearms, in the interests of public safety"

prefaces the section headed 4. Oireachtas Debates 2009

"I am determined to ensure that a gun culture is not allowed to form in this State".

The Minister wished to "dispel any notions that are any inherent rights to be considered here" (the right to possess a firearm).

The Minister also said "In this Bill, the concept of a prohibited firearm is introduced and Section 25 of the Bill (.....) proposes that the Minister.. should have the residual powers to be able to declare certain firearms and ammunition to be prohibited". (Section 27 of 2009 Act inserted a new Section 2C in the 1925 Firearms Act).

Minister Ahern said "I will, in consultation with the Garda Commissioner, keep the situation on firearms licensing under review in the interests of public safety".


While on page 9 of the report it states:


"In 2008 the then Minister for Justice, Dermot Ahern T.D. announced his intention to introduce restrictions on the licensing of handguns.

...At the time the Minister indicated that if the outcome of such a review into firearms licensing leaves a situation which still poses an unacceptable risk to the community then new powers could be used to ban outright any type of firearm."

I submit that this report fails to establish that current firearms licensing poses an unacceptable risk to the community and that the banning of firearms currently licensed is therefore not justified, given the abovementioned boundary conditions outlined in the Oireachtas.

I ask the reviewer to consider this document an addendum to submissions made by other shooting enthusiasts and to consider the following points in support of my contention.

1.The report, charged to examine

" in particular public safety, including issues relating to handguns and assault rifles" fails to identify a pattern of rising homicides involving firearms, as part-evidenced by official statistics below:

"An Garda Síochána recorded 2,198 incidents involving a firearm between 2009 and February 2014. An Garda Síochána have also advised that between 2009 and 2013 there were 96 murders and one case of manslaughter recorded in which firearms were used."

http://www.cso.ie/Quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=cja01c1.asp&TableName=Homicide+Offences&StatisticalProduct=DB_CJ


2) The report fails to include information on firearms seizures by Gardai, which would be an obvious source of information on criminal use of legal firearms.

"In many such cases it is impossible to say (due to the fact that the firearm is often not recovered) whether the firearms used were firearms that had been licensed and subsequently stolen from their owners or whether the firearms were never in fact licensed. A total of 1,134 firearms have been reported stolen from their owners in the period 2010 to 2013 inclusive, of which 355 were stolen in 2013. A further 159 firearms have been reported lost in the same four year period, 53 of which were reported lost in 2013."

".....An Garda Síochána has advised of the success in police operations in Ireland and internationally in thwarting specific trafficking routes for firearms. An Garda Síochána report that this can be seen on the ground where handguns are not being disposed of after each shooting as seen previously, but re-used again and again. This dearth of handguns could result in criminals focusing more on legally held handguns as a source."

3) The report relies on an assessment of the dangers of an atrocity, which is not included in the report or in the Appendices.


"The concerns of An Garda Síochána are also based in part on a forward looking assessment of the dangers of an atrocity being carried out with weapons primarily designed to kill human beings, as has unfortunately happened in other jurisdictions."


In failing to introduce evidence by way of a risk assessment, the report relies on the opinion of the retired Garda Commissioner of the risk to public safety posed by licensed firearms holders.

Conversely, the licensing authority presently cannot issue any firearms licence if they believe an applicant poses a risk to public safety.


4) Internationally, present Irish firearms legislation is already considered among the strictest in Europe:

Selected Information from From Gunpolicy.org

GunPolicy.org provides evidence-based, country-by-country intelligence from a broad range of official and academic sources. This university site is for researchers, officials, journalists and advocates who need accurate citations and rapid access to credible sources."

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/cp/ireland"]

Guns in the Republic of Ireland

Ireland has some of the least permissive firearm legislation in Europe. In order to possess a limited range of hunting and sport-shooting firearms,

1. Gun owners must renew their firearm certificates every three years.
2. Although small arms-related death, injury and crime remain relatively low, rising rates of gun violence and firearm ownership in the Republic ― in particular the possession and misuse of handguns ― have become sources of national concern.
3. In 2009, the private possession of handguns was curtailed.

Civilian Possession

With a confirmed firearm possession rate of 5.6 private guns per 100 population, civilian gun ownership in Ireland has yet to reach one-third the rate of 17.4 firearms per 100 people calculated across 15 countries of the European Union.

Gun Control Law

The regulation of privately held small arms in Ireland is ranked as restrictive, rather than permissive.


References:

1) Ireland.2001.‘Firearm Certificate Statistics.’ DoJ Annual Report 2000.Dublin:Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform,23 November. (Q189)

2)Ireland.2009.‘Amendment to section 3 of Principal Act – License Expiry.’ Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act Number 28 of 2009.Dublin:Houses of the Oireachtas,21 July. (Q1514)

3) Ireland.2009.‘Restriction on Licensing of Short Firearms.’ Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act Number 28 of 2009.Dublin:Houses of the Oireachtas,21 July. (Q1579)

4) Karp, Aaron.2007.‘Completing the Count: Ireland: isolated no longer.’ Small Arms Survey 2007: Guns and the City.Cambridge:Cambridge University Press,27 August. (Q192)

20) Karp, Aaron.2003.‘Fewer Blanks: Global Firearm Stockpiles.’ Small Arms Survey 2003: Development Denied.Oxford:Oxford University Press,1 July. (Q201)

43) Newton, George D and Franklin E Zimring.1969.‘Firearm Licensing: Permissive v Restrictive.’ Firearms & Violence in American Life: A staff report submitted to the National Commission on the Causes and Prevention of Violence.Washington, DC:US Government Printing Office,1 January. (Q22)

5.Proposed legislation provides the facility for a deciding officer to refuse a firearms license on the basis of appearance.

The appearance of any firearm can have no impact on public safety.

6.The report states that semi automatic shotguns and rifles are of military or police origin and therefore unsuitable for civilian use. These firearms are of sports origin, adopted by military and police.

The history of semi automatic and pump-action shotguns is well-known to pre-date military or police adoption.
It may be less well recognised that semi automatic rifles also pre-date same.
For example, in 1934 Texas Ranger Frank Hamer privately purchased a Remington Model 8 semi automatic hunting rifle (patented in 1900) and ballistics subsequently evidenced it had been used in the final encounter with Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker (Bonnie and Clyde).

7.The report incorrectly interprets a study on the lethality of handguns

The Garda authorities can see no good reason for the continued licensing of
centre-fire handguns. The Commissioner stated that:
“these handguns are primarily designed to kill human beings and
having carefully considered all of the information available to me, it is my
opinion they pose an unacceptable risk to society and should no longer be
licensed in this jurisdiction”.
"The problem of gun injuries and gun deaths was highlighted in a recent study,
a summary of which was published in the Irish Medical Journal’s September
2014 edition.
This study looked at gun shot wounds for all patients brought to Connolly
Hospital Emergency Department, Blanchardstown, between 2001 and 2010.
A total of 65 patients with gun shot injuries (with medical charts available in 59
cases) were seen during that time. Mortality for high velocity wounds (from
handguns, rifles and semi automatic firearms) was much higher (43% of 23
cases) than for low velocity shotgun injuries (6% mortality rate in 34 cases).
This high mortality rate with the use of lethal weapons was linked in the study
to gang related crime and the study stated that the availability of such firearms
to criminals is clearly a serious problem."

The study quoted also mentions that the shotgun injuries were to non-vital areas of the body, while the "high velocity" wounds were primarily to vital areas.
Further, the study author does not mention that the velocity of the projectile is only one of three parameters affecting lethality; velocity, in conjunction with projectile mass and frontal area determine the potential of the ammunition to transfer kinetic energy and create a lethal wound channel.
Thus, it does not follow that "handguns, rifles and semi automatic firearms" are inherently more lethal than shotguns:
A shotgun is usually less likely to penetrate objects such as vehicles and objects made of materials such as wood and fibreglass, due to the nature of its commonly-available ammunition. However, at short ranges - similar to effective ranges for handguns - a shotgun can be more lethal than "handguns, rifles and semi automatic firearms" when vital body areas are hit by pellets with a cumulative mass many times greater than projectiles from the aforementioned firearms.

8. Appendix C in the report contains a pejorative EU statistical correlation between Legally held firearms per 100 population and Homicides by firearm per 100 population.

This correlation appears to categorise illegal firearms with legal firearms, as a simple calculation based on our population of 4.5 million and Garda statistics on the number of licensed firearms in this report does not correspond to the EU figure for legally held firearms per 100 population for Ireland.
An objective observer might initially be led to believe that the number of legally-held firearms corresponds strongly with homicides by firearm, whereas more correctly, the average observer intuitively knows the number of illegal firearms has a very strong connection with homicide by firearm.
The statistics quoted in Appendix C are misleading and meaningless to the dispassionate observer.



Signed.............

Limerick Sovereigns

I intend to get a local TD to ask the Minister for Justice a series of questions specifically relating to handguns in order to get the Gardai to release statistics which I feel should be favourable to our arguments.

I would appreciate advise on 1. Is this a good idea. 2. if so, how can the questions be improved?

Q1. How many centerfire pistols/handguns have been seized/recovered by the Gardai in the course of criminal investigations each year since Jan 1st 20xx?

Q2. How many of these seized/recovered centerfire pistols/handguns were found to have been legally licenced in the Republic of Ireland before being illegally used?

Q3. How many centrefire pistols/handguns having being legal licenced in the Republic of Ireland and recorded in the Pulse database cannot be accounted for?

Q4. How many rimfire pistols/handguns have been seized/recovered by the Gardai in the course of criminal investigations each year since Jan 1st 20xx?

Q5. How many of these seized/recovered rimfire pistols/handguns were found to have been legally licenced in the Republic of Ireland before being illegally used?

Q6. How many rimfire pistols/handguns having being legally licenced in the Republic of Ireland and recorded in the Pulse database cannot be accounted for?

Thanks in advance.

Heckler

Limerick Sovereigns wrote: »

I intend to get a local TD to ask the Minister for Justice a series of questions specifically relating to handguns in order to get the Gardai to release statistics which I feel should be favourable to our arguments.

I would appreciate advise on 1. Is this a good idea. 2. if so, how can the questions be improved?

Q1. How many centerfire pistols/handguns have been seized/recovered by the Gardai in the course of criminal investigations each year since Jan 1st 20xx?

Q2. How many of these seized/recovered centerfire pistols/handguns were found to have been legally licenced in the Republic of Ireland before being illegally used?

Q3. How many centrefire pistols/handguns having being legal licenced in the Republic of Ireland and recorded in the Pulse database cannot be accounted for?

Q4. How many rimfire pistols/handguns have been seized/recovered by the Gardai in the course of criminal investigations each year since Jan 1st 20xx?

Q5. How many of these seized/recovered rimfire pistols/handguns were found to have been legally licenced in the Republic of Ireland before being illegally used?

Q6. How many rimfire pistols/handguns having being legally licenced in the Republic of Ireland and recorded in the Pulse database cannot be accounted for?

Thanks in advance.

And the answer will be.......Because some firearms used in some crimes were not recovered we can't tell if they were originally legally held but stolen. In other words we'll assume that most unrecovered firearms used in gun crime were legally held but stolen firearms.

Can you prove them wrong ? Nope. Are they wrong ? Most certainly. Do they care ? Most definitely not. Because you can't prove a negative and so legally held pistols get blamed for gun crime.

Anyone with half a brain can see the nonsense of this but thats whats happening.

The idea that a gun was "designed primarily" for killing people may be true but instruments evolve and can be used for many more functions.

Pretty sure the first caveman used a rock to kill an animal before he used it to build a house.

Used a stick for the same end.

Used a sharp rock which developed in time into a blade to more easily kill prey but was realised as being as useful for chopping wood, vegetables, skinning meat etc.

Small blade turns into a spear.........

spear turns into an arrow for longer distance...........

It goes on and on.

Fact is while firearms were primarily designed to kill they have evolved to be used for so much more.

cerastes

Cass wrote: »

Just received a reply from Sean Fleming. I've met the man a few times in my area over other matters, and actually found him to be effective, attentive, and genuinely concerned over issues brought up.

I say this because the reply from him in NO WAY resembles any of the ones above. It was a personal reply, in his own words. In it he says he attended the meeting at HH, which some of you know from being there, and is not happy with the treatment we are receiving and intends to ask questions of the Minister at the next possible moment.

One thing he did mention. I explained in my e-mail that while he may be receiving hundreds of e-mails i urge him to take the time to read them to which he said i was the ONLY e-mail he has received about the matter.


No replies from the others yet, but nice one to Mr Fleming for being the stand out.

I dont want to ask what may seem like a stupid question, not that I believe in that idea much, but has it been suggested that people send letters/or emails to politicians outside their local area, wouldnt this approach up the attention of these communications, rather than just one or two here or there which can more easily be brushed aside.
Any amount might be brushed aside, but isnt it better to get more attention so that this is known more widely or will such a communication be effectively not responded to because its outside the representatives local area.

Apologies if this has come up, I havent had time to review beyond a certain point in the thread.

Cass

You could send them to TDs outside of your constituency, however i would question the effectiveness of them, and the TDs opinion/response to them. S/he would view any correspondence from a person outside their constituency as "non important". Kinda hard to put this into what i'm thinking, but IMO they know these people will not be voting for them in any election, will not be coming to their clinic, and effectively are someone else's problem.

That being said rather than send to your local TDs only, it my be an idea to mail multiple TDs regardless of area. This will highlight the issue, but based on the responses i've seen so far (from the ones above) it seems they have "gotten together" and are now just sending the "please piss off and stop bothering us" or "we cannot say what we think and must send this standardised and sanitised response".

There are enough of us around the country, and while some districts may have a higher shooter per constituency ratio than others, to make sure that every TD gets multiple e-mails. In Laois/Offaly (my area) there are 5 TDs. I sent all of them an e-mail. 2 were FG, 2 were FF, and one SF. Their party does not bother me as long as they respond and/or act. I have begun to send to others and while i have no real idea as to where to start or who to send to i intend to keep sending them.

knockon

From Niall Collins TD Limerick - Fianna Fáil Justice Spokesman.
"Hi Knockon,
I'm fully aware of this issue as a concern to you and your colleagues.
I'm meeting next week with Des Crofton of the NARGC.
I can meet you at my clinic....etc"

Kieran O Donnell TD Limerick.

"I will meet you on Monday"

Limerick Sovereigns

Heckler wrote: »

And the answer will be.......Because some firearms used in some crimes were not recovered we can't tell if they were originally legally held but stolen. In other words we'll assume that most unrecovered firearms used in gun crime were legally held but stolen firearms.

This is why my question is specifically restricted to the number of guns that were actually recovered. Let's discuss these and avoid pointless discussion of hypothetical unrecovered weapons. If we get these figures I would be willing to bet that the number of legal pistols seized is close to zero. Shotguns might be a different story.

If they say that some recovered handguns have no serial number then we can ask for an audit of licensed pistols to show that none or very few are missing.

clivej

Well lads you can see the response to a thread I put to sign a petition here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057329459

1115 views and only 21 people to say they have done anything about signing it.

That's under 2% and that is the way it will go at best.

As always those doing the shouting will sit back on their backsides and let others do the action.

It will be the same 2% that will make any effort contact to their TD's as well.

Sorry state of a response

knockon

clivej wrote: »

Well lads you can see the response to a thread I put to sign a petition here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057329459

1115 views and only 21 people to say they have done anything about signing it.

That's under 20% and that is the way it will go at best.

As always those doing the shouting will sit back on their backsides and let others do the action.

It will be the same 20% that will make any effort contact to their TD's as well.

Sorry state of a response

I don't know about that Clivej.

I spoke to a chap yesterday who is on this forum and never posts here. He is doing untold work at present on our behalf. I am meeting up with a buddy today who with his 3 colleagues (all hunters and 1 target shooter) who read but don't post either. These 4 guys are all getting the petition signed and are sending in submissions also. Faith my friend....

clivej

knockon wrote: »

I don't know about that Clivej.

I spoke to a chap yesterday who is on this forum and never posts here. He is doing untold work at present on our behalf. I am meeting up with a buddy today who with his 3 colleagues (all hunters and 1 target shooter) who read but don't post either. These 4 guys are all getting the petition signed and are sending in submissions also. Faith my friend....

Good to hear knockon.
I have the faith but also I 'Feel the Force' is not with me. I would love to be proved so wrong.

yubabill1

I think what you need to "feel the force" is the IFA getting involved.

Witcher

clivej wrote: »

Well lads you can see the response to a thread I put to sign a petition here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057329459

1115 views and only 21 people to say they have done anything about signing it.

That's under 20% and that is the way it will go at best.

As always those doing the shouting will sit back on their backsides and let others do the action.

It will be the same 20% that will make any effort contact to their TD's as well.

Sorry state of a response

Just because people haven't posted doesn't mean they haven't signed it already.