Gardai proposals to ban firearms

nastros

A few clubs and groups are also putting in their own petitions as they are not part of sports coalition

Cass

clivej wrote: »

1115 views and only 21 people to say they have done anything about signing it.

That's under 20% and that is the way it will go at best.

At the risk of being pedantic it's 2%, not 20%. I don't say this to be smart, but it goes back to the well known fact (it's been said here, on ranges, and in every other issue relating to firearms) of the 2% rule:

One of the worst aspects of new legislation which further restricts an activity which arguably needed no such restrictions in the first place, is not something suffered from without, but from within. In sports administration, there are various forms known of the 2% rule, which states that 2% of the people do 98% of the work. Depending on the proclivities of the sport’s participants with regard to doing their bit for their fellow sportsmen, that rule varies from being shooting’s 2% rule to being anything as high as a 10% rule.

That aside, as lads have said above there will be a lot of work going on in the background. The 2% can still get it done, but it'd be nice to see a larger perceived effort. Also others groups are working their own petitions/avenues so while not everyone will post about it i think everyone realises how big this issue is.

Lotharmike

I have received numerous responses from TD's across the country here is the most recent
Padraig MacLochlainn <Padraig.MacLochlainn@oireachtas.ie>

A chara,

Thank you for contacting Sinn Féin on this issue.

We asked former Minister Shatter to outline his plans to us regarding the Firearms Licensing System and also if he would facilitate engagement with stakeholders prior to completing this initial review. I have attached the response below.

A Sinn Féin delegation met with Mr Des Crofton of the National Association of Regional Game Councils and Mr Michael Tope of the National Association of Sporting Rifle and Pistol Clubs recently to listen to their concerns.

Both men drew our attention to the fact that in their opinion there is serious maladministraion of the Firearms Licensing System with 93% of refusal cases ending up being overturned in court. We understand too that there are many issues relating to the restricted and non restricted lists of firearms as well as various issues around legal fees.

We have agreed to work with both organisations by submitting further questions to the Minister for Justice on the issues and we are also seeking to have the organisation brought in to present to the Justice Committe where they can outline their issues to all members.

We have also raised this issue with the current Minister for Justice and Equality Frances Fitzgerald and she has drawn our attention to the 'public consultation on a review of key issues in relation to the licensing of firearms in Ireland' currently taking part in her department, we encourage all interested parties to make submissions to this prior to the finalisation of the legislation - http://justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/WP14000322

Is mise,

Response to question [18978/14] by Alan Shatter TD - In light of public safety concerns highlighted by An Garda Síochána and difficulties in the interpretation of the legislation expressed by members of the judiciary, my Department is currently examining key policy, legislative, administrative and other issues relating to firearms licensing in conjunction with An Garda Síochána. I expect to receive and consider a report in relation to these matters within 2 months. When I have considered that report I will consider what further action is necessary in relation to the firearms licensing system, including the proposal from interest groups for an examination of relevant administrative issues by the Garda Inspectorate.
Officials of my Department met key interest groups in late 2013 and early 2014 who set out their concerns in relation to a range of issues regarding firearms licensing at that time. These interest groups have also communicated their views directly to me, as well as to all Oireachtas members.
Further consultation with relevant stakeholders will take place when I have considered the report and before any decisions are finalised in relation to proposals for change to the firearms licensing system.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn, TD
Donegal North East

Sinn Féin Spokesperson on Justice, Equality and Defence

Chairman of the Oireachtas Committee on Public Service Oversight and Petitions
Leinster House Office 01 6184061
Buncrana Constituency Office 07493 22697
Letterkenny Constituency Office 07491 26798

clivej

Cass wrote: »

At the risk of being pedantic it's 2%, not 20%. I don't say this to be smart, but it goes back to the well known fact (it's been said here, on ranges, and in every other issue relating to firearms) of the 2% rule:



That aside, as lads have said above there will be a lot of work going on in the background. The 2% can still get it done, but it'd be nice to see a larger perceived effort. Also others groups are working their own petitions/avenues so while not everyone will post about it i think everyone realises how big this issue is.

My error now corrected

Heckler

I signed but didn't post about it. Club is having a meeting next week where we'll all be signing. Printed out my own petition to get signatures. Lots of people read boards but don't post. I'd say support is bigger than what a thread on a forum might suggest.

Cass

clivej wrote: »

My error now corrected

Seriously lad, it was not meant as a correction. I seen how it could be as soon as i posted it. My point was not to correct your math, just highlight that this is an existing and long standing problem.

Even on the high end the majority will not be interested or motivated to do anything/more than send an e-mail.

Sending an e-mail is relatively simple enough so a good few will do it. However less will stay at it.

As for doing anything at all it might surprise some as to the number of people that will not have an interest or see this as affecting them. I have read all the posts from this thread about how everyone will/could be effected, but the simple truth is there is a set number of people that will not see any changes as a problem or simply won't care. Even at the possible loss of their firearm(s).

nastros

Slightly off topic but things like this http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/water-meter-installer-threatened-with-gun-firearm-later-found-in-river-651934.html probably not helpful to our cause.

Heckler

nastros wrote: »

Slightly off topic but things like this http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/water-meter-installer-threatened-with-gun-firearm-later-found-in-river-651934.html probably not helpful to our cause.

Saw that. Exactly the type of idiot that gives us all a bad name. Hope he gets the book thrown at him.

BattleCorp

clivej wrote: »

Well lads you can see the response to a thread I put to sign a petition here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057329459

1115 views and only 21 people to say they have done anything about signing it.

That's under 2% and that is the way it will go at best.

As always those doing the shouting will sit back on their backsides and let others do the action.

It will be the same 2% that will make any effort contact to their TD's as well.

Sorry state of a response

I've signed the petition and got friends and family to do the same. I just didn't say on your thread that I signed it.

I've got about 60 people to sign it so far.

SVI40

Clive,

Signed, and have 15 others so far signed. We may not be posting about it, but it's getting done. Hope to have a least 100+ before the end of the month.

Grizzly 45

Another thing; Open to correction by those more savvy in boards workings..When you view a thread here it is registerd as a view.I sometimes check back on a thread three or four times a day without posting,so you have to take into account that there are people like me comeing back to the thread to have a look or whatever and that is also giving a possible" false positive" reading

Tea drinker

nastros wrote: »

Slightly off topic but things like this http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/water-meter-installer-threatened-with-gun-firearm-later-found-in-river-651934.html probably not helpful to our cause.

yeah an absolute tard. Don't know what the gun thrown in river thing is, was he throwing away a legally held firearm or a illegal one?

Deaf git

So far I'm only getting generic responses back from TD's and nothing from local FG & Labour Td's. I genuinely fear that there won't be enough votes in this to get anything more than lip service from politicians. A Minister could think about steamroller negotiations without consequences.

I wonder if the recovered pistols match up with the stolen pistols (were any actually stolen)? E.g If evil Glocks were recovered but no evil Glocks stolen they couldn't be the same guns....

In the interim, shooting rep groups might consider requesting the Minister to direct AGS to administer the current legislation as is and cease operating on the basis of what might be legislated in the future.

Grizzly 45

Tea drinker wrote: »

yeah an absolute tard. Don't know what the gun thrown in river thing is, was he throwing away a legally held firearm or a illegal one?

It was an air rifle..Obviously if it went into the Fergus it wasnt very liscensed.:pac:

wonder if the recovered pistols match up with the stolen pistols (were any actually stolen)? E.g If evil Glocks were recovered but no evil Glocks stolen they couldn't be the same guns....

I wonder why all the bad evil Glocks that have been recovered here[in contrast to the GOOD evil Glocks liscensed by people],are never traced back to point of sale in the EU?? Even with their serial numbers erased ,which is pretty daft as most modern forensic methods can bring up the numbers clear as day if they have been obliberated off the surface.At least Scotland Yard,the BKA and the FBI labs can do this,so I'm just wondering is the AGS ballistics dept actually not fit for purpose too?
Or maybe it would be very embarrassing for certain EU govts to actually find out how sloppy their security was when a container load of these Glocks destined for a certain countries military police was driven out of a certain Euro port
and sold on the European black market about seven years ago?And loads of Irish criminals bought early and often.

yubabill1

Deaf git wrote: »

So far I'm only getting generic responses back from TD's and nothing from local FG & Labour Td's. I genuinely fear that there won't be enough votes in this to get anything more than lip service from politicians. A Minister could think about steamroller negotiations without consequences.

Don't worry, lad. Given the present political climate, this minister is not in a position to steamroller anything through. I doubt the government is in a position to pass too many more Dail votes.

Deaf git wrote: »

In the interim, shooting rep groups might consider requesting the Minister to direct AGS to administer the current legislation as is and cease operating on the basis of what might be legislated in the future.

AGS are well-known to be a law unto themselves. I think there might be a report or two on the subject out as we speak.

Grizzly 45

A bit of light heartnedness in the campaign always helps morale.

Intresting things you can find when you research and the stupidity of gun laws knows no bounds..:rolleyes:

This is an intresting one for the Olympic style pistols arguement of AG/DOJ.

Did you know that the Walther GSP .22 five shot pistol is actually banned certain American states??Why??Because they classify it as an "Assault weapon":eek:[Kind of a double adjective description there,but still..]
From wikipedia on the Walther GSP

Under the N.Y Safe Act the Walther GSP is now classified as an assault weapon under N.Y state law. It is also classified as an assault weapon under Chicago and Cook County laws due to The magazine being outside of the pistol grip.

So now,I guess we have given AGS a new category of pistol to worry about."The Olympic style assault pistol" :pac: Wonder how many of the approved list would fall foul of this law in those gun free paradises??

patsat

I was at the meeting in Harbour House on Monday and the way Des picked the document apart made me think now might be a good time to get media involved.

Any other time the media would use firearms as an easy target but with AGS and the government such easy targets at the moment they may very well focus and the badly written document as for once they are an easier target than us.

kay 9

Just seen this lads, don't be on here much of recent but I'm still an avid shooter. Can someone give me a link to the petition I read about somewhere and I'll hunt down some signatures. I've been protesting about water the last while and it's great what people power can achieve. If half of the licenced gun holders in Ireland protested I feel it would have a good outcome. Please no haters about the water protests, only used it as an example. Bigger scale I know, but water is a bigger subject.

clivej

kay 9 wrote: »

Just seen this lads, don't be on here much of recent but I'm still an avid shooter. Can someone give me a link to the petition I read about somewhere and I'll hunt down some signatures. I've been protesting about water the last while and it's great what people power can achieve. If half of the licenced gun holders in Ireland protested I feel it would have a good outcome. Please no haters about the water protests, only used it as an example. Bigger scale I know, but water is a bigger subject.

Here ya go

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057329459

hurlsey

patsat wrote: »

I was at the meeting in Harbour House on Monday and the way Des picked the document apart made me think now might be a good time to get media involved.

Any other time the media would use firearms as an easy target but with AGS and the government such easy targets at the moment they may very well focus and the badly written document as for once they are an easier target than us.

I'm not so sure pat, I agree the document is less than poorly written, its laughable imho, however I think that us taking apart the document in the media would be extremely difficult as it would have to get fair coverage. i.e. both sides of the argument presented in an unbiased, logical and reasoned manner(how many "ultra lethal black glocks of death" articles have we seen in Irish media?)

I don't honestly believe the rags in this country would give a fair account of the situation, if any of the articles I've seen in print media over the last decade are anything to go by....

On top of that, journalists, because of the nature of AGS, depend on AGS for a lot of their info when it comes to reporting on crime in this country. They would be staking a lot of capital on their future dealing with AGS on deriding AGS and the DOJ and the document in public!!

Note* to any member of AGS who is on this forum and an active sports shooter, I DO NOT have a problem with AGS as a whole, just the neolithic individuals in AGS/DOJ, their blatant anti-firearm/sports shooting agenda, and the fact they should really just collect their hat and coat on their way to the door!!!

Grizzly 45

FACT! Dealing with the media is a tricky enough on a subject like this needs a professional PR person to pitch,fend off and reply.Its not an easy job and going it alone can make an utter hames of it. You have no control on how it would be edited,formatted or copy written by the press.Pertinent parts may end up on the Editors floor or crossed out or worse taken out of context,or cherry picked to put us in a certain light ,usually bad.
The media is not our friend ,never was,they would be on it no doubt like flies on manure,but its for the potential "it could bleed ,so it leads."In a world where photos of some Americans celebs big arse is considerd "news"over in Ireland:rolleyes: What do you think some rag whose main contents are Scandal,clelebs,boobs ,war,sports would make of this?Trouble is if it is in a "respectable" paper the fish'n 'chips wrapper paper will cover it too as they are syndicated these days.

hurlsey

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

FACT! Dealing with the media is a tricky enough on a subject like this needs a professional PR person to pitch,fend off and reply.Its not an easy job and going it alone can make an utter hames of it. You have no control on how it would be edited,formatted or copy written by the press.Pertinent parts may end up on the Editors floor or crossed out or worse taken out of context,or cherry picked to put us in a certain light ,usually bad.
The media is not our friend ,never was,they would be on it no doubt like flies on manure,but its for the potential "it could bleed ,so it leads."In a world where photos of some Americans celebs big arse is considerd "news"over in Ireland:rolleyes: What do you think some rag whose main contents are Scandal,clelebs,boobs ,war,sports would make of this?Trouble is if it is in a "respectable" paper the fish'n 'chips wrapper paper will cover it too as they are syndicated these days.

While you bring up PR, has the sports coalition or any other of the shooting groups thought or acted on this, surely there is a bit of cash in the aul war chest for seems absolutely necessary, someone who has a relationship with the media? and has anyone contacted the IFA?, the banning of semi-automatic shotguns manufactured to hold more than three rounds, coupled with the "discretionary refusal powers" of the supers has got to be enough to get them on board??

wexfordman2

clivej wrote: »

Well lads you can see the response to a thread I put to sign a petition here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057329459

1115 views and only 21 people to say they have done anything about signing it.

That's under 2% and that is the way it will go at best.

As always those doing the shouting will sit back on their backsides and let others do the action.

It will be the same 2% that will make any effort contact to their TD's as well.

Sorry state of a response

I saw the thread and ssigned the petition, I just didn't post to the thread.

Zxthinger

hurlsey wrote: »

While you bring up PR, has the sports coalition or any other of the shooting groups thought or acted on this, surely there is a bit of cash in the aul war chest for seems absolutely necessary, someone who has a relationship with the media? and has anyone contacted the IFA?, the banning of semi-automatic shotguns manufactured to hold more than three rounds, coupled with the "discretionary refusal powers" of the supers has got to be enough to get them on board??

What's stopping you for doing it! Ye can't expect someone else to do it just because you think it's a good idea!

If ye smell gas ring bord gas! Don't assume someone else will!!

I'm following my own ideas of who to contact! I'm also trying to look after a family and fight water charges! So my plate is full!

hurlsey

Zxthinger wrote: »

What's stopping you for doing it! Ye can't expect someone else to do it just because you think it's a good idea!

If ye smell gas ring bord gas! Don't assume someone else will!!

I'm following my own ideas of who to contact! I'm also trying to look after a family and fight water charges! So my plate is full!

I have emailed the IFA outlining why I think they should be concerned about the proposals, aswell as emailing my 3 TDs, I have yet to receive a response from anybody!!

With regards the PR consultant, I don't have the means to hire one for the shooting community, that would have to be handled by the representative parties for our sport!!

Sparks

Sparks wrote: »

The point is that all the stuff from the first two paragraphs was not only trivially deniable ("No, I've asked him, he never said that")

Or, as it turns out, readily ignorable:

Wednesday, 19 November 2014

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
92. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality her views on correspondence (details supplied) regarding SHAM consultations; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [44543/14]

Frances Fitzgerald (Minister, Department of Justice and Equality; Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)

In light of public safety concerns highlighted by An Garda Síochána and difficulties in the interpretation of the legislation expressed by members of the judiciary, a joint Department of Justice and Equality/An Garda Síochána Working Group was established by my Department to review firearms licensing. The Report of this Working Group was published on 13 November and submissions on the Report have been sought from stakeholders and the public by 15 December. I have now agreed to a request to extend the deadline for receipt of submissions to 31 January, 2105. The consultation process gives individuals and groups an opportunity to contribute to the development of firearms policy and legislation and will enable consideration to be given to the future direction of such legislation.

The Garda Commissioner has made a decision, with Ministerial consent, to issue new Garda Guidelines on the Firearms Acts which exclude the former Annex F of the guidelines. The interpretation of the previous Annex F had caused serious difficulties and confusion in regard to applications for firearm certificates for .22 calibre handguns and has resulted in over 30 Judicial Review applications to date. The Commissioner made this decision to issue new Guidelines, without Annex F, on foot of consultations with the Attorney General’s Office (AGO) and Counsel for the State regarding Judicial Review applications on the licensing of .22 calibre handguns. There have been no changes to either primary or secondary legislation as a result of amending these guidelines. A more general revision of the Garda Guidelines will be carried out in light of the outcomes of the public consultation on the review of firearms licensing.

The amendment of the Guidelines has no implications in relation to the consultation process which I undertook to have in relation to the Review. I will not be making any final decisions until I have had a chance to consider all submissions which have been made.

(That now looks to be the standard form response now as well btw, it's come up verbatim in another dail question since)

Grizzly 45

Next two questions should br;
WHAT exactly are AGS "public saftey concerns" about the very people they vet and liscense who own less firearms than those illeglly held in the State?
and [2] Would the minister give us a statement in her own words,not a prepared PR statement from her spin doctors in her dept that informs of nothing?

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Next two questions should br;
WHAT exactly are AGS "public saftey concerns" about the very people they vet and liscense who own less firearms than those illeglly held in the State?

They've responded to that before, saying of course it's not us, it's those nasty bad guys out there who steal our airguns and use them to commit heinous crimes. Unless, that is, we commit suicide using our own firearms. But this new line they're taking on mass shootings puts a rather odd tinge on things. How exactly they plan to prevent the ERU from snapping and murdering half the latest graduating class of Gardai, I'm not sure, but those guys have fully automatic firearms that are far more destructive than anything in civilian hands, so I know where I'd be looking if that was a real concern...

and [2] Would the minister give us a statement in her own words,not a prepared PR statement from her spin doctors in her dept that informs of nothing?

She might, I mean, even Taoiseachs commit career suicide every so often...
...I just don't think it's likely, given that you've just described what it's her job as a politician to not do

yubabill1

Sparks wrote: »

But this new line they're taking on mass shootings puts a rather odd tinge on things. How exactly they plan to prevent the ERU from snapping and murdering half the latest graduating class of Gardai, I'm not sure, but those guys have fully automatic firearms that are far more destructive than anything in civilian hands, so I know where I'd be looking if that was a real concern...

The ERU and the Army have automatic weapons.

Of course, I know of no mass killings of the public by either, but I CAN confirm a string of suicides by soldiers with same weapons, including a lifelong friend of mine less than 5 years ago, who held his colleagues off with his issue weapon before turning it on himself.

But this argument will hold no water.

Today's opinion Red C poll shows FG and SF on 22% each (you can't compare this with the other recent poll giving SF 26% - different methodologies) and I'm noticing guys here saying they're getting no response from gov't TD's.

Putting 2 and 2 together, I smell a government in crisis, especially considering that the country's largest trade union, SIPTU has come out against water charges AFTER the new reduced charge announcement, nurses and midwives are refusing to pay increased capitation fees, TEEU and civil servants agitating for pay increases, while Enda thinks someone on the minimum wage is earning E34,000 pa.

They simply can't last. SIPTU are Labour's backbone and they've jumped ship.

Grizzly 45

Actually Yuba it is one of the elephants in the room that should be addressed.
Taking into consideration that over 95% of the statements on civillian gunowner ship of CF handguns [and semi rifles to a lesser extent] has had the AGS stating that these guns are only suitable for such professionally trained police officers and military personel and that "mere civillians" are wholly unsuited and incompetant to use them in a safe manner..
Maybe both need to have a good look in their mirrors over the last decade and compare the amout of ;

Mod edit: Grizz, whatever about the other points, which are fair enough, suicides are off limits from comment by both sides here. We wouldn't find it acceptable if the AGS wanted to ban firearms on the grounds that they might be used in suicide; it's equally unacceptable for us to look at AGS suicides. Apart from anything else, it's basic human decency.

Loss and theft of issued side arms by negligence of AGS/PDF personel including pepper sprays and batons from AGS last week in Jobstown according to todays independant.Whats next some scrote helps themselves to someones SIG in the next demo?

Incidents of misuse of AGS duty firearms in tense domestic situations?
Happens apprently quite a lot and is kept hushed up.Are these people removed from active firearms duty?If so for how long?Do they recive psychological assistance?

Its very unfortunate that we have to point this out to the PTB,but their records of negligent firearms handling of the kind they wish to deny us in the last decade is utterly and totally WOEFUL! <snip>