Gardai proposals to ban firearms

Grizzly 45

@ Trauma doc
Yes its in the ISD,mostly a rehash of what has been said in the NRGC press release and petition.

clivej

Please spread the word. It is essential that your submissions be sent to the Justice Committee. Please ensure all submissions to be cordial etc but firm. See below for details of email address. If you have already made a submission to the DOJ, simply send it to the below address as well.

IT IS CRUCIAL WE GET AS MANY SUBMISSIONS TO JUSTICE REVIEW BOARD AS POSSIBLE!

---

Fine Gael Press Office
David Stanton TD
Cork East
Monday, 1st December 2014

Justice Committee seeking submissions on review of firearms licensing – Stanton
Fine Gael TD for Cork East and Chair of the Oireachtas Justice Committee, David Stanton TD has welcomed the extension of the public consultation process for the review of firearms licensing. The Minister for Justice and Equality, Frances Fitzgerald TD has extended the deadline for submissions on firearms licensing following an appeal made by Deputy Stanton.
“Minister Fitzgerald published a review conducted by a working group of An Garda Síochána & the Department of Justice and Equality on firearms licensing on the 13th November. At that time she invited submissions from interested parties on the development of firearms policy and legislation to be made by early December.
“I was concerned that the timeframe for public consultation was too short so as Chair of the Justice Committee, I sought an extension to the deadline from Minister Fitzgerald. I am pleased that she has accepted the need to allow more time and the new deadline is now the 31st January 2015.
“In addition to the extension of the deadline, the Justice Committee is also now seeking written submissions from interested groups and individuals on the report. The Committee will consider these submissions and plans to invite a number of contributors to public hearings. We understand that there are differing perspectives on the holding of firearms and firearm licensing, and it is important that current licence holders, shooting clubs and members of the public are given a forum to articulate their views. We are looking forward to hearing from and engaging with the public on this issue.
“The review includes a number of recommendations such as changes to the list of offences which prohibit convicted persons from obtaining a firearms licence and possible restrictions on the licensing of handguns and semi-automatic shotguns and rifles. No decisions have been taken yet and I am anxious that none be made until a full consultation and discussion about the issues takes place.
“I would ask anyone with an interest in firearms licensing to go to http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/2014.WG.Report.pdf/Files/2014.WG.Report.pdf and read the Report on the Review of Firearms Legislation. Written submissions to the Justice Committee should be sent electronically by email before our deadline of 3pm on Friday 9th January 2015 to the following email address only firearmsreview@oireachtas.ie.”
ENDS
Contact:
Fine Gael Press Office
Aoife Carragher
01 618 4076

Bogwoppit

I've sent a response to the aboove email and to my local TD, it was just my own opinion though, do we have any proper wording from any of our organisations that we can copy/pasta?

bpb101

Bogwoppit wrote: »

I've sent a response to the aboove email and to my local TD, it was just my own opinion though, do we have any proper wording from any of our organisations that we can copy/pasta?

http://www.sportscoalition.org/petition/
click on the submission in the bottom right .
Tbh though id say your better going with your own

Bogwoppit

I wrote to my local TD today and in fairness to him he called me back this evening.
He was under the impression that the legislation was being put in place in order to remove about 160 assault rifle type weapons and that was it.
I asked him what an assault rifle type weapon was and he didn't know!

He said he was due to talk to a few people on our side as well as on the AGS side and would get back to me.

He did say that not everything in the proposal was likely to be passed.

SVI40

Bogwoppit wrote: »

I wrote to my local TD today and in fairness to him he called me back this evening.
He was under the impression that the legislation was being put in place in order to remove about 160 assault rifle type weapons and that was it.
I asked him what an assault rifle type weapon was and he didn't know!

He said he was due to talk to a few people on our side as well as on the AGS side and would get back to me.

He did say that not everything in the proposal was likely to be passed.

I do hope you educated him to the fact that there are no "assault type weapons" licenced either here or anywhere in the EU, or most of the world for that matter? Only 160 "assault type weapons" for a start, then only X amount of CF pistols, the .22 pistols, and soon, if this is passed, there will be nothing left. We must not allow this proposal to get past go!

We need to keep the pressure on, and not take our feet off the accelerator, until it is ended, and we get treated as we should. Law abiding citizens, who just want to enjoy our chosen sport.

gunhappy_ie

SVI40 wrote: »

I do hope you educated him to the fact that there are no "assault type weapons" licenced either here or anywhere in the EU, or most of the world for that matter? Only 160 "assault type weapons" for a start, then only X amount of CF pistols, the .22 pistols, and soon, if this is passed, there will be nothing left. We must not allow this proposal to get past go!

We need to keep the pressure on, and not take our feet off the accelerator, until it is ended, and we get treated as we should. Law abiding citizens, who just want to enjoy our chosen sport.

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yubabill1

Bogwoppit wrote: »

I wrote to my local TD today and in fairness to him he called me back this evening.
He was under the impression that the legislation was being put in place in order to remove about 160 assault rifle type weapons and that was it.

He did say that not everything in the proposal was likely to be passed.

Shows what the current thinking is on the other side.

This all stems from UN policy.

Malmstroms "consultation" last year, which ignored 99% of the 85,000 public submissions was motivated by UN policy against small arms - which started out to get rid of AK47's etc in public hands in places like Libya and so on, but which has squarely rounded on licensed firearms because it can "send a message"

TD's need to understand the onerous preconditions to owning a restricted firearm already in place and the small number licensed as a direct result since 2006/9.

they also need to know that Ireland is a stalking-horse for the introduction of "liberal" legislation in Europe due to

-a compliant population
-a party whip system of dysfunctional democracy, where members of parliament - nominally elected to represent their constituents who are also citizens, not subjects - are told how to vote in the Dail by their party

leading to guillotined debates and laws being passed "for our own good"

Zxthinger

Here is a link to the EU's guncontrol ambition and it looks like they wanted to ban everything tbh! So you can see how this nonsense has percolated to our shoars
http://www.all4shooters.com/en/home/other/law/2013-articles/EU-proposed-gun-ban/

yubabill1

Zxthinger wrote: »

Here is a link to the EU's guncontrol ambition and it looks like they wanted to ban everything tbh! So you can see how this nonsense has percolated to our shoars
http://www.all4shooters.com/en/home/other/law/2013-articles/EU-proposed-gun-ban/

H'mmm.......I don't see anything preventing our EU shooting friends rom making a submission to the Minister/ DoJ/Committee here....

yubabill1

I've been thinking about this for weeks, as have the rest of the shooting community, trying to make logical, sensible arguments to counter these proposals and I have come to one conclusion -

These proposals are the product of the considered opinion of the retired Garda Commissioner, Martin Callinan.

This, alone, is toxic enough to sink them in the eyes of the review committee and I urge anyone making a submission to said committee to mention the fact, but in a non-judgmental way (give a guy enough rope, type of thing).

If the process were limited to Crime 4/AGS and even the Minister, the toxicity would be immaterial, but before a cross-party committee of politicians the proposals will resonate with recent controversies if they are made aware of the retired Commissioner's input - the politicians will immediately associate the name Martin Callinan with very specific goings-on.

It is also notable that the present Commissioner has left no apparent imprint on the document.

Grizzly 45

Very good Yuba,now,can we prove it??:)

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Very good Yuba,now,can we prove it??:)

Yes, the Commissioner is mentioned several times in the proposals as "he"

I think we can safely assume who it is referring to.

Forensic proof not needed - it's enough to make the association, especially if several people send in submissions saying the same thing in different ways.

bpb101

yubabill1 wrote: »

Yes, the Commissioner is mentioned several times in the proposals as "he"

I think we can safely assume who it is referring to.

Forensic proof not needed - it's enough to make the association, especially if several people send in submissions saying the same thing in different ways.

also i doubt the new commissioner designed the report considering she wasent in the position when the report was published

Traumadoc

I was interested that the report stated that the issuing of reciepts would be an inordinate burden an that there was little or no delay in the processing of many license applications , and they have statistics to show this.


funny that the CSO dont even believe Garda figures ........

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/cso-may-delay-crime-figures-over-concerns-on-garda-data-1.2004644

Traumadoc

bpb101 wrote: »

also i doubt the new commissioner designed the report considering she wasent in the position when the report was published

She did write the report into the workings of the new applicaion process which does mention this review.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/GardaRpt2013.pdf/Files/GardaRpt2013.pdf

bpb101

Traumadoc wrote: »

I was interested that the report stated that the issuing of reciepts would be an inordinate burden an that there was little or no delay in the processing of many license applications , and they have statistics to show this.


funny that the CSO dont even believe Garda figures ........

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/cso-may-delay-crime-figures-over-concerns-on-garda-data-1.2004644

72.3 % of figures are made up, 31.4% of people know that

Zxthinger

Was this report thrown together by people that have absolutely no knowledge of ballistics?
It seem so!

Why would they propose several ballistic characteristics for the determination of suitability, pertaining to their interpretation, to licence a "weapon" and one of the characteristics is muzzle velocity? What's going on in their heads! Who has ever heard of restrictions being based on muzzle velocity?

Are we going to see all the 220 swifts, 22-250's and 204's being axed or harder to get!

I just need to put the maddnes of this one item up here for all to read again. Am I reading it right?
Is this a tacitly egregious & sinister tactic?

yubabill1

Zxthinger wrote: »

Was this report thrown together by people that have absolutely no knowledge of ballistics?
It seem so!

Why would they propose several ballistic characteristics for the determination of suitability, pertaining to their interpretation, to licence a "weapon" and one of the characteristics is muzzle velocity? What's going on in their heads! Who has ever heard of restrictions being based on muzzle velocity?

Mentioned that in my original submission post #319 here.

More important to discredit these proposals in their entirety by associating them with m callinan.

Zxthinger

Zxthinger wrote: »

Is this a tacitly egregious & sinister tactic?

Are they really that smart! I don't see it!

Yet the DOJ was smart enough to get a major shooting orginsation in Ireland to endorse their reloading pilot scheme thereby giving the beast validity and setting the stage for the intro of outrageous regulations when it wasn't really called for, they didn't even cite any examples of related crimes to justify their actions because the have the righteous endorsement of the elite! Lol

Will they again look for a scape-goat in the form of a stakeholder willing to accept some outrageous standard of control in order to keep some segment of their sport above ground!

We as a group and as individuals need to be aware of such tactics!

Maybe I'm thinking too deep here but there is a lot at stake!
It won't be long until the 22lr semi is also gone! Sure even the Garda guidelines currently, iirc, only give advise that 22lrs should be allowed to be semi's thereby really excluding 22wmrs.

Zxthinger

Btw I'm not saying reloaders were privy to the sinister ploy! ok

Traumadoc

Zxthinger wrote: »

Are they really that smart! I don't see it!

Yet the DOJ was smart enough to get a major shooting orginsation in Ireland to endorse their reloading pilot scheme thereby giving the beast validity and setting the stage for the intro of outrageous regulations when it wasn't really called for, they didn't even cite any examples of related crimes to justify their actions because the have the righteous endorsement of the elite! Lol

Will they again look for a scape-goat in the form of a stakeholder willing to accept some outrageous standard of control in order to keep some segment of their sport above ground!

We as a group and as individuals need to be aware of such tactics!

Maybe I'm think too deep here but there us a lot at stake!
It won't be long until the 22lr semi is also gone! Sure even the Garda guidelines currently, iirc, only give advise that 22lrs should be allowed to be semi's thereby really excluding 22wmrs.

given that they have used the mass shootings in Norway as a reason to ban Full bore semi autos, they could easily use the mass shooting in cumbria to ban bolt action 22s and double barrelled shotguns.

allthough givens Derick Birds background I would not be suprised if the UK authorities would try to keep it as quiet as possible.

Zxthinger

Traumadoc wrote: »

given that they have used the mass shootings in Norway as a reason to ban Full bore semi autos, they could easily use the mass shooting in cumbria to ban bolt action 22s and double barrelled shotguns.

allthough givens Derick Birds background I would not be suprised if the UK authorities would try to keep it as quiet as possible.

If I remember, at that unfortunate time, political Uk sentiment put emphasis on the inability of any legislative restriction that could have stopped such an event for ever happening!
In light of the calibre used (22lr) these sentiments were warranted. It's serves to highlight the insanity of targeting any single calibre or muzzle energy or god forbid, any specific muzzle velocity as a reason that might stop mass shootings

I feel like I'm crossing a line here by even talking about such distasteful stuff so if that sentiment is also held by the mods then please delete this post if ye think it's demonstrates no useful point in the 'great one sided debate '

Zxthinger

yubabill1 wrote: »

Mentioned that in my original submission post #319 here.

More important to discredit these proposals in their entirety by associating them with m callinan.

True! discreditation might work but no harm in death by a thousands cuts.

Both methods need to employed as you know he was in the clique and had an impervious water proof skin akin to that of a duck!

Remember what ever option you choose please remember to act now before we are all restricted to muzzle loaders for whom reloading will be a major problem. Lol

Sparks

Zxthinger wrote: »

Who has ever heard of restrictions being based on muzzle velocity?

Anyone who's shot at Bisley in the last decade or so. Idea came out of the UK MoD if I remember right and either the range had the limit (10,000fps) or it didn't get certified. I'd bet that's what inspired it. That, or not knowing the difference between muzzle energy and muzzle velocity.

Yet the DOJ was smart enough to get a major shooting orginsation in Ireland to endorse their reloading pilot scheme thereby giving the beast validity and setting the stage for the intro of outrageous regulations when it wasn't really called for

Seriously, this is getting very, very old. If the MNSCI hadn't put in to run a pilot scheme, you wouldn't have reloading as a possibility now. They'd just have banned it when they repealed the bits of the 2006 act that were going to introduce licences for it, and you'd be whining about how it's this totally safe thing that was unnecessarily banned. Instead, we have a foot jammed in the door, and you're complaining that not everyone is enjoying having the door slammed repeatedly on their foot.

It's downright stupid, is what it is.

Sparks

Well, I'd call this good news:

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
135. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if all stakeholders and representative organisations will be consulted in respect of the review of firearms legislation; the timeframe for the completion of this review; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [46712/14]

b]Frances Fitzgerald (Minister, Department of Justice and Equality; Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)[/b]

In light of public safety concerns highlighted by An Garda Síochána and difficulties in the interpretation of the legislation expressed by members of the judiciary, a joint Department of Justice and Equality/An Garda Síochána Working Group was established by my Department to review firearms licensing. The Report of this Working Group was published on 13 November and submissions on the Report have been sought from stakeholders andthe public by 31 January 2015. The consultation process gives individuals and groups an opportunity to contribute to the development of firearms policy and legislation and will enable consideration to be given to the future direction of such legislation.

I have already given a commitment that I will not make any decisions until I have had the opportunity to consider all the submissions which are made and I meet the key stakeholders, including the organisations who represent those who use firearms for sporting purposes. I would now urge all concerned to engage with this process so that the views of all concerned can be considered before decisions are made in relation to this matter.

There is no set time frame for completion of the review. The next steps will be considered after all submissions are received at the end of January.

Zxthinger

Sparks wrote: »

Anyone who's shot at Bisley in the last decade.

well not being a target shooter, I'm excused.!

Sparks wrote: »

Seriously, this is getting very, very old.

Ye seem to be reading into it too much! I'm not harping on about that to cause a fuse and cause an argument! I thought we were going to leave the bickering behind fir the sake of progress etc.TBH I've had those argument here and it achieved nothing so I'm not intent in pursuing the issues in spite of your interpretation!

Sparks wrote: »

It's downright stupid, is what it is.

So whats stupid? Flagging an established tactic! This whole diabolical proposal is a ruse to force appeasement via the conciliation process, which might be genuinely open to stakeholers or may just be a polictically cautioned decision taken by a lady drinking her morning coffee!
If private shooting organisations offer proposals of stringent regimes and standards so as to keep their specific discipline legal, then we could see a real prohibitive framwork in which only certain groups can conform!

Becareful what you ask because it looks like we will get some appeasement here! Well at least towards certain groups with the most say!

bpb101

Sparks wrote: »

Well, I'd call this good news:

After several years on boards and thousands of post i cant working quoting properly on boards however, clearly referring to the quote in your post sparks...

Its great that they at least saying they arent rushing things which clearly reflects the amount of emails that have been sent into them. I do hope that these all arent the same standard sports collision one but everybodys personal one.



Somebody mentioned a good bit ago that they might publish the names , and they were told that when writing that. I would actually love to see that. I think it would great to see the amount of people who sent into statments. A figure value can be easily put down

bpb101

Traumadoc wrote: »

She did write the report into the workings of the new applicaion process which does mention this review.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/GardaRpt2013.pdf/Files/GardaRpt2013.pdf

forgot to ask when i read this but what is a limited firearms cert . Is it halfway between restricted and a normal one?

Sparks

bpb101 wrote: »

Its great that they at least saying they arent rushing things

That's not how I read that. I read that as "feck's sakes, haven't we enough crap to worry about? Long-finger this and let it die in committee after the election". (Odds of this government making it to April 2016 are a bit slim right now... )