Gardai proposals to ban firearms

Wadi14

Right lads enough taking done, my first email to my local FG TD has been sent, take 5 mins out guys and send 1, every shooter send one now

Grizzly 45

LB6 wrote: »

http://www.nasrpc.ie/hot-news-1/informationevening-november17th

NASRPC will be holding an Information evening
for affiliated clubs and their members
in the Clubhouse, Harbour House Sports Club, Co. Kildare at
7PM the evening of Monday November 17th.
There, we will explain what the Sports Coalition is, why it is different from previous attempts at unity,
why it is so important and what it is doing on behalf of all license holders.
We will also outline what it is that we want you and your members to do to aid the Coalition in its efforts.

Please make all effort to attend

Anyone wanting a lift up to this in the Limerick area...Please PM me and we can car pool this.I can take six in my jeep.

Lotharmike

Wadi14 wrote: »

Right lads enough taking done, my first email to my local FG TD has been sent, take 5 mins out guys and send 1, every shooter send one now

Already done.One generic reply from Michael Noonan so far

Wadi14

Lotharmike wrote: »

Already done.One generic reply from Michael Noonan so far

that's what we want, keep it going the more sent the louder we get, lets be heard

richiedel123

Wadi14 wrote: »

that's what we want, keep it going the more sent the louder we get, lets be heard

3 sent off there now :-) let's await replies

cerastes

Deaf git wrote: »

The problem is the existence of some pigheaded individuals at a senior level in AGS. We all know the horror stories of given Supers in various districts- it's been going on for years. A senior Garda should learn from court decisions and alter his decision making accordingly- but some thicks are further blessed with arrogance.

The problem is further compounded by the very poor standard of politicians here. It's all about optics, I laugh & cry when I hear Kenny prattling on about 'green shoots' as if 200 billion euro sovereign debt is sustainable long term.

Its further compounded by sensationalist & partisan news media.

I think the solution is an open letter to the Taoiseach, Minister and Commissioner in the form of a paid advertisement in a prominent national newspaper. The open letter should appeal for justice, transparency, fair treatment etc. The letter can outline some of the treatment suffered by shooters- refer to the low points. Hopefully the political sharks will circle and be seen to be concerned about low standards in high office etc. The Minister might then engage and the rabid senior elements be brought to heel.

Who should draft & publish the letter? The ad should be paid for by contributions from the various shooting bodies. The letter should be drafted by a solicitor with contributions from a politically savvy pr type. Let the solicitor take the interviews that follow. The shooting bodies should remain shtum in public. They can kill or ride each other in private, so long as they agree to act in unison.

One thing is clear. All forms of shooting are at risk here, so NOBODY suggest throwing one group to the wolves.

This sounds like the best idea, but not alone.
I still think writing to/email TD's should be done too, but shouldnt it be an email to all TD's rather than just your local, otherwise the full weight of the message may not be gotten across, if all TD's were written by all involved, the full weight of a message might be gotten across better, dribs and drabs here and there might be easier to ignore or delete.
Along with the suggested article in a prominent national paper.

This is the first I'm reading of this, I'd be affected if what's put across is implemented, so I'm very concerned.
While I dont suggest a standard draft to send, anyone got an outline of what they are sending? I'd like mine to sound as polished as possible.
Although I might wait to see what the outcome of below is, as an NASRPC member. I know that I cant attend.

LB6 wrote: »

http://www.nasrpc.ie/hot-news-1/informationevening-november17th

NASRPC will be holding an Information evening
for affiliated clubs and their members
in the Clubhouse, Harbour House Sports Club, Co. Kildare at
7PM the evening of Monday November 17th.
There, we will explain what the Sports Coalition is, why it is different from previous attempts at unity,
why it is so important and what it is doing on behalf of all license holders.
We will also outline what it is that we want you and your members to do to aid the Coalition in its efforts.

Please make all effort to attend

knockon

Correspondence sent to Minister Noonan and Deputy Kieran O Donnell. Michael Noonan will not be running in the next election but Kieran will and he is left in no doubt my anger on this issue and repercussions for the Fine Gael party. I have spoken to an large group of family and extended family who have rowed in behind me on this issue. Sound advice from a lot of guys here. We'll do this with dignity and respect but by God also united, firm and decisive.

knockon

cerastes wrote: »

This sounds like the best idea, but not alone.
I still think writing to/email TD's should be done too, but shouldnt it be an email to all TD's rather than just your local, otherwise the full weight of the message may not be gotten across, if all TD's were written by all involved, the full weight of a message might be gotten across better, dribs and drabs here and there might be easier to ignore or delete.
Along with the suggested article in a prominent national paper.

This is the first I'm reading of this, I'd be affected if what's put across is implemented, so I'm very concerned.
While I dont suggest a standard draft to send, anyone got an outline of what they are sending? I'd like mine to sound as polished as possible.
Although I might wait to see what the outcome of below is, as an NASRPC member. I know that I cant attend.

One of my family who is not a gun sports enthusiast and has to listen to me for info made a suggestion that our national body could employ the services of a PR guru to educate "Joe Public" on the sport of Shooting and what we are all about. It has been mentioned numerous times when the public hear "guns" they don't really understand that there is also a sport in this.

meathstevie

Let's see, for those of us who fancy a quick follow up shot a semi is going to be far cheaper than a double rifle.

If anyone is convinced that the only semi auto center fire rifles in existence are mean looking pretend assault rifles a quick look at for example the Browning and Merkel websites will kick that idea to touch fairly quickly.

FISMA

If I were in the same position as ye, and indeed have been, I would do exactly what gun-owners in my neck of the woods (West of West Cork ) successfully did.

1) Get a post going whereby everyone lists their local official's name and number or email.

2) Next, everyone contacts all officials and expresses their concern as a gun owner.

3) Repeat #2 every day, if you can. Otherwise, as often as you can.

Good Luck Lads! If ye post some emails, I'll send a few my own!

yubabill1

knockon wrote: »

One of my family who is not a gun sports enthusiast and has to listen to me for info made a suggestion that our national body could employ the services of a PR guru to educate "Joe Public" on the sport of Shooting and what we are all about. It has been mentioned numerous times when the public hear "guns" they don't really understand that their is also a sport in this.

+1

Another resource we have looking us in the face is a smattering of clubhouses around the country.

We're better organised than we think.

In politician speak: Clubhouse = potential vote cluster (maybe I can get them a grant/they'll all vote for me).

Feeling harbour House will be packed Monday - will wander in at some stage - any politicians going to be there, does anyone know?

yubabill1

LIFFY FISHING wrote: »

Just to get a discussion going..
After reading the 64 page document from the DOJ in relation to the proposed amendment to the firearms act and legislation, & freely admitting that I own multiple firearms for hunting and target shooting..what possible reason would an individual have to licence a center fire semi automatic rifle?..

I stand corrected.... seemingly all be it not common or regularally shot there is such a competition.
They are not used in any capacity in target shooting.

You have fallen into the trap set by ASG/DoJ Public Consultation on this subject:
Many licence holders have demonstrated a good and sufficient reason to own these - some in a court of law.

We need to think outside of this box presented to us.

The time for fist-banging is gone, we need to employ opinion-formers: This is a consultation process - we know they intend to largely ignore us (c.f.; EU consultation on firearms last year with 85,000 responses, mostly from shooters who were just about 100% ignored) - so we need to come up with reasoned and reasonable arguments.

Maybe on the lines of

"We had a consultation between DoJ, AGS and shooting representatives over a period of (months/years?) only five years ago.....the first amendment since (1972?)...leading to an agreed Firearms Act Amendment/SI (insert proper names).....placing severe restrictions on firearms ownership including (thorough background checks/prohibited firearms/storage conditions/a 3 year re-application process..)....having the strictest licensing conditions in the EU by far, is a review necessary after only 5 years and why?"

I think the "why" is important - they have begun with an emotive argument (Dunblane, Norway, Sandy Hook) and we need to develop a counter-argument

Maybe something like:

"10 people were killed in a mass killing in Beijing last year involving knives - access to firearms is presently severely restricted in Ireland, including investigations into applicant's mental health blah, blah....."

"semi automatic weapons here have been restricted to 3 shots, with very few exceptions allowed in cases where applicants can demonstrate blah, blah ....."

and Spark's argument whether it is viable to legislate for something that happens in other jurisdictions

Also, if we could bring a cost into it - "AGS are already short of resources...overseeing magazine restrictions/ processing forms/ overseeing firearms surrenders.....ties up Garda already-stretched resources and budgets....or something"

Trying to flesh out some ideas in one place.

Can we stage a demonstration without being civilly disobedient? Say, we all apply at once to licence our mate's firearm?

pilatus

Done . Everyone on the Donegal list emailed . My brother is in the process of emailing them too . Thanks for the list grizz

Grizzly 45

Thing is however that every semi automatic shotgun sold in or imported into the ROI since year dot [1976 I guess] IS already restricted and SOLD out of the dealers as a three shot only.So what do they want an irish "to be sure to be sure" restricted 3shot shotgun???Which BTW is another farsical ignorance of modern guns or their modification capabilities..The mag tube on most guns is a freely available part and can be purchased or even made with no bother.It brings us back to the stupid .222 pistol mag arguement of "a ten shot mag is more dangerous,but two five shots taped end to end are less dangerous or its inconciveable anyone would do this with their Olympic style pistol if they were going on a shooting spree" logic.

More worrisome would be the classification of" Military or police shotgun"
Pretty much all "military or police shotguns" are civillian derivatives and have been so since the days of the gunslinger in the American West.Can think of at least a dozen brands off the top of my head since 1945 that have supplied police or militarys globally Again the Idontlikedelookodatnow!"clause raises its ugly head...But hey,instead of listing features or technical aspects lets go by "looks" BTW any of you who have custom grips made for your O/U like the UK Olympic trap DTL team,you'll all be nicked!! As they are protruding pistol grip stocks.Albeit costing about 2 grand each custom fitted to you,and not a cheap 90 euro plastic pistol gripped straight stocked on somones custom waterfowl or turkey shotgun..

yubabill1

yubabill1 wrote: »

Can we stage a demonstration without being civilly disobedient? Say, we all apply at once to licence our mate's firearm?

179,000 applications over 3 years is approx. 5,000 per month being currently processed.

If they received 15- 20,000 applications in one month, as a once-off what would happen?

Grizzly 45

Would certainly not do the PULSE system any good.:)
Things straining apprently with normal workload.

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Would certainly not do the PULSE system any good.:)
Things straining apprently with normal workload.

there are 564 garda stations according to here

So an average of 5000/564 = 8.86 applications per month per station

Turning that into 45 applications in one month is a helluva lot of keyboard tapping up and down the country.

Plus any glitches that might arise with those applications and those pesky shooters phoning up.....

clivej

LIFFY FISHING wrote: »

Just to get a discussion going..
After reading the 64 page document from the DOJ in relation to the proposed amendment to the firearms act and legislation, & freely admitting that I own multiple firearms for hunting and target shooting..what possible reason would an individual have to licence a center fire semi automatic rifle?..

I stand corrected.... seemingly all be it not common or regularally shot there is such a competition.
They are not used in any capacity in target shooting.

To expand on the OP I have a pump action shotgun that can hold 7 in the mag and one up the spout. Restricted to 3 at the mo.

Now the reasons that come to mind as to why I would want to apply for a restricted license for this SG would be:
Mult shots at vermin I.E rats
And target shooting at the international competitions that I go to. Where they shoot shotguns in T&P1, Multi-Target, 100y & 200y.

I think I may apply for a license ASAP before they ban them. :D

Grizzly 45

And target shooting at the international competitions that I go to. Where they shoot shotguns in T&P1, Multi-Target, 100y & 200y.

Yes indeed,somthing we are trying to get going here as well to justify restricted scatterguns.We need three or four more bods with restricted shotguns to orgnise a comp..Anyone else out there??:cool:

meathstevie

Although the idea of applying for a licence on another gun simultaneously on the one date by thousands of people has some merit it unfortunately will have most impact on the frontline lad/lassie who's got shag all to do with the carry on by grand lords of the Phoenix Park.

I for one am contacting local TD's this week and see what their take is. I'm not too hopeful about the government ones as they'll just go where the whip whacks them but the opposition ones may make a bit of hay out of this.

On a serious note, what do decent pr consultants cost ? Proper ones that is not shady snake oil merchants.

Sparks

meathstevie wrote: »

On a serious note, what do decent pr consultants cost ? Proper ones that is not shady snake oil merchants.

Communications clinic would be something around three grand a day or so and that's just for one person. Professional PR from consultancy firms requires a large budget.

yubabill1

Sparks wrote: »

Communications clinic would be something around three grand a day or so and that's just for one person. Professional PR from consultancy firms requires a large budget.

Lads, lads, lads........ye just don't get it. Small sigh.


They are several steps ahead of you. We are dealing with a machine here.


Look at the EU public consultation on firearms last year-

1.Present fully-formed proposals

2.Open public consultation on 1.

3.Promote all opinions received that agree with 1. thro' media cronies

4.Pay lip service to anyone who does not agree and push 1. to front

Makes everything look reasonable - they don't need FCP anymore, way too long and complicated.

We're walking right into this, lads.

hiddenmongoose

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

This whole system should be removed from AGS ,bar a backround and criminal check they should have no further part to play in this as it clearly obvious they cant handle it,are uttterly anti gun and paranoid about civillians owning anything more dangerous than a super soaker.Not to mind that they area political arm of the State,which NO police force should be either.
A competant civillian admin with knowledgeable people an efficent computor filing system ,clear and unambigious rules as to what you need to own a firearm of any particular type and you fulfilling the conditions should be under law an automatic SHALL ISSUE,isnt too much to ask for is it??

Best post iv read in a long long time.AGS should have no imput apart from the background check and security check in my opinion.They have proven themselves anti-gun, incompetent and untrustworthy letting personel opinions get in the way and regularly abuse their discretionary powers.
I am also not anti AGS before that is flung at me as the vast majority are hard working and dealing with a lack of funding and resources ,however management level AGS is rife with corruption from making decisions simply so their career wont get jeprodised or using their discretionary powers to further their own anti-gun opinions.Ags have shown themselves unfit for dealing with firearms licencing and not only should we be calling on our TDs about these guidlines and review but I believe we should be going the step further demanding that AGS is taken out of the loop except for the parts above mentioned as the have proven themselves time and time again unable to do the job

323

hiddenmongoose wrote: »

Best post iv read in a long long time.AGS should have no imput apart from the background check and security check in my opinion.They have proven themselves anti-gun, incompetent and untrustworthy letting personel opinions get in the way and regularly abuse their discretionary powers.
I am also not anti AGS before that is flung at me as the vast majority are hard working and dealing with a lack of funding and resources ,however management level AGS is rife with corruption from making decisions simply so their career wont get jeprodised or using their discretionary powers to further their own anti-gun opinions.Ags have shown themselves unfit for dealing with firearms licencing and not only should we be calling on our TDs about these guidlines and review but I believe we should be going the step further demanding that AGS is taken out of the loop except for the parts above mentioned as the have proven themselves time and time again unable to do the job

+1 as to Grizzly 45's post.

Far as I remember was there not talk about reducing AGS involvement in firearms licensing during the consultations the last time round 5/6 years ago?

Thanks Grizzly too for the list of TD's, terrible internet were I am ATM and was taking me forever to find them.

emails off to the ones in the North West.

Grizzly 45

323 wrote: »

+1 as to Grizzly 45's post.

Far as I remember was there not talk about reducing AGS involvement in firearms licensing during the consultations the last time round 5/6 years ago?

.

I belive a Superintendant actually suggested this at the beginning of the year in an article in the Indo...Which led to much huff and puffing in the editorial of the usual,"Blood on the streets,soon be like America ,Gardai doing a great job on this." Can anyone find it bechance?

hurlsey

http://www.thejournal.ie/government-considering-firearms-body-1518174-Jun2014/

Found this online, Maybe Ms Fitzgerald could be pushed into removing licencing from AGS altogether with a system similar to Germany as it is leagues ahead of our own!!

Deaf git

Why not use a Solicitor or Barrister as our public face? Preferably one familiar with the shenanigans of recent years. I've done the media training with a well known Irish company and it was good as far as it goes. But we are dealing with a legislation-based procedure so intimate knowledge of the law, precedents, natural justice etc is required.
I have respect for the various shooters who come forward and give their time to represent their particular corner of shooting sports as a whole. To use medical parlance, we need an eminent consultant working on this instead of an enthusiastic first aider.

I suspect removing AGS from the loop will be a bridge too far for us at this time- it would need legislative change and setting up an alternative admin system. What we need is sufficient pressure on the Minister & Commissioner to generate an internal memo that approximates to 'Lads, any more shag acting around with gun owners and I will kick you in the nuts'. I suspect a similiar memo went out about penalty points after revelations from whistle blowers.

I've had a sub 'lost' in the last few days- I don't think it's malice, I think it's incompetence plain & simple. But I sympathise with those who have been exposed to malicious behaviour and in some cases malicious barely describes it.

Sparks

Deaf git wrote: »

Why not use a Solicitor or Barrister as our public face?

Yes, because solicitors and barristers are well-known as being the most loved and trusted and respected members of Irish society by most voters.

hurlsey

Are there any members of AGS here? Surely with a force the size of AGS, there are some firearms owners who are directly affected by these new proposals?

BoatMad

I fully agree that a policy of informing and persuading TDs must begin, I have contacted mine. Equally The sporting bodies must push hard at ensuring the minister provides them with a proper consultative process.

Outside of that, there no much else can be done, writing emails that "denigrate the Gardai" or the AGS etc will get us nowhere.

Deaf git

Sparks wrote: »

Yes, because solicitors and barristers are well-known as being the most loved and trusted and respected members of Irish society by most voters.

Well, Irish voters give solicitors & barristers loads of 1st preferences at general elections.....so someone trusts & respects them..I daresay if you ever find yourself in a courtroom you will too!
I wouldn't care whether he/she was loved or otherwise. I would want someone with the technical knowledge and intimate knowledge of years of BS to take on a Minister or senior Garda in a media debate and argue our case in a dispassionate way.
I should point out I am not part of the legal profession, nor have I ever engaged a solicitor on a gun related issue. I know some shooters who have and they were very pleased with their advocates.

yubabill1

Deaf git wrote: »

Well, Irish voters give solicitors & barristers loads of 1st preferences at general elections.....so someone trusts & respects them..I daresay if you ever find yourself in a courtroom you will too!
I wouldn't care whether he/she was loved or otherwise. I would want someone with the technical knowledge and intimate knowledge of years of BS to take on a Minister or senior Garda in a media debate and argue our case in a dispassionate way.
I should point out I am not part of the legal profession, nor have I ever engaged a solicitor on a gun related issue. I know some shooters who have and they were very pleased with their advocates.

I would be happy if during this consultation, shooting organisations kept in mind the mores and manners used in the courtroom to good effect wrt firearms to date.

P.S. I will be emailing my local TD's after tomorrow night's meet, but I think we will need more than an email blizzard to beat this.

cw67irl

hurlsey wrote: »

Are there any members of AGS here? Surely with a force the size of AGS, there are some firearms owners who are directly affected by these new proposals?

That would involve considerable risk to the garda in question I would think. Could be tantamount to career suicide. I could be wrong but I can't see anyone taking it on

Wadi14

BoatMad wrote: »

I fully agree that a policy of informing and persuading TDs must begin, I have contacted mine. Equally The sporting bodies must push hard at ensuring the minister provides them with a proper consultative process.

Outside of that, there no much else can be done, writing emails that "denigrate the Gardai" or the AGS etc will get us nowhere.

(The sporting bodies) We shooters are not united as it stands, there are a number of groups not involved in the Sports Coalition.

Deaf git

yubabill1 wrote: »

I would be happy if during this consultation, shooting organisations kept in mind the mores and manners used in the courtroom to good effect wrt firearms to date.

P.S. I will be emailing my local TD's after tomorrow night's meet, but I think we will need more than an email blizzard to beat this.

And let's not forget the people who had the balls to engage the solicitors and barristers and put them in the courtroom.

3 generic email responses received from TD's so far...

Sparks

yubabill1 wrote: »

I would be happy if during this consultation, shooting organisations kept in mind the mores and manners used in the courtroom to good effect wrt firearms to date.

Might be an idea to keep in mind the long-term problems that particular approach has dumped on the heads of everyone around as well. Being a doormat won't work, but banging heads just to bang heads is even worse, especially when you remember that we are paying for both sides of the court case.

LB6

http://www.sportscoalition.org/

Date:



Dear Senator XXXXX,
Or
Dear Mr/Ms XXXXX TD,

By now you have received information from Mr Des Crofton, National Director of the NARGC and spokesperson for the Sports Coalition which represents most shooting interests in the state. Therefore, you should not be surprised that as a shooting person I am very angry with Fine Gael and Labour. The sports shooters of this country have been grossly wronged over a long period of time by the Gardai wilfully subverting the law in relation to the firearms licensing system at significant cost to the taxpayer of which I am one. But you know this already because you received a full briefing from Mr Crofton earlier in the year prior to his recent correspondence.

The facts are that the recommendations of the joint Garda Department of Justice review of firearms is poisoned, outrageously selective in its quoted references and is nothing more than a schedule of decisions which have already been taken. Copy correspondence from last August to the Minister makes that clear as does the row back on consultation. Consultation which is intended not to be meaningful is not consultation at all while an invitation to make submissions set against that background is the clearest indication that none of the people involved on the Department side have the courage to face Mr Crofton having been caught out in their dishonest little scheme. The Minister and Fine Gael with their Labour colleagues have much to answer.

There will be a briefing day in Buswells Hotel, Molesworth Street in Dublin next Thursday, November 20th, but while you should be there, I do not expect many or any Government TD’s to turn up because you couldn’t ever justify what is now happening to shooting people. The joint Garda/Department of Justice proposals are nothing more than a charter to legitimise the further abuse of sports shooters.

I have had all the sympathy I can handle from Fine Gael and Labour TD’s and none of it is of any use to me. What I want is your vote against the passage of these recommendations when they eventually make it into a Bill. Nothing less than this is required. I do not want parroted letters from the Minister repeating the message in her press release accompanying the report so please refrain from sending any such to me. If any of what is proposed gets enacted there will be no votes for Fine Gael or Labour in my house, rest assured of that and I will do all that I can to persuade a good deal of my friends to do likewise. Fine Gael and Labour have now become synonymous with U turns, shams, and lacking any morality at all. There is truly no accountability anymore and your party has brought this to a fine art.

I will have my say on ballot day.

Yours faithfully,

XXXXXXXX

Witcher

^^

You'd be better off writing your own letter than sending that mess. That's just a rant.

BoatMad

Yeah "excellant" letter

Let me paraphase

Dear TD or Senator, we like your help to combat "Gardai wilfully subverting the law in relation to the firearms licensing system at significant cost to the taxpayer " ( An issue Im not aware has ever gone to a legal judgement)

I like you to help us defeat this bill but by the way " Fine Gael and Labour have now become synonymous with U turns, shams, and lacking any morality at all"

first on, that a sure way to influence friends and impress enemies.

Its this type of idiot style protesting that just gets us ignored. This is not the IW issue. This is an issue where there is little sympathy or understanding amongst the public and politicians. Written verbiage just makes it worse

LB6

not mine lads - came/suggested by the nargc/nasrpc/ and all the others in the sport coalition

check out the link!

Witcher

LB6 wrote: »

not mine lads - came/suggested by the nargc/nasrpc/ and all the others in the sport coalition

check out the link!

Ah I know, I saw the link, wasn't an attack on you at all LB6

LB6

BoatMad wrote: »

Yeah "excellant" letter

Its this type of idiot style protesting that just gets us ignored. This is not the IW issue. This is an issue where there is little sympathy or understanding amongst the public and politicians. Written verbiage just makes it worse

Your sarcasm isn't lost on me at all.

You might tell Des Crofton then what you think of his letter!

Sparks

LB6 wrote: »

came/suggested by the nargc/nasrpc/ and all the others in the sport coalition

Yeah.

Forgive me if I don't want to take letter-writing advice from the authors of this kind of thing from back in August when all this hadn't yet been released:

Dear Minister,

...

I believe Minister that I am owed a full and frank explanation by you. The potential consequences of what I have disclosed to you in this correspondence are quite serious. At a minimum, it is abundantly clear that:
a. I and the people I represent have been shamefully mislead and that there is an intention to act dishonestly towards us.
b. That your word/commitment is worthless.
c. That you have mislead a great many members of Dail Eireann who made representations to you on our behalf in your written replies to them.
d. In misleading the aforementioned members of the Oireachtas, it is likely that you have also mislead the Dail as you made the same identical response on the floor of the Dail as you did in writing to your Oireachtas colleagues.
e. The review and promised consultation process is a sham and the credibility of your Department is fatally poisoned.
f. That these matters should arise in the aftermath of the conference on Garda Reform in Farmleigh which you hosted, and following the publication of the report into your own Department, indicates to me and those I represent that neither the Gardai nor officials in the Department of Justice have any intention of willingly reforming. You said in Farmleigh that you and the Cabinet wanted to make sure that the Gardai ‘got it’ in terms of understanding what it is that is required of them. It is clear that no one ‘gets it’.

It may very well be the case that you are not personally aware of the matters which I now put before you. If that is your response I am happy to accept your word on it. In the event that this may be your position, I am writing this letter to you under the protection of strict confidence and I can assure you that the information relating to the meeting of July 30th rests at this point with me alone. However, if it is the case that you were unaware, I would expect that you would wish to deal with this matter quickly and decisively. A clearing of the air is urgently required. The alternative is that matters will simply fester and escalate.

I trust we both can deal with these problems sensibly and avoid any escalation.

I can think of faster ways to turn a Minister against us than writing threatening stuff like that, but not without working at it.

Seriously, if this is the kind of thing that's being done "on our behalf", we're hosed before we start because one side's playing checkers while the other is playing chess.

BoatMad

LB6 wrote: »

Your sarcasm isn't lost on me at all.

You might tell Des Crofton then what you think of his letter!

I have no time for Mr Crofton, and you can see my posts on that. If I get a chance to see him, I will tell him. I do not support "some" of his methods.

I see no benefit in denigrating the Gardai or maligning politicians in an attempt to convince people of our point of view. We may win or we may loose this argument, I would prefer to loose with dignity and having the knowledge that we put up a fair fight, then even win on the back of scurrilous attacks on people and officers of this state.

yubabill1

Sparks wrote: »

I can think of faster ways to turn a Minister against us than writing threatening stuff like that, but not without working at it.

Seriously, if this is the kind of thing that's being done "on our behalf", we're hosed before we start because one side's playing checkers while the other is playing chess.

That's what I was angling at in my previous post.

Still, we might not like other people's methods, we are stronger together, even if only temporarily together.

We don't have to like each other to co-operate - I mean, Russia and the West got together for '39-'45 or so and achieved an objective before the Cold War.

I have a feeling it's time to put differences aside while we have bigger fish to fry.

Let's concentrate on getting organised - if you want to send an email, then send one:

but outline your concerns succinctly (they have other mail to read and the short-and-to-the-point messages have a better chance of getting fully read)

keep it simple

keep it honest

don't take cheap shots.

Sparks

yubabill1 wrote: »

I have a feeling it's time to put differences aside while we have bigger fish to fry.

I agree - I just don't think that means we need to row in behind someone and put them in charge in order to do it -- in fact I think if we do that, we lose pretty much instantly.
And the noises are already well underway to push that line, which only serves to splinter us all further. A wise person would just focus on the problem instead of on using the problem to increase their personal fiefdom at our expense. Not that I'm thinking of anyone specifically, of course, merely making a general hypothetical observation...

BoatMad

but outline your concerns succinctly (they have other mail to read and the short-and-to-the-point messages have a better chance of getting fully read)

keep it simple

keep it honest

don't take cheap shots.

Absolutely, thats what I did in my email to my TDs's. I was respectful, but outlined my case and asked them ,as my TDs to represent my view to Gov.

nothing is gained by denigrating the Gardai or TDs or the political system as a whole.

Grizzly 45

Seeing critiques are cheap...
I'd like to see some suggestions or draft letters from all concerned on " respectful and polite" letters being posted here on boards so we are all on the same hymn sheet and are not offending anyones sensibilities.
Over to you....

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Yeah.

Forgive me if I don't want to take letter-writing advice from the authors of this kind of thing from back in August when all this hadn't yet been released:


I can think of faster ways to turn a Minister against us than writing threatening stuff like that, but not without working at it.

Seriously, if this is the kind of thing that's being done "on our behalf", we're hosed before we start because one side's playing checkers while the other is playing chess.

AHEM...any chance of the FULL letter being published ??Not the redacted version with two paragraphs missing?? Blank out names by all means,but at least show the reasons why the guy is saying this..

.On other thoughts...
Anyone here a FACEBOOK/Twitter head??? It might be a plan too to get accounts up and running on both of these medias?

Just in from meeting one local TD from the opposition parties...They are already getting a good few emails in their in boxes about this and are wondering whats going on on a weekend about this issue.Told him this is just the beginning of it and it will increase to a torrent in the next few weeks.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

AHEM...any chance of the FULL letter being published ??Not the redacted version with two paragraphs missing?? Blank out names by all means,but at least show the reasons why the guy is saying this...

It's not redacted, the full version's been floating around out there for a while. The point is that all the stuff from the first two paragraphs was not only trivially deniable ("No, I've asked him, he never said that") but utterly overshadowed by those last paragraphs. They're what will have stayed with the Minister.